Stage II/Dyno stats on Torque Converter and Drive Shaft

[SergntMac]

This is a follow-up to my previous post STAGE II/Dyno Stats on Pulleys and Plugs. I hope this 411 helps out in your decision to mod your MM.

I've added the Precision Industries Stallion torque converter, and a DynoTech metal matrix drive shaft, and returned to the Dyno for the clinical stuff. Here's a few links to the products.

http://www.converter.com/stallion.htm

http://www.reinhartautomotive.com/products.ivnu#metalmatrixdrive shafts

These products are available through Dennis Reinhart. You order from him, the products are made to his specs, and shipped directly to you via UPS, about two weeks. Please call Dennis for pricing, commercial over.

My goal in my project MM is to move the 302HP/318TQ power numbers from the flywheel, to the rear wheels, without cracking into the motor or tranny. Yes, I could supercharge now and get there all at once, but these mods would follow anyway, so, while we're all waiting for the right S/C package, I'm taking care of the small stuff now. I should add that the higher I get in performance gains from these "bolt-on" mods, the lower the gains are. Stage I mods deliver double digit gains, Stage II is delivering single digits, and this would be my expectation in fine tuning a factory muscle car. The fine tuning is going so well, that there's not much left for me to accomplish with my MM in NA form.

My last Dyno wrapped up the Stage I mods, as well as the pulleys and Denso plugs of Stage II. My numbers came in at 273RWHP, 301RWTQ and an AFR of 13.47 Today's stats are not remarkably different, 275 RWHP, 301 RWTQ and an AFR of 12.7 No big deal, eh? "But, wait, there's more! Just when you thought you heard it all!"

You guys remember launching your MM in bone stock form? Remember that lag in the lower RPMs that seemed to almost slow the car down until you hit 4000RPM? I remember the words posted here, and some of us were so outright disappointed, that we got angry with LM, and considered the whole concept a fraud. However, I remember my old days in street racing, and lessons in launching a heavy car. It's problematic, and not always solved by adding gobs of HP and TQ. That's one approach, yes, but moving 4200 pounds from a standing start quick enough to win a race, is quite a tough job for a 281 CID motor. That's physics, now how to deal with it?

In the first block of driving my MM with the Stallion, I knew it was the right choice. I didn't need a dyno report to see the power, I could feel it in my "seat-of-my-pants" meter. Launching her the way I did before the Stallion, has to change. I braked into 3500 RPM and just sat there, burning up the tires. The power is at the wheels now, where I wanted it, at in the low RPMs too. I'm going to have to learn how to launch her all over again, and if I'm looking for serious and accurate 1/4 mile times, slicks are a must. All around the town street racing, it will have to be a set of tacky drag radials, and B.F. Goodrich now makes them in our RW size.

http://www.bfgoodrichtires.com/bfgapp/catalog/tires/gforcetadragradial.jsp

What I can see in my dyno report, is a major shift of my power band to lower RPMs. My very first dyno pegged my power band at 4500 RPMs, through 6000 RPM. You owners know what I'm saying, the 30 MPH punch is like a sling shot, right? Well, while other mods built HP and TQ, and freed up some losses from rotational mass dead weight, the Stallion gets that power to the rear end much, much sooner in the power band. My dyno sheet indicate I'm into my power at 3450 RPM, and out at 5750 RPM, and that's where I want to be with a heavy car.

The motor spins up faster, much faster than bone stock, and the power begins at 3450. The Stallion has a 3500 RPM stall, so my launch is light brake, quick, and dirty, and you're gone. The shift points are dead on, the 1-2 shift brings you right back to 3500 RPM, and you're gone again.

The Stallion is worth every penny, start saving them now. It bolts in, all you have to swap out is the mounting studs for the custom bolts provided. It feeds on standard FMC MerkonV fluid too.

I expect to get some teasing on the drive shaft swap, and that's okay. My advice has always been to not change or replace anything on this car, until you can prove it faulty, or prove it a performance gain. With the added power and the delivery to the rear wheels, adding slicks or drag radials puts a lot of stress back on the axels, differential, and drive shaft. I expect the axels and stuff will take it fine, but the OEM shaft (and PI shaft) were not designed for this kind of torture, and this upgrade is appropriate.

My "prove it" attiude stands, and that's what I'm trying to accomplish in this testing. Sorry about the long winded posts from The Big Windy, but here's your proof. Proof that these mods work to fine tune one great American muscle car. Now, go build her and enjoy her...Safely.

Stage III mods are intake and exhaust, and I'm waiting on parts and development.

e-mail comments to SergntMac@aol.com

[MAD-3R]

Well done sarge, well done.

\My wife ordered Stage one, and the pullys and plugs from stage two for me yesterday. I hope to have them in and road tested by the end of next week. WIth the amount of trq your shoving through the drive shaft, I would think you took one to many doughnuts to the head NOT to go with the new Driveshaft. Screw the "proven performance" just for piece of mind. Now, a driveshaft loop.

[Macon Marauder]

Very, very cool. I'm impressed. And a little jealous...

[Ray Snyder]

Very good report, Now I know where to go next.

[Murader03]

Sarge, :bounce: as usual has proveided us with another well worded and informative update of his mods. I thought I was going to leave mine alone as is with the plugs, chip, and gears, but then Sarge copmes along and gives us another worth whilke mod. :D God! Come on spring. Now I'll have to see if my local shop will install the TC. Still unsure of the pullies though......

[WolfeBros]

Another great option to consider. Thanks for the leg work Sarge. :up:

[Diocles]

In my short time on this board I've learned a ton. But the epiphany that has finally broken through is what you guys knew all the time:
MAC IS THE MAN!

On a sidelight, I always thought the advantage of the after market drive shaft was in the balancing. With a change in gears the rotational speed picks up and a poorly (all chevys except the vette) balanced shaft will ruin your day. I know this was a necessity when changing gears on the impalas.

[MAD-3R]

Ahh the driveshaft debate.....
The PRIMARY reason to replace the shaft, is balance. But torsion(sp?) streingth should not be ignored. And sence Mac wants to build with the best, he does.

[Vince Gortner]

Dang.

I hate it when I'm away from the forum for more than a few hours. I miss all kinds of stuff.

I met up with the Sarge just as he was headed home from the latest dyno testing and he looked pretty happy. We talked numbers a bit and he said, "Well, you've got to drive it to really get the effect." I said something about low end torque blah, blah or something and he said, "No. I mean you drive the car now to tell me what you think."

Oh. OK! :D

This is better. I thought the wheels were spinning or the trans was slipping because the revs just came up so much faster. Definitely feels like the engine is much happier attached to less junk. Definitely has more of the low end grunt we're looking for. Great job Sarge! You've assembled a nice car.

[cyclone03]

Ok Sarge!
Now I got to ask,remember when I asked which would 1/4 mile quicker gears only or converter? Well OFF THE LINE which do you feel had the greatest effect,the gear change or the converter?I know it may be apples to oranges because it is now a complete package,but do you think the converter really did change the feel of the car the same as the gear change did?

Now I think you may want to rethink your statement that the rear axles should be fine.

The Mustang world uses the same internals in the rear as the Maruader,our axles are longer but there still only 28 spline.MY Mustang speed shop buds say drop the 28's for a set of 31's use aftermarket street strip parts from Moser.Install a 31 spline trac loc,it's a stock Ford part,there reasoning behind using the trac loc over maybe some of the other difs is because they're cheap and rebuildable with oem parts.And they work great on the street and the track.

I think with your new found usable rear wheel torque good axles should be up on the list.Zero hp/tq gain but you'll be able to drive home from the track a few more times. :D

The first year I went to Fun Ford Dallas the Mustang guys where spitting 28 spline axles left and right,the next year i took 4 SETS of stock 28's and sold all 8 of them,$50 ea.! Next year I didn't sell any! They still break rears but not as many.

[89lxbill]

Hey, can you post a pic of your dyno sheet? My friend has the same mods and he is curious about the dyno output.

[Reaper948]

Excellent, Sarge

Im just wondering how much the stallion put up on the car...bc I thought I saw the same stats before you had the TC in?

[SergntMac]

Originally posted by cyclone03
Ok Sarge! Now I got to ask,remember when I asked which would 1/4 mile quicker gears only or converter? Well OFF THE LINE which do you feel had the greatest effect,the gear change or the converter?I know it may be apples to oranges because it is now a complete package,but do you think the converter really did change the feel of the car the same as the gear change did?

Now I think you may want to rethink your statement that the rear axles should be fine.

The Mustang world uses the same internals in the rear as the Maruader,our axles are longer but there still only 28 spline.MY Mustang speed shop buds say drop the 28's for a set of 31's use aftermarket street strip parts from Moser.Install a 31 spline trac loc,it's a stock Ford part,there reasoning behind using the trac loc over maybe some of the other difs is because they're cheap and rebuildable with oem parts.And they work great on the street and the track.

I think with your new found usable rear wheel torque good axles should be up on the list.Zero hp/tq gain but you'll be able to drive home from the track a few more times.

Well, Cyclone, I'm not sure how to answer you, it is apples and oranges. I did not pull out the 4:10 to test the TC alone, so, maybe someone who installs the TC first can give you their impression. The TQ and 4:10 function differently, but let me give your question some consideration. I know you know this stuff, Cyclone, but maybe someone else does not, bear with me.

The 4:10 is a power "translator," i.e. what power comes in, gets multiplied 4X and sent out. The translation is fixed and constant, whether I'm moving 5 MPH or 55 MPH, cruising or WOT, the 4:10 finctions the same always. It's always there, always on, always doing exactly the same thing.

The TC is a power translator too, but it's translation is not fixed or constant, because it sometimes slips, and sometimes locks up. The TC uses this slippage to transfer power, and the benefit of the Stallion TC, is that it slips less and locks up more than the OEM. It's also very much lighter, I'd say 30-35 pounds lighter, which also reduces overall rotational mass dead weight. In an upside-down way, this means more power for launching the car, in that it allows more power to get to the rear wheels.

Which one is better you ask? Can't say. I do recall my first driving impression of the 4:10s, and it was like "wow". Ditto that "wow" from adding the TC. If the gears geve me, say, a 25% boost in in the butt-o-meter, the Stallion TC delivered a second 25% boost. That's as good as I can explain it, and also why I am using a dyno to find out what's happening, and where.

Thanks for the advice on the axels and diff., however, those mods are outside the parameters of my project. I want to keep it all "bolt-on," and see what power is available over the counter. Now, before you go there, the TC is not inside the tranny, like a shift/valve kit would be. Likewise, the 4:10 is not an invasive mod, it's available at any FMC parts counter, and it's used in a variety of FMC applications, therefore, while technically "inside" the rear end, it's still just a bolt on mod that can be unbolted without leaving any permanent changes behind. I might add that Mensrea's MM is putting out twice the power I am, and his OEM stuff seems to be holding up nicely.

89lxBill...You have a "friend" who has an MM with my identical mods, and he's not signed up here? Shame on you! Sorry, I'm not one to share dyno sheets over the 'net, they are too easily perverted and abused. However, if your "friend" needs some advice, have him drop me a note at SergntMac@aol.com with his questions, I'll do what I can to helpout. It would be better for him, 89, to just go get a dyno on his own MM. Every car will perform differently, "your results may vary" as they say.

Reaper...what? I'm not getting your question...Sorry, try again?

[martyo]

Mac: I have been following your posts on the T/C subject very carefully. This is an area that is outside of my experience and knowledge.

When I did my gears, etc., last week, the owner of the speed shop that I used said to have Dennis reprogram the chip to "unlock" the torque converter or just replace the T/C altogether. I am not sure I understood what he meant as I thought that the idea was to get the T/C to lock up sooner. The labor cost on the replacement is not too high and I haven't spoken to Dennis on the cost of the new T/C yet, but given what i have done so far, I don't think that this mod is something that I would mind paying for. I assume that the chip reprogramming that the mechanic suggests is quick and dirty and will not be as effective as a complete replacement of the T/C. Also, does the chip need reprogramming for the new T/C anyway? I am definitely in over my head here, so comments please...

Also, I will be "losing" one of my cars soon which means that the MM will get more daily use. Have you found that the new T/C changes driveability/streetability (assuming that I did not make a drag race out of going from one light to the next every time)?

[SergntMac]

Originally posted by martyo
Mac: I have been following your posts on the T/C subject very carefully. This is an area that is outside of my experience and knowledge.

When I did my gears, etc., last week, the owner of the speed shop that I used said to have Dennis reprogram the chip to "unlock" the torque converter or just replace the T/C altogether. I am not sure I understood what he meant as I thought that the idea was to get the T/C to lock up sooner. The labor cost on the replacement is not too high and I haven't spoken to Dennis on the cost of the new T/C yet, but given what i have done so far, I don't think that this mod is something that I would mind paying for. I assume that the chip reprogramming that the mechanic suggests is quick and dirty and will not be as effective as a complete replacement of the T/C. Also, does the chip need reprogramming for the new T/C anyway? I am definitely in over my head here, so comments please...

Also, I will be "losing" one of my cars soon which means that the MM will get more daily use. Have you found that the new T/C changes driveability/streetability (assuming that I did not make a drag race out of going from one light to the next every time)?

Changing TC behavior via the chip is one way to squeeze a bit more performance out of your MM, but once the change is made, you live with it. I'd say this idea isn't in your best interests, considering your MM is going to see more use on the street as a daily driver.

The Stallion is not only a more efficient TC, it's smaller and it weighs 25-30 pounds less than the OEM, and we've had that conversation. No changes to the chip are required, and it uses standard FMC MerkonV fluid. This is a genuine high performance product, that was designed to fit into our daily lives, and it's worth every penny. When the wifey is behind the wheel, she probably won't notice it. But, you will, when you visit your favorite on-ramp.

IMHO, The Stallion TC , is a must have mod on the MM.

[martyo]

That said, I know I have my VISA card around here somewhere....

Women of all sorts share one thing: They all cost ya!

[prchrman]

shoes...remembering EVERY MISTAKE YOU EVERY MADE..............

[89lxbill]

He does not have internet service. He is not computer smart. I was just going to print it and show it to him, but that's cool.

[martyo]

Willie: I stand corrected!!

Hey, can you do use NY'er's a favor and speak to the "big guy" and work out something for good weather on March 15th (we have our Meet on that day).

Thanks!!

[prchrman]

martyo...that's a tall order but consider it done...bring tanks, bermudas, flip flops, sun screen and cool rays...

[cyclone03]

Mac you answered my question perfectly.
I was interested in the Butt-o-meter reading,I wish I could be the guy that does the converter first without any other changes but I don't think it's going to happen for a while.

The axle swapp I mentioned involves most of the same labor that went into the gear change as a matter of fact they had the axles and diff out when they changed the ring gear.
I will stand by my statement though,don't trust them stock 28's to bring you home when you start using drag radials at the track.

As you have said the physics involved are working against you.

By the way you are going to Fun Ford Dallas for the first annual Marauder Meeting right? I want to ride in the Quickest N/A Marauder.

I hope you can resest the superchargers and continue to take the other road............

[89lxbill]

Nevermind....he took it to the dyno yesterday and ran 2 runs. 262rwhp and 310 rwtrq. Pretty good. I think he is ordering the Denso plugs next week from Dennis.

[BigMerc]

I gotta go see Dennis I guess, Sarge has convinced me into the Torque Converter, and I want a Cold Air Induction too, I'm so easy when it comes to these trinkets for the car, can't resist

[Matt Johnson]

What about the April "Car and Driver" article regarding Kenny Brown's Marauder-S wherein reviewer said they would forego torque converter (as well as a few other items KB installed)?

[SergntMac]

Originally posted by Matt Johnson
What about the April "Car and Driver" article regarding Kenny Brown's Marauder-S wherein reviewer said they would forego torque converter (as well as a few other items KB installed)?

This feels like you have something on your mind, but haven't finished asking your question. Please, continue?



NOTE ADDED AFTER POST:

Just a reminder, gents, the Stallion TC uses FMC MerkonV tranny fluid. If any of you are considering this TC mod, and you have synthetics in place (Amsoil), you'll have to switch back. Stallion TC uses ONLY MerkonV.

[Matt Johnson]

Sarge...

My question: Is it necessary to mod the tc if adding a supercharger?

The Car and Driver article seemed to be saying they felt it wasn't.

I'm asking this from the viewpoint of someone who uses the MM as a daily driver, has no interest in "racing" this car on a track, doesn't care if I chirp or smoke my tires in any way, doesn't want to completely kill the already horrible (in my opinion) gas mileage that this car gets stock, but would still like to get more power down low.

[SergntMac]

Originally posted by Matt Johnson
Sarge...My question: Is it necessary to mod the tc if adding a supercharger? The Car and Driver article seemed to be saying they felt it wasn't. I'm asking this from the viewpoint of someone who uses the MM as a daily driver, has no interest in "racing" this car on a track, doesn't care if I chirp or smoke my tires in any way, doesn't want to completely kill the already horrible (in my opinion) gas mileage that this car gets stock, but would still like to get more power down low.

I felt there was more to your question, Matt, thanks for asking again.

I've read the C&D summary a few times now, and I'll suggest that the writer isn't up to speed on a some points.

The 70 pound OEM 11" T/C suffers from "ballooning," and turns into a football at high RPM. Aggravate that with supercharging 150 new ponies and obscene gobs of new torque, along with a reasonable expectation that high RPMs will be visited on a regular basis, and the recipe for TC failure is written in stone.

The 9" billet steel 24 pound Stallion TC not only delivers more power throughout the RPM spectrum, it's built to guard against ballooning through 12,000 RPM. It's more efficient at delivering power throughout the RPM range, so, whether you're feathering the throttle on a rain-slicked highway, asking to pass at 50 MPH, or, hitting it WOT from a standing start, the Stallion delivers more raw power to the tranny than the OEM. Saving gas, or, winning a race, it's all the same to the Stallion. Of course, when you improve TC production, you also improve TC response and sensitivity. Simple logic dictates an adjustment in your driving habits.

For us NA owners, my opinion is that the Stallion delivers solid stable efficient performance from any standing start. If you are performance minded, or just concerned about MPG, the Stallion is a "must do" mod. The OEM TC will not deliver the full power potential developed with Stage I/II mods. If you supercharge, it's MANDATORY. The OEM TC will not live long under so much new power, and a sudden failure at high RPM will result in costly damage. A 70 pound ballooned "football" that lets loose at 6000RPM, will come through your floor. Wouldn't that be fun...

The writer expressed confusion over the shifting habits of the KB-S, and noted that against the cost of the Stallion TC, as he also measured the KB-S suspension changes against cracks in the pavement. Not really a fair contrast-comparasion, this isn't a GM with a trim package, nor is it a Jensen. To me, it's a sign that the writer isn't much of a true performance DRIVER, and he didn't spend much time behind the wheel of this KB-S MM. What he noted, is expected, and what I am living with now. The fix is easy, learn new driving habits/skills, as we have with the Stage I/II mods we now enjoy. A few days in a variety of traffic conditions, and it will all smooth out.

If all you want to do, Matt, is get better MPG, the Stallion TC will provide that for you. In fact, all the mods suggested in Stage I/II will improve MPG. All of them add up to more forward movement, in less time, for less gas burned. How YOU drive your MM after mods, is where your gas will get burned. If you really learn how to drive her right, you'll improve MPG, but you will get spoiled too.




Okay, wait a minute, wait just a damn minute here...This just fell into my head...

Matt...You're not fooling me anymore, or, anyone reading here. If you're getting poor MPG now, you're doing stuff with your Lady the wifey doesn't see.

Go ahead, buy your mods, and explain to her how these improve efficiency and safety. Your proof is here, you lie, I'll swear to it, okay?

Now, drop her off at the mall and stop at the next phone booth you see. Fold the horned rim glasses into your breast pocket, and take off the suit.

Yup, I knew it, that's the same blue shirt and red cape we're all wearing, when wifey isn't around. So, go earn your red "S," okay? We won't tell...promise.

[Matt Johnson]

Okay...so I AM interested in much more than just MPG.

(I wish C&D would have had YOU review the KB Marauder-S).

[Matt Johnson]

But my next question to you, Sarge, is what "Stage" have you given to suspension mods? I would think you'd be feeling the need for some tweaking already.

(Sorry moderator, move this post to create new thread if need be.)

[SergntMac]

Originally posted by Matt Johnson
But my next question to you, Sarge, is what "Stage" have you given to suspension mods? I would think you'd be feeling the need for some tweaking already. (Sorry moderator, move this post to create new thread if need be.)

Opened a new thread on this, hope y'all enjoy.

http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1943

[Katmandu]

it's built to guard against ballooning through 1200 RPM.

Typo I hope ?? :P :P

BTW.... What is the Stall speed of the OE TC ?? :confused: :confused:

Anyone want to donate your old used OE TC to a MM "wannabe" car ?? :cool: :D

[SergntMac]

Got to fix that, thanks.

Stall is 3500

[Katmandu]

Originally posted by SergntMac
Stall is 3500
That's for the Stallion TC...Right ?? What about the Stall speed for the OEM Maruader Torque Converter ??

I'm looking for an inexpensive TC upgrade for my P71 (CV Police Interceptor).

BTW, how many mounting holes does a Marauder TC have ??

[SergntMac]

2500...4

[Katmandu]

2500...4

4 ?? confused: :confused:

CVs/GTs/Mark VIIIs have (6) and Cobras use (8) do to a different crankshaft.

[SergntMac]

Originally posted by Katmandu
That's for the Stallion TC...Right ?? What about the Stall speed for the OEM Maruader Torque Converter ??

I'm looking for an inexpensive TC upgrade for my P71 (CV Police Interceptor).

BTW, how many mounting holes does a Marauder TC have ??


Yes, Katmandu, "2500...4" are my answers to your questions posted here. The OEM torque converter on the MM is an 11" TC, with a 2500 stall speed, and it connects via 4 bolts. The OEM tranny on the MM, is the 4R70W. The motor on the MM is basically a 4.6L DOHC of Cobra design, but many things are proving different from other FMC products and the MM is looking "unique" in many ways. Please check your specs on for your P71 tranny to insure compatability. The Marauder is not a CV/GT/Mark VIII, or, Cobra.

BTW, many of the MM owners I have spoken with here, are not disposing of their OEM parts. The MM has a chance of being a rare automobile, and to be able to restore one to her true OEM "bone stock" status may prove valuable. However, you may get lucky too, in the E-Bay boneyard.

[Katmandu]

The Marauder is not a CV/GT/Mark VIII, or, Cobra

True.

In order for the MM to have (4) mounting bolts.

So you're saying then that the MM "should" have a special crankshaft with only (4) mounting bolt/holes (for the TC) correct ??

And the other 4.6 equipped platforms (also equipped with the 4R70W transmission) do NOT have this special feature of only (4) mounting bolt/holes ?? :confused: :confused:

[SergntMac]

Originally posted by Katmandu
True.

In order for the MM to have (4) mounting bolts.

So you're saying then that the MM "should" have a special crankshaft with only (4) mounting bolt/holes (for the TC) correct ??

And the other 4.6 equipped platforms (also equipped with the 4R70W transmission) do NOT have this special feature of only (4) mounting bolt/holes ?? :confused: :confused:

Are you making fun of me?

I have no idea how other "4.6 equipped platforms" are constructed, and that is why I suggested you check your specs. I know the Stallion TC is available for a wide variety of applications, perhaps they could help you cross referrence a correct fit, please give them a call.

My Stallion TC came with 4 bolts in the box that replaced 4 studs in the OEM TC. I didn't do the install myself, I only watched a certified LM wrench hook it up, and he used all four provided bolts to install it. That's all I know here, and only because it pertains to my MM.

I have no idea what a "P71" is, I'm not a mechanic by trade, nor have I spent any time with other FMC products. I'm a MM owner, who's trying to help other MM owners, with specific upgrades to a specific automobile, an automobile that has proven to be a custom design in many areas.

You're poking fun at me for not providing you with an answer, and that's not right. This is a Mercury Marauder site, the central theme here is one specific automobile. While many topics are reviewed in many threads and a strong knowledge and experience base is present, it's still about the Marauder.

If you have a question about a Marauder, you'll get an answer. The further away your question drifts, the less likely you will find your answer here. Don't pick at me for not knowing what you want to know, that's not going to get you anywhere.

[Katmandu]

If you have a question about a Marauder, you'll get an answer. The further away your question drifts, the less likely you will find your answer here. Don't pick at me for not knowing what you want to know, that's not going to get you anywhere.

Whoa!! Hold the phone there Sarge!! It's not my intention to pee on your leg here! I am in NO way dissing you Sir!

Let's back WAY up here just a sec......

I ask these questions for the good of everyone here. Granted some (NOT ALL) are MM owners.

BTW, your MM IS a "Panter platform" (Ford's designation for the platform) just the same as my P71 (Crown Vic Police Interceptor), Grand Marquis (of course).

Back to my original TC question... OK ??

Cobras (also a 4.6 DOHC) use a SPECIAL crankshaft that utilizes 8-Bolts to hold on the TC. The crankshaft IS different from which is supplied for the Lincoln Mark VIII (4.6 DOHC) which has a 6-Bolt crankshaft/TC flange.

Now..... a Mark VIII TC WILL adapt to the CV/GM line since BOTH share the 6-Bolt crank/TC flange.

Reportly, the MM has the "Detuned" Cobra engine..... Since the Mark VIII ALSO utilized a "Detuned" Cobra engine, it was my HOPE that the MM would also utilize a 6-Bolt crank/TC flange.

But, you are reporting that it may actually be a 4-Bolt crank/TC flange seems a tad bit odd which would not make sense since all the others are different. Granted the MM is a SPECIAL vehicle no doubt, but changing out cranks to a 4-bolt is REALLY strange!

I'm certain someone more knowledgable than BOTH of us will chime in to give us BOTH the facts.

Again Sarge, it's NOT my intention to Pee on your Wheaties! I also enjoy learning from your extremely valueable MM ventures! This site is for ALL MM owners/enthusists/future MM owner's alike. Is it not ??

[cyclone03]

I have to jump in here.
What sarge is talking about is the actual 4 mounting bolts that connect the TC to the FLYWHEEL.
Katmandu your thinking about the 6 or 8 bolts that hold the FLYWHEEL to the CRANKSHAFT.SOHC have 6,MOST DOHC have 8.
Stop fighting now.

[SergntMac]

Originally posted by Katmandu
This site is for ALL MM owners/enthusists/future MM owner's alike. Is it not ??

This site is open to anyone who wishes to participate, anyone.

I never suggested that this site has any restrictions on membership or posting whatsoever. I did point out that the central theme here, is the Marauder, and the further any question or topic drifts from that theme, the less likely it will get an adequate answer.

4 bolts came in the box with the Stallion, and my LM wrench used them to replace 4 studs the TC instructions said to remove. That's what I know, and that's what I posted.

I have learned enough about the Marauder, to know not to presume anything about it's design or construction. This is precisely why I post here, for the benefit of MM owners everywhere. I've investigated every popular Marauder mod available to date, and reported my findings.

What other FMC products use, or, how they connect, or, perform, isn't within the scope of my participation here. I should have said "if it isn't an MM, I don't know" and I'll try to remember that from now on.

[RF Overlord]

Originally posted by cyclone03
What sarge is talking about is the actual 4 mounting bolts that connect the TC to the FLYWHEEL.
Katmandu your thinking about the 6 or 8 bolts that hold the FLYWHEEL to the CRANKSHAFT.SOHC have 6,MOST DOHC have 8.
Stop fighting now.

^^^what cyclone03 said^^^

BTW, Sarge, P71 is the portion of the VIN that designates a Police Interceptor. Enthusiasts like to refer to their cars as "PIs" or "P71s" to distinguish them from the "civilian" versions.

[Katmandu]

Stop fighting now. Noone is :argue: . Simple misunderstanding. That is all. :P

Sorry to ruffle your feathers there Sarge. :alone: Here's to ya bud! :beer: :beer:


Originally posted by cyclone03
What sarge is talking about is the actual 4 mounting bolts that connect the TC to the FLYWHEEL.
Katmandu your thinking about the 6 or 8 bolts that hold the FLYWHEEL to the CRANKSHAFT.SOHC have 6,MOST DOHC have 8.
Stop fighting now.

Hmm.... I did not know that. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: Can someone point me to an exploded view of this setup ?? :help:

[Katmandu]

What sarge is talking about is the actual 4 mounting bolts that connect the TC to the FLYWHEEL.
Katmandu your thinking about the 6 or 8 bolts that hold the FLYWHEEL to the CRANKSHAFT

Herein lays the misunderstanding (on MY part).

I wasn't considering the actual Converter-to-Flywheel bolts....

It's my understanding that the Mark VIII utilizes a 6 bolt/crank (just like the SOHC) whereas the Cobra uses 8 bolt pattern (different crankshaft than the Mark VIII).

So which one does the MM use ??

[LincMercLover]

The crank is a four bolt main. Flywheel to crank has six bolts. TC to flywheel has four.

[Billatpro]

Originally posted by SergntMac
Are you making fun of me?

Naw Mac, if he was doin that he would have said something about your skirt! now thats not something I would ever say! well.......ok once or twice but not no more!

[Katmandu]

Originally posted by Billatpro
Naw Mac, if he was doin that he would have said something about your skirt!

I wasn't gonna say that! :shake: :P :P :coolman:

[RCSignals]

Originally posted by Billatpro
Naw Mac, if he was doin that he would have said something about your skirt! now thats not something I would ever say! well.......ok once or twice but not no more!

Careful now :P :cool:

[SergntMac]

Kat and I have worked things out, 'nuff said on bolts. ^5 Kat.

BTW guys, heading out to the dyno this morning to get some numbers on my new custom exhaust "system." I'm not expecting much in performance here, but we'll nail down some facts and fiction about turbo mufflers, eh? Watch for a new thread on this later today.

[prchrman]

Sargnt quote;
Watch for a new thread on this later today.

Is the thread to be called "The Evolution of the Marauder"

[SergntMac]

Originally posted by prchrman
Sargnt quote;
Watch for a new thread on this later today.

Is the thread to be called "The Evolution of the Marauder"

Well folks, I got more news. Not bad news, not good news, more like no news. Kept my noon appointment for today at the dyno, and after my 75 mile drive way out there, I'm told that the dyno is down because the tech that runs it, called in sick. Jeeze...You would think they could have given me a call, eh? Bet they would have called me, and billed me too, had I become sick and not given them the courtesy...Sorry, will keep you posted.

[WolfeBros]

Damn......sorry they didn't call you Sarge. The bastages.
I guess you can't get good service hardly anyplace anymore.
And frankly.......I don't understand it. They should give you some free time on the dyno for their little screw up. :(

[Katmandu]

Kat and I have worked things out, 'nuff said on bolts. ^5 Kat.

Roger that. Sarge is good people!http://www.crownvic.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/usa.gif

[FriendlySS]

What's the STR of that converter?

[Katmandu]

I just found this pic of a MM engine.

It has a (6) bolt crank/flywheel and has the (4) holes for the TC.

http://www.stangparts.com/products/images/inventory/3690.jpg