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View Full Version : Problem with MAF and JLT RAI



LVMarauder
03-20-2005, 06:16 PM
I put my RAI on about a month ago. Love it works and sounds awsome. Yesterday I drove back from UCSB to Vegas along I-15. I was crusing just under triple digits (90-95) with an occasionaly romp to 110 and one to 120 ( that was fun, and no one was around ,im not crazy) The car drove great. When i got into vegas i could feel some surging from the engine at idle and at load. Later that night the Check engine came on after a WOT. the codes that came up were 1000, 1233, and 0102. The last being the most critical.
1000- normal when u use the scanner. 1233- Normal when u use the scanner. 0102 is P0102 Mass Air Flow Sensor Circuit Low Frequency. I disconnected and reconnectd MAF, cleared codes. problem solved. I did a WOT this morning and the check engine light came on again, same code. why is my maf coming off at WOT and what can i do to fix it. Thanks.

Logan
03-20-2005, 07:02 PM
Sounds like your MAF is going bye bye. Replace it.

LVMarauder
03-20-2005, 08:46 PM
Is that possible. I'm going to check my TB becaue tonight the idle dropeed to 500 and was surging back and forth between 400-500 when i came to rest at a stop light. So it looks like when I adjusted my TB a month ago that it has come loose or my MAF is malfunctioning.

wchain
03-21-2005, 09:30 AM
You could either have a MAF on the way out, or the oil residue from the filter has deposited a film on the MAF sensors.

Get some Electronic Contact Cleaner from the Auto parts store or Radio Shack and spray it onto the fangs of the MAF, to ensure its not that. Have you checked to make sure your connections are tight? Also, you might be leaning out at WOT, sometimes the tune you have may not be adding enough fuel at WOT, causing the MAF voltage to read low, and throwing a code.

Any one or combination of the above will cause it. My first suspect is oily residue on the MAF fangs.....

Wes

LVMarauder
03-21-2005, 12:06 PM
Thanks Wes. Im about to go take the MAF off and start investigating. Ill also be checking out the TB. I've never heard of a MAF going bad before but the oil residue does make sense. I know my connections are tight and have been rechecked. As for the tune I've had the SCMT in here for a while and the last month with the RAI everything was fine.

LVMarauder
03-22-2005, 06:48 PM
Ok well i took the MAF off , cleaned it with contact electrical cleaner CAREFULLY (those wires are thin) and reinstalled. It helped but it didnt solve the problem. when i started it up it reved to 1900 as normal, fell slowly, stopped at about 800, surged between 800-850 for a bout 20 seconds then settled and was purring nicely. BUT when i tapped the gas the revs climbed to 1100, started to fall but then ROSE to 1400 for about 5 seconds and then came back to a normal idle. Another thing that its doing is when Im under acceleration and let off the gas the car abbruptly stops accelerating and you can feel a jolt.

I think my throttle body is sticking.... come to think of it I wouldnt be surprised if the oil ( there was alot of oil on the maf inside and out) and some dirt got to gether and are clumping on the inside of the buterfly.... im a genius... off goes the TB . If anyone has experienced this before or maybe knows whats going on i would greatly appricate it. Im just guessing here.

Directedby
03-22-2005, 06:56 PM
Does not sound like a mechanical problem, i.e. throttle body. Not a vacuum leak either (that would give you lower rpm's).

Sounds like your MAF is bad.

Good luck...



Ok well i took the MAF off , cleaned it with contact electrical cleaner CAREFULLY (those wires are thin) and reinstalled. It helped but it didnt solve the problem. when i started it up it reved to 1900 as normal, fell slowly, stopped at about 800, surged between 800-850 for a bout 20 seconds then settled and was purring nicely. BUT when i tapped the gas the revs climbed to 1100, started to fall but then ROSE to 1400 for about 5 seconds and then came back to a normal idle. Another thing that its doing is when Im under acceleration and let off the gas the car abbruptly stops accelerating and you can feel a jolt.

I think my throttle body is sticking.... come to think of it I wouldnt be surprised if the oil ( there was alot of oil on the maf inside and out) and some dirt got to gether and are clumping on the inside of the buterfly.... im a genius... off goes the TB . If anyone has experienced this before or maybe knows whats going on i would greatly appricate it. Im just guessing here.

torinodan
03-22-2005, 06:59 PM
What does it do without the A/C on. Without A/C or defrost on it might not do what your saying or as bad. Everytime I pulled my chip and put it back in the PCM had to relearn the Idle Air Control strategy. Mine would surge just like what your saying now.
The fix for me is to (if i pull the chip) start and let idle for 2 min, turn off for 1 min, start and put in gear for 2 min, turn off for 1 min, do the cycle over with defrost turned on but extend each run time to 4 min. Turn off, restart and go for a some stop and go driveing. It will fix itself if this is whats wrong. Now this is what I have to do everytime I pull my chip. It's being adaptive and fixes itself. Tell me if this helps. If I don't cycle the system like this mine will do the surge thing for at least 2 days. This takes about 40 minutes or so.

LVMarauder
03-22-2005, 07:01 PM
The TB was freaking dirty but thats 23k miles for ya. same exact start up and response to the gas pedal as before. Since everyone is telling me its the MAF is there any way to make 100% sure it is the maf before I go drop a few C-notes on a new one?

LVMarauder
03-22-2005, 07:11 PM
What does it do without the A/C on. Without A/C or defrost on it might not do what your saying or as bad. Everytime I pulled my chip and put it back in the PCM had to relearn the Idle Air Control strategy. Mine would surge just like what your saying now.
The fix for me is to (if i pull the chip) start and let idle for 2 min, turn off for 1 min, start and put in gear for 2 min, turn off for 1 min, do the cycle over with defrost turned on but extend each run time to 4 min. Turn off, restart and go for a some stop and go driveing. It will fix itself if this is whats wrong. Now this is what I have to do everytime I pull my chip. It's being adaptive and fixes itself. Tell me if this helps. If I don't cycle the system like this mine will do the surge thing for at least 2 days. This takes about 40 minutes or so.

Hmmmmmm, the plot thickens. So maybe its possible that I can reflash my PCM with my SCT handheld. I know what you mean about the fifth and fourth generations EEC with the auto fix. Im going to go and execute this procedure and see what it yeilds, Thanks Dan.

CBT
03-22-2005, 07:15 PM
Well brother keep us posted on what you find please.

jstevens
03-22-2005, 07:22 PM
I have the K & N.

When I left off the gas, I feel the jolt and de-acceleration too.
I believe they say with the CAI that it is more responsive. Maybe this is what they mean.

LVMarauder
03-22-2005, 07:35 PM
Ok ,well I thought Dan had a good idea about reflashing PCM. Well I put the stock tuning on and the "sway" in RPMs was even worse and lasted longer. It was going from about 500-900 for at least 30 seconds, after that strong steady idle at 800 when I am in park or neutral only. Is that important in figuring this out? In drive, 1 ,2 and R the idle dropped to just above 500 and was struggling to maintain. I doubt reinstalling the SCT tuning will do anything but im going to go put it back in . I havent taken it to the dealer yet because im not sure how they are going to like the JLT CAI just chillin in there.crap :bigcry:

rayjay
03-22-2005, 07:38 PM
The conditions you are describing are common symtoms of a over oiled air filter. This was a common problem on Focus' running a K&N or similiar permanent air filter. If enough oil gets into the MAF for long enough it can destroy it. Many people learned this the hard way. Pull the air filter and blot any excess oil with paper towels. Did you remove the TB when you cleaned it? You need to degunk the butterflys. When gunked up they will stick and usually cause a high idle. This was also a common problem with the billet performance TB on the Focus. I had to clean and lube mine about every three months. Did you pull the tune and reset the computer to see if the idle returns to normal?

rayjay
03-22-2005, 07:41 PM
Ok ,well I thought Dan had a good idea about reflashing PCM. Well I put the stock tuning on and the "sway" in RPMs was even worse and lasted longer. It was going from about 500-900 for at least 30 seconds, after that strong steady idle at 800 when I am in park or neutral only. Is that important in figuring this out? In drive, 1 ,2 and R the idle dropped to just above 500 and was struggling to maintain. I doubt reinstalling the SCT tuning will do anything but im going to go put it back in . I havent taken it to the dealer yet because im not sure how they are going to like the JLT CAI just chillin in there.crap :bigcry:
Unless you got rid of the stock airbox and tube, just put it back on before going to the dealer. They will claim the JLT caused the problem if it in there. You can take that to the bank...

LVMarauder
03-22-2005, 07:46 PM
I know they are going to tell me its the RAI , which it seems to be, the air filter anyway. Ok ,well im going to go pull everything from the TB to filter off and bring it in for an intense drying session. If its still not right after all of that and the SCT tuning in there I'll get a Pro-M and pray that works. Thank you everyone for your input and ideas.It has helped.

rayjay
03-22-2005, 07:52 PM
I know they are going to tell me its the RAI , which it seems to be, the air filter anyway. Ok ,well im going to go pull everything from the TB to filter off and bring it in for an intense drying session. If its still not right after all of that and the SCT tuning in there I'll get a Pro-M and pray that works. Thank you everyone for your input and ideas.It has helped.
If the air filter was still over oiled, it may have crudded up the MAF again. It really doesn't take much to cause a problem. Clean it again the same way you did before and let it dry over night. You may want to clean the air filter and reoil it. Just go light on the oil. -or- replace it. If you buy a new one, be sure to blot it. I've seen them way over oiled right from the factory.

LVMarauder
03-22-2005, 08:32 PM
I'v never had a MAF failure before but i guess this is what it looks like. The filter wasnt that oily but the area around the MAF plug was. I dried the entire RAI , used a isopropanol pen to clean the connector and the wires in the MAF. I'll do it again tomrrow but I doubt it will work, i think its ****ed. Not a good time for this as I just depleted my mod budget. any one want to start a thread/fund for getting me a new MAF? lol, I didnt think so. Pro-M here I come.

Directedby
03-22-2005, 08:42 PM
LV,

Pull the MAF off another Maruader and put it on yours.

Then you will know if it is the MAF.

Good luck,

LVMarauder
03-22-2005, 08:46 PM
LV,

Pull the MAF off another Maruader and put it on yours.

Then you will know if it is the MAF.

Good luck,

Good call,vegas marauders are about to get some PM's

Tucker
03-23-2005, 04:50 PM
One note, the filters I use are cotten pleated filters where K&N uses Ployester.
When the K&N's poly get hot is secreats the oil and the S&B's cotton will hold the oil. Just a FYI.

The oil you are seeing is from the PCV hook up. It will dump a large amount on oil in a hurry. If too much got on the MAF it "could" ruin it.

I would also try to get another to try and know for sure.
Keep us posted.
Jay

LVMarauder
03-23-2005, 05:08 PM
One note, the filters I use are cotten pleated filters where K&N uses Ployester.
When the K&N's poly get hot is secreats the oil and the S&B's cotton will hold the oil. Just a FYI.

The oil you are seeing is from the PCV hook up. It will dump a large amount on oil in a hurry. If too much got on the MAF it "could" ruin it.

I would also try to get another to try and know for sure.
Keep us posted.
Jay

Are you sure about that? I have documented this problem from its conception on I-15 north just getting into vegas after making multiple high speed runs in the desert. Now the month I had it on in santa barbara I was WOT enough but never got over 100 for an extended period of time, never had a problem. Seems to me when that engine got as hot as it did ,crusing at the rpms and speeds I was at, the oil heated up, became less viscus due to increased temp and made its way up into my maf. Thats how I see it "did" destroy my maf.

On a happier note I was able to get a stock maf for 185 overnighted before i go drag racing at the strip tomrrow. Some local speed shops wanted 386 , another merc dealer wanted 243 but the dealership that sold me the car gave it to me for 185 :burnout:

Tucker
03-24-2005, 04:39 AM
Are you sure about that? I have documented this problem from its conception on I-15 north just getting into vegas after making multiple high speed runs in the desert. Now the month I had it on in santa barbara I was WOT enough but never got over 100 for an extended period of time, never had a problem. Seems to me when that engine got as hot as it did ,crusing at the rpms and speeds I was at, the oil heated up, became less viscus due to increased temp and made its way up into my maf. Thats how I see it "did" destroy my maf.

On a happier note I was able to get a stock maf for 185 overnighted before i go drag racing at the strip tomrrow. Some local speed shops wanted 386 , another merc dealer wanted 243 but the dealership that sold me the car gave it to me for 185 :burnout:
Think of it this way. At 100mph there is so much air flow under your hood that the filter is not getting hot, it actually should be staying very close to ambiant air temp. It would be hotter sitting still.

Now think about the PCV system. At high speed and rpm major amounts of oil vapors are being recirculated, much more then at low speed. Then your on and off the throttle causing the oil vapors to get trapped and bounce around in the intake area, thus getting on the wires. Just a thought.

I hope the new MAF fixes the issue, but I can say with out question it wasn't the filter. Unless you had just oiled it and totally saturated it inside and out.
Jay:beer:

wchain
03-24-2005, 07:44 AM
Are you sure about that? I have documented this problem from its conception on I-15 north just getting into vegas after making multiple high speed runs in the desert. Now the month I had it on in santa barbara I was WOT enough but never got over 100 for an extended period of time, never had a problem. Seems to me when that engine got as hot as it did ,crusing at the rpms and speeds I was at, the oil heated up, became less viscus due to increased temp and made its way up into my maf. Thats how I see it "did" destroy my maf.

On a happier note I was able to get a stock maf for 185 overnighted before i go drag racing at the strip tomrrow. Some local speed shops wanted 386 , another merc dealer wanted 243 but the dealership that sold me the car gave it to me for 185 :burnout:


Why didnt you just put the stock air box assy back on, take it into the dealer and have it replaced under warranty??? :confused:

Directedby
03-24-2005, 11:25 AM
LV - Dennis Reinhart sells the SCT BIG AIR MAF for $185.

http://reinhartautomotive.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=12345&Product_Code=MM-SCT-MAFS&Category_Code=9

http://reinhartautomotive.com/Merchant2/graphics/00000001/SCT%20MAF%20Large.jpg



Are you sure about that? I have documented this problem from its conception on I-15 north just getting into vegas after making multiple high speed runs in the desert. Now the month I had it on in santa barbara I was WOT enough but never got over 100 for an extended period of time, never had a problem. Seems to me when that engine got as hot as it did ,crusing at the rpms and speeds I was at, the oil heated up, became less viscus due to increased temp and made its way up into my maf. Thats how I see it "did" destroy my maf.

On a happier note I was able to get a stock maf for 185 overnighted before i go drag racing at the strip tomrrow. Some local speed shops wanted 386 , another merc dealer wanted 243 but the dealership that sold me the car gave it to me for 185 :burnout:

LVMarauder
03-24-2005, 02:33 PM
It worked.

Directedby- Damn I wish you would have told me sooner, I went looking for an aftermarket here but no luck. and that part was overnighted from tennesse which isnt that much farther than flordia. O well im just glad im not throwing codes anymore.

Wes- Left the stock airbox and zip tube in santa barbara, didnt expect a MAF failure.

Tucker- I can see where your coming from ,Is our PCV open or closed ( open right?), and where is the valve? I never added extra oil to it, just outta the box and into the car. Regardless, its still a kick ass air intake. :beer: :rasta:

Svashtar
05-21-2005, 02:44 PM
LV - Dennis Reinhart sells the SCT BIG AIR MAF for $185.

http://reinhartautomotive.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=12345&Product_Code=MM-SCT-MAFS&Category_Code=9

http://reinhartautomotive.com/Merchant2/graphics/00000001/SCT%20MAF%20Large.jpg
Nice, but the price on the link shows $210 BTW.

Would the car tune have to be modified if this was added?

Tnx.

Norm

Marauder386
05-21-2005, 02:53 PM
I may just talk to Dennis on Monday....mee like-ums dat Big Air MAF... :D

:cool:

Blackened300a
05-21-2005, 05:40 PM
I have had the same exact problem with my Avalanche. My MAF wasnt holding the correct voltage. The Engine Idle would surge from 500 rpms which is really low then go up to 700 rpms. The Engine would also hesitate and even stalled on me twice. I took it to the Dealer and they had a hard time figuring it out Even with the Check engine light on. Just a drop of .002 volts would make the engine do screwy things, The dealer replaced the MAF and I never had a problem with it after that. I know it was a Chevy and we are talking about Fords here, But a MAF does the same exact function no matter what Make the Vehicle is. The MAF regulates the Fuel according to the amount of Air the engine is pulling in. I recommend Putting the Stock Air Box on and bringing it to the dealer. It will be covered and replaced. Hope this Helped

rayjay
05-21-2005, 08:53 PM
I may just talk to Dennis on Monday....mee like-ums dat Big Air MAF... :D

:cool:
Why will this work any better than the OEM?

SergntMac
05-22-2005, 08:03 AM
Why will this work any better than the OEM?
Slow down on this idea, gents, and consider this. The SCT "Big Air" is 90mm OD, your OEM is 80mm, which is approx. 4" OD vs 3.5" OD. You're going to need a few additional parts to fit the SCT in place, AND, you WILL need to get a retune no matter what tune you have in in place now. The wiring harness is a direct plug in, no sweat here. I'm not saying it's a bad idea, but it's not a "snap of the finger" mod. BTW, any of you ^ there considering the Pro-M, you know the company is out of business, yes?

metroplex
05-22-2005, 01:18 PM
K&N filters use cotton gauze.

http://www.knfilters.com/filtercharger.htm


Our high flow cotton gauze air filter is washable, reusable and built to last for the life of an engine. The filters consist of four to six sheets of cotton gauze layered between two sheets of aluminum wire mesh.

I'm not sure how the rumor about polyester vs cotton got started on the net.

BillyGman
05-22-2005, 03:23 PM
Slow down on this idea, gents, and consider this. The SCT "Big Air" is 90mm OD, your OEM is 80mm, which is approx. 4" OD vs 3.5" OD. You're going to need a few additional parts to fit the SCT in place, AND, you WILL need to get a retune no matter what tune you have in in place now. The wiring harness is a direct plug in, no sweat here. I'm not saying it's a bad idea, but it's not a "snap of the finger" mod. BTW, any of you ^ there considering the Pro-M, you know the company is out of business, yes?MAC brings up some good points here. And here's something else to consider.....

in the way of intake tubes, MASS air sensors, etc., etc.....bigger isn't always neccessarily better. For bigger to equate to better performance, there has to be a need for something bigger in the first place. What I mean is that there are many factory set-ups on various production cars that have their shortcomings when it comes to holding back performance. Often that's due to emission standards compliance issues, or simply other engineering considerations taking priority at the time of production. But you must first consider in this case IF the factory intake set-up on the Marauder is one of those shortcomings or not before you go and slap something BIGGER on there. I say that, because it's my understanding that the intake set-up on Marauders aren't the weakest link to begin with at all. And I can say for certain that there are other things such as the restrictive stock exhaust that hinder performance much more than the intake set-up does.

Ofcourse that comment might not apply to those of you who have already modified your Marauders in many other ways including the exhaust. But I hear of guys altering their intake systems on otherwise stock Marauders. Do you really know for sure that this is the weak link, or that it really causes an increase in performance due only to an "increased airflow"??? Are you certain that the only reason that you experienced some type of performance increase isn't merely because the intake modification that you've installed might be causing a leaner air/fuel ratio than the stock intake did?

When I was messing around with small block Chevy engines, I learned one thing about intake set-ups.... the bigger that you go with the intake diameters, the more air you can ram into the engine, but at the same time, the more you'll slow down the velocity of the intake flow. So that higher volume, but slower velocity can often cause a LOSS of power in the LOW RPM range, while increasing it in the high RPM range. And with a heavy small engined car like the Marauder is which already has a lack of power off the line, is that what you really want?

I'm simply bringing up some food for thought here. I haven't tried the products being discussed here, and since my stock intake set-up is doing just fine giving me 400 RWHP and a 12.0 ET with the supercharger installed, I doubt that I ever will try them. All is I'm pointing out here, is that just because you increase the VOLUME of air into the engine does NOT always mean that you'll experience better performance, since it's the intake air VELOCITY that's also important too. Especially for good throttle response at low RPM's. IF the stock Marauder intake isn't very restrictive the way it is, then you might not see the real performance gain that you're expecting with an aftermarket set-up UNLESS you've already modified your Marauder in a number of other ways also. All I'm saying is, that you should do your homework and consider what I'm saying.