Failed Emissions Test...total BS!

[mpearce]

Not that I'm actually worried about this Mickey Mouse, Dog and Pony show operation we call our Emissions Inspection Stations here in Ohio...but...

I failed my emissions test today. Not with the MM of course...but with a 160,000 mile, 1995 GMC Yukon. This truck has passed every single test it's been up against since Ive had it. Today I fail. I'm looking for some help, and some opinions as to what you all may think is going on here...so let me paint the picture.

They tested 4 things, 3 of which I passed. I will now list for you the definitions spelled out by the Ohio E Check paperwork...

-Carbon Monoxide (CO) - An oderless, colorless harmful gas produced by improper fuel combustion in the engine.

-Hydrocarbons (HC) - Formed when fuel leaves the engine without being fully burned. HC combines with other pollutants to form harmful ground-level ozone.

-Nitrogen/Oxygen compounds (NOx) - A harmful vehicle exhaust emission that is produced when engine combustion temperatures run too high. NOx combines with other pollutants to form harmful ground-level ozone.

So, my truck passed EVERYTHING but the (NOx) Nitrogen/Oxygen test...which just so happens to be the states "newest" item that they're testing for this year. Isn't that convienient?? Gotta love it!

Now, the lady (which could have been mistaken for a man) hands me my failed emissions paperwork and says..."um yeah...your trucks engine is running hotter than it's supposed to." I say...Oh really?? My thermostat doesn't say so. Oh well...I'm sorry...but you're going to have to go get it fixed, and then come back and have it tested again. Nice.

The allowable NOx limit is "aparently" 1237.0 PPM My truck emitted 1468.3 PPM. So for 200 PPM, I've got to go fork out $$$$$ to get something fixed?? And here's the kicker...I have to get it fixed by an "approved" inspection repair shop. What a racket this whole thing is. It gets even better...

If you try to get your vehicle fixed, and it fails again...the state will give you a waiver to drive your vehicle around. But not before you're forced to spend $200 fixing the "emission" problem. Once you've spent at least $200 at their "approved" fix-it station...you're then allowed to drive your "dirty" vehicle around.

Is it just me...or is all this a whole bunch of major BS?! What about those construction dump trucks billowing black smoke into the air every time they drive down the street? Hmmm...I guess they're ok.

Ok...so after my long winded story...does anyone have any suggestions for me? How in blazes am I suppoed to go in and get my "engine combustion temperatures" lower? Does anyone have a quick fix for this? Does anyone think this is real? What should I do?

Comments and opinions are now welcome...

-Mat

[MAD-3R]

There are no probelems that can't be solved with a suitable application of high explosives.

[TooManyFords]

Could have a lot of carbon deposits in the heads, a bad EGR valve or bad Cats. Put some 93 in it and go flog it to burn the carbon out. However, my first thought it the cats.


John

[MENINBLK]

First of all, your vehicle is 10 years old.
At 160,000 miles, when was it last tuned ?

An engine can run hot for a number of reasons.
At 160,000 miles, a partially clogged radiator comes to mind.
A thermostat would not solve that...
Collapsed Catalytic Converters can be another cause.

Calm yourself down and look over your situation again.
If you've had the vehicle since it was new, and performed its maintenance
over the years, look at all of the things you've touched, and look at all of the
things you HAVEN'T touched !

What is causing you to fail can be something very simple,
and it doesn't always have to be expensive.

[frdrckmarauder]

Could have a lot of carbon deposits in the heads, a bad EGR valve or bad Cats. Put some 93 in it and go flog it to burn the carbon out. However, my first thought it the cats.


JohnIn Maryland, we have shops who specialize in failed emission repair...Perhaps you have the same in Ohio....In Maryland, that $200 is actually $450....after you spend the $450 here, if you still fail, you can drive it..

[mpearce]

Cool, now im thinkin!

Ok here is some more info that might be pertinant...

The car had a tune up a year ago, new plugs, new wires, etc, and an oil change was done about 5,000 miles ago. The car runs on nothing but 93 octane.

It had a brand new Gibson cat back system put on in january of 2004, everything exhaust wise (except manifolds) is only 1 year old.

Any other thoughts?

-Mat

[David Morton]

I've heard of cars that emitted obvious smoke passing the test by simply using compressed air. A small line goes from a tank of compressed air to a small hole drilled in the exhaust pipe after the cats. Duals use two lines.

Here's why it works. The test is measuring parts per million (PPM) so when they put the "sniffer" to your exhaust pipe, you turn on the air and the "million" part of the equation gets doubled or even tripled. This can jump your 1400+ down to 500-700 ppm and you're home free.

But I'm not recommending you do that, of course. That would be cheating. :D

Toomanyfords mentioned it and my experience tells me the problem is EGR. This is not my guess, it is the diagnosis I arrive at from my years of experience and training. Oxides of Nitrogen are caused by the air/fuel mixture burning too hot and the EGR is specifically designed to fix just that, the NOx emissions, and nothing else. It adds "dead" exhaust gas that has no oxygen in order to cool-off the burn efficiency and curtail the creation of NOx. Bad valve or clogged port will cause this problem. This is what she meant when she said it runs hot, the burn is too hot. Fix it because a too hot burn can cause detonation that your computer may have been compensating for all along anyways. Fix it and you might pick up some performance and gas mileage.

Catalytic convertors address the other two, CO and Hydrocarbons. It can't affect NOx.

With those miles I'd guess a new EGR valve is probably in order. Sometimes you can clean it up along with all the other carbon build-ups from valves to pistons to combustion chambers with injector cleaners and top-cylinder cleaners. I've also taken a coke bottle filled with water, run engine speed up to about 2500 rpm, and slowly poured the water directly into the intake. This will clean the whole intake path of all carbon deposits and the steam might clean the EGR valve and port out so it will work properly. But this is also dangerous! If you pour too fast you might make too many fast neutrons and cause a nuclear meltdown, AKA "China Syndrome". :D

This one was too easy. :lol:

[mjs302]

Check your EGR system for proper operation and try running a tank of regular fuel. Higher octane fuel is actually harder to burn and can sometimes raise combustion temps just enough to push you over the emissions test on Nox levels. (learned that the hard way here in New Jersey with my 91 Mustang) Also , make sure your ignition timing is not set above the factory recommended specs for the test.

[mpearce]

Thank you to all who have posted here. Even more speculation or diagnoses are welcome. I have a feeling the timing is set a little higher than the factory specs, because if i run anything less than 93 it knocks, i can hear it. But on 93 it's as smooth as glass. So if i take it to the dealer, have them replace my EGR valve and lower my timing, I should be ok?

[FastMerc]

Well you will like this,I had a 79 camaro that had to go in.Being a california car I thought it would pass,NOT! So I went back after a tune up oil change.Still no good,I was not going to put a lot of money in this car. I asked a buddy what to do,He said go get 8 bottles of rubbing alcohol pour it in the gas tank run the car around get it hot.Run it all out fill it with gas,I went and got the test,it passed with colors and then some.They looked at me curiously and asked what I did.I took the papers and left.:D

[BillyGman]

Mat, there's one thing here that nobody has touched on yet. You stated that you had a "Cat back" system installed. That might be your problem. There are two types of cats. "Two way", and "three way". The 2-way cats only are supposed to be installed on older vehicles (older than yours) that have very loose requirements or no requirements for Nitrogen, or Nitrous gases as far as emissions standards go, and are only for reducing hydrocarbons, and carbonmonoxides. The "3-way" cats are the ones that are needed for newer vehicles that have stricter Nitrous gases emissions requirement standards.


My point being, that if that cat-back system that you had installed did NOT include the 3-way cats, then that might very well be the reason that it will not pass, and if it is, it will likely NEVER pass no matter what you do until you get the right cats put on. You need to find out the exact part # of the cats that you have on there now. And if you also can find the manufacture, then you can look on the net if they have a website, and look up the cats by part # and it should tell you on their site whether that part # is 2-way, or 3-way cats. if not, then you can telephone the manufacture as long as you have the correct part # of the cats that you have on there.

[BillyGman]

here's the PM I just wrote to Mat, and I decided to post it here too incase someone esle ever goes through what Mat is. I'm not positive that this is the only possible problem with Mat's vehicle failing emissions, but it sure sounds to me like it's a very good possibility that it's the following which also relates to my previous post above^.......


It sounds to me like they're ripping you off at the emissions station, because if your vehicle was never originally required to get past the Nitrogen, or "Nitrous" gases tests like newer vehicles are, then that means that the OEM cats for your vehicle were originally and always will be "2-way" meaning that they only reduce the emissions from two gases (Hydrocarbons & carbon monoxides) and for them to increase the restrictions by adding the third gas requirements (third meaning the Nitrous gas tests) then your vehicle will never pass with the direct OE replacement cat(s). So you might want to dispute this, but I don't know how you can go about a dispute.But it sounds to me like it's very possible that they might simply have their machine calinrated wrong for testing your vehicle, or vehicles that are as old as yours is. And BTW, that wouldn't be a first either. I've heard of that happening before. Until the state in question found it our due to numerous complaints.<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->

[Rob1559]

Go to a different station for a test. It has been known to work.

[David Morton]

Thank you to all who have posted here. Even more speculation or diagnoses are welcome. I have a feeling the timing is set a little higher than the factory specs, because if i run anything less than 93 it knocks, i can hear it. But on 93 it's as smooth as glass. So if i take it to the dealer, have them replace my EGR valve and lower my timing, I should be ok?Just take it to the dealer. I bet EGR is the culprit.

[shakes_26]

[/QUOTE] This will clean the whole intake path of all carbon deposits and the steam might clean the EGR valve and port out so it will work properly. But this is also dangerous! If you pour too fast you might make too many fast neutrons and cause a nuclear meltdown, AKA "China Syndrome". :D

This one was too easy. :lol:[/QUOTE]
This actually does work, I use a spray bottle to prevent the 'china syndrone' effect. Which by the way would be caused by an excess of slow neutrons, which have a greater cross section for interaction (Barnes), and release more energy per collision... but I digress.

You have sticky/bad egr valve, take apart, carb/choke clean, and try the water spray while revving trick.

[BillyGman]

well, I've lerned with other cars in the past (sometimes the hard way) to start with the inexpensive things first, so maybe it would be good to checkout the EGR valve first like some others have suggested. I'm assuming that would be less expensive even if you had to purchase e new one than a new cat would be (just a guess on my part since I don't remember ever having to purchase one myself).Does anyone know if a clogged PCV valve would cause this? (another inexpensive part).

[David Morton]

Dawg! You're right! I keep getting turned around on the neutrons, slow/fast. Feel like Vinny Barbarino. I'm so confused! :D

PCV, like the cats, can't possibly cause the combustion chamber creation of NOx. It merely recirculates blow-by gases that escape past the rings back into the intake.

Trust me guys, I've been to a few factory schools on this subject, emissions, and I know what I'm talking about. NOx is created under the high temperatures and pressures found only in the cylinders. It is also a very durable molecule and the cat hasn't been invented yet that can burn, remove or disassemble it. Your problem is in the EGR system. Valve, solenoid or clogged port or pipes, it's got to be in the EGR.

I probably would have failed my ASE tune-up and emissions test and not attained Master certification if I missed this easy one. EGR is all about NOx and is the only way to address the NOx problem.

And in case anybody is confused, no, you can't capture this NOx and use it for a nitrous oxide system. It's a different NOx.

:lol:

[1stMerc]

Thank you to all who have posted here. Even more speculation or diagnoses are welcome. I have a feeling the timing is set a little higher than the factory specs, because if i run anything less than 93 it knocks, i can hear it. But on 93 it's as smooth as glass. So if i take it to the dealer, have them replace my EGR valve and lower my timing, I should be ok?
You say you have 5000 miles since your last oil change. And oil change would be your first step. Then go to your local auto parts store and buy a bottle of Regane and it to the gas and take it out and run the p$$ out of it. That will take care of any carbon buildup. then check the gap on the plugs.

[David Morton]

Lemme get out my symptoms/diagnosis charts...

...emissions, oxides of nitrogen, NOx levels high. Here it is. Possible causes...

...EGR system not working properly.

...no other possible causes are listed!

...no mention of bad oil, plugs, PCV, catalytic convertors or timing off.

You see, high levels of oxides of nitrogen are formed when an internal combustion engine is operating at it's most efficient. The EGR hurts performance and gas mileage by recirculating useless exhaust gas into the intake charge to cool-off the burn and stop the creation of NOx.

I bet if you screwed-up the plugs the NOx will go down. You could do that. :rolleyes:

[Shaft333]

I don't think the vehicle is the problem.
The problem is the system that forces you to test your vehicle.
First I hate the emissions test laws. I read them as a means to curb "ugly old cars."

The fact that you have to go to an "approved" shop irks me. Then the fact that if you fail after going to the shop you can still drive the car is a major WTF?! You failed but at least you tried? And trying means you paid out to a shop that we told you to go to??!?!

It's another tax, man. BS (insert political derogative statements here pertaining to one particular political pattern that really don't belong on this site) tax.

So, my question is who benefits from this tax?

[Ken]

You could register it 2 counties over, ex. Erie. (about 30 miles away.):rolleyes: And not have to worry about E-check.:bs: Since I'm about 20 miles away, I can't help you with an address.:(

Ken

[AzMarauder]

Not that I'm actually worried about this Mickey Mouse, Dog and Pony show operation we call our Emissions Inspection Stations here in Ohio...but...

I failed my emissions test today. Not with the MM of course...but with a 160,000 mile, 1995 GMC Yukon. This truck has passed every single test it's been up against since Ive had it. Today I fail. I'm looking for some help, and some opinions as to what you all may think is going on here...so let me paint the picture.

They tested 4 things, 3 of which I passed. I will now list for you the definitions spelled out by the Ohio E Check paperwork...

-Carbon Monoxide (CO) - An oderless, colorless harmful gas produced by improper fuel combustion in the engine.

-Hydrocarbons (HC) - Formed when fuel leaves the engine without being fully burned. HC combines with other pollutants to form harmful ground-level ozone.

-Nitrogen/Oxygen compounds (NOx) - A harmful vehicle exhaust emission that is produced when engine combustion temperatures run too high. NOx combines with other pollutants to form harmful ground-level ozone.

So, my truck passed EVERYTHING but the (NOx) Nitrogen/Oxygen test...which just so happens to be the states "newest" item that they're testing for this year. Isn't that convienient?? Gotta love it!

Now, the lady (which could have been mistaken for a man) hands me my failed emissions paperwork and says..."um yeah...your trucks engine is running hotter than it's supposed to." I say...Oh really?? My thermostat doesn't say so. Oh well...I'm sorry...but you're going to have to go get it fixed, and then come back and have it tested again. Nice.

The allowable NOx limit is "aparently" 1237.0 PPM My truck emitted 1468.3 PPM. So for 200 PPM, I've got to go fork out $$$$$ to get something fixed?? And here's the kicker...I have to get it fixed by an "approved" inspection repair shop. What a racket this whole thing is. It gets even better...

If you try to get your vehicle fixed, and it fails again...the state will give you a waiver to drive your vehicle around. But not before you're forced to spend $200 fixing the "emission" problem. Once you've spent at least $200 at their "approved" fix-it station...you're then allowed to drive your "dirty" vehicle around.

Is it just me...or is all this a whole bunch of major BS?! What about those construction dump trucks billowing black smoke into the air every time they drive down the street? Hmmm...I guess they're ok.

Ok...so after my long winded story...does anyone have any suggestions for me? How in blazes am I suppoed to go in and get my "engine combustion temperatures" lower? Does anyone have a quick fix for this? Does anyone think this is real? What should I do?

Comments and opinions are now welcome...

-MatSo shop around and find an emissions repair place... that is willing to do absolutely nothing for $75 .... but SAY they did something.... go back to the inspection station and fail your test like a man and get on with life. :rolleyes:

[CRUZTAKER]

I feel your pain Matt.

So far so good with the beater Vic passing. I had to replace my EGR and both o2 sensors last year. There are local service stations with the old wands that can check your emissions output before you go back.

I once had a rotory RX-7 that had to have the timing turned so far back to pass, that I could drive no faster than 25mph to/from the e-check station. It always passed....barely, and afterward we upped the timing and it was back to ozone depletion driving.;)

The e-check center off I-90 in Westlake wrecked my 1980 cutlass with 17,000 miles on it when the very young tester left it on the dyno in gear unattended. It went driverless through the big blue cooling fan breaking a headlight and scratching down the entire side, out the door, across the parking lot, and into a ravine to rest on it's underside on a tree stump.

The state paid me nearly 4k for the damage, but I will never trust those folks again.

Oddly enough, we are supposed to be e-checked every two years (odd/even) depending on the year of the vehicle, on the owners birthday. The newer cars are no longer dynoed, but merely plugged into the EEC and monitored. I have renewed my MM plates twice now, having had the car nearly 3 years. Each time my e-check box says "not required".

I wonder if the Marauder is on the exempt list in Ohio already?

[mpearce]

So shop around and find an emissions repair place... that is willing to do absolutely nothing for $75 .... but SAY they did something.... go back to the inspection station and fail your test like a man and get on with life. :rolleyes:
I failed algebra like a man in college. This whole e-check scam is for the birds!

:bs:

-Mat

[mpearce]

The e-check center off I-90 in Westlake wrecked my 1980 cutlass
Yep...this is where I went. Dealer said to try replacing the 02 sensors first, and they would test it out to see if it would pass. If they thought so...they'd send me on my way. I think I'll try this out, and take it to another station.

Ken...you never know...within the next year I could wind up as your neighbor. You don't have to do e-checks huh? I suppose you don't pay a RITA tax either!!

RITA = :bs:

-Mat