U/D Pullies = Oil Pump Failure?

[Rider90]

This is a very often discussed topic at the Mach1 boards, of whom share the same 4.6L DOHC engine that we have. I guess I have two questions that I hope the powers of higher knowledge can answer for me...

1) Do the Mach1's have different pullies than us? I'd say about every 8 of 10 people that do the U/D Pullies (Mach1) report zero gain, or say they have lost power, and describe U/D pullies as a waste of money.

2) Is an oil pump failure possible from U/D pullies? There have been a handful of Mach1 owners that have had the oil pump fail after doing this mod. How about any problems with the A/C?

It seems that over here at this board we praise the underdrive pullies for what they do for our land yachts, so it would make sense if the pullies between our Marauders and their Mach1s are different. I read somewhere on their board that they (we?) already have Ford's version of underdrive pullies.

"The harmonics of the underdrive pulles are causing the cast oil pump to fail." - Mach1 Board :confused:

Related Thread - http://www.mach1registry.org/forums/showthread.php?t=31092

[FordNut]

Lots of info can be found here on that subject with a search, but in a nutshell here's a recap...

Steeda pulleys have a one-piece crank pulley that replaces the OEM pulley/damper. Nobody here that has used that type has had a failure related to the pulleys. Some other brands use a piggy-back arrangement on the OEM damper. The instructions for the pulleys are not always included or clear or even followed, so some folks have improperly installed this type of pulley whick resulted in oil pump failure.

The alternator pulley is usually not changed on our cars for a couple of reasons. One being the fact that the '03s had a special one-way clutch on the alternator so it was inconvenient to change it, another being that the MM has so many electrical options that it's not wise to reduce the alternator output any further than the crank pulley reduces it.

Many of us have done dyno tests before and after mods to verify gains. Most of us have experienced about 10 hp from the underdrive pulleys.

[Rider90]

FordNut, is there any other way for the oil pump to fail after an U/D pulley install, or is it just that they were not installed right?

There are a lot of posts out there shunning the U/D pullies and only a few praising them. Why would so many have negative effects....

[cyclone03]

Some installers use an impach wrench to remove and install the new damper.
That sends shock waves into the oil pump gear mounted on the crankshaft cracking it.


I got involved in a discussion with a guy on a message board who was going on his 4th(!) new lower end.He blamed pretty much everybody who ever looked at his car for this failure.He was running a very modded Mustang with a supercharger.On the street all was good,but at the track AFTER he lifted at the end of a run the oil pressure went to zero (everytime).

Back and forth we went,I asked him to list all his mods and when he said Underdrive pulley's I asked about the damper,he said NONE BECAUSE THATS THE WAY EVERYBODY RUNS THEM,I said does everybody help you rebuild your moter?

He hasn't broke it yet....

[Rider90]

So use hand-tools and nothing air powered?

[SergntMac]

Missing or incorrect dampner is the major cause behind failed oil pump. If the crank snout isn't properly counter-balanced, the oil pump gears will suffer.

Some engines are internally balanced, some are not, therefore, UD manufacturers do not always include a dampner, or, advice about them. If the Mach I owners are trashing their oil pumps, most likely it's because one owner used an incorrect set of pulleys and everyone followed his lead rather than making their own decision. This is an underlying problem with user boards like our MM.Net here. One guy does something, everyone jumps off the same cliff.

Best to check with a pro engine builder, and see which set of UD pulleys are correct for your applcation. Our shared 4.6L DOHC is not internally balanced, and a dampner is absolutely necessary. That said, you have a few styles and weights to choose from, some of which are NHRA certified for racing use.

If I were to go shopping for UD pulleys today, I'd buy the Steeda set from Reinhart. Many of us here have, with no complaints.

[Smokie]

.....or maybe the Mach 1 guys are installing the crank pulley with the longer bolt that comes with the Steeda kit...:eek:

[metroplex]

The mod motors are internally balanced. We do not have balancers. The dampeners are integrated with the crank pulley. The piggeyback pulleys will run into problems with distortion and unbalanced rotation.

I used air tools for my install. I know a lot of people that use air tools for that installation. If the oil pump gears crack from the vibration then those gears shouldn't be used in such an application.

[Blackened300a]

I installed my Pullies with Airtools about 3 months ago and I definitly felt a improvement in acceleration off the line. I also have had No problems with them

[CRUZTAKER]

No troubles here after some 20,000 miles.

Definate numbers and perforfance increase however!

[Rider90]

Which U/D pullies are you guys using and from where? Steeda? DR?

Any other problems?

[SergntMac]

The mod motors are internally balanced. We do not have balancers. The dampeners are integrated with the crank pulley. The piggeyback pulleys will run into problems with distortion and unbalanced rotation.

I used air tools for my install. I know a lot of people that use air tools for that installation. If the oil pump gears crack from the vibration then those gears shouldn't be used in such an application.
I disagree. All 4.6 and 5.4 crankshafts are neutral balance, static balanced outside the block, which is to say that absent a heavy flywheel, or, balancer, the crank does not have a counterweight to match it's natural imbalance under power, or, while suffering the violence of detonation. Detonation isn't just spark knock, it more like two automobiles hitting head on. This is a lot of violence to the crank, even briefly, and the balancer must be up to the task.

Balancers come in several flavors, depending on the crankshaft. Some are fixed weight, others are adjustable and all you to add/remove weight, depending on your final application and tune. The oil pump failures on engines using stock oil pumps can be attributted to a harmonic problem that manifests itself by breaking the oil pump gears when inadequate dampening from a reduced diameter harmonic balancer is employed. Just because a particular UD kit includes a harmonic balancer/damper, doesn't mean it's big enough to act as the counterweight in a particular build. Look at the hiistory of balancer/dampers as our Ford V-8 has changed.

The '96-'98 Mustang GT used a balancer with a .290 inch outer ring depth. The '96-01 Cobra and the '93-98 Mark VIII used a .560 inch outer ring, while the '99-'03 GT used an .800 inch outer ring. Finally, our Marauder and late model Mach Is with auto trannies use the thickest outer ring depth yet, 1.15 inch and weighing in at 9.90 pounds. Robust, eh? If the cast cranks were truely internally balanced, this ring and it's weight wouldn't be necessary.

Removing the balancer, or, using an aftermarked balancer that isn't adequate for the task will result in failure, when the oil pump gears are reduced to sand by an out of balance crankshaft. I used the Steeda kit on my N/A Marauder with no complications, and I observed 10 RWHP and 7 RWTQ on back to back dynos. If a supplier doesn't list the Marauder specifically, use the Mach 1 kit, or, the '99-'03 Mustang GT kit. Yes, it's a 2 valve engine, but the bottom end is the same.

I don't have UD pulleys on my supercharged Marauder, but I did replace the OEM damper to match the upgraded Ford Racing forged crank, which was re-balanced in the build. The damper is Ford Racing M-6316-D461. BTW, I am very comfortable using the OEM oil pump and gears, and I am just shy of 500 RWHP.

I don't see any relationship between using air tools and complications with the oil pump. However, common sense says bolts should be broken loose (and final torque) by hand, or discarded and replaced with fresh bolts, IMHO. Constant pounding from an impact gun isn't good for any bolt.

[Rider90]

Mac, in a post I recall you saying you held on to your U/D pullies and now you say you have none installed....is that saying you might have a set for sale?

[cyclone03]

.....or maybe the Mach 1 guys are installing the crank pulley with the longer bolt that comes with the Steeda kit...:eek:

Yea thats bad too....

[cyclone03]

Your confusing balance weight with harmonic dampening.

Balance is like a titer-tooter the weight of the piston rod combo needs to be offset buy the counter weights on the crank shaft,and it is.All the balance function in all Mod motors is handled by the crank.
If the engine was EXTERNALY balanced,like the Ford 289,302,351's we would have an OFFSET weight on the crank damper and flywheel.


The weight ,or mass, of the damper is used to ,well,dampen the harmonic vibrations that the pounding of combustion send into the crankshaft.This vibration,if not controled is what kills the brittle oil pump gears and if somehow was left unchecked can take out rod and main bearings too.


Oh and yes the stock or even any crank damper could be lightened or balanced along with the complete rotating assembly. But our engines should have all balance work done internaly.

[BillyGman]

I believe that "Cyclone03" has it right. Externally balanced engines rely on the flywheel and balancer for the balance of the reciprocating assembly, while internally balanced engines rely on the crankshaft for balancing. Most engines are internally balanced. There are a number of stroker engines that have to be externally balanced for practicality, since it would be too expensive to use the crankshaft to balance the reciprocating assembly since it would take so much weight offset to perform the balancing procedure, that exotic heavy metals would have to be pressed into holes that were bored in the crank to accomplish the task. No offense intended towards MAC.

[fastblackmerc]

I believe that "Cyclone03" has it right. Externally balanced engines rely on the flywheel and balancer for the balance of the reciprocating assembly, while internally balanced engines rely on the crankshaft for balancing. Most engines are internally balanced. There are a number of stroker engines that have to be externally balanced for practicality, since it would be too expensive to use the crankshaft to balance the reciprocating assembly since it would take so much weight offset to perform the balancing procedure, that exotic heavy metals would have to be pressed into holes that were bored in the crank to accomplish the task. No offense intended towards MAC.
I did a review of the Steeda underdrive pulleys. I included the installation instructions. If anyone is interested.

[metroplex]

I disagree. All 4.6 and 5.4 crankshafts are neutral balance, static balanced outside the block, which is to say that absent a heavy flywheel, or, balancer, the crank does not have a counterweight to match it's natural imbalance under power, or, while suffering the violence of detonation. Detonation isn't just spark knock, it more like two automobiles hitting head on. This is a lot of violence to the crank, even briefly, and the balancer must be up to the task. I disagree. They are internally balanced, as in the crank itself is balanced w/o the use of an external balancer, hence "internally" balanced. :D This was the term used by many modular motor experts way before you guys even had Marauders and were dicking around with gutted airboxes and body colored grilles on stock Crown Vics "racing" Mustangs.

An externally balanced crank would be something like from a 302/351, where you had a balancer along with a crank pulley.

The OEM dampener will start to come out in stock applications, while the SFI certified dampener used in the Steeda 1 piece will stay. My OEM Crank pulley was coming apart when I got Jerry's chip a LONG time ago. The rubber elastomer stuff was coming out of the groove. There are some supercharged Vics that run into the same problem with the crappy stock dampener. YMMV.

[FordNut]

This was the term used by many modular motor experts way before you guys even had Marauders and were dicking around with gutted airboxes and body colored grilles on stock Crown Vics "racing" Mustangs.
Like a breath of fresh air every time you come around and impart your words of wisdom.

[SergntMac]

Mac, in a post I recall you saying you held on to your U/D pullies and now you say you have none installed....is that saying you might have a set for sale?
Nope. Wasn't me, Jason. My UD pulleys stayed with that MM when it was sold in June of '03.

Your confusing balance weight with harmonic dampening.

Balance is like a titer-tooter the weight of the piston rod combo needs to be offset buy the counter weights on the crank shaft,and it is. All the balance function in all Mod motors is handled by the crank. If the engine was EXTERNALY balanced,like the Ford 289,302,351's we would have an OFFSET weight on the crank damper and flywheel.

The weight ,or mass, of the damper is used to ,well,dampen the harmonic vibrations that the pounding of combustion send into the crankshaft.This vibration,if not controled is what kills the brittle oil pump gears and if somehow was left unchecked can take out rod and main bearings too.

Oh and yes the stock or even any crank damper could be lightened or balanced along with the complete rotating assembly. But our engines should have all balance work done internaly.
First, let me say that neither you or Billy have been disrespectful. None of us were born with this knowledge, the learning curve is a lifetime experience. However, I've compacted a lot of learning into the past 3 years, and all I can share here is what I have learned first hand, from the pro who built my engine. This doesn't make me right. The 411 may have suffered in my absorbtion, but no harm done. Please correct me as we go along.

Lance, you and I are saying the same thing, at least I am trying to say that. I've used the "teeter-totter" example before and I was corrected. But, I understand it in my head. I've called it "wobble" and "whip" too, no one seems to like the metaphores I use. Nonetheless, it's a fact that OEM dampers have grown in size and weight over recent years, to the point where the stock Marauder/Mach I engine uses the largest and heaviest damper on Ford shelves. 1.15 inches thick, weighing almost 10 pounds.

IMHO, this is evidence that crankshaft balancing is getting less and less attention to detail, ergo it's disclaimer-like that it's a neutral balance, which is later affected by the accessories attached in assembly (like a flywheel, or harmonic balancer/damper), thus more harmonic distortion leading to increased oil pump gear failure, perhaps main bearing failure as well. This is further supported by the opening post here, word that Mach I owners removing their OEM dampers completely, or, replacing it with a damper much too light to carry out a balancing task, are suffering failures. This is the way I learned it from Randy Crowley as we built my MM engine. It's also the way Sean Hyland teaches it, please turn to page 18 of his notes on 4.6 engines.

When you rebuild an MM engine for performance, as I have, you should be refining (correcting) this neutral balance. As Billy mentions, this is accomplished by turning down, or, drilling holes in crankshaft counterweights, and filling them with heavy metal until the crankshaft meets your specs. This is a true balanced crankshaft, and most likely a smaller/lighter damper will be used later in the build. Please remember that I have seen the inside of my MM engine, and my OEM crankshaft. Factory balancing with any care, or, concern for harmonics as we speak of that here, is absent, seems it was not on Ford's list of things to do when designing this engine.

When my OEM crank sat side by side with my Ford Racing forged crank, several differences were immediately noted. The FRP crank got a lot more attention to balance in manfacturing, and it speced out rather nice right out of the box. But, Randy wasn't impressed, and we refined it further still. BTW, it was interesting to learn that the cast crank has six counterweights, and the FRP crank has eight. The two missing counterweights are from the center of the crank, which causes me to speculate the end effect of that. Seems to me that "internally balanced" may be accomplished with a forged crank, but not with the cast crank we have in our MM engine. And, I don't see how it could be accomplished by removing the center two counterweights, without further, (and external) balancing by means of a flywheel, heavy damper, or, both.

There was only one hole drilled in a counterweight on my OEM cast crank, with the number 43 hand written next to it in yellow paint, which suggests that someone peeked at it during assembly, and it met a minimum spec. There were a total of nine holes drilled into the FRP forged crank, which suggests that this peek lasted longer, and the minimum spec set higher. Otherwise, we could presume that the OEM cast crank was that much closer to perfect at the time of manufacture? I think not.

Anyway, this is how I see it, forgive me for my choice of words. To sum it up, IMHO, folks who change their OEM damper for a lighter damper in an UD pulley upgrade, or, trust in the "internally balanced" school of thought and remove it altogether, will be discussing their decision again someday. Agreed?

Like a breath of fresh air every time you come around and impart your words of wisdom.
Indeed.

[Rider90]

10-4 Mac.

So uh, am I going to have a problem with my Steeda kit?

[Rider90]

I did a review of the Steeda underdrive pulleys. I included the installation instructions. If anyone is interested.

Found it! Thank you very much, this is very useful :banana2:

[cyclone03]

10-4 Mac.

So uh, am I going to have a problem with my Steeda kit?


No...........

[Rider90]

No...........
I just did a search and found more answers than I was even looking for, IIRC you participated in those discussions so thank you :cool:

[Dennis Reinhart]

We just had a dyno day Friday there was a 01 Cobra here and the hood was up and I looked in and he had BBK UDP and a cold air kit and guess what, the UDP were the Piggy back type and the Dampener was not installed, we had Back on 03 I know of two Marauder owners do the same thing and they lost oil pumps over this, and these UDP were installed at dealers. I will not talke a chance so I quit selling Piggy backs even though it was in BOLD letters with a warning that the dampener had to be reinstalled, thats why I only sell the Steeda UDP and they are sold out and on back order along with Motorsport 4:10 GEARS,

This is big problem that seems to me getting worse, its very tough as a small business to keep up with delays and keep customers happy, just like Kooks, Pro guard, and Bumper Bib, and now Ford Motorsport gears, but we have a very good club here and all of you have really been great in all the delays, as a small business we try and deliver in a timely manner. The car market after market parts in general seems to have good days and not so good days, I talk to a lot of people on the phone and a lot of small business are slow. This may be part of the reason no one is stocking product only making what is being ordered.

But as far as UDP go they do give a RWHP gain they are safe to use if installed properly. Detoantion can also take out oil pump gears.

[MAD-3R]

I had a set of the old piggy back style UD pullie's installed wrong.


I lost my oil pump gear... at triple digit speed... fried my internals...

A Home equity loan later, I have an engine that is second to none :)

[FordNut]

This is big problem that seems to me getting worse, its very tough as a small business to keep up with delays and keep customers happy, just like Kooks, Pro guard, and Bumper Bib, and now Ford Motorsport gears, but we have a very good club here and all of you have really been great in all the delays, as a small business we try and deliver in a timely manner. The car market after market parts in general seems to have good days and not so good days, I talk to a lot of people on the phone and a lot of small business are slow. This may be part of the reason no one is stocking product only making what is being ordered.
I believe the aftermarket performance market is like this everywhere. Anything I try to order or have done, there is a huge backlog. Some tuners have their dyno scheduled a month in advance. Business is strong but it's a pain as a consumer when demand outpaces supply.

[CRUZTAKER]

Which U/D pullies are you guys using and from where? Steeda? DR?

Any other problems?
Steeda kit from Dennis. ;)

[BillyGman]

To sum it up, IMHO, folks who change their OEM damper for a lighter damper in an UD pulley upgrade, or, trust in the "internally balanced" school of thought and remove it altogether, will be discussing their decision again someday. Agreed?

As Cyclone03 had mentioned before, I think you're talking about two separate issues. DAMPENING, and BALANCING. Yes, they're both important, but they're not the same. In an internally balanced engine, the dampner is still needed, but it's only used for DAMPENING vibrations, which otherwise would travel through the crankshaft, and into other components such as the oil pump gears. The vibration Dampener isn't used, nor needed for balancing on an internally balanced engine, which is already balanced BEFORE the vibration dampener is installed.

On an externally balanced engine, the engine internals are NOT completely balanced as an assembly until the flywheel, and vibration dampener are installed, because the dampener and the flywheel are both used to balance the crankshaft. As for heavier vibration dampeners being used on internally balanced engines, you're correct. The car manufactures are going with bigger and heavier vibration dampeners in Hi-perf applications, yes. But that has nothing to do with balancing needs. That has to do with the fact that lighter vibration dampners often do not absorb, or "dampen" the vibrations that run through the crankshaft as thoroughly (especially in a high RPM enviroment).

Those vibrations are a normal occurance in any internal combustion engine, and will always be present regardless of whether or not the engine is balanced. The vibrations stem from the exerting force of the expanding fuel/air mixture upon the pistons during the compression stroke, which in turn is transfered to the connecting rods. This force being exerted on the connecting rods, causes them to flex, and therefore vibrate BIG TIME ( connecting rod "harmonics"). Those continual harmonic vibrations travel through the connecting rods, and into the crankshaft,and the crankshaft acts as a conductor of those vibrations. And w/out adequate dampening of this vibration via a vibration dampener attached to the crankshaft snout, the vibrations will not stop at the cranshaft, but will travel into other areas, and engine components will be destroyed, and eventually the engine will fail.

As Mr. Reinhart has pointed out, some people have neglected to replace their vibration dampeners after they've removed them during the under drive pulley installation, and running any internal combustion engine in a street car w/out the use of a vibration dampener is an accident just waiting to happen. It's only a matter of time before the normally occuring vibrations produced by any engine will begin to destroy various engine components IF they aren't dampened, and it usually will not take very much time for that to happen either. But again, that has nothing to do with engine balancing. These are two separate issues (vibration dampening, & engine balancing).

Greater care in precise engine balancing is taken during hi-perf engine assembly so that the reciprocting mass will run smoother, and will create less resistence to the force of internal combustion. That translates into more power. It's the same reason why serious drag race engines are built with lightweight aluminum connecting rods, and lightweight pistons. Less resistence= more power. But that hasn't anything to do with vibration dampening. ;)

[TooManyFords]

Everyone agrees that the Dampener is required for our cars, but exactly how is this thing constructed that makes it work? Is is non-solid somewhere inside it that allows it to "absorb" these harmonics? I've heard of those "Fluid Dampeners" and I think I understand the principals of having a very thick viscous fluid in there to help absorb these vibrations, but I'm just curious if there is a more technical explaination about how these things work.

Cheers!

John

[Dennis Reinhart]

Plain and simple the dampener is made in two pieces joined together by a rubber layer the outer ring the can actually flex or rotate back and forth to do just what its designed for Dampen vibration, this rubber over time can deteriorate and if that happens it will spin that outer ring off with a devastating effect on the motor thats why high RWHP go with the one piece

http://web.iwebcenters.com/reinhartautomotive/images/session/00-00-1120140877-dampner.jpg

[TooManyFords]

Plain and simple the dampener is made in two pieces joined together by a rubber layer the outer ring the can actually flex or rotate back and forth to do just what its designed for Dampen vibration, this rubber over time can deteriorate and if that happens it will spin that outer ring off with a devastating effect on the motor thats why high RWHP go with the one piece
Ahh, that explains what happened to my 67 Cougar! I had built this awesome 289 engine; 12.5:1 TRW pop-ups, ported and polished heads (by yours truly), Offenhauser dual-quad high-rise intake with chrome velocity stacks out the hood, etc etc.. Had 4.56 posi and a top loader 4-speed and this car hauled azz. One day, I raced a friend on his Yamaha 650 and was pulling away from him and then BAM! My engine didn't sound right, there was water just hosing down my windshield and it quit running. When we stopped and looked, the balancer was nowhere to be seen, the fan with -through- the radiator and a big chunk of the block on #1 cylinder was missing and you could see the piston. Greg said a big chunk of something flew in front of his helmet and it was a good thing I had him by half a car when it grenaded.

Turns out that was the only piece, besides the block, that was not gone over when I built that motor. I still have one of those pistons laying around here to remind me how much fun that motor was.

Thanks for the explanation Dennis!

john

[SergntMac]

The leading question in this thread has been answered, hope it helps the Mach I owners with some guidance. No one needs to lose an engine through misinformation. Rider, feel free to use this 411 to help them out.

Lance/BillyG: I appreciate your good counsel on this, but you want to make me the confused one here, and I'm sorry to say that I must still disagree. I'll state why in a fresh thread on it, you're invited to continue helping out. Billy, thanks for the thoughtful replies, and John, please catch up with us there?

http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?t=19387

[BillyGman]

Lance/BillyG: I appreciate your good counsel on this, but you want to make me the confused one here, and I'm sorry to say that I must still disagree. I'll state why in a fresh thread on it, you're invited to continue helping out. Billy, thanks for the thoughtful replies, and John, please catch up with us there?

http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?t=19387 (http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?t=19387[/QUOTE) LOL....listen to us. What a bunch of gear heads we are, uh? Okay, I'll check out your new thread.

[cyclone03]

The leading question in this thread has been answered, hope it helps the Mach I owners with some guidance. No one needs to lose an engine through misinformation. Rider, feel free to use this 411 to help them out.

Lance/BillyG: I appreciate your good counsel on this, but you want to make me the confused one here, and I'm sorry to say that I must still disagree. I'll state why in a fresh thread on it, you're invited to continue helping out. Billy, thanks for the thoughtful replies, and John, please catch up with us there?

http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?t=19387

No! You go off in your new little thread I'm staying right here with the Mach 1 guy!

Call me "counsel" yea right.......!
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BTW see you over there......