Difference: MM Engine & Mach1 Engine

[Rider90]

Does anyone know the differences between our engine and an engine from the Mach1? They are at over 300 rwhp with just a K&N drop in and some exhaust work.

[Petrograde]

One thing I know is the air intake faces left in the Mustang, and to the right on ours.

..also,.. I'm not sure if the Mustang has an aluminum block like ours.

I'm sure someone will shed more light on this...

[BillyGman]

One thing I know is the air intake faces left in the Mustang, and to the right on ours.

..also,.. I'm not sure if the Mustang has an aluminum block like ours.

I'm sure someone will shed more light on this...Yes, they do have aluminum blocks. The mach I's also have the alternators mounted in the middle like our Marauders do. They also have the same compression ratio, but that's all I know. I'm not sure about piston type. But the cranks are the same too. This is a good question this thread brought up. Anyone else have more info?

[woaface]

They've got a big ass intake on top of the HOOD!

It's a big help I'm sure.

[merc]

But the cranks are the same too. This is a good question this thread brought up. Anyone else have more info?

I believe the manual transmission has a steel crank, and the auto is cast.

[woaface]

I believe the manual transmission has a steel crank, and the auto is cast.
AND, It has a manual.

[woaface]

I guess Mach 1's are pretty cool then.

I don't mean to sound like an ass.

[BillyGman]

I believe the manual transmission has a steel crank, and the auto is cast.Okay, thanks for that correction Merc.:)

[Rider90]

They've got a big ass intake on top of the HOOD!

It's a big help I'm sure.

Yes but they also have an air intake tube just like we do. I was just informed they believe it is the drivetrain loss with an automatic, since their autos come in around the same power as ours but their manuals are usually 40-50 rwhp better.

[BillyGman]

AND, It has a manual.Are you saying that there aren't any Mach I's equipped with an automatic?

[fastblackmerc]

Are you saying that there aren't any Mach I's equipped with an automatic?
Another dfference is the Mach1's engine is hand assembled. Maybe it's balanced better??

[ncmm]

I guess Mach 1's are pretty cool then.

I don't mean to sound like an ass.
But not as cool as my Bullitt. . .:cool:

or Mackensie. . .:bows:

[metroplex]

They both have tin foil blocks... Cast iron what it's all about.

[BillyGman]

They both have tin foil blocks... Cast iron what it's all about.Are you saying that only because they're aluminum?

[merc]

They both have tin foil blocks... Cast iron what it's all about.

An Iron block is a good practical design for strength and durability. On the down side of that it has the extra weight and heat dissipation problems. In other words.. its heavy and doesn’t get rid of heat fast enough. For applications with superchargers you need a good bottom end if you desire to force a lot of air into the system to achieve grunt horse power, an Iron block is ideal if you want it to stay together. But an Iron block is not always better. Aluminum blocks are lighter in weight and dissipate heat quicker, which should allow the engine to work more thus freeing up extra horse and torque. In applications of racing sometime a cooler running engine can be ideal for consistent 1/4 mile times with out having a heat soaked engine, besides the fact that it doesn’t have the weight where as the Iron block would have to work harder. We all know that weight and heat effect 1/4-mile times and the aluminum block provides another option to achieve better times. There are advantages and disadvantages to both designs however. It really comes down to what application you desire and personal preference

[BillyGman]

yep...I agree....the Ford GT supercar has an aluminum block which endures 12 PSI of boost pressure, and 550 HP with 500 FT/LBS of torque too. However, it's also made beefier than the standard 5.4L blocks and has more webbing. But don't the Ford Lightning trucks(which ofcourse are also supercharged) have aluminum blocks?

[dwasson]

... and where you have the real problems is when there is different metalurgy between the heads and the block. Then there are different rates of expansion and you see warped heads and blown head gaskets. The engines in the 80s with iron blocks and aluminum heads were more sensitive to overheating because of the different expansion coefficients.

[merc]

Does anyone know the differences between our engine and an engine from the Mach1? They are at over 300 rwhp with just a K&N drop in and some exhaust work.

You asked the same question on the mach1registy.org forum.

http://www.mach1registry.org/forums/showthread.php?t=35301&highlight=marauder

[Rider90]

Charlie, why would you come on to a Marauder board and refer to our engine block as "Tin Foil?"

You never cease to amaze me :rolleyes:

Steering this back on track...
I do believe it is the drive train loss since their Mach1's do see almost the same dyno numbers stock, that ours do, as long as they are automatics.

Riddle Solved?

[Rider90]

You asked the same question on the mach1registy.org forum.

http://www.mach1registry.org/forums/showthread.php?t=35301&highlight=marauder

You're right - but how about jumping to the dedicated thread rather than the initial question...To see their take on it:

http://www.mach1registry.org/forums/showthread.php?t=35307

[Petrograde]

You asked the same question on the mach1registy.org forum.

http://www.mach1registry.org/forums/showthread.php?t=35301&highlight=marauder

never hurts to get a few opinions from different sources...

[DEFYANT]

I do not beleive there is a difference between our engines and the automatic equipt Mach 1. Except we have a better wrapper :D

[FordNut]

I do not beleive there is a difference between our engines and the automatic equipt Mach 1. Except we have a better wrapper :D
The exhaust manifolds may be different due to clearance issues with the frame. As mentioned above, the only difference on the automatics is the intake. Same pistons, block, heads, crank. The manual Machs have a steel crank.

There are lots of aluminum block mod motor 'stangs making over 800 rwhp so I don't see any reason for the "tin foil" comments.

[ckadiddle]

The difference between my Marauder and a Mach1 ? Thats EASY... Mine's is BIGGER !!!!! :)

[Shaft333]

I don't know for sure... but what about the cams? I keep reading that the Marauder was fitted with a "truck" cam for low end torque.
Does the Mach 1 have a... um... "car" cam. http://mercurymarauder.net/forums/images/smilies/biggrin.gif


As far as aluminum vs. iron... aluminum saves weight, which is nice. But it's my understanding that because of aluminum's tendency to become brittle... our grandchildren will probably not be able to work with our old blocks as easily as we can work with a 50 yo iron block today.

[DEFYANT]

I don't know for sure... but what about the cams? I keep reading that the Marauder was fitted with a "truck" cam for low end torque.
Does the Mach 1 have a... um... "car" cam. http://mercurymarauder.net/forums/images/smilies/biggrin.gif.
A simple check of the part numbers should tell once and for all. Perhaps one of our dealer members can check it out???

[jjaguda]

I had an 04 MACH 1 with the Auto. Autos have the cast crank and the same pistons the MM have. Sticks have the forged crank and pistons from the pre '03 Cobras. Basically, the 5sp MACHs have the older cobra motor with some variances in the cams. ALSO . . . MACH 1 Auto = 302 hp; MACH 1 5spd = 305 hp. 5spds had a higher redline than the autos. Also, same autos and 3.55 gears. Different calibrations from the MM.
My MACH would send the rear wheels past the front wheels in a snap on the 1st - 2nd shift. The car did weigh about 3400 lbs.

If you really want to know precisely what is in the MACHs go to mach1registry.com and do a search. Ther is even discussion as to why the autos got the weak crank and pistons rather than the forged pieces.

[Joe Walsh]

They both have tin foil blocks... Cast iron what it's all about.


OH MY!!!!

You should immediately inform; Ferrari, Lamborghini, Porsche, BMW, Audi, Astin Martin and just about every automobile manufacturer on the planet that they are producing 'tin foil' blocks! :shake:

Yep, When given a choice of what to mount the high tech DOHC 4V aluminum cylinder heads on top of, I would definitely opt for the cutting edge technology of CAST IRON.

After all it IS the material of choice for all boat anchors!

[Rider90]

I would definitely opt for the cutting egde technology of CAST IRON.

After all it IS the material of choice for all boat anchors!
:laugh: :lol:

[SergntMac]

Did y'all forget about the Aviator?

Okay, just adding my .02c here, stuff I have picked up hanging around PER while my engine was getting rebuilt late last year. Randy had a few samples lying around, and I've got some pics, but I don't think that's necessary. Okay, FWIW, here's how I understand it...

The MM, Mach 1, Aviator and Cobra all share the same 4V DOHC design, and all parts are interchangable, which Ford likes to do every year, just to keep threads like this open and humming. The chief difference is what is used inside. The MM gets a cast crank, I beam rods and hypertetehatever pistons. The Mach I gets the same engine with a "right handed" upper intake manifold, unless it's mated to a manual tranny, then it gets steel forged crank.

Cast cranks are six bolt, forged are eight, still, performance-wise, the engines are fairly similar. Only the Cobra engine is hand fit together, and it's not every little piece as in hand built, it's assembly of component pieces, with signatures on the valve cover. Nice touch, SVT.

The Cobra is not an easy engine to trace or track, a specific configuration depends on the year it was produced. It may or may not have an aluminum block, and it may or may not have been supercharged, which affects compression ratios. You really have to treat each Cobra short block individually, nonetheless, the Cobra is known for it's steel forged crank and H beam rods. It uses the same piston as the Marauder and the Mach I, same hyperwhatever material, but with minor adjustments to configure compression.

The high compression Cobra pistion (in some years) is a true 10.1:1 compression, and the Marauder/Mach I piston has a 3cc dish, which cuts compression to 9.8:1. At other times, the Cobra piston uses 8.1:1 compression, and if you were to hold that piston side by side with the MM/Mach, the only visual difference is the thickness of the piston above the top ring, and the dish top. There's a name for this section of the piston, but it eludes me right now.

Cams...It was Lincoln Mercury who gave us the "uses truck cams" phrase in the press kit and sales training kit, and it's stuck. We may or may not share cam profiles with a truck, I never bothered to check it out, but I did learn that the cam profiles between the engines we are discussing, are not radically different. Every once in a while, you'll hear a story about someone who used a Navigator exhaust cam with an Aviator intake cam and got wild results, however, if stuff like this were really true, we would hear more about it. IMHO, the cam profile we share in these engines is pretty damn hot, and the aftermarket cam companies are having a rough time of improving on them. Until you want to get really radical and shoot for 800 RWHP, there's not much benefit in messing with them. Ditto the heads, valves and rockers, we got a neat engine to work with as it is, it just needs a clean up.

BTW, when I built my engine, I kept my stock aluminum block, "weak" is word that won't work here. The Marauder/Mach I aluminum blocks are some pretty tough dudes, the weak link in our engine is the rods. Just remember that most of myths spread on this stuff, come from people trying to sell you something, even if it's just a copy of their magazine "with the straight dope in it."

I won't challenge the opening topic, somewhere I am sure a manual tranny Mach I hit 300 RWHP with a few selected mods. But I don't think it a routine happening. If so, I'm happy for them, but most of it is due to lower driveline losses from a manual tranny.

About that "shaker" hood scoop, that's not the intake sticking out of the hood. And, what is sticking out of the hood, is not providing the ram air effect most people think it does. The air that's captured by the scoop flows to the air box in the engine bay (passenger side) for filtering, and then it leads to the intake through internal ducting. I'm sure that by the time the air reaches the intake, air velocity and temperature are remarkably changed. Still, it's a nice touch. Happy motoring!

[Rider90]

Very nice information!

[jjaguda]

About that "shaker" hood scoop, that's not the intake sticking out of the hood. And, what is sticking out of the hood, is not providing the ram air effect most people think it does. The air that's captured by the scoop flows to the air box in the engine bay (passenger side) for filtering, and then it leads to the intake through internal ducting. I'm sure that by the time the air reaches the intake, air velocity and temperature are remarkably changed. Still, it's a nice touch. Happy motoring!
I added the CDC shaker system to an '02 Mustang GT. Conuld not feel a bit of diffrence. Ended up taking it off and putting the original GT hood back on (didn't want to cut a hole in the original hood, so I went to a all ford parts dealer and salvaged a hood that Saleen took of and sold to the dealer).

[Joe Walsh]

BTW, when I built my engine, I kept my stock aluminum block, "weak" is word that won't work here. The Marauder/Mach I aluminum blocks are some pretty tough dudes, the weak link in our engine is the rods.

I definitely agree....Our blocks have 4 bolt bottoms with 2 cross bolts making them 6 bolt main caps!
Very stout stuff and exactly what is needed for extended high rpm running.
Remember the other cross-bolted Ford engine block???
The awesome 427 'FE' which ran 7,500+ rpm all day long at Le Mans, NASCAR, and NHRA dragstrips back in the 60s.

[rayjay]

Didn't I read somewhere here that the 04 MM pistons are higher compression than the 03's? Also the 04 has dual knock sensors, FWIW.

[woaface]

Who!?

Billy SOME Mach's have Manuals....you know what I meant:)

I think Lidio has the coolest autobox...his is, isn't it?



But not as cool as my Bullitt. . .:cool:

or Mackensie. . .:bows:

[ncmm]

Who!?
you KNOW who :D :) ;) :cool4: :coolman:

[SergntMac]

Didn't I read somewhere here that the 04 MM pistons are higher compression than the 03's? Also the 04 has dual knock sensors, FWIW.
If you read somewhere that an '04 has dual knock sensors, you read correctly. But, I have dual knock sensors on my '03 300A, and an '04 EEC too, because there is an upgrade experiment by Zack and I that isn't worth the trouble, or, expense. If you read somewhere of "higher compression" for the '04 engine, you read wrong, FWIW.

[rayjay]

If you read somewhere that an '04 has dual knock sensors, you read correctly. But, I have dual knock sensors on my '03 300A, and an '04 EEC too, because there is an upgrade experiment by Zack and I that isn't worth the trouble, or, expense. If you read somewhere of "higher compression" for the '04 engine, you read wrong, FWIW.
Not sure of the value of dual knock sensors, maybe 04s can run on a lesser grade of gas w/out pinging???

[Shaft333]

03 has a 9.8:1 compression.
04 has 10:1.

I almost wonder if it's more of a specification change rather than a mechanical change. Know what I mean? As if some tolerance became tighter so they could truly advertise the 10:1 even though most of the 03's were right there.

[SergntMac]

Not sure of the value of dual knock sensors, maybe 04s can run on a lesser grade of gas w/out pinging???
I don't believe this is the case. At the end of the project, it didn't have much to do with adding a knock sensor directly. The '04 EEC software has more tuning parameters and flexibility, which a Ford engineer projected would deliver more tuning options. However, in order to add the '04 EEC, a second knock sensor is required on the engine harness, and in the end, the "flexibility" in tuning discovered is useful, yes. But, this project is not worth the expense in time, or, money as a whole, not to mention the side affect of loosing the PATS feature. The good news is that since then, the tuning options we discovered are now available in SCT software upgrades for licensed dealers. BTW, no options for a lower octane in the '04 MM, because compression has not changed.

03 has a 9.8:1 compression. 04 has 10:1. I almost wonder if it's more of a specification change rather than a mechanical change. Know what I mean? As if some tolerance became tighter so they could truly advertise the 10:1 even though most of the 03's were right there.
Good point to consider, you may have read advertisments that generalize specs, that I have not read. However, everything I have read, including data from Ford engineering, confirms MM compression as 9.8:1. Furthermore, I have seen proof with my own eyes, here's a pic of one of my MM pistons (my right hand) and a genuine Cobra 10.1:1 "flat top" piston (my left hand).

http://www.mercurymarauder.net/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=6369&cat=500&page=1

If you look closely, you can see a ring around the top of my MM piston, about an 1/8 of an inch inside the piston's edge. This is the ridge of the 3cc dish that cuts our compression back from the Cobra piston next to it.

Also, note that what I call the "piston crown" (meaning the meat of the piston above the top ring) is thicker on the Cobra piston than the MM piston. Remember this is a piston from a N/A Cobra, sorry I do not have any pics of a '03/'04 Cobra piston. BTW, all are made with the same hyperteutonic aluminum content. Here's my MM piston cleaned up, can you see the dish more clearly?

http://www.mercurymarauder.net/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=6370&cat=500&page=1

Last but not least, here's the MM piston/rod/cap assembly, and you can see why they are called "I beam" rods. Again, all are made with the hyperteutonic aluminum process, which has many benefits, but tolerance for detonation isn't one of them. IMHO, the weak link in any of the engines discussed here (except Cobra) is the hyperteutonic aluminum rod. It will be the first to surrender to detonation, and lateral damage can be high, which can confuse the wrench doing the autopsy, in determination of what blew first. Most often, the oil pump gears are also destroyed, and this can lead one to believe that the pump failed, but IMHO, a rod will lead the parade.

http://www.mercurymarauder.net/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=6371&cat=500&page=1

Cobra engines use a forged aluminum "H" beam rod that you can see here.

http://www.karkraft.com/svtrods10.jpg

If you wish to continue believeing there was any change in internals to the MM engine because someone may have rounded out details in magazine print, I can't help that. Until I took my MM engine down and learned some lessons from a pro, I would have said "ten to one" too, in fact, I did. So, here's my 411, hope it helps update this discussion. Happy motoring!

[JohnnyB]

The engines are pretty much similar except for the intake and certain of the internals. The Mach 1 engine is NOT hand built.

[modular46]

A lot of info in Sean Hyland's 4.6 book.

[Lidio]

There’s a lot of debate with the iron VS aluminum blocks that come in the 4.6L equipped cars and SUV’s. Until the 03 supercharged Cobra came out with its iron block, no one every really had any thing bad to say about the previous 4V Cobras with they’re aluminum blocks. But once Ford did some thing with a blower and coupled it to a iron 4.6 block as opposed to the aluminum… All of a sudden every one who didn’t know much about this stuff started thinking, “that’s it, no blower for me and my aluminum block” Every one got hysterical about this topic, it actually made it harder for me to sell blowers to the Cobra crowd because every one thought that Ford set a precedence by using an iron VS aluminum block in the 03 Cobra.

Let me just say what I’ve seen in the last few years. Its real easy. I’ve yet to tear down a hurt or broke aluminum 4.6 Cobra motor and blame the block as the cause of what ever it is that went wrong. Here’s how it typically goes with the aluminum 4.6L blocks that are under 750HP ( which is about all we ever see or much less ). If they have the stock non forged pistons…. And you do manage to detonate the motor, it will undoubtedly break a piston usually. Once you move on to forged pistons and better rods and you continue to detonate it because of a poor tune or lack of octane, what ever…. Then the next thing that starts to go wrong is instead of breaking pitons they simply begin to lift the heads and seep or blow head gaskets. That’s all I’ve ever seen happen. I’ve yet to tear one down and blame block deflection or some sort of “being an aluminum block” type problem. I’m sure there are others with greater power levels or some other scenarios I’ve not seen and may have had problems stemming from the fact that it is aluminum, but I’ve supercharged, tuned and tore down a lot of aluminum 4.6’s and so far for me, the aluminum blocks have been good to me. I would never swap the aluminum block in my MM or any other car for that matter for the heavier iron blocks. I cant speak for whats gona happen long term but my automatic 04 Mach-1 has that Kenny Belle 2.2L blower making 19psi and mounds of TQ right off idle all the way to 6000rpm. For now its holding up great and I’m confident it will go for some time.

I’m sure the 4.6 aluminum block didn’t pass some unrealistic Ford durability test, but for us street/strip guys its not been a problem.


Thanks

[Hack Goby]

They both have tin foil blocks... Cast iron what it's all about.
Charlie,I see on the timeslips page your now driving a "Tin foil block" 300A.How funny that its the same time as your "Comp cam cop car" time was. :rolleyes: :nono: :bs:

[SergntMac]

Charlie,I see on the timeslips page your now driving a "Tin foil block" 300A.How funny that its the same time as your "Comp cam cop car" time was. :rolleyes: :nono: :bs:

Up...rut row...Sorry Charlie timeslip database for Marauder only.

[MM03MOK]

Charlie,I see on the timeslips page your now driving a "Tin foil block" 300A.How funny that its the same time as your "Comp cam cop car" time was. :rolleyes: :nono: :bs:Nice try, Charlie. Thanks, Paul.

[FastMerc]

I had the oppertunity to run one at the track,I was at his door at the lights.He didnt beat me badly.

[RoyLPita]

BTW, I have a 2003 Mach 1 at work that is getting a block. I saw that the engine has "dual knock sensors". It is also a manual.

[SergntMac]

BTW, I have a 2003 Mach 1 at work that is getting a block. I saw that the engine has "dual knock sensors". It is also a manual.
And this means what?

[RoyLPita]

And this means what?

Just that a 2003 Mach 1 has the dual knock sensors, that's all.

[FordNut]

Just that a 2003 Mach 1 has the dual knock sensors, that's all.
OK, and the MM didn't get two of them 'til '04.