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Bradley G
06-26-2005, 07:56 AM
After reading Smokies thread about Boost levels on a less restricted exhaust,I have some conciderations.

If someone were to install electric Cutouts on a Trilogy equipped MM, W/ stock exhaust, Will boost levels be even more diminished? Any advice to maintain near 9-10 PSI with little restriction?
If boost levels will drop conciderably, Can it be compensated for, with a tune?
Can the location of the cut-outs dramatically effect the potential loss of boost?
Do I think/worry too Much?:rolleyes:
Bradley G

BillyGman
06-26-2005, 08:58 AM
I get a 10 PSI reading on my boost gauge immediately upon WOT, with the standard Trilogy pulley, and Kooks headers along with a 2.5" diameter exhaust all the way back to the beginning of the tailpipes including mufflers w/out baffles on them. So I don't think there should be any concern about this.

SergntMac
06-26-2005, 10:24 AM
I get a 10 PSI reading on my boost gauge immediately upon WOT, with the standard Trilogy pulley, and Kooks headers along with a 2.5" diameter exhaust all the way back to the beginning of the tailpipes including mufflers w/out baffles on them. So I don't think there should be any concern about this.I'm in agreement with Billy.

Run it backwards, Bradley, see if it makes sense? Any engine is nothing more that a big air pump. Supercharging pushes even more air into the pump under pressure. If you restrict exhaust flow with backpressure, you're creating a bottleneck. How does this help build power?

Mikeenh
06-26-2005, 11:52 AM
DAMN MAC !!!!! You look GREAT for 100. What's your secret ??

Smokie
06-26-2005, 03:16 PM
I have little experience with S/Cing, what I know is based on what I read and what I see on my boost gauge, that is why I started a thread on boost levels hoping that I would recieve responses from members with similar kits...I recieved one response from Tallboy on specific boost levels....obviously his experience and mine does not a trend make.

Billy I think it is great that you have 10 psi on demand instantly with standard pulley....mine does not work quite that well...so it leaves me with this thought, is your car the norm? is there something wrong with mine? Mine does get to 10 psi but there is nothing instant about it.

In regards to the theory about compressing air in an open system (simultaneous intake and exhaust) I believe that if you have a very open exhaust but do not make any change to intake path (to increase intake charge) you wind up with less boost psi... this is simply an opinion on my part based on what I consider to be sound logical thinking....I want to learn...if I am wrong please educate me.:)

SergntMac
06-26-2005, 04:06 PM
In regards to the theory about compressing air in an open system (simultaneous intake and exhaust) I believe that if you have a very open exhaust but do not make any change to intake path (to increase intake charge) you wind up with less boost psi... this is simply an opinion on my part based on what I consider to be sound logical thinking....I want to learn...if I am wrong please educate me.:)
I suppose some of my answer will depend on where the boost is being measured, and that may be different between centrifugal and Roots systems. Meanwhile, I build boost with my Vortech T trim much the same way you described ^ there. As I launch my MM, I'll have a solid 5 PSI by the time my foot hits the floor flat. At the 1-2 shift (which comes pretty soon with my 4:10s and shift schedule for 6200 RPM, I'll be well over 10 PSI. Just after the 1-2 shift boost drops to 8-9 PSI, but immediately climbs again. I'll see 15 PSI just before the 2-3 shift, and it will drop to 12 after the shift. Just about the time I'm at 6200 in 3rd gear, I'm back at 15 PSI.

This is why I think it makes a difference where the boost measured. While my AutoMeter boost gauge dances around, my MAP sensor pegs at 17-18 PSI and stays there until I pull out of the throttle, so there are different sources for the data. While considering that, let's look at your question again.

Back when I changed from full stock OEM exhaust to the Reinhart Cobra system, I had a larger (3.48) pulley on the blower. My max PSI was 9.5, but it behaved just as I described above, only smaller numbers. Without changing anything but the exhaust system, I gained 30 RWHP, and 30 RWTQ, but I did not loose any boost what so ever. IMHO, the faster hot exhaust gasses vent away from the combustion chamber, the faster a fresh charge will flow forward. IMHO, this should improve your boost, make it more efficient. You may be reading 10 PSI going in, but that doesn't mean it doing you any good. In my experience with the Cobra exhaust, obviously my 9.5 PSI of boost wasn't being fully exploited. Depending on how it's measured, a restrictive exhaust could be holding you back from your true maximum PSI.

The concept that some backpressure is good in a supercharged application disagrees with me, I see it just the opposite. I've been collecting data on the benefits of a full 3" OD exhaust system with a long tube header design, and this would turn a N/A Marauder into Pinto. But, when the game is supercharging, the advice I've collected so far says it would be a premium mod. Hope this helps.

SergntMac
06-26-2005, 04:07 PM
DAMN MAC !!!!! You look GREAT for 100. What's your secret ??
I went metric in the '80s...

Smokie
06-26-2005, 05:13 PM
Sarge thanks for taking the time, this whole thing started because of a different thread that I started where I asked for information on boost levels and response, actually I never recieved much feedback.

I don't think back pressure is good for making boost, I thought decreasing back pressure and changing nothing else in a boosted system would show a slight decrease in boost, if I am wrong that is ok...I can handle it.:)

There had been times when we have discussed that our engines when the exhaust is opened up and not much else is changed they loose low end torque, this has been mentioned by folks whose opinions are very highly regarded among us.

BillyG's statement about instant 10 psi surprised me when I first read it because my car does not make an instant 10 psi, it does produce an almost instant 9 psi and then the engine needs RPM'S to get to 10 psi....Billy has a looser torque converter than my OEM converter....so he has access to higher rpm's than my car and I believe that helps to explain his instant 10 psi.

I have no argument with anyone here, I enjoy the responses and hope to learn.

SergntMac
06-26-2005, 06:32 PM
Sarge thanks for taking the time, this whole thing started because of a different thread that I started where I asked for information on boost levels and response, actually I never recieved much feedback.

I don't think back pressure is good for making boost, I thought decreasing back pressure and changing nothing else in a boosted system would show a slight decrease in boost, if I am wrong that is ok...I can handle it.:)

There had been times when we have discussed that our engines when the exhaust is opened up and not much else is changed they loose low end torque, this has been mentioned by folks whose opinions are very highly regarded among us.

BillyG's statement about instant 10 psi surprised me when I first read it because my car does not make an instant 10 psi, it does produce an almost instant 9 psi and then the engine needs RPM'S to get to 10 psi....Billy has a looser torque converter than my OEM converter....so he has access to higher rpm's than my car and I believe that helps to explain his instant 10 psi.

I have no argument with anyone here, I enjoy the responses and hope to learn.
Thanks, Javier, but it seems that either I am not getting your point, or, you're not getting mine. Which ever the case may be, let's talk soon? I'll give you a call, eh? It's always nice to connect with old friends.

I just now learned that this thread is in the Trilogy forum, and I feel I should step back. I may not be any help at all, because of the difference in designs.

Bradley G
06-26-2005, 06:45 PM
Thanks for all the input!

My understanding is, that a some exhaust back pressure, is beneficial to develop power.
The stock induction and exhaust of the MM does not appear to be overly restrictive.
I base my belief, on Lidio's Marauder,as it has, these factory components, left in place.
The stealthy sound of the factory exhaust, is desireable to me, at certain times.
The Cutouts are appealing to me, for times when "More Attention" is desired.Especially, when comments like, "Is that thing running?" have been spoken.
Wondering if BillyGman's Marauder develops the "instant" ten pounds of boost due to higher stall T/C , headers and tall gears.
This may allow him acess to his power sooner than you, Smokie.
It may be, That I have found, one of the only combo of mods that may not have been experimeted with thus far.
Wasn't really going for, Pioneering a setup.Probably, someone has done this.:confused:
Admittedly, been more of a follower, thus far.
Bradley G

BillyGman
06-26-2005, 10:44 PM
Here's my take, which also includes a guess on my part.....


Smokie, I don't think that the difference in your boost levels according to your boost gauge which you've described in another thread are even significant enough to even worry about. I'm sure that your car flies, and has an abundance of torque from 2,500 RPM on up to redline now that you've supercharged it, and I would just drive it and enjoy all that increased acceleration if I were you.

To answer your question though, I can't help but to consider the fact that while I have a low restrictive exhaust on my supercharged Marauder, I also have the stock intake tube and stock throttle body. If you've chosen an aftermarket throttle body, and/or aftermarket intake tube, then while that may increase your boost pressure slightly in the higher RPM's, it may also be decreasing it slightly, or atleast delaying it as far as your immediate throttle response goes.

I say that because while a wider intake tube can increase the quantitly of Cubic Feet per Minute (CFM) of air entering the engine, in many cases it also decreases the velocity of that airflow, which can decrease throttle response. Think of it in terms of a vacume pump being connected to a straw, and how fast the velocity of air will be traveling through that straw. But then the straw being disconnected from the vacume pump, and a sewer pipe being connected to it. The vacume might be drawing in more air since the sewer pipe is much less restrictive, but the velocity of air moving through the sewer pipe will be much slower moving than it will be moving through the straw. And that slower velocity can in some cases have a negative effect on throttle response.

However, whether or not that analogy applies to your car, I'm not sure. It might depend on the combination of modifications you've done. Because I drove John's car (aka "Jet"), and his car has the aftermarket intake tube along with bigger aftermarket throttle body, and his car has very good throttle response. But I'm just throwing out some food for thought here. Other than that, it doesn't sound to me like you really have any problem with your car at all. Maybe you need to take it up on the dyno for a test just to see what HP numbers it's making now, or take it to the track to get some ET numbers (if you haven't already done so). ;)

Smokie
06-27-2005, 04:17 AM
Billy I think my car is fine also, runs great, my other thread was seeking feedback for comparison, not a complaint.

I think it's great that you get into 10 psi that quick and it may be due to the combination of your other mods, I need to roll a bit before it gets to 10.:)

Bradley G
06-27-2005, 04:53 AM
Probably, should concern myself achieving ten pounds of boost, before speculating, what to do next.:o
Bradley G

mpearce
06-27-2005, 05:41 AM
Pardon the ignorance...

Whats a cutout?

Whats a dump? (besides the obvious)

Thank you.

-Mat

TooManyFords
06-27-2005, 06:34 AM
Well, I'm supercharged and I have cutouts... When I finally get over to Sutton Ford to put it on the Dyno I will answer this question with real data instead of guessing.

Cheers!

John

Bradley G
06-27-2005, 06:46 AM
A cutout refers to a splice or valve placed on the exhaust plumbing, to bypass the mufflers and catalitic converters.
Hence the exhaust "dumps" out rather than following the normal path.
And Yes,... John ( Too Many Fords) has them :bows: They open and close, (electrically)for varible amount of noise and power.
I will be watching for your post John, on the Dynotune! Good Luck!
Bradley G
Pardon the ignorance...

Whats a cutout?

Whats a dump? (besides the obvious)

Thank you.

-Mat

MikesMerc
06-28-2005, 02:48 PM
Any engine is nothing more that a big air pump. Supercharging pushes even more air into the pump under pressure. If you restrict exhaust flow with backpressure, you're creating a bottleneck.

Mac is right on.

The only reason you see a drop in boost when you open up the exhaust on a SC motor is that the engine is simply moving more air....period. And the blower puts out a specific CFM at any given rpm. So when the engine moves more air at any given rpm, PSI drops. Under WOT conditions, this is definitely making more power without a doubt even though you are seeing less PSI.

However, not everyone drives around under WOT conditions. When the throttle is closed enough to produce vacuum, and there is no boost enhanced power production, then a smaller exhaust that promotes better cylinder scavenging and more torque is a good thing.

This is where a balanced exhaust comes in. Open enough to permit good power numbers with forced induction, but small enough to make good low and mid range non WOT power.


As far as why there are boost differences kit to kit...well there are too many variables mod wise to tell here. The Trilogy kit is typically 9.5 with the stock kit and an other wise stock Marauder. Other variables like altitude come into play as well. So anything in the 9 to 10 range is right on the money.

If I had to guess why Billy sees more boost quicker it likely has to due with the stall and gears. Although the roots blower does make most of its max boost by 2800 rpm, it takes time to get there as well. When a car with a stall "flashes" into the 2800 rpm range it appears to make its peak boost right away. Others with stock gears and stall need to wait that extra second...making 8 PSI right away, then coming up to 9 to 9.5 in the next second or two. Although gears/stall are more important for the centrifugal blowers than need higher rpms to make good boost, these concepts can still apply to the roots guys too. Its just less dramatic becuase the roots blowers make close to max PSI much much lower in the rpm band.


Also worth noting...anything that reduces the inlet restriction will promote in making more boost. So a larger mass air meter, KN set up, JLT, etc, etc...these all promote higher boost numbers by reducing restriction into the blower....and hence more power. Velocity is not an issue as your not looking at "stacking" or "packing" air into the blower (the mouth of the blower is larger than the inlet elbow itself so there is no velocity build).

TooManyFords
06-28-2005, 06:16 PM
If I had to guess why Billy sees more boost quicker it likely has to due with the stall and gears.
Holy gears, Batman! Do you realize how hard it is to put that genie back in the bottle!?!

. . . running and hiding! . . .

MikesMerc
06-28-2005, 06:39 PM
Holy gears, Batman! Do you realize how hard it is to put that genie back in the bottle!?!

. . . running and hiding! . . .

Huh? What's to run and hide from? What I stated was basic Supercharger 101. Nothing but basic fact that is a reality when the impellor is driven off the crank. If it get's anyone's underwear in a bunch its their problem :dunno:

TooManyFords
06-28-2005, 06:42 PM
Huh? What's to run and hide from? What I stated was basic Supercharger 101. Nothing but basic fact that is a reality when the impellor is driven off the crank. If it get's anyone's underwear in a bunch its their problem :dunno:
Sorry, forgot to include the (I'M JOKING!) in there... Relax. :)

Bradley G
06-28-2005, 07:04 PM
Before someone gets a Wedgie, Can I ask another question?:D

If the boost is reduced slightly by less back pressure, yet capable of more power(due to less restrictive induction and or exhaust)Is this considered safer power?
Trying to understand the relationship(trade offs) between, boost and power.
Bradley G

MikesMerc
06-29-2005, 04:48 AM
Sorry, forgot to include the (I'M JOKING!) in there...

I know. I just want to make sure everyone understands that I'm not out to start another war thread...I'm just trying to spread the knowledge:)




Before someone gets a Wedgie, Can I ask another question?:D

If the boost is reduced slightly by less back pressure, yet capable of more power(due to less restrictive induction and or exhaust)Is this considered safer power?


Not really. Its not safer or less safer...its just more power.

That said, its my opinion that being able to make more (or equivalent) power with less boost is always a good thing. Having the motor, fuel system, exhuast, etc optimised to run well and make more power with less boost is always a better foundation to work with when adding higher levels of forced induction. Running less boost is always good for less heat, belt slippage, etc etc. In addition, you can always turn up the boost level to make even more power.

Another clarification. Boost is not reduced directly because of less exhaust back pressure. Less back pressure = engine running harder making more power and consuming more air = less boost in the manifold due to more air being consumed by the motor. If the exhaust is opened up on a car that ends up making little if no extra power (due to restrictive heads, etc) than you will not see a boost drop because the motor isn't comsuming any more air.

Think of the blower as a device that provides a fixed amount of air flow (CFM) at any given blower speed. When the motor consumes more or less air at equal blower speeds, higher or lower manifold pressure (boost) occurs. For example the eaton unit in the Trilogy kit would likely make 25 PSI or more on a small 4 cylinder car (obviously an unacceptable and unmanageable set up but its just for example). Put the same blower on a screaming 7.0 liter motor and it'll only make 8 psi. Boost is the difference between the CFM produced by the blower minus the CFM consumed by the motor. There are other varibles such how well the blower manages the heat and back flow under pressure, but generally speaking this concept works.

Bradley G
07-01-2005, 04:38 AM
This makes sense Mike, Thanks for the explanation!

I supose, keeping the boost level near stock, and freeing up additional power and sound is what I am aiming at.
Bradley G

I know. I just want to make sure everyone understands that I'm not out to start another war thread...I'm just trying to spread the knowledge:)





Not really. Its not safer or less safer...its just more power.

That said, its my opinion that being able to make more (or equivalent) power with less boost is always a good thing. Having the motor, fuel system, exhuast, etc optimised to run well and make more power with less boost is always a better foundation to work with when adding higher levels of forced induction. Running less boost is always good for less heat, belt slippage, etc etc. In addition, you can always turn up the boost level to make even more power.

Another clarification. Boost is not reduced directly because of less exhaust back pressure. Less back pressure = engine running harder making more power and consuming more air = less boost in the manifold due to more air being consumed by the motor. If the exhaust is opened up on a car that ends up making little if no extra power (due to restrictive heads, etc) than you will not see a boost drop because the motor isn't comsuming any more air.

Think of the blower as a device that provides a fixed amount of air flow (CFM) at any given blower speed. When the motor consumes more or less air at equal blower speeds, higher or lower manifold pressure (boost) occurs. For example the eaton unit in the Trilogy kit would likely make 25 PSI or more on a small 4 cylinder car (obviously an unacceptable and unmanageable set up but its just for example). Put the same blower on a screaming 7.0 liter motor and it'll only make 8 psi. Boost is the difference between the CFM produced by the blower minus the CFM consumed by the motor. There are other varibles such how well the blower manages the heat and back flow under pressure, but generally speaking this concept works.

jawz101
09-08-2005, 12:03 PM
in case pierce reads this again. it's a bolt/weld-on performance part that lets you 'dump' out your exhaust before it hits your exhaust pipes. Adds hp & sounds loud as hell since you aren't silencing your engine with the noise controlling mufflers & stuff.

They used to be manual and you'd pull a lever or something and it would redirect your exhaust through a side pipe and out into the air. Now there are electronic ones that are easier to use.

Here's a quick example http://www.dmhperformance.com/ecutout.htm

check out the z28 video to get a good visual/audio explaination of what it is.

I just have one question - anyone have a sound clip of one on a mM avail?

Todd
09-08-2005, 04:06 PM
Pardon the ignorance...

Whats a cutout?

Whats a dump? (besides the obvious)

Thank you.

-Mat

Cutouts and dumps are two totally different things.....


Cutout has already been explained.

But a 'dump' (the car exhaust one) actually refers to a style exhaust system where there are no tail pipes to speak of. Also refered to as 'turn downs'. These mufflers have a short pipe (usually 4-8 inches depending on if they are home made or factory) coming out and pointing to the ground.

Some muffler companies sell mufflers with this installed. Most people add the turn downs to the muffler upon install which is what I did on my mustang. Less back pressure but a good bit louder.

Here is a link with a picture.

http://www.macperformance.com/store/category.cfm?SID=3&Category_ID=447

DeepSea117
09-23-2005, 09:09 PM
That cut-out movie was awesome, amazing sound. Anyone know if this will affect passing smog in California, and how it might?

Bradley G
09-26-2005, 06:44 AM
Cutouts and dumps are two totally different things.....[quote]
Thanks for the correction, I just thought we could get an idea what either type of less restrictive exhaust set-ups people chose and thier feedback.

jawz101
10-05-2005, 08:06 PM
And then there's always the Okie way where you just cut everything off. (sigh)

Well, at least I can rest assure with knowing it isn't just here. I googled 'redneck "no exhaust" ' and found Texas, South Carolina all stake claim on the invention. (Yes, the realization that this may just be one family's tradition did cross my mind)

I must explain that Safety Inspections once done annually in Okla. were removed a few years back. I am convinced that the practice remains in Oklahoma only to commemorate this historic event of automotive freedom.

One site returned, RiceCop.com, defined the craft pretty well.
quote from a proud activist found on a thread I can only guess is for therapy:
"yes-I am what some would call a redneck. I live in the sticks (in a trailer park, no less). I drive a beat-ass Chevy with no exhaust, and if I owned a car worthy of painting the Confederate flag on the roof, I would (I was born in South Carolina, and no, I'm not Klan or even slightly racist.) But I am nowhere near ignorant enough to see any of the cars on here as any better than my own, nor could I possibly see any of the riceboy A--HOLES worthy of a ticket as "racers". I don't have any damn problem with people "spending money on somethng they love". I see it all the time at classic car shows. But what I'm assuming this guy is guilty of is "spending money...(edited because stopping there helps define it better)... If this makes me a redneck"

He continues with a dissertation on no-exhaust theory & finishes by sharing a few political views.

All in all, his academic explaination defined it better than necessary.

SergntMac
10-05-2005, 10:18 PM
Well, I'm supercharged and I have cutouts... When I finally get over to Sutton Ford to put it on the Dyno I will answer this question with real data instead of guessing. Cheers! JohnAnd that John did, just this past Tuesday, 10/04/05.

I'm not looking to start any trouble in this thread, I'm just updating recent events. Neither do I wish to overwrite, or, upstage John's news, but I don't want anyone with transactions pending, to move forward.

This past Tuesday, John arrived at Sutton Ford for his dyno tune with Jerry VanDerlinde. I dropped by to watch them accomplish what I expected to be a long afternoon of tuning, that took only a very short while. Seems John's ProCharger kit was almost dialed-in from the first pull, and it all progressed nicely from there. I am impressed...Nice when a plan comes together, eh?

Once John's final tune was tailored and delivered to this MM, we had a chance to peek at back to back dyno pulls, just for *****s and giggles. One pull with John's street exhaust system in place, the second pull with his cut-outs/dumps wide open, and effectively running straight open exhaust.

This exploration is important to me too. I have been considering a full 3" OD exhaust system from StainlessWorks, including headers, but I was reserved on the effect of a full 3" OD exhaust system on a 281 CID small block engine. Call me old, but I just wasn't sure what to expect in performance gains. The results of this back-to-back test are important to me too.

Exact details of each pull elude me at the moment, I didn't study the dyno charts, or, pry into the conversation between John and Jerry. The tune is very personal. However, the bottom line I get from this exploration says don't waste your time, or, your money on open exhaust. It may be louder, but it's not better, performance wise. There is a significant loss of torque, and negligible HP gains, from running an open/larger exhaust system, period.

I am sure John will fill y'all in on the specific details here, what headers, mufflers and pipes he has in place, and so on. However, until he does, don't spend any money in this direction. Y'all need to know the full story on this, before you decide, or, invest, in a custom oversized exhaust system.

BillyGman
10-05-2005, 10:46 PM
However, the bottom line I get from this exploration says don't waste your time, or, your money on open exhaust. It may be louder, but it's not better, performance wise. There is a significant loss of torque, and negligible HP gains, from running an open/larger exhaust system, period.

.But with a 3" exhaust as opposed to the factory stock Marauder exhaust which actually necks down at one point to a mere 2" diameter, you're talking about two extremes. The 2" is too restrictive, while the 3" exhaust is just too big for a mere 281 cubic inch engine that's street driven often. However, there is an advantage to a 2.5" diameter exhaust on Marauders IMO. I believe that the 2.5" diameter exhaust pipes along with the Kooks headers that have 1 5/8 diameter primary tubes & 2.5" collectors offer more HP in the upper RPM's w/out sacrificing a noticeable loss of torque in the lower RPM's. Atleast not enough of a loss to be noticed while driving the car.


And with a Roots S/Cer set-up like the Trilogy package has, there's plenty of low RPM torque anyway. So I think that it depends on your application. But I do agree that an exhaust diameter of 3" isn't advantagous for any small block engine with less than 380 cubic inches of displacement, unless ofcourse it's primarily a trailer queen set-up for the track.

jawz101
10-06-2005, 08:21 PM
BillyGMan - there's a guy selling 'kooks exhaust' on the classifieds. I guess I'll get the answer I need but he made it sound a little vague to me. I only think of kooks headers that I know of. I emailed him for clarification.

Is there a complete exhaust they make? What would that even be? I didn't know if I'm thinking about his wording too much.

BillyGman
10-06-2005, 10:55 PM
BillyGMan - there's a guy selling 'kooks exhaust' on the classifieds. I guess I'll get the answer I need but he made it sound a little vague to me. I only think of kooks headers that I know of. I emailed him for clarification.

Is there a complete exhaust they make? What would that even be? I didn't know if I'm thinking about his wording too much.The Kooks bolt-on exhaust package for Marauders includes the following:

#1. Kooks headers (ceramic coating I highly recommend whether they still offer it or not, and even if the headers are stainless steel, I think you should still get them coated)
#2. Two Magnaflow Hi-flow cats (which replace the four factory stock cats)
#3. 2.5" diameter cat pipes, and muffler pipes (the cat pipes come welded onto the cats)
#4. Kooks X-pipe (2.5" diameter).
#5. two 18" Magnaflow stainless steel mufflers ( the straight-thru type)
#6. Header gaskets, and band clamps to secure the X-pipe to the muffler pipes, and cat pipes. Your factory tailpipes, & exhaust tips are retained, and the only welding that needs to be done is the back of the mufflers onto the tailpipes I had that done by a mufler shop, after I had already completed the rest of the installation myself.