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SergntMac
03-09-2003, 06:18 AM
Starting a new thread here over a question posed in Stage II/Dyno Stats on Torque Converter thread. As I wrote my reply to Matt, I thought it could build into an interesting thread of it's own. Here's Matt Johnson's opening question.


Originally posted by Matt Johnson
But my next question to you, Sarge, is what "Stage" have you given to suspension mods? I would think you'd be feeling the need for some tweaking already.

Haven't had a desire to debate the value of the OEM suspension yet, other than to find it pleasing, and consistent with the focus of the whole car. The MM handles quite nicely out of the box, and since my back up driver is a '98 Mountaineer, I appreciate the MM ride more every time I switch cars.

Kenny Brown and Sean Hyland both offer suspension upgrades, mostly the usual thicker sway bars, beefy bushings, springs, and so on. Once my OEM suspension loosens up, I'll probably upgrade rather than replace. I think the place to begin evaluating suspension, is where the rubber meets the road, the tires. Adding fatter, stickier tires usually results in accelerated suspension component failure, if not calculated into the tire upgrade from the start.

The KB-S gets a tire upgrade, both in size and compound. Adding them to a 4200 pound car that now moves very quickly and needs to dig in at the launch, pushes back against the sway bars, bushings and springs with a multiplied stress. I imagine this make a suspension upgrade necessary in the first build. Stiffer springs I get, but the KB-S is also lowered, 1.5" I believe, which can further multiply that stress by reducing suspension "elbow room." Kenny Brown mentions in his rationale for change, that he thought a lower, meaner profile adds to the stealth appearance, but I read that to mean that lowering the car is a cosmetic mod, which I'm not big on.

I live in a snow state, which means my MM is automatically a part-time car due to weather. I'm willing to pull her out when the streets are clear and dry, but I still have to use side streets, alleys and parking lots, which are not always plowed. So, if I lower the car, I'm scratching days from the calendar when I can driver her, which also means that if it's just for looks, no one will notice, because she's in the garage more.

If there is a "center of gravity" issue here (which I CAN appreciate after driving my Mountaineer), it's not clear to me how much improvement is gained. The MM rides fairly flat and square from the factory, I'd like to see some skid pad numbers, before and after. If it's an areodynamic issue, that works against the grain of the popular spoiler mod. If there isn't any gain in lowering, then why change it?

Beefer bushings, bars and springs? I'm sure they will be necessary as my power increases and my tires get wider and sticker. But, this is all down the road for me (excuse my pun), after I decide if I will supercharge or not.

Just my .02c.

martyo
03-09-2003, 06:47 AM
Sarge:

The C&D article says the "before" is .86g on the skidpad and .88g is the "after" for the Kenny Brown massaged car.

Now, is that a meaningful return on expensive parts if you are a street warrior and not road racing the MM (as some of the members here do)?

mensrea
03-09-2003, 07:19 AM
Even with the .88, the car drives totally differently. It actually rides smoother on the highway and really sits down well on the long drives. Bumps are a little more noticeable, but all in all I think the suspension mods are totally worth it. Bushings, control arms, springs, etc. are all fairly inexpensive mods. Kenny is working on getting some name brand (not Tokico) shocks for the car, and I will be first in line! (right behind the line for his headers!)

EDITED
Oh ya, and Car and Driver said they liked the hunkered down look, so do I...

Vince Gortner
03-09-2003, 07:56 AM
I definitely want to lower my car an inch or so. I'll admit that I want to do this more for reasons of creating a more aggressive appearance, but it won't hurt when I go autocrossing either.

I'd love to wait and see what Dennis has in store for us in the suspension area, but I may have to forge ahead with the SHM front springs and just dial the rear suspension down to match. Unfortunately, I want to drop the car down an inch but the SHM springs are metric (25mm) and I think that will cause my car to rotate counterclockwise when I flush the toilet.

I'll bet I can't even get a Quarter-Pounder with cheese there either...

FordNut
03-09-2003, 08:23 AM
Probably little affect on performance, but I think it would look better to have rear suspension control arms and links made of aluminum or tubular steel instead of stamped steel. I look at the aluminum front upper control arms and think of how thorough the suspension design team was. Then I look out back and see unpainted stamped steel pieces?

Sidney
03-09-2003, 08:40 AM
I work at a factory. By not painting these peices, the company saves millions. At my plant they don't paint the trans pan, control arms, brake parts, steering gear box,etc.... This was a change when the big three started losing money.

Reaper948
03-09-2003, 09:28 AM
can someone explain to me what those skidpad numbers mean? i dont get anything about those things

Matt Johnson
03-09-2003, 10:49 AM
Thought I read somewhere on this forum (or maybe it was a forum member who PM'd me) that Billstein was at least a year away on a shock, and there was no comment from Koni.

WolfeBros
03-09-2003, 11:06 AM
This thing is pretty good right out of the box. I will spend my mod money on other areas. After the go fast mods my biggest concern is brakes.

Billatpro
03-09-2003, 01:01 PM
If there is a "center of gravity" issue here (which I CAN appreciate after driving my Mountaineer), it's not clear to me how much improvement is gained. The MM rides fairly flat and square from the factory, I'd like to see some skid pad numbers, before and after. If it's an areodynamic issue, that works against the grain of the popular spoiler mod. If there isn't any gain in lowering, then why change it?
Just my .02c. [/B][/QUOTE]

You pose some interesting opinions on this subject, one which I have been giving a lot of thought myself! While I'm still "Bone stock" I non the less am trying to formulate a course of action once I do begin mods.(I still less the 1000 miles on him)

While performance was in the forefront of my mind when deciding on this car, it was the Bad Boy "Visual" appeal that sealed the deal. We all must ask ourselves, do I really need 450 hp? do I really drive this way? it also follows with regards to Suspension mods, do I really need them? do I drive this way? We each must answer these questions for our selves of course.

Would I lower my car the sake of "Looks" well... YES! perhaps even before I do any other mods!

Is there a performance advantage there?... sure there is. Would I ever drive that hard to realize that advantage?...maybe. Lets face it, this car is about "emotion" it's a sensual thing. Having it, sensing it, feeling it.... and actually using it are entirly two different things. Suspension mods are being added to my list of must do's. Should they be added to yours? that's a question for you to answer.

Warpath
03-10-2003, 09:31 AM
Originally posted by FordNut
Probably little affect on performance, but I think it would look better to have rear suspension control arms and links made of aluminum or tubular steel instead of stamped steel. I look at the aluminum front upper control arms and think of how thorough the suspension design team was. Then I look out back and see unpainted stamped steel pieces?

The front uppers are steel not aluminum. The rear arms are galvanized steel not unpainted. They have been around for eons and are very inexpensive. Tubular arms cost more.


Originally posted by Billatpro
We all must ask ourselves, do I really need 450 hp?

:confused: Is there a need to ask? I think its better to ask, "When I get to 450 hp, what is the next engine mod?"

LincMercLover
03-10-2003, 09:36 AM
Originally posted by Reaper948
can someone explain to me what those skidpad numbers mean? i dont get anything about those things

This is in relation to the grip of the car on a launch. Force is measured in G's.

So baisically, it's that seat of your pants, neck snapping feeling you get when you mash the gas.

MAD-3R
03-10-2003, 09:43 AM
Not smash the gas, but crank the wheel. Skid pad is how much LATERAL acceleration it takes to break the tires loose. Some of the GTO and GTP road racers run skidpads of upwards of 2 G's. A two ton car with a skid pad of .86 is impresive.

jefferson-mo
03-10-2003, 10:24 AM
I actually plan to do the SHM front springs and both sway bars as my first mod......Yes the car handles exceptionally well but the way I drive I want just that little extra.......I'm lucky enough to have good weather most of the time and our roads are pretty well maintained so ride isn't a big issue........our terrain is mostly canyons so there really isn't a straight(or level) street anywhere around here so exceptional handling is VERY important to me.......:banana2:

on a side.......Bilstein is only about 10 minutes from me....so maybe I'll start hounding them.........

WolfeBros
03-10-2003, 10:25 AM
^^^ What MAD said ^^^

Skid pad is a test of handling not straight line acceleration.

jefferson-mo
03-10-2003, 10:28 AM
actually LML.the 'skipad' is a 200' circle which you drive around as fast as you can till one end of the car breaks loose.............so the .88 mentioned is lateral G's....the 'sideways pull on your car in a turn..........

yeah .88 is GREAT for a big car.........I think the Z06 Vette pulls about .90 or slightly higher

LincMercLover
03-10-2003, 12:21 PM
Well ya learn somethin' new everyday!

Billatpro
03-10-2003, 02:21 PM
Originally posted by Warpath


:confused: Is there a need to ask? I think its better to ask, "When I get to 450 hp, what is the next engine mod?"

Also a valid question! "to be or not to be" is another.:confused:

LincMercLover
03-10-2003, 10:49 PM
I think that's when you toss that motor out of the MM and into a P71 and start all over again with that new Cammer Crate Motor.