...my day at the dyno :)

[Petrograde]

I went to CCS Tuning (http://www.ccstuning.com/index.htm) in Pflugerville (just outside of Austin) to have my Steeda U/D pullies installed and to have a proper dyno tune done.

Jim knows his stuff!! He took his time and did it right! In fact I was there the entire day, I didn't mind really. I'd rather spend the whole there once rather than having to go back to correct things a couple times.

At one point while installing the pullies he realized he didn't have the right tool to reinstall the harmonic balancer, so we went down to Harbor Freight and he got what he needed, then we had lunch. :P He also fixed a vacuum leak I didn't know existed. :up:

It was a bit scary when he had my MM on the dyno. At 125 mph, she roared! I could feel the ground vibrate! :eek:
http://www.mercurymarauder.net/gallery/data/500/medium/125mph_on_dyno.jpg

OK,.. before I post my dyno sheet let me make one thing clear:

The dyno was performed on a 'Mustang Dyno' not on a 'Dyno Jet' The number's are going to be alot lower than what we are used to seeing for Marauders with similar mods.

http://www.mercurymarauder.net/gallery/data/500/medium/2_jul_05_dyno_run.jpg

Looks kinda low huh? Well,.. The ride is nice and smooth, the shifts are firm, and she runs like a bat of of hell, and most importantly. The tune is safe! I had some detonation in the base run,.. it's gone.

I know some folks here are going to have problem with those numbers. I think the way she drives is far more important than the numbers. I guess I'm gonna have to go the the track now, just so the 'nay-sayers' know I didn't have my car de-tuned. Trust me. She'll run.. :burnout:

Maybe I'll go to a Dyno jet and do a few pulls just for $h!t$ and grins. My guess is: 265-270? on a dyno jet?

Bottom line: My Marauder runs 100% better than with the Super Chips Micro tuner and I found a new mechanic that'll do the job right! :up:

[Donny Carlson]

I know some folks here are going to have problem with those numbers. I think the way she drives is far more important than the numbers. I guess I'm gonna have to go the the track now, just so the 'nay-sayers' know I didn't have my car de-tuned. Trust me. She'll run.. :burnout:

Maybe I'll go to a Dyno jet and do a few pulls just for $h!t$ and grins. My guess is: 265-270? on a dyno jet
Tom, I wonder if the fact they show your car too light (4250 lbs) is a factor in the rwhp figures? I say this because my D-PIC calculates rwhp based on the weight of the car, and the instructions say accuracy of the calculation will show hp too low if you enter the car as too light, too high if you enter the car as too heavy.

[SergntMac]

The ride is nice and smooth, the shifts are firm, and she runs like a bat of of hell, and most importantly. The tune is safe! I had some detonation in the base run,.. it's gone.

I know some folks here are going to have problem with those numbers. I think the way she drives is far more important than the numbers. I guess I'm gonna have to go the the track now, just so the 'nay-sayers' know I didn't have my car de-tuned. Trust me. She'll run. Bottom line: My Marauder runs 100% better than with the Super Chips Micro tuner and I found a new mechanic that'll do the job right! :up:That's all that really counts, Tom, no need to defend you choice of dynos. As long as YOU know where you're at, and you're pleased with the performance, what else matters?

[Rider90]

I agree with Mac, as long as your happy nothing else matters.

"Cat overheat at end of run" :confused:

[Petrograde]

Thanks Sarge,.. I agree.

Donny,.. I thought 4200 lbs is what the car weighed. I would think the lighter it is, more HP/TRQ would be indicated? Is that correct?

BTW- it was at least 103 degrees in the shop.

To the folks in Central Texas, you should go check out Jim at CCS Tuning. He really is a top notch tuner and wrench turner. :up: Just so ya know,.. I'm not getting any finder's fees or anythink else. Just trying to help out my fellow Marauderers!

[Smokie]

Tom, I am really glad you are really pleased with results, because that is more important than any number. Yes, those numbers are not compareable to a dynojet, different machine, different parameters.

The car weights about 4250 plus fuel and driver (and crap in the trunk) the lower the weight entered into the equation the lower your power numbers will be. However when you drive your car..... you know.:beer:

[Pat]

Can you tell us what was causing the vacuum leak?
Thanks

[Petrograde]

Can you tell us what was causing the vacuum leak?
Thanks

...me... I incorrectly reinstalled my PVC tube after installing my PHP intake spacer. :o


The car weights about 4250 plus fuel and driver (and crap in the trunk) the lower the weight entered into the equation the lower your power numbers will be.

Thanks,.. actually I didn't have aything in my trunk (not even my 66 lb spare tire) ..and I weigh about a buck fifty. So, I guess it's pretty close.

[Smokie]

Thanks,.. actually I didn't have aything in my trunk (not even my 66 lb spare tire) ..and I weigh about a buck fifty. So, I guess it's pretty close.Tom, how would you describe the SOTP feel after spacer and U/D's ??? Hard to tell difference ??? or can really notice difference!!!!

[Petrograde]

Tom, how would you describe the SOTP feel after spacer and U/D's ??? Hard to tell difference ??? or can really notice difference!!!!

Ya know,.. it's kinda hard to tell. When I put the intake spacer on last week, I didn't really feel much (if any) of a difference. But, at the time I just created a vacuum leak I didn't know about, and my car was running very lean according to the first run. IIRC my AFR was 15.9? So,.. It's hard to tell.

Now, the the pullies on the other hard, I can really feel those! They spool up the engine much quicker! That combined with my greatly improved shift points makes a giant difference! :burnout:

I went out to run some errands a little earlier, she was really moving! Great responsiveness. ...and it's 100 degrees here. :cool:

:burnout: :burnout: :burnout:

[RAUDER]

Great to hear of your new found power! Was the dyno tune program saved on your tuner?

[Logan]

So.... Let me get this straight... You come into town to get your car worked on, not 10 minutes from my place and DON'T call me?

You bastard. YOU BASTARD.

No more soup for you. :banned:

[Petrograde]

Great to hear of your new found power! Was the dyno tune program saved on your tuner?

yup,.. on my new XCalibrator2 :cool:


So.... Let me get this straight... You come into town to get your car worked on, not 10 minutes from my place and DON'T call me?

oh shisse.. my bad Logan. I guess I should've called you. There are a few more Marauders down in that neck of the woods huh? I didn't even think of it :depress:

You're right,.. I don't deserve soup. :alone:




:P

[rayjay]

I did pulls on a Mustang Dyno last September at the local technical college. My numbers were also low. The instructor running the operation said the Mustang Dyno is used more for diagnostic work on everyday cars. I had the PHP airbox, intake spacer and chip. I was at 227hp and 248tq. I have since added a JLT air tube to the setup and had the car dyno tuned at a shop in PA. The tune made a night and day difference in the car. If anyone is fence sitting on a dyno tune, do it! It is worth every penny.

[madingo]

Just wanted to clarify a couple of things:

1: Tom did not screw anything up on the PCV-it was a rubber fitting that was, for whatever reason, loose, kiinda like underwear run too hot in the dryer. 4 zipties tightened the fittings on that hose, and was fine.

2: The mustang is a loaded dyno, that simulates real-world conditions, and is useful for all testing and tuning, and I'll put it this way:

On an inertia dyno, you are literally testing your vehicle's ability to accelerate a honda civic. The loaded dyno uses the oem empty weight and aerodynamic load from lab testing, and the output to the wheels is an accurate indication of the power output in the specific car tested. The further the difference in weight from 2500# to your vehicle's weight and aerodynamic load, the further the power numbers will be off.

3: Real-world testing is important for a few reasons: Heavier loads require more fuel, and when the dyno is not giving you a real-world loaded condition, the AFR numbers are inaccurately indicating richer than actual-this is a problem, because it can be from .5-2.0 full points off in AFR. Second, because the dyno does not give real-world load, you simply will not catch detonation on the dyno that you most certainly will, in a Marauder have.

The knock retard system in the MM ranges from 7-3*, and even thought that gives you a small range of detonation safety, it will also give you a notchy acceleration, from the constant adding and subtracting of timing, like a see-saw. I'd bet money that a great many cars, MM or not, have this problem, as I see it most of the time, on previously tuned vehicles.

Catalytic converter overheat protection is the EFI system's way of cooling the converters with massive amount of fuel, when the cat temps exceed a certain temp, like 1650*. What that means, and what you are seeing, is a boatload of fuel dumped into the motor, indicated by the drastic drop in AFR, on the black line. This kills power, and is more than it needs to cool the cats (too much fuel too long melts them, too), and so, this function is turned off.

When you turn off CCOP, though, you need to manually fuel the corrrect amount of fuel to keeps the cats reasonably cool. I have found that 12-12.5:1 is sufficient to do this, and is the AFR you see in the final tune.

13:1 AFR would make slightly more HP, but safety is as much a consideration as maximum power, and is just as important. Add to that, a heavy vehicle.

I think that's about it, hope this stuff made sense!

jp

[madingo]

Trace data addition, for the AFR look... It is a crappy image, due to resizing, but the black line is the AFR line, and you will see that the oem AFR starts at 13.5:1, and drops under 11:1 AFR..

http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=68 45&stc=1

jp

[Petrograde]

Hey Jim,.. Thanks for the explanation! :up: I was hoping you'd sign on.

[madingo]

SHHH! I'm not here. Ya'll have the best smileys I've seen.

[SergntMac]

The mustang is a loaded dyno, that simulates real-world conditions, and is useful for all testing and tuning, and I'll put it this way:

On an inertia dyno, you are literally testing your vehicle's ability to accelerate a honda civic. The loaded dyno uses the oem empty weight and aerodynamic load from lab testing, and the output to the wheels is an accurate indication of the power output in the specific car tested. The further the difference in weight from 2500# to your vehicle's weight and aerodynamic load, the further the power numbers will be off. jp
I am not in disagreement with you, but I do hold an opposing view on dynos.

I have done dyno testing on a Mustang style dyno, and collected very inaccurate data. No way any MM with a Stage I kit can produce 385 RWHP and over 1300 RWTQ. No way. Yes, this is operator error, but it's error because the operator input the wrong data, which is my point. On a Mustang style dyno, you can make these adjustments, and while most folks would want accurate data from the pull, some like to play dyno poker too.

This is why formal racing associations like NASCAR and the NHRA prefer the DynoJet. No adjustments in vehicle data are possible, other than loading the car on the dyno correctly, and checking tire PSI. Uniformity in the setup delivers consistent results between machines. I have done dyno pulls on a DynoJet in several parts of the country, and my results have been within single digit RWHP and RWTQ of each other. If my MM makes 400 RWHP on my home dyno, it will make 398 to 402 RWHP in Atlanta, Detroit, and Cleveland.

The DynoJet uses a static 3400 pound dead weight drum, and how each car moves that drum is the test. When the MM was young and mods few, all of got the same results from a bone stock MM tested on a DynoJet, 240-ish RWHP, 250-ish RWTQ. We depend on this data as "norm", or, base performance to work forward from. This proves valuable to us here, when someone asks what mod delivers what performance. We can answer honestly, and within an expected margin of error. You don't get that norm by mixing in different dyno machines that produce different data.

Just as an example for the sake of this discussion, let's agree that under drive pulleys will deliver 10 RWHP and 10 RWTQ on a N/A Marauder. We know this because we all got the same results in our own experience across the country. But, now comes a member who used a Mustang (or DynaPack 2000) machine and he got 5/5, or, 15/15? Now what do we say? We can't compare or predict results any longer.

This was a problem with one of our performance vendors a while back. When he introduced his product, he honestly boasted of performance gains that didn't match our expectations, or, collective experience. The numbers appeared overstated, but the vendor was cooperative and it all worked out.

This confusion can be avoided when everyone agrees to respect the data delivered by the DynoJet. Even in my own situation, I could cross the 500 RWHP line and boast of that by showing data collected on a DynaPack 2000 dyno. However, the other half of the performance scale is 1/4 mile times, and a significantly higher RWHP/RWTQ would would not deliver matching race track performance. This is why formal race associations respect the DynoJet. It's accurate, and uniform across the board, without any chance of operator error.

For testing and tuning purposes, you explain your rationale very well and I do not disagree with any of that. I'm not saying the Mustang is useless, but results can cause confusion, as it has in this thread. All thing considered, Tom's got a top notch tuner working on his MM, IMHO. The final RW numbers are not all that relevant. Tom can get a DynoJet test another time, and we'll know where he's at with his mods and tune.

Just my .02c...