? for BOTH Dennis AND Lidio - TC Lockup

[the_pack_rat]

I started another thread about torque converter(TC) lock up ... but I guess you guys missed it.

What I'd like to know is ...

What is the behavior of the TC lockup on a STOCK MM ?.

Under what conditions/speeds/gears etc etc is it locked - unlocked ?.

What changes to these conditions are made in your programs ?.

From what I've read ... Lidio's TC philsophies are different then Dennis's. With Lidio's tune, I don't believe the TC locks until you hit a 63 MPH cruising speed in OD. Additionally, I've read that seems to help provide a bit more pep around town ... but it can also effect your gas mileage.

I've got the 9100 with Dennis's tune & I have NO complaints whatsoever, but they say that "variety is the spice of life" so I've been wondering how my MM might behave with a Lidio tune as well.

I don't really want to take a major hit on the gas mileage ... but I guess you don't really know until you try. I might enjoy the difference in TC behavior enough to forgive the gas mileage change ..... then again maybe I wouldn't.

Long story SHORT here ...

While I've yet to ever drive a stock 3.55 car w/a Lidio tune ... I get this feeling that what I will probably like the most at this point in time is ...

A COMPROMISE in the TC behavior of BOTH tunes combined so to speak.

If Lidios locks the TC at 63 MPH & Dennis locks his at 43 MPH(said ONLY as a comparison here - NOT as fact) .....

Then maybe I'd want mine set to lock around 53 MPH ... & perhaps in theory my MPG loss wouldn't be AS noticeable, & I'd still feel a lil more pep around town that has been said to occur w/a higher TC lock-up speed.

I'd appreciate if the both of you could try & shed some light on this.

In NO way shape or form am I unhappy with anything, nor am I trying to ruffle any feathers ... I'm just curious about the stock TC behavior specs VS your tunes.

Thanks !.

:beer:

[Rkammer]

I too would like to hear what the stock TC parameters are. I just got a Reinhart tune which I'm happy with but want to make some changes to suit my personal driving habits. Again, what is the stock settings of shift points, lockups and unlockups?

[1stMerc]

I too am very interested in this. I hope to be soon purchasing a tuner but am not sure who's programing would best suit my likes. Was out doing extended driving in the MM and since installing the Flowmaster 40 Deltaflows a couple of week ago the erratic tranny shifts are significantly more noticeable with the exhaust note (sounds like its bogging) Those of you who have driven manual trannies will know where of i speak. Would like the shift points a little further up the rpm range so the pipes can sing a little longer. Would like a slightly louder exhaust but only when the tranny is right.

Thanks for your info and thoughts...

[Lidio]

I’m pretty sure this is a topic for the garage but I’ll throw in my opining any way and the moderators can take it from here if they want.

Torque converter lock up in my opining is nothing more then a fuel economy feature for the most part.
When the converter locks, it basically makes the car feel like a stick shift car with the solid connection between the motor and the trans. This makes the car feel boggy and sluggish at light throttle at what I call intermediate speeds from 30-60mph.

When the converter is locked the only thing its doing for you is saving some MPG’s and making less heat in the trans because you get less fluid sheering in the converter. The additional heat build up is a non-issue in our MM’s with the stock converter because MM’s come with a very adequate trans cooler. And so do many other Ford products these days.

Until you drive a car that’s been tuned to not lock at all (which I don’t do entirely) or one to delay lock up until O.D. gear only… like I do at about 63+MPH… the difference is extremely noticeable, especially when just tipping into the pedal at any where from 35 to 60mph when normally the car will feel like its bogging a little until you stick your foot into it deep enough to force a down shift. When the converter is not locked under these condition the way I do, especially in O.D., you’ll find that you put less pedal into it at those 35-60mph speeds just to lightly accelerate or pass some one while still in O.D. not forcing a down shift. This, in not just my opining, makes for much better feeling drivability around town by using the converter to do what their meant to do…. Multiply torque.

The gas mileage takes a little bit of a hit not locking as frequently as stock, but not that bad if you don’t drive that rough all the time. Once you get over 60+ mph because the car is already moving faster and the engine rpms are slightly higher, it can better tolerate lock-up and not feel as bogged down when you just lightly tip into it to just accelerate moderately.


I’ve hated the way lock-up felt as early as back in 1989 when Ford introduced the E4OD in the F series trucks. This was one of their first fully electronically controlled transmissions for rear drive cars that had the ability to lock the converter as early as they wanted it to in any gear except maybe 1st. Those truck would lock the converter almost immediately after shifting into second gear and stay locked the rest of the time as it went into 3rd and then O.D. at light to medium and even full throttle. This felt horrible with only a 302 or the back then 300 six cylinder in the trucks.
Back then before we had the software we’ve had the last several years. I would simply put a manual electric switch to make it not lock at all until I wanted it to, which of course for me would be in OD gear at higher speeds. Later on though like around ’95 or ’96 we could no longer just put a manual switch to turn off lock-up because the computers got smarter and new that the converter was not locking and would set off a check engine light. Around this time is when the custom tuning software started to surface for us, and we begaine to do every thing we wanted with shift feel, shift timing, and of course lock-up all through the custom tune/chip.

My methods of not locking the converter like I do is some thing I’ve done for years now in lots of other Ford’s before I got deep into the MM’s. In the Mustang community I’ve practiced it for a while with no complaints. From a performance and drivability feel, the deletion of lock-up below 60ish MPH and not until O.D. gear is well liked.

Thanks and Happy Fathers day guys!!!

[Rkammer]

I’m pretty sure this is a topic for the garage but I’ll throw in my opining any way and the moderators can take it from here if they want.

Torque converter lock up in my opining is nothing more then a fuel economy feature for the most part.
When the converter locks, it basically makes the car feel like a stick shift car with the solid connection between the motor and the trans. This makes the car feel boggy and sluggish at light throttle at what I call intermediate speeds from 30-60mph.

When the converter is locked the only thing its doing for you is saving some MPG’s and making less heat in the trans because you get less fluid sheering in the converter. The additional heat build up is a non-issue in our MM’s with the stock converter because MM’s come with a very adequate trans cooler. And so do many other Ford products these days.

Until you drive a car that’s been tuned to not lock at all (which I don’t do entirely) or one to delay lock up until O.D. gear only… like I do at about 63+MPH… the difference is extremely noticeable, especially when just tipping into the pedal at any where from 35 to 60mph when normally the car will feel like its bogging a little until you stick your foot into it deep enough to force a down shift. When the converter is not locked under these condition the way I do, especially in O.D., you’ll find that you put less pedal into it at those 35-60mph speeds just to lightly accelerate or pass some one while still in O.D. not forcing a down shift. This, in not just my opining, makes for much better feeling drivability around town by using the converter to do what their meant to do…. Multiply torque.

The gas mileage takes a little bit of a hit not locking as frequently as stock, but not that bad if you don’t drive that rough all the time. Once you get over 60+ mph because the car is already moving faster and the engine rpms are slightly higher, it can better tolerate lock-up and not feel as bogged down when you just lightly tip into it to just accelerate moderately.


I’ve hated the way lock-up felt as early as back in 1989 when Ford introduced the E4OD in the F series trucks. This was one of their first fully electronically controlled transmissions for rear drive cars that had the ability to lock the converter as early as they wanted it to in any gear except maybe 1st. Those truck would lock the converter almost immediately after shifting into second gear and stay locked the rest of the time as it went into 3rd and then O.D. at light to medium and even full throttle. This felt horrible with only a 302 or the back then 300 six cylinder in the trucks.
Back then before we had the software we’ve had the last several years. I would simply put a manual electric switch to make it not lock at all until I wanted it to, which of course for me would be in OD gear at higher speeds. Later on though like around ’95 or ’96 we could no longer just put a manual switch to turn off lock-up because the computers got smarter and new that the converter was not locking and would set off a check engine light. Around this time is when the custom tuning software started to surface for us, and we begaine to do every thing we wanted with shift feel, shift timing, and of course lock-up all through the custom tune/chip.

My methods of not locking the converter like I do is some thing I’ve done for years now in lots of other Ford’s before I got deep into the MM’s. In the Mustang community I’ve practiced it for a while with no complaints. From a performance and drivability feel, the deletion of lock-up below 60ish MPH and not until O.D. gear is well liked.

Thanks and Happy Fathers day guys!!!Lidio, Thanks for the explanation and rationale for your method of programming TC lockup. I think most people are happy with yours (and Dennis') approaches. But could you answer Pack Rat's original question and list the speeds at which the TC locks and unlocks in 2nd, 3rd, and 4th gears in the stock computer? We don't want to know any proprietary tuner information but there seems to be a few of us that would like to tweak our computer tunes for our own individual driving habits. I, for one, would like to know what is stock so I can determine just how much I want to deviate from that baseline. Thanks for taking the time to inform us. :cool4:

[BUCKWHEAT]

Also, would the speed for OD lock up be lower for my 4:30 car than for a 3:55 car? 63mph vs. ???.


QUOTE=Rkammer]Lidio, Thanks for the explanation and rationale for your method of programming TC lockup. I think most people are happy with yours (and Dennis') approaches. But could you answer Pack Rat's original question and list the speeds at which the TC locks and unlocks in 2nd, 3rd, and 4th gears in the stock computer? We don't want to know any proprietary tuner information but there seems to be a few of us that would like to tweak our computer tunes for our own individual driving habits. I, for one, would like to know what is stock so I can determine just how much I want to deviate from that baseline. Thanks for taking the time to inform us. :cool4:[/QUOTE]

[Lidio]

The stock MM program pretty much locks the TC shortly after shifting into 2nd gear at light throttle and it stays locked the rest of the time as it upshifts into 4th gear. At very light throttle it might not lock at all below 30 to 35 mph and it will unlock in other gears as you tip into it depending on speed vs. pedal.

I know this is my opining and others agree but stock lock-up is way to low in MPH and to often below 60mph in any gear.


Thanks

[the_pack_rat]

Lidio,

Thanks for your input.

:beer:

[Justin00Stang]

It comes down to personal preference IMO. Leaving it open can make the car feel more reponsive, but the inefficiency and "looseness" of an open converter bothers me.

I prefer my converters to lock up pretty early. On my 97 F150 truck this helps MPG and keeps the trans cool when towing. On my mustang it also helps keep heat down, and feels better to me. If I want to pass I just ease into the throttle with the converter locked, build a little boost, and it pulls a long quite nicely.

I once had the oppratunity to test locked vs unlocked MPG on a Marauder, at highway speeds the loss with an open converter was about 2-3 MPG. Most people don't cruise below 63mph very often, and down at the lower MPH I think the loss would be less.

On my TT V6 Mustang I lock the converter at WOT right away. I was seeing about 5sec of converter slippage on the 2-3 shift, and pulling mid 125 MPHs (low 11s). Last time at the track I made some adjustments to the tune and got the converter to slip less on the 2-3, down to about 2sec of slipping, I pulled a mid 127mph and a faster ET. Given at 17psi my PI converter is probably the equiv of a 4000 stall, so it slips a lot. I once saw a stock 97 t-bird dyno runs open vs locked converter, locked made 10 more rwhp (which is a lot on a 200 rwhp car). I believe the converter needs to be locked at WOT in most cases, but on some lower HP cars or 4r70w cars where the gear ratios are very far apart it may be beneficial to delay lockup after shifts, or only lock at higher RPMs, so the car does not feel like its bogging, it all depends on the powerband of the car.

[Dennis Reinhart]

I agree its just what ever you prefer, and Lidio is as sharp as they come.:beer:

[Breadfan]

If I could ask a question...if one buys a tuner from either of the above mentioned, and they load it up with some of that shops custom tunes, can they edit one of the tunes to change the TC lockup speed?

Just wondering if such a parameter could be edited by the end user to allow tc lockup changes to made often without purchasing new custom programs for just a simple change.

Just curious...

[Rkammer]

If I could ask a question...if one buys a tuner from either of the above mentioned, and they load it up with some of that shops custom tunes, can they edit one of the tunes to change the TC lockup speed?

Just wondering if such a parameter could be edited by the end user to allow tc lockup changes to made often without purchasing new custom programs for just a simple change.
Just curious...
The answer is definitely yes. In the case of the SCT tuners, they offer a download that the end user can use which will make some changes to some parameters in the tunes including shift points and lock up parameters. Having said that, the end user needs to be very careful before making any changes that he doesn't totally understand. One slip of the mouse and serious engine or tranny damage could result. Just a word to the wise. The tuners mentioned will usually make changes to tunes for a very reasonable charge and sometimes without charge within a certain time after purchase. At least that's what I'm told.