Question about Shifting

[Smokie]

As some of you may know I am the proud owner of a new Trilogy Kit, I am enjoying my new found power a great deal, it is hard to describe how agile my car has become, it reacts to go pedal like a 3200 lb car.

I have a question in regards to how it is shifting because it is so different from what I had before (remember my car had custom tuning)

Example:

Before. It shifted into 4th at about 42 mph.
Now. It shifts into 4th at about 36-37 mph.

Before. At 39 mph from WOT it shifted into 1st gear.
Now. It will not shift into 1st past 30 mph at WOT.

Before. 1-2 & 2-3 shifts at WOT were very firm, actually 1-2 was very hard.
Now. All shifts are very smooth at WOT, actually the 1-2 shift at WOT is very soft.

I have a totally OEM (gears & converter)power train. I hope you guys with a setup similar to mine can give me some idea if this is the norm and all is as expected. Thank you for your help.

[Smokie]

Come on guys, throw a guy a bone.

[BillyGman]

Example:

Before. It shifted into 4th at about 42 mph.
Now. It shifts into 4th at about 36-37 mph.I don't see that as any big deal.

Before. At 39 mph from WOT it shifted into 1st gear.
Now. It will not shift into 1st past 30 mph at WOT.That sounds like a good thing. Because now that your engine has much more torque than it did before, there isn't any need for it to downshift into first gear while you're moving that fast, but merely into second gear, and with all the added power, the car will still move out much better in second gear at WOT than it did before in first gear. Why wind it up to redline as soon as it's downshifted if you don't need to in order to get the car moving out?

Your Marauder needed to be wound up close to redline during a downshift before because it didn't have much power in the midrange of the RPM scale, and therefore the only respectable level of power was really high up (above 5,000 RPM's) but now it has plenty of power throughout the RPM scale. And now it needs to be programmed (like it has been with the Trilogy chip) so that the transmission shifts will make full use of the widened powerband.

Before. 1-2 & 2-3 shifts at WOT were very firm, actually 1-2 was very hard.
Now. All shifts are very smooth at WOT, actually the 1-2 shift at WOT is very soft. You must have previously had a chip or handheld tuner that you purchased which programmed the transmission to shift exceptionally harder than stock. That's a matter of preference I guess, but as for me, I don't care to have the transmission shifting so hard that the car goes sideways. That will lose time in a race anyway. If I want to get a little sideways, then I'll just hit WOT and as soon as it downshifts, it will sometimes get sideways as long as the car is moving slower than 30 MPH. But I wouldn't want it to get sideways during an upshift at WOT, and that's likely what it would do with the Trilogy kit on your car IF the transmission was programmed by the Trilogy chip to shift as hard as your car used to before it was supercharged. I found that the chip that comes with the Trilogy kit programs your transmission to shift alittle bit harder than the stock program did, and that's good enough for me.

I like it myself. Furthermore, if it hammered the gears like that during upshifts, while it might be fine for your transmission because of the higher fluid pressures during each shift point, I personally believe that with all that extra power, it would also be harder on the rest of the drivetrain (especially on the U-joints).

I have a totally OEM (gears & converter)power train. I hope you guys with a setup similar to mine can give me some idea if this is the norm and all is as expected. Thank you for your help.......................... Your engine not only has much greater PEAK HP and torque, but it also has that extra HP and torque over a wider RPM scale than it used to have. It no longer has that narrow powerband that it used to before it was supercharged. And having that wider powerband contributes even more to the increasing the acceleration than the PEAK HP and Torque #'s do. The engine now has the powerband that's as wide as one of a bigblock engine with greater displacement. So the transmission has been programmed by Lidio through the Trilogy chip to take full advantage of the wider RPM range of power that your engine now has. Read above^

[Smokie]

Billy, thank you for taking the time to respond. I suspected as much for the first 3 responses, what you say makes sense.

In regards to the 1-2 shift and only the 1-2 shift at WOT.

If you have read my posts long enough you will know that I am not prone to exageration, the 1-2 shift at WOT feels too much like it is gradually sliding into 2nd. There is no push in the back from the seat, since I am pushing with so much more power than before and I can barely feel the shift (it is that soft) where do you feel all that power is being dissipated?

[Tallboy]

My O/D kicks in at 40 MPH and torque converter lockup is at 62 MPH. My car shifts firm [not hard] and I don't want any changes to my shift points or the way it shifts.


Javier-remember Pete, my buddy who works at the track? He's driven just about everything and the first time he made a 1/4 mile pass in my car, the first thing he said was "Man, I love the way this thing shifts."

I hope this helps...

[sailsmen]

Hopefully not on the clutch! See if there is another Trilogy MM you can drive to make comparisons to.

Or give Lidio a call, I am sure a discusssion with him will give you some good 411.

[BillyGman]

the 1-2 shift at WOT feels too much like it is gradually sliding into 2nd. There is no push in the back from the seat, since I am pushing with so much more power than before and I can barely feel the shift (it is that soft) where do feel all that power is being dissipated?Javier, do you remember how your Marauder transmission shifted when it was completely, and I mean COMPLETELY bone stock and w/out even a chip nor a computer re-flash? Well with the Trilogy chip, your transmission should be shifting a little bit firmer than it did back then, but perhaps softer than it did after you had it re-tuned. does that sound like what it's doing? because if so, then there's nothing wrong. but if it isn't even shifting any firmer than it did right off the showroom floor, then there's something wrong, and it might be your transmission in question. But remember what I stated in another thread abou the downshifts. You should only be hammering your go pedal at WOT after clicking off the O/D. because you'll mess things up if you don't. And that's with or without a supercharger.

[Tallboy]

Hopefully not on the clutch! See if there is another Trilogy MM you can drive to make comparisons to.
You're welcome to take my car anytime you want. Just let me know.:cool:

[Smokie]

The reason that I started here, is because since there are so many Trilogy Kits I figured that I could probably from the feedback here determine if this is the norm and there is no reason for concern or bother Lidio. Again the car runs great, pulls fantastic, it is a joy to drive.

The first mod. to my car 2 1/2 years ago was a flash that corrected very soft shifting, so keep in mind for the last 2 1/2 years all I have known are very firm WOT shifts. The car maybe doing exactly what Lidio intended and for a very good reason.

I asked the questions because I associate soft shifting with slippage of the bands and I thought that is not good. But it may be that soft shifting is exactly what should be happening...if your responses are "I have soft shifting also" then my car is no different than yours. That is what I am hoping you guys will help me find out. Thanks again.

[BillyGman]

"Soft" is a relative term. so in this case I guess it's kind of like the age old question...."Is your car loud with the Magnaflow mufflers?".... Whatever 'soft" or "Loud" is to you, might not be what it is to me or someone else. I'd seek out another Trilogy equiped Marauder owner if I were you like Chuck has suggested in his post. As for my car, the only thing I can tell you, is that second gear does NOT shift "soft" at all. but it doesn't shift hard. It's a "firm" shift Like Chuck described that is a little bit harder than the stock programing was. But it hits third gear definately softer than second. Lidio said that it's difficult to work with thw third gear shifts through programing alone. But it isn't bad enough for me to have any concern at all. I hope this helps you.:o

[Smokie]

"Soft" is a relative term.You are right, this is a dead end. Thanks for the responses.

[Bradley G]

I can not speak first hand about the difference between Lidio's line pressure on a N/A MM and a S/C MM.
I followed (barley) a new Trilogy owner through the streets of So. Wisconsin yesterday during his introduction of forced induction.
Except for the TMS KIT, He is bone stock other wise.Massive wheel spin on Launch :bows:
I did not see his wheels chirp shifting 1-2 like mine does(Lidio's 4:10 base performance tune)
I am not bragging< I am just explaining what I saw.
It may be like Billy said that, N/A has a stronger or more agressive shift pressure,
Due to all the extra power the Trilogy S/c provides,Shift pressure may have to be set a little lower for durability.
Maybe Lidio will chime in here, If not call him and let us know what you find out.
Thanks Smokie!
Does this mean you held the go fast pedal all through the gears?:eek:

[Smokie]

Does this mean you held the go fast pedal all through the gears?:eek:The only shifts I know about at WOT are 1-2 and 2-3. The 3-4 shift at WOT is at about 140 mph....not me, not that brave ...or crazy.:D

[MikesMerc]

In regards to the 1-2 shift and only the 1-2 shift at WOT.

If you have read my posts long enough you will know that I am not prone to exageration, the 1-2 shift at WOT feels too much like it is gradually sliding into 2nd.

This is actually not uncommon. I experienced the same thing when I upped the power on my kit, and Lidio has had others comment about the same thing. In addition, the way the 03 and 04 transmissions respond to the tweak is different.

What is happening is that the trans is being overpowered a little. Every car is a little different, and depending on the power being made, the clutch pressures that Lidio assigns in the stock kit chip aren't always perfect. The 1-2 shift is prone to being "dragged out" when the tranny is overpowered by the motor. All you need to do is have Lidio firm up the shift a bit more.

One thing to keep in mind, is that every time you add more power, you might need to have the shift firmness addressed. What works good for NA isn't firm enough for SC kind of power. And a modded SC car needs even more firmness.

I finally reached the point power wise where my 1-2 was still mushy under WOT even with the setting maxed in the computer. A shift kit finally cured that.

Call Lidio and have him firm up the shift for you.

[BillyGman]

I followed (barley) a new Trilogy owner through the streets of So. Wisconsin yesterday during his introduction of forced induction.
Except for the TMS KIT, He is bone stock other wise.Massive wheel spin on Launch :bows:
I did not see his wheels chirp shifting 1-2 like mine does(Lidio's 4:10 base performance tune)
I am not bragging< I am just explaining what I saw.
It may be like Billy said that, N/A has a stronger or more agressive shift pressure,
My Marauder will not chirp second gear at WOT unless perhaps I shift it manually. But that was also the case before the car was supercharged since I didn't have (nor ever cared to have) one of those tunes that had the shifts hitting so hard that it would rock you back in the seat even at half throttle. I wouldn't like that myself, and I think it's hard on the rest of the drivetrain anyway. Hard shifts never impressed me much. To me what good is your car shifting harder than mine does if my car walks right past yours with the greatest of ease during a race? Anyway, it's like I said, the Trilogy kit will have your transmission shifting slightly harder than the factory stock tuned program did. But not extremely hard at all.

[Smokie]

This is actually not uncommon. I experienced the same thing when I upped the power on my kit, and Lidio has had others comment about the same thing. In addition, the way the 03 and 04 transmissions respond to the tweak is different.

What is happening is that the trans is being overpowered a little. Every car is a little different, and depending on the power being made, the clutch pressures that Lidio assigns in the stock kit chip aren't always perfect. The 1-2 shift is prone to being "dragged out" when the tranny is overpowered by the motor. All you need to do is have Lidio firm up the shift a bit more.

One thing to keep in mind, is that every time you add more power, you might need to have the shift firmness addressed. What works good for NA isn't firm enough for SC kind of power. And a modded SC car needs even more firmness.

I finally reached the point power wise where my 1-2 was still mushy under WOT even with the setting maxed in the computer. A shift kit finally cured that.

Call Lidio and have him firm up the shift for you.Mike, I really apreciate your response, it seems you understood my concern exactly and your explanation mirrors my thinking. That is exactly what I believe is happening, the amount of power is overcoming the line pressure and I am sliding into second, I will contact Lidio after the holidays and see what he can do. Thanks.

[Bradley G]

LOL,

Yeah, I did mean 1-2 & 2-3, WOT 3-4 is not advised for the cars' safety, as well as ours!
Bradley G


The only shifts I know about at WOT are 1-2 and 2-3. The 3-4 shift at WOT is at about 140 mph....not me, not that brave ...or crazy.:D

[MikesMerc]

Mike, I really apreciate your response, it seems you understood my concern exactly and your explanation mirrors my thinking. That is exactly what I believe is happening, the amount of power is overcoming the line pressure and I am sliding into second, I will contact Lidio after the holidays and see what he can do. Thanks.

You're welcome.

And, just FYI to everyone reading the thread, it is important that you get the issue addressed if the slippage is significant. Firmer shifts are MUCH easier on the trans. Too much slip and you end up with lots of heat and burned bands.

[BillyGman]

You're welcome.

And, just FYI to everyone reading the thread, it is important that you get the issue addressed if the slippage is significant. Firmer shifts are MUCH easier on the trans. Too much slip and you end up with lots of heat and burned bands.I haven't any argument with that. i guess it's a matter of whether it really is soft shifting to the point where it's actually slipping, or just firm shifts that aren't head snapping.The head snapping shifts aren't neccessary. they might be preferred by some people, but it isn't like your transmission will suffer if it isn't shifting so hard that the tires are breaking loose. That's the only thing that I was trying to get across. Otherwise, your point is well taken.

[Lidio]

Guys….



The shift scheduling and firmness that comes in the Trilogy tune is set up to better accommodate the new found power and operating range of the roots blower as best as possible.

For the most part shift timing is what I always felt was right for general consumption on a MM once a Trilogy was added with 3.55’s or 4.10’s in the axle. The stock trans if already good shape and maintained, can handle an out of the box Trilogy or even a little more with just trans computer tuning alone, especially if it has a 4.10 or bigger in the axle. The 4.10’s do make the trans feel like its shifting much harder because of its better mechanical advantage.

The WOT 1-2 shift is as hard as I can make it with tuning alone once a Trilogy is added. They really don’t bark or hit super hard any more with a Trilogy on the 1-2 shift at WOT. Its just the way that it is. Although with not to much more power added at this point, its been proven to be fine. The 2-3 shift can be made to shift very hard with computer programming alone with a major power adder and even OD to some extent, but its not recommended going into OD at WOT on the Ford 4R70W with big power. For some reason the MM trans can not be made to shift super harsh into 2nd once your at greater then 325-350 RWHP through computer tuning alone. Although they’re OK still and does not lead to any short term failure letting it go. It is still a positive and good shift.

What we do when we feel like its just not a hard enough 1-2 shift because of to much power or a slightly wore trans is simply modify the 1-2 shift accumulator. The MM trans does not need a full blown shift kit when a Trilogy has been added because the rest of the shifts can be harshended up very good at WOT, only the 1-2 shift in some cases needs attention.

This is were things can be comes touchy with shift feel and personal preferences. When you start to do shift kits and J-mod’s etc… which do have a time and a place. It starts to mess with how the trans shifts and feels at part throttle too. This is where it gets tough to get the shifts back to feeling nice and some what firm at light throttle and of course rock solid at WOT. This is the area where its becoming difficult for me through mail order to accommodate the guys who have gotten into the trans or valve body for firmer shifts and then want the “not to harsh shifts” at low throttle angles.

Looser converters tend to absorb overly harsh shifts a ton, and don’t lead to as much shift firmness retuning if the trans is set up to shift very hard. But as I’ve said before, for the most part a trilogy equipped car doesn’t need a looser converter and a lot of guy would agree that overly loose converters tend to take some thing from the street-ability of a some cars (sorry Billy). I’m not opposed to them at all in a lot of applications, my 05 GT has a 3300-3500 stall now too.

I have a decent data base of what to do in some of these scenario’s but personal prefence’s ( understandably ) can make this difficult and frustrating going back and forth with chips or tunes. This is why I tend to bow out with the mail order guys who want to “step up” their cars way above and beyond the basics of what’s included in what we do initially and minor upgrades or tweaks. It tends to lead to a custom on the spot computer tune weather you come to us or find some one locally to help out. Its not that I cant handle the cars that are getting more and more stepped up, believe me... we do lots of them, it just that it tends to better protect my shop and my good name when I dont try to do things that in the end cant be done with out a "real time" custom tune.


Thanks

[MikesMerc]

Thanks for the clarification Lidio. Good info!

I should also point out that all Lidio did to mine to get the shift firmness I wanted was the simple 1-2 accumulator mod...not a full shift kit. I should have been more specific.

The 1-2 accumulator mod is a very nice compromise for shift firmness. No head snapping, tire breaking stuff. Just a nice firm shift.


Lidio, so that I am clear with what to advise others, I think you are saying that there is "no more room" to further firm up the 1-2 shifting in the stock Trilogy chip tune...correct? What would your advice to Smokie be if he feels his shifts are still too soggy?

[Smokie]

Guys….

The WOT 1-2 shift is as hard as I can make it with tuning alone once a Trilogy is added. They really don’t bark or hit super hard any more with a Trilogy on the 1-2 shift at WOT. Its just the way that it is.
ThanksLidio, if I read you correctly, the slipping into second gear is a problem with my transmission, there is no tuning adjustment possible, correct? Javier.

[MikesMerc]

Javier,

Hopefully Lidio will pop back and clear this up shortly. I do know this though...he was able to firm up my shifts beyond what came with the stock Trilogy tune. I had the soggy 1-2 at first, and a quick calibration adjustment had me cured.

Now, there are three variables that I had that are different from your situation. One, I was right there at his shop for the adjustment so the seat-of-the-pants meter was used to fine tune things. Two, I was still using the old Diablo chip that originally came with the Trilogy kit. Now that I read Lidio's post, it is likely that Lidio has fine tuned his tune (along with moving to the SCT chip) and he has already set the tune for max shift firmness (which I think is exactly what he is saying). Three, you have an aftermarket TC that maybe affecting the situation.

Hopefully he'll has a direct response for you shortly.

[SergntMac]

Lidio, if I read you correctly, the slipping into second gear is a problem with my transmission, there is no tuning adjustment possible, correct? Javier.What I read in Lidio's reply, is that he has a personal maximum, or, limit for how the car will shift after install. In a way, he's saying this is a generic tune that provides base performance to the kit, and if the owner wants more, Lidion can tailor the tune at a later time. It makes sense to me, how far can you tune, when the kit may be installed on a dozen different MMs due to changes in gears and so on.

If your tranny was slipping, Javier, speed sensors in the tranny will report the slip, and your OD light will flash a code.

[Lidio]

There is no more room to firm up the shift at WOT for the 1-2 shift on a MM with a Trilogy in the supplied tune. If you have a looser then stock TQ converter this will make the shift feel even soggier or potentially like its slipping during up shifts. Some people think its a slip when in reality its just not firm or positive enough for some people's taste. With out actually feeling what smokie is describing its hard to say what he is sensing is a bad thing or just personal preference or an opining.

All I can say is that if he (Smokie) does not have a looser after market converter and his trans is in good shape... which I might add I personally thought it was in good shape back in March when I drove his car NA in FL. Then he should have nothing to worry about unless he's stepped up the boost and/or does have a new stall converter. Then mechanical intervention is the next move to better solidify the shifts at WOT providing there isn’t any thing wrong with the trans that I cant diagnose from here. I would then consider the 1-2 accumulator trick I do or a Baumann shift kit of the J-Mod.


Thanks

[BillyGman]

Guys….



The shift scheduling and firmness that comes in the Trilogy tune is set up to better accommodate the new found power and operating range of the roots blower as best as possible.

a trilogy equipped car doesn’t need a looser converter and a lot of guy would agree that overly loose converters tend to take some thing from the street-ability of a some cars (sorry Billy). I’m not opposed to them at all in a lot of applications, my 05 GT has a 3300-3500 stall now too.

No reason to be "sorry" at all Lid. Your post was in agreement and lined up with just about everything I've been saying in this entire thread. As far as my increased stall speed of 3,000 RPM's on my Trilogy equipped Marauder goes, I agree with you that the Trilogy set-up probably doesn't need that.I'm sure that my car benefits more from the 4.56 gears than it does from the 3,000 RPM stal speed. I had the new torque converter with the higher stall speed installed long before I ever thought I was going to supercharge it. Had I known I was going to get a Trilogy kit, I never would've bothered with a few things that I had previously done to my car including the aftermarket torque converter. But oncve I had decided to purchase and install the Trilogy kit, I didn't think the higher stall speed would be detrimantal enough to merit having to remove the torque converter, and I believe I was correct on that. Because while my transmission did have the shift points softened slightly by the higher stall speed BEFORE the supercharger installation, it wasn't anything that I couldn't live with since neck snapping shifts aren't my preference anyway. And it's still fine now that I've supercharged my car.

But that doesn't mean that I'd neccessarily recommend to people that they get a higher stall speed if they're going with the Trilogy set-up. And I understand why you went with an even higher stall speed with your 05 Mustang Gt. It's because you chose a centrifugal supercharger for that car, and with those, you need a higher stall speed to get the car moving real good off the line than you'll ever need with a roots supercharger like the Trilogy one. So you and I are in full agreement about all of this.

Javier, after all of this discussion, if you still really think that there's some problem (although it doesn't sound to me like there is) then I think you should see if you can drive or atleast get a ride in another Trilogy customer's Marauder so that you can compare your shifts. Particularly one who doesn't have taller gears in the rear end than you do, because that could be another variable.

[Smokie]

Lidio, thank you for responding. Guys I am very grateful for the input...truly I am. I am not trying to make this a major issue. I thought there was room to increase line pressure, I trust Lidio when he says there is not.

I need to continue to drive the car and get some time behind the wheel and see if is something that I can grow accustomed to. As Lidio stated, there was nothing wrong with my transmission in March when he tuned my car, and there is nothing wrong with my transmission now. I have the STOCK gears and the STOCK torque converter.

The 1-2 shifts are the same as in my CrownVic, there is nothing WRONG with my C/V transmission, it shifts smooth as silk. I have grown used to the very firm WOT shifts of my MM. when it was N/A. It now shifts 1-2 at WOT smooth as silk
and I am not used to that at all and it surprised me.

If I am not able to get used to what I have now, than I realize that I have no choice but to go into the transmission.

Again, I thank you all for your input.