Turbo Ernie

[SergntMac]

A while back, I met another MM owner in my neighborhood, silver, and I have since forgotten the year/model number. Nice guy, a real gentleman, with plans to build his MM with turbocharging. We lost contact for a while, until he called me last night. His kit arrived, and he's going to install it this week, and try to make it to our chicken run on the 15th.

I stopped by his garage on the way home from work today and we talked about it. I'm not up to speed on turbocharging, but I get the general theory. This kit looks complete, but you won't know that until you install it. He said it was under 5K, and it is a kit made specifically for a Marauder.

He has a screen name here, Turbo Ernie, anyone want to guess his name?

I hope he checks in here and keeps us up to date with his build, and performance. If so, he may be the first turbocharged Marauder we will hear from. Frankly, I can't wait. The variety will be delicious.

[Rider90]

There is a Marauder Turbocharger kit out there, sold by atleast 3 different suppliers for very different prices (for example, Racer Walsh, http://racerwalsh.zoovy.com/product/0304MARAUDER has the most expensive) but I saw it as low as 4300 or 4100 IIRC...

I hope he makes it to the Chicken Run. Turbocharging is how I would like to do it if I had the money.

[Todd]

There is a Marauder Turbocharger kit out there, sold by atleast 3 different suppliers for very different prices (for example, Racer Walsh, http://racerwalsh.zoovy.com/product/0304MARAUDER has the most expensive) but I saw it as low as 4300 or 4100 IIRC...

I hope he makes it to the Chicken Run. Turbocharging is how I would like to do it if I had the money.

PTK regulates the price of their kits pretty closely.... The site you are talking about for $4100 (forced induction concepts I think) or so was a very old price they had. Trust me, I called about it.

I am very good friends with the owner of Racer Walsh. The price he is asking is the price from PTK without reflecting the current sale price on PTK's website. I know his profit margin on these kits. Trust me. You will not buy a kit for $4100 made by that company unless you eliminate many things from the kit.

[blackf0rk]

IMO, Racer Walsh's Turbo kit looks ugly:shake:

[SergntMac]

IMO, Racer Walsh's Turbo kit looks ugly:shake:
Somehow I just knew that kicking up the chat on turbocharging would bring out the best in us. LOL, gotta love this here information superhighway, any second now, another hit and run...

[MM03MOK]

He has a screen name here, Turbo Ernie, anyone want to guess his name?:wave: Ernie! :welcome: Nice talking to you today. Looking forward to hearing all about your project! :bunny:

[Todd]

IMO, Racer Walsh's Turbo kit looks ugly:shake:
That is a 'Pro Turbo Kit' kit....

There is only one company that makes turbo 'KITS' for the Marauder..........

[SergntMac]

Well, I'm down in my garage dumping my intercooler/coolant project, when who stops by with his pristine Cobra 'vert, but Ernie. What a sweet ride, this drop-top in white is awesome. We talk some more, his Marauder project is the PTK kit, bought directly from PTK, under 4800 bucks. There was a frustrating wait time of several months, but this can be expected when you're dealing with the "first" in anything. Ernie's still waiting on fuel injector retainers, but his project should take off this week. If he does this as well as he's built his Cobra, this will be one bad-azzed Marauder I wouldn't want to tangle with, street, or, strip.

Ernie again promised to check in here, and I 'fessed up about starting this thread too, so, turn it on, Ernie! Once he gets his e-mail addy and password conflicts ironed out, I expect we'll have one more MM owner who really knows his stuff helping us out here. BTW, I also found out who's been laying tracks in front of my house and doing low altitude "fly-bys" in the dark of night...

Dayum...It never ceases to amaze me how much owner talent and skill is drawn to this board, I think I've met Zack's lost brother!

[MikesMerc]

I think Turbo charging the MM is a great idea.

Most kits today have worked out a lot of the bugs that plagued "bolt on" kits of the past. In addition, the monsterous torque that turbos produce is something us "big car" guys need. Turbos are more difficult to install due to the plumbing and under hood heat issues, but, if done right, a turbo kit can be just the ticket.

Welcome aboard Ernie. I'll be looking foward to updates.

[rayjay]

How does the kit address the compression ratio of the engine? From what I've read in the past 8.5-1 is best for turbo charging.

[SergntMac]

How does the kit address the compression ratio of the engine? From what I've read in the past 8.5-1 is best for turbo charging.
It's my understanding from my brief discussions, that the kit comes configured for 6-8 pounds of boost, and safe on a bone stock engine. Of course, one should remember that every method, or, style of adding power diminishes longevity.

[martyo]

He has a screen name here, Turbo Ernie, anyone want to guess his name?

"Turbo" sure is a funny name for a mother to give to her son.

[Bradley G]

Do you think it may have had anything to do with the Delivery?:snare:
Bradley G
"Turbo" sure is a funny name for a mother to give to her son.

[jdando]

...Treading lightly.....



I looked at the "output" of the turbo kit, "Dyno Tested at 371 Horse Power and 471 Rear Wheel Torque at 7 psi of boost", and have a couple of questions.

The first is how/why does the turbo build the huge torque number? Second is it low down torque or up higher in the rpm range?

jeremy

[MikesMerc]

I can give you some "generalizations" regarding turbo power production based on my research (back when I was considering a turbo for my mustang).

In general, torque production will follow the original TQ curve of the stock engine (the "shape" of the curve will be similar which means power will be produced in approximately the same areas of the rpm range...but higher with the turbo). Do to "spool" up, your not going to see huge TQ production on the low end of the rpm range....though it will still see a nice improvement over stock.

The real secret to the turbo is using exhaust gasses to turn the impellor, rather than using a belt drive ala supercharger. What some folks fail to remember is that belt driven superchargers comsume a big chunk of power from the motor due to parasitic losses (the effort needed to turn the crank with the supercharger belt on). So, when tq/hp is measure with a blower, its always "net"...the power added by forced induction less the power consumed by running the blower.

Turbos are different. Using the exhaust gasses to turn the compressor does not result in parasitic power loss. Accordingly, this often results in bigger net power production over superchargers at similar boost.

In addition, depending on how the waste gate is configured, the size of the turbo, and a few other factors, "spool up" can be contained which also results in massive TQ pick up in the lower to mid range.

Bottom line...the lack of parasitic power loss and turbo spool up configuration accounts for the huge power (TQ) turbos can make.

Hope this helps!

[Bradley G]

Well said Mike!Is thier new technology with after market turbos that employ two turbos like is used on Fords 6.0L diesel? The smaller turbo to pre-charge boost, resulting in reduced lag?
Wasn't thier also an issue specifically with Turbocharging Marauders,that the exhaust had to be routed past the crossmember,which placed the exhaust plumbing Too low for practical use?
I love this site:pimp:
Bradley G

[jdando]

Thanks Mike;

I am with you on the parasitic losses, the numbers I have heard are up to 30%. I assume this has come down over the years.

I guess I am still confused as to the dissproportionate amount of torque. Looking at your numbers as a "typical" HP to torque ratio, the turbo system puts out a tremendous amount of torque for a good amount of HP.

I think my question can be restated as; Why does a turbo system have a higher Torque to HP ratio than a supercharged sytem?


Thanks,
jeremy

[THE_INTERCEPTOR]

I am anxious to find out what kind of numbers he'll be putting down once the Turbo is installed. I'll be following this thread closely. :)

Good luck, Ernie!

[cyclone03]

Thanks Mike;

I am with you on the parasitic losses, the numbers I have heard are up to 30%. I assume this has come down over the years.

I guess I am still confused as to the dissproportionate amount of torque. Looking at your numbers as a "typical" HP to torque ratio, the turbo system puts out a tremendous amount of torque for a good amount of HP.

I think my question can be restated as; Why does a turbo system have a higher Torque to HP ratio than a supercharged sytem?


Thanks,
jeremy

This will be a quickie because I'm at work now...


HP is a function of engine RPM.

I don't have the furmula off hand.

[MikesMerc]

I think my question can be restated as; Why does a turbo system have a higher Torque to HP ratio than a supercharged sytem?


Two reasons.

First, the power gains that can be had in the mid range (where TQ is at its peak) can be accomplished with much less boost because there is no parasitic power loss with a turbo. Accordingly, the peak HP numbers, which are strongly influenced by max boost pressure, are lower due to less peak boost.

Second, the size of the turbo effects spool up and power production....very similar to centrifugal belt driven blower. A turbo that is sized best for mid range power runs out of steam at higher rpms.

So, here you have a case where you have a modest 7 psi turbo producing awesome midrange (because the turbo size is small enough to spool up quickly and provide good boost at lower rpms, and you have no parasitic power loss which further increases your gains), but the turbo is sized such that it runs out of CFM capacity and boost falls off in the upper range resulting in less than perhaps expected max HP numbers.

It should be mentioned that turbos need not be this way. You can easily pick a larger turbo that doesn't "fall off" at the higher ranges. The problem with that, though, is that since the turbo is driven by exhuast gasses, you end up with bad turbo lag if the turbo is sized too large. That's why for most street applications, a smaller turbo is usually fitted for quick spool up and responsiveness on the street (even at the cost of some upper end power).

[MikesMerc]

Also, as Cyclone mentioned, HP is calculated from TQ production, so, in a way, they are always related the same way. TQ always equals HP at 5200 rpm.

However, I don't think that is what jdando was asking.

Instead, he is asking about the relationship of the "peak" numbers when referring to the relationship. And that is answered by where in the power curve the boost is (and how much), and that boils down to the size of the turbo.

[David Morton]

I worked for Buick in the early 90s and have driven the Grand National so I'm a big fan of turbocharging.

Lots of good stuff said here Ive been saying for the almost year I've been posting.

Here's the link to the Pro Turbo Kits site. (http://66.70.20.245/store/scripts/prodView.asp?idproduct=78)

It says it's using a Garret T64E that's capable of 700 hp so my guess is it's making this 471 ft. lbs. in the upper end of the rpm band, 4000-6000 ought to be getting the lions share of it.

And with the suck through MAF design and by-pass valve like the blower boys are using, it's said spool-up and lag are not bad at all. Here's a thread where we had a discussion about those very issues last week. (http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?t=17934&page=1&pp=15)

Turbos are the way to go if you're going drag racing, IMO. I'm getting one, God willing and the creek don't rise.

[KilledKenny]

Well said Mike!Is thier new technology with after market turbos that employ two turbos like is used on Fords 6.0L diesel? The smaller turbo to pre-charge boost, resulting in reduced lag?
Wasn't thier also an issue specifically with Turbocharging Marauders,that the exhaust had to be routed past the crossmember,which placed the exhaust plumbing Too low for practical use?
I love this site:pimp:
Bradley G
Just so everyone knows, the Ford 6.0DI Diesel uses what is called a VVG or variable vane geometry turbo. What this turbo has is vanes in the exhaust half of the turbo that change the blade pitch to reduce spool up lag. :)

[torinodan]

I know the sale has ended but we are talking about turbos, what do you think of this? http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=33615&item=7960967231&rd=1

[Bradley G]

Thanks KilledKenny, for that explaination.
Has the exhaust route been perfected?
Also thanks to David Morton for the link:P I was looking for that this morning!WTG
Bradley G



Just so everyone knows, the Ford 6.0DI Diesel uses what is called a VVG or variable vane geometry turbo. What this turbo has is vanes in the exhaust half of the turbo that change the blade pitch to reduce spool up lag. :)

[TopCat]

I'll be keeping an eye on this turbo thing. It would be a sweet set-up if it works out.

[ADE 1000]

Well said Mike!Is thier new technology with after market turbos that employ two turbos like is used on Fords 6.0L diesel? The smaller turbo to pre-charge boost, resulting in reduced lag?


The Powerstroke 6.0L only has a single turbo.

[Turbo Ernie]

:wave: Ernie! :welcome: Nice talking to you today. Looking forward to hearing all about your project! :bunny: You are a great guy! This man let me drive his ride and doesnt even know me, what a guy! I will be sure to return the favor. It will be done sooner than later.

[Rider90]

You are a great guy! This man let me drive his ride and doesnt even know me, what a guy! I will be sure to return the favor. It will be done sooner than later.
guy?? :baaa: :lol: nuh uh...

[Turbo Ernie]

Hi, I will let everyone know how it is going. I plan to start it this week and hope to have it done within two weeks doing it only after work. I'm sure it will run well, how well we will see... As far as the low hanging exhaust it is not that low, and I do not plan on going 4 wheeling with it. I think I can get away with loosing 2inches of clearence, but who knows... Thanks for your interest in this undertaking.

[Todd]

...Treading lightly.....



I looked at the "output" of the turbo kit, "Dyno Tested at 371 Horse Power and 471 Rear Wheel Torque at 7 psi of boost", and have a couple of questions.

The first is how/why does the turbo build the huge torque number? Second is it low down torque or up higher in the rpm range?

jeremy

Also,

The kit made 460hp and 520ft lbs of torque at 9 psi... That is with the stock t64 turbo.

[stevengerard]

Welcome and good luck hope to see you at the chicken run.

[Donny Carlson]

http://www.proturbokits.com/images/gallery/pics/mauraderengineshot.jpg

You can get, for extra cost (reasonable, too) polished intakes and tubing.

[Todd]

Here is a link to one dyno graph from the original PTK kit....


http://66.70.20.245/gallery/pic.asp?iCat=11&iPic=39&offset=9

[MM03MOK]

guy?? :baaa: :lol: nuh uh...I know. We got him flustered. :bunny: is a GRL! I get mistaken for Mac all the time. ;)

Check your private messages (PMs), Ernie.

[SergntMac]

You are a great guy! This man let me drive his ride and doesnt even know me, what a guy! I will be sure to return the favor. It will be done sooner than later.
ROTFLMAO! I am as confused as you, Ernie, but thanks for checking in with us here, and welcome to our Marauder home.

I should warn you, Ernie, there has been, and will be, a lot of turbocharging questions expecting answers, as this technology is applied to our Marauders. I hope you are up to this, and after meeting you face to face, I am sure you are.

BTW...It was my Marauder, the Kenny Brown supercharged #1x that you drove. "MM03MOK" is a board Administrator who "lives a few miles away" from us that you spoke with (over my phone) while I was busy "marking" your alley. Don't sweat this, Mary has driven my #1x OTR, and raced it at the IRP, so, confusion happens, we're used to it.

I'm glad you're finally with us, Ernie, and I hope to hear more from you. Please keep us posted, your "turbo" fans are hungry, and at the front gate, and seemingly ready to kick down some "power" doors...

[David Morton]

Here is a link to one dyno graph from the original PTK kit....


http://66.70.20.245/gallery/pic.asp?iCat=11&iPic=39&offset=9Thanks for this link Todd. It shows what my experiences driving the GN at Buick years ago have taught me and tells the tale of torque that drag racers have been taking advantage of for years now.

Notice how the curve hits a high level and continues to rise right up to the redline. A well designed turbocharger installation doesn't concern itself with bottom-end torque if such consideration sacrifices the top-end of the rpm band, and this graph shows this system has plenty of top-end torque capacity. If the T64-E is capable of 700 hp efficiency as I'm sure it is, this is only going to be the beginning of really finding out what our cars are capable of doing on the dragstrip when we take advantage of what the OHC design was originally invented for, diminish high rpm valvetrain float to free-up higher rpm operation, and use our higher rpm band, get the lions' share of the torque up there where we can use it for three gears, instead of what the superchargers offer, gobs of bottom-end torque that only has an advantage over the turbo for the first 4000 rpms of first gear only.

For light-to-light, 1/8 mile street racing and for raw driving-in-traffic power, this turbo kit probably is not what you want. But if your a drag-racer like me, or want to take it to the salt-flats and see what 200 mph feels like, the turbo is the only way to fly.