Killing my tranny?

[mrogerc]

I got my tranny fluid changed a couple weeks ago. Since then I have noticed an anomoly several times.

My torque converter is programmed to lock at 63mph and unlock at 54mph. When it unlocks and then I accelerate, the engine revs and the car does not accellerate--it is like the TQ is slipping excessively. I am going back to the shop that did the fluid change to ask them to check the fluid.

Any suggestions as to cause?

Also, I am planning to reprogram something closer to the factory lock schedule, so it will lock/unlock at lower speeds.

Make sense? :HELP!

[wchain]

Was it repalced with Mercon V? Was the filter replaced?

[mrogerc]

Yes and yes, at least that was the contention.

[blackf0rk]

You see, this is why I'm affraid of changing my tranny fluid - it seems everytime I hear of someone doing this it screws it up.

[SergntMac]

Many conditions can lead to your symptoms, I suggest you return to the point of your last service and get their opinion. There is a lot we don't know about your situation, I cannot see how brainstorming this among us will be of any help to you at the present time. Perhaps once you get their diagnosis, we'll have some suggestions?

For instance...
Could be low fluid
Could be the wrong fluid, there are several Mercons to pick from, only Mercon V is correct
Have you changed torque convertors?
Do you have a PI/Stallion TC?
Do you have any custom programming that affects transmission settings?
If so, and it's on a EEC chip, has the chip come loose?
Last but not least, this could be a hint that the OD band failure we are familiar with is showing it's presence, though it's been a while since we have had such a report.

Like I said, so much to pick from...

Keep us posted?

[wchain]

Mileage?

I know 4R70W and possibly 4R75Ws had issues with the EPC and the Wiring harness bulkhead, causing it to act funny. I see this in 98+ CVPIs all the time.

[mrogerc]

I went back to the shop. It appears likely they did not add the friction modifier to convert the fluid to Mercon V. I will see how it goes, if the tranny works better, I may just take it to the dealer and have them flush refill. If not, my blown car has a blown warrantee. I will likely go to a tranny shop.

Sound reasoning?

[RF Overlord]

It appears likely they did not add the friction modifier to convert the fluid to Mercon V.

My $0.02: take it somewhere else, preferably a place that understands the difference between real Mercon V and Dexron III/Mercon that has been "converted" with the addition of some miracle glop in a can...

Either go to the dealer or make the original shop replace ALL the fluid with REAL Mercon V...don't let them tell you their universal fluid/additive concoction is "just as good"...it's not.

[fastblackmerc]

My $0.02: take it somewhere else, preferably a place that understands the difference between real Mercon V and Dexron III/Mercon that has been "converted" with the addition of some miracle glop in a can...

Either go to the dealer or make the original shop replace ALL the fluid with REAL Mercon V...don't let them tell you their universal fluid/additive concoction is "just as good"...it's not.

What he ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ said. You might even want to bring your own fluid and watch them replace it. Bring the recipt and have them reimburse you for the fluid.

[JimmyXR7]

Either go to the dealer or make the original shop replace ALL the fluid with REAL Mercon V...don't let them tell you their universal fluid/additive concoction is "just as good"...it's not.I agree.
Fluid is cheap compared to a trans rebuild!
Tell that to the Trans shop!
Do they guarantee it - in writing!
Change it!
Jim
PS Stories like this is why I still do the work myself.

[jstevens]

Everyone,
I love the good information. I'm going in Thursday for my 30,000 service which includes the trans fluid change at Dorian Ford.

So if I understand RF Overlord correct, I should make sure they have the genuine Mercon-V. My car seems to do the same thing yours mrogerc is doing.

John

edited for spelling of mrogerc

[mrogerc]

Took my car out for a drive tonight, and the problems are gone, everything is back to normal.

However, if I can maket the time tomorrow, I will head to the ford dealership near my office and have them switch the fluid--they will probably think I am nuts to replace perfectly good looking fluid.

I have heard that the difference between Mercon III and Mercon V is, in fact, friction modifiers. However, I think I would feel better with all new fluid.

[mrogerc]

By the way, this is the stuff they added:

T3™ TOTAL TRANS TREATMENT™
Converts Dex II/III® into both Mercon V® and Highly Friction Modified replacement fluid, like 7176,+3 and +4. It Protects against heat, oxidation, wear and friction. Stops Leaks, plus conditions seals and gaskets to prevent future leaks.

Nothing against the product or the company that makes it, but I have an appointment at a dealer to replace with Mercon V in the morning.

[RF Overlord]

I have heard that the difference between Mercon III and Mercon V is, in fact, friction modifiers.That's part of it...another difference is that real Mercon V is a synthetic blend, to resist oxidation better, which is just as important as having the proper friction coefficient. Trying to make a "DIY" Mercon V out of a non-synthetic base oil is asking for trouble.

[Glenn]

I can honestly say that I am forever thankful for Todd sterring me to Team Ford in ATL. I have had a bunch of mods done, engine oil and transmission fuild changed, rear rebuilt, axles replaced, etc., etc.. NEVER a problem! Thank you Team Ford. A good Ford dealer with Ford Master Mechanics are hard to beat.

Glenn

[TAF]

I can honestly say that I am forever thankful for Todd sterring me to Team Ford in ATL. I have had a bunch of mods done, engine oil and transmission fuild changed, rear rebuilt, axles replaced, etc., etc.. NEVER a problem! Thank you Team Ford. A good Ford dealer with Ford Master Mechanics are hard to beat.

Glenn
You're welcome Glenn, my friend. Stop by and see me at the (my) shop when you get a chance.....

[04funmerc]

That's part of it...another difference is that real Mercon V is a synthetic blend, to resist oxidation better, which is just as important as having the proper friction coefficient. Trying to make a "DIY" Mercon V out of a non-synthetic base oil is asking for trouble.
Does Amsoil or RedLine have the modifier in them or do you have to add the friction modifer?? If you have to add, I think I'll just stay with the Mercon - V.

JIM

[mrogerc]

Well, things took a turn for the worse today: No third gear and up. I took it to the dealer who is doing diagnostics.

Their service manager told me that even if the wrong transmission fluid was put in, he thought it very unlikely that would have been the cause of the problem in such a short amount of time.

I will get the results of the diagnostic today or tomorrow. If my tranny needs a rebuild, what would the advice be:

--Have the dealer do it stock?

--Get a "built" tranny from somewhere? And Where?

--Go stock, but with a torque converter?

Thanks

[svtguy]

Their service manager told me that even if the wrong transmission fluid was put in, he thought it very unlikely that would have been the cause of the problem in such a short amount of time.

What a shock. :censor: dealerships.
I hope everything works out for you and they do the right thing. Sounds like you may have a case and a fight on your hands.

[HookedOnCV]

Well, things took a turn for the worse today: No third gear and up. I took it to the dealer who is doing diagnostics.

Their service manager told me that even if the wrong transmission fluid was put in, he thought it very unlikely that would have been the cause of the problem in such a short amount of time.

I will get the results of the diagnostic today or tomorrow. If my tranny needs a rebuild, what would the advice be:

--Have the dealer do it stock?

--Get a "built" tranny from somewhere? And Where?

--Go stock, but with a torque converter?

Thanks

Mike, if it is going to be opened up for a rebuild, take a look at replacing the infamous snap ring behind the pump with a spiral lock one. Also, if you don't want to install an aftermarket torque converter, you can have a new Marauder converter "built up" to handle the additional power like I did. I still have mine on the shelf waiting to be installed along with the spiral lock snap rings when they arrive this week.

You can PM me for more details. I have a new work phone number and old cell phone number is history so if you want to talk, PM'ing me is your bet and I'll give you a call.

Todd

[MENINBLK]

Mercon Oil is made from Dino Oil...
Mercon V is Synthetic Oil.

I don't know what Snake Oil you guys have been using, but once Oil
comes from a Dino, only Jesus himself can convert it into Synthetic Oil...

Have your tranny COMPLETELY FLUSHED with Mercon V at your Dealership,
YESTERDAY !!!
There are PLASTIC PARTS inside your tranny that Dino Oil will dry out and destroy.

[mrogerc]

The dealer doing the work now is a different shop than the one that did the fluid change, so I do not think they have any interest in minimizing the problem.

Got an update. A tech took the tranny pan off, and found lots of broken stuff at the bottom of it. He said whatever happened, happened fast! I will have more information in the next two days about the cause and the repair.

Right now, my baby's torn apart......

[mrogerc]

New Update:

According to the tech, what broke was the "direct clutch" which was to be destroyed by heat. He also is replacing the "one way clutch" which was likely damaged by the heat.

No direct opinion about cause, although incorrect fluid was not considered at all likely.

So, what was the cause? Please share your ideas and thoughts re:

1) Lack of the "Spiral Lock Clip." The tech talked to someone who races Fords. This was the only mod he suggested. Was this failure consistent with this problem?

2) Careless 4-2 shift. I have forgotten many times to take the tranny out of overdrive before hitting the accellerator hard in 4th. I have heard that can hurt the tranny.

3) Other ideas?????????

[BillyGman]

2) Careless 4-2 shift. I have forgotten many times to take the tranny out of overdrive before hitting the accellerator hard in 4th. I have heard that can hurt the tranny.

Yes! That's a bad practice, especially with a supercharged engine because of the increased torque being placed on the transmission. However, I find all of this too coincidental that third gear gave up right after they put the wrong trnasmission fluid in. I'd insist on talking to a Ford rep about this even though your car has been supercharged as long as there's some kind of record of them puting something other than Mercon V in the transmission.

[Glenn]

I must live under a lucky star! I never turn off my OD and constantly nail it in OD to accelerate. I rip my tires (295s) just to hear the sweet sound! I did a dozen practice runs in a huge new development while "looking at available lots to build on". (Brake torque at 2,500 and go). And all at 37,000 miles. It is not an easy trans to bust and all this at 21 mpg on the interstate. But, I lost the S/C raffle. My dream is gone.

Glenn

[BillyGman]

I must live under a lucky star! I never turn off my OD and constantly nail it in OD to accelerate. GlennI don't think that would be the case at all if your car was supercharged.

[mrogerc]

Unfortunatley, it was not a Ford dealer that put in the fluid.....I'll never make that mistake again......

[SergntMac]

As I suggested ^ there, the symptoms you express indeed have many causes leading to them, I suspected an autopsy would be ahead for you.

Yes! That's a bad practice, especially with a supercharged engine because of the increased torque being placed on the transmission. However, I find all of this too coincidental that third gear gave up right after they put the wrong trnasmission fluid in. I'd insist on talking to a Ford rep about this even though your car has been supercharged as long as there's some kind of record of them puting something other than Mercon V in the transmission.
I'm in half agreement with Billy on this. Glen, please note, this may apply to you as well.

Zack and I were the first to discover any weakness in the 4R70W tranny as it is used in the Marauder. We both lost our OD bands while traveling to MV-I in Sept. '03. Spooky. We made it home and pulled our trannies, and delivered them to Jerry W. in Livonia, MI. Jerry is the Ford engineer who designed this tranny and maintained it for 11 years with Ford. He also rebuilt our trannies, and mine is still going strong today, and with 478 RWHP, 434 RWTQ, and some very nasty treatment at times. The car is often driven by others and who knows what they do to it? Nonetheless, it takes a pounding, and it's running strong today. Just last night, a 5 hour blast from Ohio home, 385 miles in 5 hours, 1 stop for gas.

The issue behind "OD off before downshift" is affected by the degree of modification to transmission shift schedules, and 4>2 line pressure at downshift, and it's too technical for me to explain here. However, the degree of modification your custom tune calls for contributes to OD failure, and a tune that calls for a hard downshift with high pressure will cause accelerated wear. So, Glen may be doing what he does with no problems, because his tune calls for a lighter 4>2 downshift, while others may not. The best advice for us to give out here, is advice that protects all, and that advice is to lock out OD before hammering into a WOT.

The 4R70W is very strong, but severly affected by incorrect fluid, meaning that you're not going to get around this. Twice now, my #1x has been filled with the wrong fluid, once in Kenny Brown's hands during it's experimental days, and once by me, and not knowing any better. Add the wrong fluid, you will get problems right away, however, none of them are permanent, or, result in the damage you describe from short term use. In fact, I think I did it twice. I had a tranny leak OTR and I was headed for service, but had to add just two quarts of Mercon III (all I could get OTR) just to get there. The tranny knew it right away, but I limped in. No damage to the tranny from this short use, the leak was the dipstick tube backed out.

IMHO, your wrong fluid isn't the cause, but it may have brough your wear and tear to the surface. At least you didn't get stranded anywhere. My additional advice is to get the Stage II kit from Reinhart and have a professional tranny builder install it. Certain things, like clutch discs, need to be measured for correct fit, and the average tranny monkey won't do this right. The parts in this kit are what Jerry W. called for after the autopsy on our trannies back in '03, and you will have a few parts left over, it's a kit for all common repairs and mods. Do it right, and do it once.

I'm out of the argument on the 100 percent synthetic fluids, I'll stick to Mercon V. I'll add that the Mercon V is very efficient, but it is very heat sensitive too. It doesn't burn slowly, it's more like a flash fire. It doesn't give you any hints, it just breaks down, and the risk to internals is immediate. If you see damage from heat, it wasn't the wrong fluid, it was the fluid you replace that caused that, IMHO, and here I agree with Billy again.

I'm guessing that you installed a supercharger on a stock convertor and tranny, and enjoyed it. IMHO, supercharging the MM requires some attention to the rest of the powertrain, and an upgrade to a performance convertor, and some tranny tuning, as well as more frequent tranny fluid changes, will not only improve your performance, it will keep you from breaking.

Sorry for the long post, just my .02c...

[BillyGman]

I'm not disagreeing with MAC here, but only adding something to what he stated...... Just a little FYI for ya here.....I've seen some of Jerry W's posts on another board where he clearly stated that as long as you stay under the 430 RWHP mark with these transmissions, then they will hold up fine w/out any modifications. While I have an aftermarket torque converter, the transmission itself on my Marauder is bone stock. And having put 17,000 pretty hard miles on it since I installed the supercharger, so far the transmission has held up very well.


However, I've kept the RWHP level at 400 with the 9.5 PSI pulley on my car, while both MAC & Zack have went up to the 475+RWHP neighborhood with their Marauders. My point is, that what Jerry W. has stated has panned out so far with our cars as far as the acceptable stock transmission power levels. I also want to point out that since I supercharged my Marauder, I have the transmission fluid flushed and changed like clockwork every 6,000 miles or 6 months as a preventative measure. That might sound like overkill, but I think that spending the $140 at the dealer for that twice per year is no biggie in light of the fact that I've spent $6K for a supercharger set-up. And after all, I'm puting a lot more power through this stock transmisssion than the car did before it was supercharged.

BTW, when your transmission is healthy, do an experiment for yourself as I did. Cruise on the highway slowly at about 60 MPH with the O/D on, and hammer the pedal to the floor and pay attention to how the transmission downshifts. After doing that, slow back down to 60MPH again, and turn the O/D off (green light lit up on dash), and hammer the go pedal again. When I did that with my car, the transmission shifted into the lower gear so much smoother while the O/D is turned off. It's much more of a harsh transition when the O/D is on. That's why I believe the theory about it being a bad practice to hit full throttle over 30MPH with your O/D in the on position. Atleast with supercharged engines.

[SergntMac]

I'm going to mark this date on my calendar, because we fully agree again.

My point is, that what Jerry W. has stated has panned out so far with our cars as far as the acceptable stock transmission power levels. I also want to point out that since I supercharged my Marauder, I have the transmission fluid flushed and changed like clockwork every 6,000 miles or 6 months as a preventative measure. That might sound like overkill, but I think that spending the $140 at the dealer for that twice per year is no biggie in light of the fact that I've spent $6K for a supercharger set-up. And after all, I'm puting a lot more power through this stock transmisssion than the car did before it was supercharged.
Sorry to distract from the heart of this thread, but this kinda fits the topic.

Keeping fluid cool is a must in supercharged applications, so, I added a deep tranny pan with a drain plug from Ford Racing, P/N M-7195-AR (195.00). My rationale was to enhance cooling, the pan is heavy weight aluminum with cooling fins that extend down into the air path beneath the car, as well as extending capacity 2 quarts. BTW, the kit come with allen head bolts too. The advantage of the drain plug is that anytime I feel it's necessary, I can drain the pan and top off with fresh fluid. Though not as efficient as a full flush, my expense is the cost of fluid and an hour's time. So, after a long road trip such as this past weekend, it's an option if my next scheduled service is still far away.

Kenny Brown adds a second cooler to his Marauder S build, the Ford Racing kit #M-7095-SR (49.95) sits in the driver's side front wheel well, behind the fog lamp. It's a "stacked plate" design rated to a full 18,000lbs. GVW rating, great if you tow. This is just more cooling on the way back to the pan, and I think it's an ideal addition to any Marauder getting modded and raced, or, driven hard. Cooling is important, Jerry makes this point very clear too.

[mrogerc]

Outstanding, thanks Billy and Mac.

I hope to get my baby back tomorrow. For a while, I am going to drive with the OBD-II reader plugged in and monitor the transmission temp. I have this paranoid thought that somehow the folks that replaced the fluid did something to plug or kink a line to the tranny cooler---pure speculation and likely wrong, of course, but I want to understand what is going on in the tranny.

I think a second tranny cooler and a pod-mounted gage are next on the mod list. Although this came on somewhat gradually, I wonder if I would have noticed unusual temps had I been monitoring.

[mrogerc]

I got my baby back yesterday, and all is well. In fact, based on close observation of the behavior of my transmission, I am wondering of my tranny was sick for some time. Shifts are firmer, and it feels much more solid.

The parts replaced included:

DRIVEN PLATE-STEEL
DRIVE PLATE-CLUTCH
CYLINDER
SOLENOID ASY
SCREEN ASY
CLUTCH ASY

And a number of other gaskets, etc.

I also have started to monitor my tranny temps, and so far the temp has not exceeded 190.

[BillyGman]

That's good to hear that your transmision troubles are over. Thanks for the detailed update. :banana2:

[Bradley G]

Who did the repair?dealer or private? Did you do any mods?spiral clip? beefed any thing up?

Bradley G