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rookie1
03-18-2005, 11:33 AM
Not meant to inspire any kind of debate But I thought this column was worth reading.

Second Global Warming Treaty Makes Less Sense Than First
Thursday, March 17, 2005
By Steven Milloy

Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz., suggested last week that it’s time for a second global warming treaty to reduce greenhouse gas emissions.

A new study out this week, however, seems to question the point of the existing global warming treaty.

Speaking before the Consumer Federation of America’s annual meeting on March 11, Sen. McCain said U.S. ratification of the Kyoto Protocol on Climate Change might not be a necessary step toward reducing greenhouse gases since the treaty exempted India and China from reducing emissions, according to the Capitol Hill newspaper Roll Call.

McCain then suggested, according to Roll Call, a second treaty that would “demand that India and China also join in [the effort to reduce greenhouse gas emissions.]”

McCain also urged greater pressure on U.S. businesses to reduce emissions. “The key to this is to convince business and industry that it's to their economic benefit to bring forward technologies ... to drastically reduce [greenhouse gases],” he said.

I would agree with Sen. McCain that there’s no need for the U.S. to ratify the Kyoto Protocol. Our rationales, of course, would differ.

The vast majority of the greenhouse gas effect — perhaps 99.7 percent — is beyond human control. There’s no direct evidence that the minuscule manmade contributions of greenhouse gases to the environment are having any measurable or significant impact on global climate.

In addition to the scientific shortcomings of global warming hysteria, the economic consequences of the Kyoto Protocol can be summed up as “all costs and no benefits.”

The global warming treaty is estimated to cost 100 trillion real dollars for the hypothetical prevention of a 1 degree Centigrade rise in the average global temperature.

In contrast, Sen. McCain’s complaint about the Kyoto Protocol apparently boils down solely to the treaty’s exclusion of developing nations like China and India, the second and sixth biggest greenhouse gas emitters.

Sen. McCain’s call for a new treaty to include China and India is ludicrous. Neither country will be able to develop economically without tremendous increases in energy use — that’s why they didn’t sign on to Kyoto. Keep in mind that one of the major reasons for the rise in gas prices over the last year is the increase in the demand for oil in China.

There’s also no meaningful way to enforce greenhouse gas limits in the developing world — although U.S. environmentalists often take advantage of our easy-access legal system to enforce U.S. environmental laws and regulations, no similar mechanisms exist in countries like China and India.

But all this talk about Kyoto and Son of Kyoto is somewhat beside the point, according to other recent news.

Climatologist Tom Wigley, a global warming disciple from the National Center for Atmospheric Research, reported in the journal Science this week that even if we could somehow magically “freeze” the atmospheric concentration of greenhouse gases at today’s levels — an unrealistic scenario where greenhouse gases are not added to or removed from the atmosphere — global warming would still occur because of the heat stored in the oceans.

Because the ocean responds relatively slowly to climate change, it will continue to contribute to global warming even if we do stabilize greenhouse gas levels in the atmosphere, according to Wigley. He estimates the ocean’s “warming commitment” to be 1 degree Centigrade by the year 2400.

Wigley further estimates that, even if we freeze greenhouse gas emissions at current levels — another unrealistic scenario — average global temperatures will rise between 2 degrees Centigrade to 6 degrees Centigrade by 2400.

But then Wigley disingenuously concludes that, “in order to stabilize global mean temperatures, we eventually need to reduce emission of greenhouse gases to well below present levels” — even though his own data purport to show that global warming would still occur even if we completely stopped emitting greenhouse gases.

Moreover, Wigley announced more than two years ago that no treaty was likely to stop climate change and that while renewable energy technologies are a possible solution, they don’t currently exist in any meaningful form and won’t anytime soon.

Though I have no confidence in Wigley and his crystal ball-like projections about our exceedingly complex climate system that neither he nor anyone else is close to understanding, the global warming lobby does believe and parrot Wigley’s predictions of gloom-and-doom.

And if Wigley is their man, then they’re stuck with his conclusions — namely that neither Kyoto nor Son of Kyoto will accomplish anything — other than, of course, driving the world, particularly developing countries, toward economic ruin.

hitchhiker
03-18-2005, 11:44 AM
Who Farted?

:D

blackf0rk
03-18-2005, 12:20 PM
Along the same lines as rookie1 posted, I'm not here to argue. But here's an interesting fact if you will, about global warming...

Take all of the emissions produced by all the cars IN HISTORY and you'll still not be able to equate it to just ONE volcanic eruption like Mt St Hellens.

In other words, the world as itself has been spewing "noxious fumes" and gasses that "men" have deamed "harmful" for thousands of years. The earth handles it, and handles it well.

However, the hole in the ozone is due to CFCs, WHICH is something entirely different.

rumble
03-18-2005, 08:17 PM
However, the hole in the ozone is due to CFCs, WHICH is something entirely different.

If I may respectfully disagree, much of that theory is in dispute.

"The evidence against chlorofluorocarbons is weak. The Montreal Protocol was an overreaction based on a public sentiment against the supposed ozone-destroyers. But the “ozone destroyers” have not had a major effect on the Antarctic ozone layer, and the hole there is can not cause much harm. No other hole could form because meteorological phenomena preclude that possibility. The purported evidence for the hole’s threat, skin cancer rates, is little effected by the ozone hole."

http://students.ou.edu/M/Daniel.S.Myers-1/CFCs.htm

Many stories like this have more than one side but as is often the case, only one side seems to
be widely reported. I have seen (right now I don't remember where) that
the ozone hole was larger in 1950 than in the 70's and 80's. If this in fact is true that would rule out CFC's causing the dire consequences that it is blamed for today.

hdwrench
03-18-2005, 08:31 PM
blah blah blah on the global warming


although after watching billy g-mans burn out video... im sure that didnt help the environment. :)

:beer:

blackf0rk
03-19-2005, 07:27 AM
Rumble,

Good point. There's so much propaganda these days it's tough to see who's really right and who's really wrong.

Man is definately ruining the environment - I think world can keep up. However, the hole in the ozone layer is real, and if it's not caused by CFC's, let say, then it's being caused by something :rolleyes:

I'm sure there's still a whole earth-sized library of information we're missing about our earth. Stuff we do and we shouldn't, stuff we don't do and we should. Good example, hundreds of years ago people didn't rid their excriment properly; they didn't know any better. Some of them buried it (which was the right thing to do) but many didn't head that adviced. - now look what we do with it. People back then had the same intelligence as us, they just didn't figure "everything" out yet. So I'm sure there's plenty we're, in our time, are still missing. :)



If I may respectfully disagree, much of that theory is in dispute.

"The evidence against chlorofluorocarbons is weak. The Montreal Protocol was an overreaction based on a public sentiment against the supposed ozone-destroyers. But the “ozone destroyers” have not had a major effect on the Antarctic ozone layer, and the hole there is can not cause much harm. No other hole could form because meteorological phenomena preclude that possibility. The purported evidence for the hole’s threat, skin cancer rates, is little effected by the ozone hole."

http://students.ou.edu/M/Daniel.S.Myers-1/CFCs.htm

Many stories like this have more than one side but as is often the case, only one side seems to
be widely reported. I have seen (right now I don't remember where) that
the ozone hole was larger in 1950 than in the 70's and 80's. If this in fact is true that would rule out CFC's causing the dire consequences that it is blamed for today.

rumble
03-20-2005, 12:58 PM
Rumble,

Good point. There's so much propaganda these days it's tough to see who's really right and who's really wrong.

Man is definately ruining the environment - I think world can keep up. However, the hole in the ozone layer is real, and if it's not caused by CFC's, let say, then it's being caused by something :rolleyes:

I'm sure there's still a whole earth-sized library of information we're missing about our earth. Stuff we do and we shouldn't, stuff we don't do and we should. Good example, hundreds of years ago people didn't rid their excriment properly; they didn't know any better. Some of them buried it (which was the right thing to do) but many didn't head that adviced. - now look what we do with it. People back then had the same intelligence as us, they just didn't figure "everything" out yet. So I'm sure there's plenty we're, in our time, are still missing. :)


Obviously I'm not an expert (didn't even stay at a Holiday express
last night) but I have definitely learned that political agenda plays
a big part in "science." I have also learned that what ever is on the traditional major news sources is most likely flawed. I too
think that the human population has had adverse effects on the environment, One case in point, the workers paradise of East Germany and other countries of the now defunct Soviet Union have some of the worst pollution problems on the globe. That said,
the case for global warming ignores a host of politically inconvenient points such as the area now known as the US was
warmer before 1500 AD than what it is now.

Your saying that we still have a lot to learn is right on the money.

Paul T. Casey
03-20-2005, 05:11 PM
Anyone measure how far from the sun we are nowadays? Maybe we're just getting closer.

Rob1559
03-20-2005, 06:14 PM
The Sun has been going through a period where it has actually been hotter according to information from NASA. That will explain Global Warming. In a way it also explains Solar System Warming.

duhtroll
03-20-2005, 08:26 PM
There's actually a website out there that plans to have 600 million people all jump at the same time so we can change the earth's orbit and make our climate better, increase daylight hours, and even make more women sleep with you.

OK not so much on that last one, but they're serious.

http://www.worldjumpday.org/



All I can say is . . . I'm amazed.

Someone probably got class credit for this. :rolleyes:


-A

Donny Carlson
03-20-2005, 08:43 PM
Who Farted?

:D
'twasn't me. :)

Though I do know a thing or two about green gasses.

What's that?

Green >house< gasses?

Nevermind!!