Stage II/Dyno Stats on Pulleys and Plugs

[SergntMac]

First, a quick update;

I purchased my MM 18 Jul. '02, and enjoyed the s**t out of her, bone stock. I did not get a base dyno of my MM in bone stock trim before mods. However, I trust the dyno reports on a bone stock MM, as published by The Dyno Shop, Santee, CA. It's my understanding that this MM is owned by one of our members here, so, this data is good enough for me, as a starting point. Kindly note, it's data drawn from a friction dyno, which is typically not accurate or error free.

http://www.dynoperformance.com/search_details.php?ID=312

Bone stock 254 RWHP and 246 RWTQ, agreed? Good.

In November, '02, at my 3000 mile check, I decided it was time to make some changes. As I decided to mod my MM, I set a goal for myself, as well as set a few parameters to keep my lust in-check. This b**ch seduced me with a wink of her eye, she would not stop there and I had to protect myself, so..1) Goal set to move the 302HP/318 TQ factory flywheel performance numbers from the flywheel, to the rear wheels. 2) Keep mods bolt-on. 3) Keep mods affordable, maximum "bang for the buck" investment ratios. After all, I risk my life to make my money, why part with my dollars easily...4) Keep it maintainable, and repairable, over the long term. I haven't "owned" a car in 15 years thanks to decent leasing terms. But, I did promise "her" I would keep her around, so, I guess I married my MM, rather than just going steady. 5) Patronize only established business, and/or, vendors who provide acceptable customer support, i.e. those who I expect to still be in their business 10 years from today, who won't be quick to hang up on me. Cut out the web start-ups, and "salesmen," stick with wrenches and hands-on guys. Since I work with "facts" in my job, the "what-if" crowd can just shove it.

I decided Dennis Reinhart was the man to deal with.

In late November, '02, I began installing what we have come to call the "Stage I Reinhart kit," (our tag here, not his) consisting of 4:10 FMC Motorsport gear kit, two stage Delta Chip programmed by Reinhart, 180 degree FMC stat, and colder FMC plugs. All installs done by my LM dealer, union shop, official service records. I set out to investigate my decisions and confirm my performance "facts" with a number of dyno pulls, both friction and direct drive styles of this tool. I achieved the following results, and my out of pocket expense, including labor, was under 1500 bucks. Yes, your install labor may be cheaper, but you now have a "worst case" financial scenario to debate. I also paid 125. per dyno test hour, but that's not included here. Hopefully, (if I write this right) you won't have to pay that too. After Stage I was complete, I got;

266 RWHP, 285 RWTQ.
AFR reported as 14.94, and that's very lean.
0-60 MPH in 6.03, in .06 mile (from friction dyno)
0-120 MPH in 26.53 (from friction dyno)

Being very much pleased with these facts, I took the winter off.

In Feb, '03, I started my "Stage II" Reinhart mods (my tag, not his) consisting of Reinhart designed under drive pulley kit, Denso IT 20 plugs, Precision Industries "Stallion" Torque Converter, and Reinhart designed DynoTech Engineering drive shaft. First, the underdrive pulley kit results.

269 RWHP, 294 RWTQ
AFR reported as 14.13, which is better, but still lean.

Next, I installed the Denso IT 20 plugs.

273 RWHP, 301 RWTQ
AFR reported as 13.47, which is better still, but still too lean.


The Stallion torque converter and DynoTech Engineering drive shaft are being installed as you read this. I'll have more dyno "411" next week. I expect the total cost of my "Stage II" mods to stay under 2000 bucks.

It's my opinion that I got real good "bang for my buck" performance with my choices. Choices that may be even financially better for you, due to reduced labor. Everything I've done is bolt on, nothing permanently changes my Lady. Should she suddenly become a rare item in bone stock form, a few hours of undressing her is easy stuff. Therein lies my rub...Once she's rare, I should remember we are married, her real market value to me is enjoying her...and that is priceless. I do enjoy her.

Sorry for the length of this post, but I've done the investigation, bought the parts, paid the labor, and collected the data. The "facts" tell the story, I hope I have urged you all, to explore your Lady likewise. She will do it.

I'll be back next week with more mod facts, stay tuned.

Y'all be safe now, hear?

SergntMac@aol.com

PS. added after post.

BTW...One of our fellow members here, Vince Gortner, stopped by to visit while my Lady was up on the dyno. I don't expect him to verify the stats I got, but it was nice to meet up with him, and a HP Mustang owner from his Department.

Thanks, Vince, nice to meet you, and I hope you can join our Midwest group meet March 9th. WAGS, and Chapel1, meet Vince Gortner...Write me, Vince, for the details on the meet.

Y'all be safe...

[RF Overlord]

God DAMN Sarge, after Dennis you really ARE the MAN!

Lemme see if I understand this correctly: from just the underdrive pulleys and the Denso plugs, you gained 7 HP and 16 FT-LBs???

I want in...

[Directedby]

Awesome post.

[Beadhead]

Sarge, I'm looking forward to your upcoming post on the results from the TC. This boy's dithering over whether to lay out the green for one.

[BigMerc]

That Sarge post typifies why this forum is so important to all of the fellow owners and why the Sarge is "Da Man". I would never have modified my car at all if so many here had not done so and reported it. I want to do the Torque Converter thing and now that Sarge has done it, I'm sure the results will tell me if I should do it sooner, rather than later

[Black Badger]

Great report Sarge!





Originally posted by RF Overlord
God DAMN Sarge, after Dennis you really ARE the MAN!

Lemme see if I understand this correctly: from just the underdrive pulleys and the Denso plugs, you gained 7 HP and 16 FT-LBs???

I want in...


Yup... Pulleys help out a bit down low, and around town.


Here's a Dyno Pull (http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=563&highlight=underdrive+pulleys) after my install.

[WolfeBros]

Sarge,
Thank you for your reporting on your mods. I like the reasoning and your approach and I truly appreciate your sharing the info with the rest of us. Your one of the reasons this board is such a pleasure.
:banana2: :beer: :bows: :burnout:

[CRUZTAKER]

Thanks for sharing Sarge.

Now I AM jeolous..........dammit

[Donald]

Sarge,

Will your LM dealer cover a blown engine because they did the mods?

I have it first hand from LM that no mods are supported.

[SergntMac]

Originally posted by Donald
Sarge, Will your LM dealer cover a blown engine because they did the mods? I have it first hand from LM that no mods are supported.

Well, I thought this had been fairly well covered by this time, but I'll answer once again. Nothing I've done violates the integrity of the main drive line components. Should a serious failure occur, there would be a Q&A, I am sure, no one expects LM to fork up 7 large for a motor without some questions. However, LM would have to prove their case for denial, as much as I would have to prove mine. Since the overall car is not abused (it's actually babied) and the dealer's ASE certified wrench performed the mods, I would think that my risk is lower than one would expect. Moreover, every mod has it's up side in improving performance, gas mileage and reducing emissions, and backed by lab data to boot. Beyond that, Donald, it's as much a roll of the dice for me, as it is for you with no mods, and routine service records. A warranty is just a warranty, against defects in any product. It's not an insurance policy.

Thank you all for the compliments, I'm just trying to reduce the mystery in this for us all. If you don't want to take the risk, then don't.

[martyo]

Sarge: I have been following your posts carefully. First, to get the legal mumbo jumbo out of the way, as an attorney, I agree with your most recent posts re: the Warranty. The issues are always just a series of battles. I think everyone knows that the minute you start turning your own wrenches or have mods made to the "factory" product, you are taking a risk. Then again, the minute we wake up in the morning, we begin taking a series of risks.

That said, after a quick work related meeting this a.m. I am taking the rest of the day off to go to a local mustang shop. I have the Reinhart Stage 1 and Stage 2 parts (minus the T/C) already loaded in the backseat of my car. The shop is going to give me some dyno time (how much I am not sure). I would like to get a "base line" for the unmodified car and then at least one post-mod dyno pull. Anything that I should be looking for that will help me and the others on the board (I promise a full report tonight!).

P.S. Any comments on synthetic lube in the rear end (shop said it was my choice and would run about another $35.00 or so, which given the outlay to date seems insignificant if there is a benefit to be had).

[TAF]

looking forward to the next in-depth discription. Especially about the TC, of which has my interest. Thanks from me (and I'm sure ALL of us) for stepping up to the plate.

[CRUZTAKER]

Originally posted by Donald
Sarge,
Will your LM dealer cover a blown engine because they did the mods?
I have it first hand from LM that no mods are supported.

Boy, Sarge put it in perspective for you Donald. This is YOUR choice to do. The forum is there to assist you in making YOUR choice a reality.

My case: No dealer in Ohio will touch it. They don't need the headaches, they are running a business you know. Even the speed shops locally are reluctant. Even I AM reluctant. I have to drive this car EVERYDAY. No other options for me, economically:
I am stretched to the limit. Void my warranty and I am screwed.

Therefore, I did the chip plugs and therm, and am thrilled with the results. Easy to pull a chip if something goes wrong. (Which I highly doubt), with such an unintrusive mod.

I watch and learn from the Sarges of this forum, and, with watering lips and envy, wait for my 3yr./36,000 warranty to slip into never never land. Then, and only then, I AS AN INDIVIDUAL, will make the moves I have so long waited for. Besides, more time to save and buy the parts, and more time to see these guys ROAD TEST them for me.

Best part to this scenario: No one on this forum will flame me for my individuality...........:)

[mad man]

looking forward to meeting you and all the other mm owners on the 9 must say you have done your homework::rock:

[FordNut]

On syntheric gear lube:
That's a topic that hasn't been discussed in detail, however if we were in a race for pink slips and had to run identical equipment except for lube, I would make sure ALL my lubricants were synthetic. The price you were quoted sounds a bit high, if that's really what they want to charge you should buy your own lube and carry it in for them to use.

[mensrea]

When I first put in the PI TC, we used synthetic trans oil... and the thing locked and unlocked in a strange way. PI said that they designed my TC with stock oil in mind, and that the difference between stock and synthetic made a difference. We switched back to stock, and it appears to be better. I would check with PI to see if this still holds true.

[SergntMac]

Mensrea, I have, it's true. Uses factory fluid, Merkon V I believe.

[Billatpro]

OK, are we going to run Mac for "President" just think of what he would do to the presidential limo!!

Here's your first vote Mac.

[jgc61sr2002]

Bill I'll second that motion. John:up:

[MAD-3R]

Moved and seconded. All in Favor?

[Billatpro]

I

[LincMercLover]

I believe that's "aye"...

[Billatpro]

Damn KID's

[Vince Gortner]

Ooops. Walked away from the internet for a day and look what I missed!

If you haven't figured it out yet, the Sarge is a great guy. A genuine enthusiast and nice enough to shell out some $$$ to do***ent some of his work.

Quite a character too. The shop the Sarge landed at in Naperville never surfaced on my radar because I thought they dealt almost exclusively in rice-boy mods for the local Honda Civic crowd. That may have been the case, but the Sarge makes friends pretty quickly and these guys were definitely getting into it. Actually the Sarge can't take all the credit. Our MM's sound really sweet when they are working hard on the dyno, and maybe it just sounded so much better than the four-bangers these guys spend time on.

And really, the ricer crown isn't that much different from us. Different hardware, but (wings and mood lights excluded) pretty much the same goal: Be faster than the other guy. Turns out that these guys were watching Naperville PD's driver training activities very carefully to see what we were learning and what they could do to outdrive us if (when) it ever came to that. I got a big grin out of that. I like a challenge...

And, being good sports, they offered to do my 4:10's for me! Why not?

Great meeting you Sarge, and I look forward to meeting more of the Chicago MM crowd on the 9th! I should have my Stage I mods done by then.

[Fourth Horseman]

Originally posted by CRUZTAKER
My case: No dealer in Ohio will touch it. They don't need the headaches, they are running a business you know. Even the speed shops locally are reluctant. Even I AM reluctant. I have to drive this car EVERYDAY. No other options for me, economically:
I am stretched to the limit. Void my warranty and I am screwed.

I'm in the same situation, Cruz. My L/M dealer won't touch the mods, and my MM is my daily driver. I'm not nearly as rich as some of the folks around here, so the warranty is absolutely critical for me.

That said, I think I'm going to do the same as you: chip, plugs, stat, but I may go with the 4.10 gears, too. I doubt the service center would even notice if I brought the car in for work.

[89lxbill]

Sarg, you will enjoy the convertor. We installed all of your said mods to one of my customers Marauders (except the Denso plugs) and WOW! it made a world of difference. I will be going to VMP dragstrip tommorrow (weather permitting) and I will post the results. Our body shop manager has a lightly modded Mark VIII and he wants a shootout :)

[martyo]

Fourth: the service department is not likely to notice these mods unless he has driven the car "before" and "after." Then, you can;t help but notice them! What a difference!!

[SergntMac]

Originally posted by 89lxbill
Sarg, you will enjoy the convertor. We installed all of your said mods to one of my customers Marauders (except the Denso plugs) and WOW! it made a world of difference. I will be going to VMP dragstrip tommorrow (weather permitting) and I will post the results. Our body shop manager has a lightly modded Mark VIII and he wants a shootout :)

Don't skip the Densos, they delivered me 7 HP and 4 ftlb TQ, as well as droping my AFR down from 14.97 to 13.47. That's a lot from a set of spark plugs, and it come in where we need it, the lower RPM range!

The thing to keep in mind here, is that this motor came to us very well tuned, and the harder we push for HP and TQ improvement, the harder it will be to squeeze out better HP and TQ numbers. I'm about to hit the NA wall, not much left to tinker with, other than a cold air induction system.

Thanks for the back up, Vince, those kids were hungry for fresh meat. They must be getting bored racing each other...

[RF Overlord]

Sarge: :bows:

Do you have a part number/cost for the Dennis underdrives? They're not listed on his site yet...

Also, does Dennis sell the Denso plugs? The iridium ones on his site look like a Motorcraft part #...

Thanks... :bows:

[SergntMac]

Originally posted by RF Overlord
Sarge: :bows:

Do you have a part number/cost for the Dennis underdrives? They're not listed on his site yet. Also, does Dennis sell the Denso plugs? The iridium ones on his site look like a Motorcraft part #...Thanks... :bows:

I bought the Denso IT 20s and the pulley kit from Dennis, neither have a part number from him. I'd prefer to not quote prices on his behalf, but I comparasion shopped both products before ordering, and Dennnis is giving us MM.net members a discount, and sometimes, free shipping. It does add up.

[RF Overlord]

Understood, Sarge...

I just didn't see them on his site, and I know how busy he is, thought I'd save him the phone call...

Thank you, sir...

[Long Live #3]

I've got just one word, DAMN!!
:flamer: :burnout:

[tetsu]

Wow, nice additions Sarge. I think that TC is going to make
a huge difference for you.

I'm still undecided on doing any mechanicals on mine ATM. I'm
not sure I want to mess around until I'm ready to go for 12s.

It'll be interesting to see what you'll run with all that when spring comes.

April 5th, 2003, Free racing at Da Grove with paid spectator admission. :)

Johnny

[SergntMac]

Originally posted by tetsu
Wow, nice additions Sarge. I think that TC is going to make
a huge difference for you. I'm still undecided on doing any mechanicals on mine ATM. I'm not sure I want to mess around until I'm ready to go for 12s. It'll be interesting to see what you'll run with all that when spring comes. April 5th, 2003, Free racing at Da Grove with paid spectator admission. :) Johnny

Thanks, Johnny, and you're 100% right, the TC makes a BIG difference. Yo, y'all...early report.

Remember that first drive after your chip, or, gear, or both? Remember your "oh s**t!" and that deep pull from behind? Wanna feel it again? Get the Stallion Torque converter, it's all that and more on the launch. I have to say that this too, is a "must do" if you're performance minded, and that also means easier on the gas consumption. Our "customary" 20-25% drive line loss has got to be be down under 10% now, and the dyno will be telling.

I won't have any dyno numbers until middle of next week, and I haven't taken a long highway drive yet either, so, my "seat-of-the-pants" meter is still taking notes on things, like lock-up and stuff. I'll let y'all know more as soon as possible.

Johnny, you're driving down March 9th, eh? Yeah, I know it's a drive, but you'll enjoy yourself, and I'd like to buy you a beer.

I thin April 5th will be the first available track for us around here, I'll put it on the table at the March meeting, maybe we can make it anothe MM day...It's free...

Thanks again for the compliments, guys, I'm just trying to take the mystery out of this, for all of us.

[Vince Gortner]

Sarge,

Forgot to ask you when I saw you and I might as well ask in public. Any downside to the underdrive pulleys? Lower alternator output?

I remember you said that the alternator pulley does not get replaced because it was a factory press fit. How much slower does it turn now? My main concern is the capacity to run HVAC at idle for a while. I was going to throw a remote starter on my car, and I'd hate to have the car die or overheat after an extended idle.

Remote starts are great in the winter, but this is my 10th black car and let me just say that remote start and cold a/c is the way to go in the summer. HVAC is certainly a trivial concern as it has nothing to do with making the car go faster, but I like it. Cold.

BTW, I wrote Dennis today and he said he'd post info and prices for the pulleys in his forum soon. He shot me the price and it's not too bad at all. As long as I can go faster and have cold A/C.

[89lxbill]

Well folks, the shootout with the Lincoln will have to wait. Snow on the track in Petersburg :(

[Reaper948]

Originally posted by tetsu
Wow, nice additions Sarge. I think that TC is going to make
a huge difference for you.

It'll be interesting to see what you'll run with all that when spring comes.

Johnny

Ten bucks on Sarge runnin' high 13's

[martyo]

Well, last night was the first time that I had a chance to really "run" my car at night since I did the pulleys. The problem I was warned about, does occur. The lights will dim at idle and if you watch the voltmeter, you can see the voltage drop that occurs that with the headlights and fog lights, radio, and climate control on, the voltage drops a bit. This doesn't concern me much because as long as I run on the highway, or even drive at something faster than idle, the alternator is making full output. Note that I did NOT change the alternator pulley, I just did the crank and water pump pulleys that Dennis sells. The worst that is gonna happen is that the battery will get cranky earlier in life and may not live as long. I run a lot of automotive batteries under far more extreme and harsh cir***stances and they give me a reasonable enough service life, so I won't be worrying about this minor side effect of the pulley swap.

Anyone else have similar results or comments of any sort?

[SergntMac]

Originally posted by Vince Gortner
Sarge, forgot to ask you when I saw you and I might as well ask in public. Any downside to the underdrive pulleys? Lower alternator output? I remember you said that the alternator pulley does not get replaced because it was a factory press fit. How much slower does it turn now? My main concern is the capacity to run HVAC at idle for a while. I was going to throw a remote starter on my car, and I'd hate to have the car die or overheat after an extended idle. Remote starts are great in the winter, but this is my 10th black car and let me just say that remote start and cold a/c is the way to go in the summer. HVAC is certainly a trivial concern as it has nothing to do with making the car go faster, but I like it. Cold. BTW, I wrote Dennis today and he said he'd post info and prices for the pulleys in his forum soon. He shot me the price and it's not too bad at all. As long as I can go faster and have cold A/C.

Sorry for the slow reply, Vince, but I needed some time to make some evaluations. I see by other posts here, that the "problem" has been observed. I did kind of expect this, but wanted to check some other concerns too.

Actually, it's not really a problem, per se. The pulleys are surely worth the investment and DO produce valuable low end torque. However, at idle, with a load on the motor, like being in gear, the alternator voltage drops to 12v. It does so, because the idle is set too low, only 450-500 RPM under these conditions. Feather up to 7-800 rpm, it goes away.

This does cause a flicker in the head and dash lights, but that is minimal and not an indication of low alternator output, the motor is just idling too low. Spoke with Dennis last night about it, and he can change that in the chip, for those who are concerned, and who have his chip installed. He will make it an "option" for new chip buyers, same as the gear ratio/speedo option.

Vince, I don't see this being a problem for you with the A/C and auto start. Everything is fine when there is no load on the motor, and it looks easy to correct if there is.

With the factory torque converter, I didn't get any creep at dead stop, and I could launch really nice, and sneaky too. The sudden roar of WOT at the stop light makes an impression...LOL. But, now I got this Stallion TC, and now I have to brake at idle, even at 450-500 RPM. I'll probably update my chip, since I'm braking anyway.

[Vince Gortner]

Excellent. Thanks Sarge.

I can live with a little flicker at stoplights as long as I can leave the car running with no problems. That's gotta be a cop thing. I can't remember ever wanting to leave my car running with the a/c on before I got this job... Had better nutritional habits too, but ya know, I think donuts are just plain good no matter what you do for a living.

As much as I like that blower setup in the other thread, $5k is $5k. Your goal of 300 BHP at the wheels just doing less costly bolt-ons is not a bad strategy at all.

[SergntMac]

Vince...going back to GRD tomorrow (3/4) at 1 PM for the final wrap-up, drop by if you can, but don't expect to get away without a test drive.

[Vince Gortner]

Great! They were supposed to do my gears today, but had a sick call. My car might be there tomorrow too, but I'll definitely show up for this test.

And I know a couple good places nearby for (cough) pavement testing & evaluation...

These guys also said today that the NOS system would be a no-brainer to install. And they refill bottles there as fast as I can empty them. I might just have to do that against my better judgement.

[RF Overlord]

Originally posted by Vince Gortner
And they refill bottles there as fast as I can empty them.

Vince, I assume you MEANT to say as fast as your CAR empties them...

:lol: :burnout:

[Vince Gortner]

Took me a second there.....:confused:

Correct. I was thinking that all the nitrous I purchase would be consumed in an efficient internal combustion process to make the car go faster.

I have heard that there are other uses for nitrous that make you feel like you are going faster, even without involving a car, but I have no experience with that, nor was that my intent.

Thanks for pointing out this potentially misleading statement. Is that where you were going with that RF?

[RF Overlord]

Yes.

[LincMercLover]

^I love it when he's like that!^ :D
:lol:

[SergntMac]

I opened a new thread on suspension mods, may not be directly related to this thread, but I'm hoping y'all enjoy it.

http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1943