Charging Woes

[Rider90]

Although its expected when running a 1000wx1 RMS (Yes RMS, Wes (http://www.jlaudio.com/amps/10001.html)) amp and 12" sub at high volumes. I'm looking for a solution to my late night dimming problem.

First I started off pricing out Capacitors for car audio, skeptical, I searched and found a car audio forum to search for the best advice. I came up with that most people do not like "Caps" since for a little more money I could upgrade to a 200a alternator, but what I am interested in for now is if THIS will work:

"The Big Three" (http://forum.sounddomain.com/forum/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f =5;t=007801;p=)

Please respond only if you know or have thought it through, what do you guys think? Should I do this, get a cap, or just get upgrade the alternator and hope I'm done with it?

[fastblackmerc]

Although its expected when running a 1000wx1 RMS (Yes RMS, Wes (http://www.jlaudio.com/amps/10001.html)) amp and 12" sub at high volumes. I'm looking for a solution to my late night dimming problem.

First I started off pricing out Capacitors for car audio, skeptical, I searched and found a car audio forum to search for the best advice. I came up with that most people do not like "Caps" since for a little more money I could upgrade to a 200a alternator, but what I am interested in for now is if THIS will work:

"The Big Three" (http://forum.sounddomain.com/forum/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f =5;t=007801;p=)

Please respond only if you know or have thought it through, what do you guys think? Should I do this, get a cap, or just get upgrade the alternator and hope I'm done with it?
The link didn't work for me.

I'd go the 200A alternator route. Eventhough it costs more, the installation is easy, you won't have to run any wires, you won't have to try and find mounting places for the caps (some of which are like 2 soda cans stacked end to end or bigger). Just my $0.02. :D

[twolow]

I've used caps but more for the fashion statement than for its usefulness. When doing a rack display its just expected to be there with the amps, wiring, and neon lights ;)

In my prime I had a bigger alternator, cap, and isolator switcher (to charge second battery).

Caps helped but not as much as that alternator would. Car audio shops like caps because its easier to do - most installers aren't exactly mechanics.

[grampaws]

Altenator first the capacitor will help protect the alt from

peak current draw during loud base notes...Lights will dim
when you exceed the current amperage rating for you Alt..
a second battery would be the last addition as it will have
a constant draw for charging even when it is not being used..
Alt first
at 200A will give you 2400 to 2800Watts more than enough
to run the stereo
cap second
additional battery last

[Warpath]

What's the stock amp rated at? I suggest the opposite. Try upgrading the wires first. It would be cheaper I think if it works. If it doesn't, at least you will have upgraded wires (in addition to the stock ones) for the new alternator. The new alternator may also increase front accessory hp consumption.

['03BlkMM]

Although its expected when running a 1000wx1 RMS (Yes RMS, Wes (http://www.jlaudio.com/amps/10001.html)) amp and 12" sub at high volumes. I'm looking for a solution to my late night dimming problem.

First I started off pricing out Capacitors for car audio, skeptical, I searched and found a car audio forum to search for the best advice. I came up with that most people do not like "Caps" since for a little more money I could upgrade to a 200a alternator, but what I am interested in for now is if THIS will work:

"The Big Three" (http://forum.sounddomain.com/forum/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f =5;t=007801;p=)

Please respond only if you know or have thought it through, what do you guys think? Should I do this, get a cap, or just get upgrade the alternator and hope I'm done with it?

If you have a dedicated power wire running to the amp then the "big three" will do nothing for your problem. With an amp that size I'm sure you have a dedicated power wire hooked up directly to the battery and not tied into the chassis wiring harness. You could upgrade the ground cable from the battery to the chassis for peace of mind, but I doubt that is the problem. You may already know a lot of this stuff but I'll go thru it anyway. The alternator regulates voltage at a higher level than the battery, so it will charge the battery. Your problem lies in the fact that your exceeding the current capability of the alternator and causing the voltage to drop down to the level of the battery. The alternator usually runs about .8V-1V higher output than the battery. So with that being said changing the battery as I have seen suggested will do nothing for your problem. When the voltage drops like this it lowers voltage and current to every other powered item on the car so your lights dim. The capacitor may give you enough storage at the higher voltage level to hold the voltage up during peak demands. But the capacitor is just a bandaid for a charging system that is not up to the task. So your best bet is the alternator! 2nd best bet is the Capacitor!

One other thing about the "Big Three". I do take issue with one of the benefits they state of the larger wiring reducing the strain on your vehicles charging system. I've seen this advertised before and its WRONG. I'm not saying its bad to increase the wire gauge as they are suggesting. Just that it will NOT reduce the strain on your vehicles charging system. Anytime you increase the gauge of the wire you decrease the resistance of the circuit, he even states this in his article. Decreased resistance in any circuit results in higher current flowing through that circuit. That current is supplied by the alternator in this circuit and that means the wattage demands on the alternator will be increased by lowering the resistance in the cables. It could actually make your light dimming problem worse. Once again I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing as long as the alternator is up to the task, just don't expect longer life out of your alternator because you increased the wire gauge.

[metroplex]

A 200A alternator will not help your situation. The higher current alternators (BTW 12V/200A alternators are considered puny by our standards) generally produce less output at idle vs the lower output alternators. So it will not help your dimming at idle!

Try running a battery with thick cables directly to the amp. Sort of a dual battery setup with the 2nd battery in your trunk CLOSE to your amp.

Another option is an ultra capacitor. They're very light and can handle duties like STARTING an engine!

[Rider90]

I have no problems at idle unless the volume is high. I can be driving with the RPMs above 2k with the stereo cranked and it still lacks power when the sub punches hard.

[Wires]

A 200A alternator will not help your situation. The higher current alternators (BTW 12V/200A alternators are considered puny by our standards) generally produce less output at idle vs the lower output alternators. So it will not help your dimming at idle!

Try running a battery with thick cables directly to the amp. Sort of a dual battery setup with the 2nd battery in your trunk CLOSE to your amp.

Another option is an ultra capacitor. They're very light and can handle duties like STARTING an engine! 1000W RMS - good grief. That's 83 amperes - average - not counting the momentary peaks and lulls. I don't think our stock alternators have 83 amperes to spare at ANY RPM.

But, Metro makes a good point - at idle, even a 200 ampere alternator won't do. In fact, the higher current alternators often have lower idle outputs. (It's been a long time since I've looked at an alternator output curve - rpm vs output current)

It looks like you need a capacitor and a higher capacity alternator - the alternator is like a pump, and a capacitor is a bucket, or storage tank.

Just thicker wires won't work, just an alternator won't work, and just a capacitor won't work. If the alternator capacity, minus the car's needs is less than the amp needs, then even multiple strands of 4/0 cable won't be enough.

I once designed the wiring for a 300 ampere alternator for a school bus (California, where else) with A/C that spent too much time at idle between stops and never got to wind the alternator up enough to keep the batteries charged.

This was an entirely different animal - a large 1 x 1 x 2 foot box (rectifieres) mounted separately from the alternator, which was a true alternator. Without the heat from the diodes, the alternator could be designed for higher output at low RPM. (cooling air is a big factor, I was told by the alternator engineers)

Sorry, got sidetracked.


EDIT**************

Just read your reply that you have no problem at idle - you may not need that capacitor - depends on how it handles the "peaks."

First - Alternator capacity to match vehicle +audio
Second - wire to handle stereo capacity
THird - capacitor to help with peaks.

If the wire is sized for the peaks, then the cap is unnecessary - but the wire MUST be sized for the average, no amount of capacitance will make up for undersized wires.

[rookie1]

I did the "big 3" in my MM, the dimming effect was slightly less noticeable. I then added a 5 farad capacitor and could tell no difference in the dimming , but, the bass seemed a tad more reinforced. I certainly respect everyone elses opinion on why it shouldn't work , I'm just giving you my observations.

On another note, it takes 10 times the watts to double the volume. You would be hard pressed to tell the difference between your 1000w amp and a 200w amp with an effective box design.

[twolow]

On another note, it takes 10 times the watts to double the volume. You would be hard pressed to tell the difference between your 1000w amp and a 200w amp with an effective box design.
In my experience the wattage difference would make it sound 'cleaner' which may to your ears in turn sound louder. Having the extra power also means you can possibly crank up the jams to a higher point on your head unit without distortion so in that sense it's louder.

[rookie1]

In my experience the wattage difference would make it sound 'cleaner' which may to your ears in turn sound louder. Having the extra power also means you can possibly crank up the jams to a higher point on your head unit without distortion so in that sense it's louder.

Valid point regarding bass impact. Head unit distortion wouldn't be a factor though, you could eliminate it with a line driver and careful gain settings.
In other applications like front soundstaging or rear fill I still say you coudn't tell the diff btwn 1000 or 200 watts.

I don't know how loud or hard hitting you like your subs, but, have you looked at the various bass enhancers available? AudioControls Epicenter and Soundstreams BX 10 come to mind. I'm using an Epicenter on the 10" free air Soundstream sub I have mounted in the rear deck and I like it alot.
These devices can give you the perception of bigger bass with less power.

BTW, if you do solve the dimming problem let me know.

[grampaws]

Measuring voltage drops from one end of the wire to the

other end..when under load will tell you if a wire has too much
resistance..if it needs to be changed...You will always get some dimming
of lights etc.. when you have a stereo putting a constantly changing load
on the altenator....few altenators work well at idle..possibly a smaller pulley
to spin the alt faster at idle could be used to improve this ...I have
not experimented with this pulley sizing would be experimental...

[Rider90]

I'm using 4g wire, suggested by the folks at Tweeter and IIRC the manual for my JL Audio Amp. I should re-check that one. It can't be anything with the wire since I had this same setup in my truck and experienced no problems whatsoever.

I did a quick search and "they" are saying the alternator from my 04 Ford F-250 Turbo Diesel is 130 amps, isn't that the same as the Marauder's? Why would this be affecting me if the truck handled it without any problems at night with every accessory on and no it was not equipped with dual alternators. Battery?

Thanks so far for the input folks, I would like to get this solved so I can really enjoy the potential of this system again.

['03BlkMM]

I'm using 4g wire, suggested by the folks at Tweeter and IIRC the manual for my JL Audio Amp. I should re-check that one. It can't be anything with the wire since I had this same setup in my truck and experienced no problems whatsoever.

I did a quick search and "they" are saying the alternator from my 04 Ford F-250 Turbo Diesel is 130 amps, isn't that the same as the Marauder's? Why would this be affecting me if the truck handled it without any problems at night with every accessory on and no it was not equipped with dual alternators. Battery?

Thanks so far for the input folks, I would like to get this solved so I can really enjoy the potential of this system again.


Maybe your alternator is weak!

[03SILVERSTREAK]

I don't believe the big (3) will help in power enhancement. one of the wiring that I know of is the alternator to battery which has a fuseable link. I don't know what the current rateing is but if you place a 4-GA wire from the alternator to the battery then you defeat the fuseable links purpose which is to open up in case of a short circuit or power surge which as a member stated will cause your battery to explode and possibly burn out your wires and your computer system which you have to take into consideration is the heart of your vehicle.

[Parts Man]

Get The Alt, Had 2 12 Inch Subs Rated At 1000w Each Running A Zr1000 Amp And A 20 Fared Cap (the Cap) Still Had Problems With Lights Dimming. Talk To My Tech Guy's And The Problem Is Not That The Lights Are Dimming Below 12 Volts But You Are Always Seeing Them At 13.5 Volts Or Better. They Are Along The Rest Of The Car Are Running Over The Battery Voltage Of 12.60 Volts.
The Other Thing You May Also Do Is Add A Second Battery That Is Isolated From The Alt.put It In The Trunk So The Amp Uses The Second Batery First When It Needs Extra Juice And Your Battery Up Front Can Start You Car With No Porblem (no Call To Aaa)....:d

[MENINBLK]

If you want a High Amp, High Voltage alternator, you may want to look here...
http://www.highoutputalternator.com/alternators.htm

[Rider90]

I think I am going to play around with a 2nd battery rather than taking a plunge and paying for a new alternator. I remembered tonight that my truck had two batteries and there were no problems, so I'll give it a shot.

Thanks guys.