Racers Allert! #1 comes to ChicagoLand

[Bradley G]

Anybody going to Rt.66 Joliet Dragaway? The weekend of 29, 30 ,31st of July for some Drag racing/spectating?? :burnout:
Rumor has it, "The Fastest Marauder on the Planet" will be there! :eek:
Bradley G

[Rider90]

Anybody going to Rt.66 Joliet Dragaway? The weekend of 29, 30 ,31st of July for some Drag racing? :burnout:
Rumor has it, "The Fastest Marauder on the Planet" will be there! :eek:
Bradley G

If #1 is there I think I'd better find a way to show up, but no racing for me. Thanks Brad.

[Shaft333]

It'd probably be easier to talk me into playing paintball at the field that's just blocks from there.
But "the fastest Marauder?" Boring.

[MikesMerc]

It'd probably be easier to talk me into playing paintball at the field that's just blocks from there.
But "the fastest Marauder?" Boring.

Spoken like a true enthusiast :rolleyes:

[Slowpoke]

I didn't realize Zack was going to be there.

[MENINBLK]

Sounds like LK escaped from Georgia...

[MikesMerc]

I think Brad is referring to jerry barnes' #1 Trilogy car that now holds the fastest 1/4 mile and trap speed record.

[Smokie]

I think Brad is referring to jerry barnes' #1 Trilogy car that now holds the fastest 1/4 mile and trap speed record.Can you imagine Zack & Jerry goings heads up, no juice. That I would pay to see.:D

[Slowpoke]

Can you imagine Zack & Jerry goings heads up, no juice. That I would pay to see.:D


check Zack's timeslip.... if you take his reaction time to zero, his car does a quarter mile in under 11 seconds. No nitrous.. all the work done by him in his mom's garage.

[MikesMerc]

check Zack's timeslip.... if you take his reaction time to zero, his car does a quarter mile in under 11 seconds. No nitrous.. all the work done by him in his mom's garage.

That's not how timeslips work.

The ET is always beam to beam....it never includes the reaction time. The ET clock does not start until the the car is launched and breaks the staging beam.

[MikesMerc]

Can you imagine Zack & Jerry goings heads up, no juice. That I would pay to see.:D

Not really. Jerry has his car set up and tuned for NOS. To run without it now would be pointless.

Its no different than asking zack to run with smaller gears and the stock stall speed. That's not how zack set up his car and reduces the effectiveness of his other mods.

Its all in the combination:)

Edit - eh...thinking it over it would still be fun to see it :banana:

[Rider90]

LOL...that's not how timeslips work. :lol:

The ET is always beam to beam....it never includes the reaction time. The ET clock does not start until the the car is launched and breaks the staging beam.

Mike,

I have a feeling Rick knows how that works. He just pointed out that if the R/T was moved to .0 then the E/T would be sub-11.

[MikesMerc]

Mike,

I have a feeling Rick knows how that works. He just pointed out that if the R/T was moved to .0 then the E/T would be sub-11.

No it would not. If the R/T was zero, the E/T would not change at all.

I guess I'm not sure what you guess are trying to say. :confused: You can't subtract the R/T from the E/T if it was never in there to begin with. :dunno:

[Rider90]

No it would not. If the R/T was zero, the E/T would not change at all.
Ah, I got it now. Thanks.

[Slowpoke]

I just figured that the reaction time was counted toward the total quarter mile time. If i am wrong, oh well.

I still think Zack can push it further than he knows and can get under 11 with his present mods.

[MikesMerc]

Ah, I got it now. Thanks.

No problem. Sometimes we all get a little confused. :burnout:

[MikesMerc]

I still think Zack can push it further than he knows and can get under 11 with his present mods.

Hmmmm...now that would be interesting. Based on his current best time, he'd need about another 150 more horsepower. And you think he can do that without changing his set up? That's a stretch. But, hey, miracles do happen!

What's more likely is that he turns the wick up. Cause that's the only realistic way he'll knock 6 tenths off his time.

[Bradley G]

The only way reaction time has an effect on racing results, is bracket racing.
If Zacks car has over a half second better ET, under the twelve second mark,without major weight reduction, I need to know how.Also keep in mind Zacks run though an excellent time , was accomplished in October.
Whereas, Jerry Barnes' car, went much faster in the heat of July.
I have not seen the disclosure of mods, as to Zacks car.Can I have some Pens, Poke, for our Raffel?Race Ya for 'em!:D
Bradley G
I just figured that the reaction time was counted toward the total quarter mile time. If i am wrong, oh well.

I still think Zack can push it further than he knows and can get under 11 with his present mods.

[Mike M]

If the light turns green and I wait and smoke a cig before flooring it my e.t. would be the same as if I had a perfect light.

[Bradley G]

Absolitely:D

Bradley G


If the light turns green and I wait and smoke a cig before flooring it my e.t. would be the same as if I had a perfect light.

[Slowpoke]

remember that Rocky movie.... the one where he fights the russian? I cant remember if it came bbefore or after the one with Mr. T or if Mickey (Batman's Penguin) was in it or not.

anyway, Rocky is doing his own training..... lifting logs, pulling sleds, chopping wood, running in the snow.... and this big Russian is using all this high tech stuff and electronics... with this hot babe right there every step of the way.

Each one is training to reach their peak so they can fight each other and win.

got the picture in your mind???

Well, think of Zack as "Rocky", toiling away by himself in his mom's garage with a staticey sounding AM radio in the background, parts all over the place, grease everywhere, no fancy electrinics, just a bunch of tools and maybe a ham sandwwich for lunch.

Now the contrast... these other guys who get certified automobile professionals who do this for a living carefully placing components in their master's car, pulling dynos at each step, measuring twice, cutting once. guys wearing matching jumpsuits with company logos; other guys holding sleek aluminum clipboards looking on discussing various alternatives.....

These two cars both look alike [except for the grilles?] yet they were built using completely different philosophy and style. yet the performance is almost identical.

Can you now have an appreciation for the do-it-yourself garage mechanic? Look at it the way I do and I think you'll agree.

Not to disrespect the work of the professional and the people who hire them... i, myself, would never attempt what the lone wolf mechanic does, but can appreciate the effort and results acheived by him.

[Rider90]

Did Zack bake the ham sandwhich in the George Foreman Marauder Grill? I can see it now...

[Bradley G]

Great story Poke ! Ever thought of doing Infomercials!

No electronics? Are you sure? Grease everywhere in his Moms' Garage?:rolleyes:
Does this mean, No Pens for Me?!
Bradley G

remember that Rocky movie.... the one where he fights the russian? I cant remember if it came bbefore or after the one with Mr. T or if Mickey (Batman's Penguin) was in it or not.

anyway, Rocky is doing his own training..... lifting logs, pulling sleds, chopping wood, running in the snow.... and this big Russian is using all this high tech stuff and electronics... with this hot babe right there every step of the way.

Each one is training to reach their peak so they can fight each other and win.

got the picture in your mind???

Well, think of Zack as "Rocky", toiling away by himself in his mom's garage with a staticey sounding AM radio in the background, parts all over the place, grease everywhere, no fancy electrinics, just a bunch of tools and maybe a ham sandwwich for lunch.

Now the contrast... these other guys who get certified automobile professionals who do this for a living carefully placing components in their master's car, pulling dynos at each step, measuring twice, cutting once. guys wearing matching jumpsuits with company logos; other guys holding sleek aluminum clipboards looking on discussing various alternatives.....

These two cars both look alike [except for the grilles?] yet they were built using completely different philosophy and style. yet the performance is almost identical.

Can you now have an appreciation for the do-it-yourself garage mechanic? Look at it the way I do and I think you'll agree.

Not to disrespect the work of the professional and the people who hire them... i, myself, would never attempt what the lone wolf mechanic does, but can appreciate the effort and results acheived by him.

[MikesMerc]

These two cars both look alike [except for the grilles?] yet they were built using completely different philosophy and style. yet the performance is almost identical.


No disrespect to anyone here, but your blowing the differences between the approaches completely out of porportion.

Jerry's car is hardly "high tech." Aside from Lidio's tune, which is admittedly a very good tune and takes real skill, everything else Jerry has done can be done by anyone. Everything Jerry has done is a "bolt-on." For the most part Jerry bolted on the Trilogy kit and then hit it with the NOS. Nothing super duper high tech that was performed in an underground bunker somewhere. What Jerry DID do that was a key to success was parts selection.

Zack did not fabricate his blower kit. He also bought it and bolted it on. He could buy a NOS kit and bolt that on too if he chose to.

The only difference between the two cars is that Jerry had someone else "turn the wrench" while zack turned the wrench himslef. Given the fact that both cars are comprised of "bolt on" parts that anyone can buy, the actual "turning of the wrench" is no big deal. There is no art, science, and fabrication happening at that point. And while zack has the luxury of living at home with his mom, Jerry has a business to run and a family to be with. It certainly takes nothing away from Jerry that he had Lidio turn the wrench. Heck, I used to do all my own work too...I've installed gears, blowers, etc over the years. But, now that I too have a demanding full time job and a family, I choose to have someone else "turn the wrench."

If you want to look at what the real differences between the philosophies and cars are, look at the choice of parts and the tune. That's the real difference.

One final note. Although Zack's car is certianly VERY fast (much faster than me anyway), the performance isn't even close to "identical" to Jerry's car. Zack running 11.6 in the cold october air, while Jerry ran 11.2 in July heat says these cars are very different. Put Jerry in the cold, or zack in the heat, and you'll easily see that 4 tenths grow to 6 tenths or more! And when you are already running in the 11s with a 4300lb car, the law of dimishing returns takes over big time. To get those last few tenths is very very difficult. Make no mistake, zack and the others have a looooong way to go to catch Jerry at this point.

Again, no disrespect at all to zack or anyone else in the 11 second range, but Jerry's car is sitting firmly atop the others by head and shoulders. And what's even more special about it was that he is putting up these incredible numbers from a stock compression, stock headed, stock cammed, ungutted Marauder.Lumping anyone else with him his not only inaccurate but it reduces the acheivement. Jerry chose the parts he did for a reason, and chose Lidio to tune it for a reason. Lidio tuned it the way he did for a reason. This was a well thought out plan that came together. Jerry deserves the kudos for masterminding the build, and Lidio the credit for a superior tune. Not to mention Jerry had to shoe the car to get that timeslip. And, to anyone that dosn't know, running a heavy 4300lb car into the low 11s with stock suspension and no slicks is one helluva thing to do. It took Jerry quite a bit of seat time, and good track conditions, to pull it off.

I'm sure some day Jerry's performance will be beat. I know he isn't going to stop pushing forward either. But, until someone else steps up big time, he's the man to beat.

[Zack]

If anyone can donate a nitrous kit very soon, I will have the car tuned and ready to race by the Chicagoland event. Stock motor and all.

[MikesMerc]

If anyone can donate a nitrous kit very soon, I will have the car tuned and ready to race by the Chicagoland event. Stock motor and all.

Now we're talking :banana:

BTW zack, I mean no disrespect to your acheivements with my above posts. As far as I am concerned, you are still the man to beat for mere mortals such as myself. I don't have the inclination to go the Blower + NOS route myself and risk it. Hat's off if you try it! I'd love to see what your car could do with NOS!

[Slowpoke]

i certainly did not mean to diminish Jerry's accomplishments either... in fact, when the time comes for me to install a S/C, I will be calling him to order his [and have Zack do the install].

[Shaft333]

Spoken like a true enthusiast :rolleyes:
Hah! No sarcasm necessary. I'm not enthusiastic about it at all. I don't go ga-ga over #1.

But I suppose unless I'm into drag racing, I can't be enthusiastic about Marauders? Is that the rule here? :down:

[Hack Goby]

Stock motor and all.
Good point Zack,The cars are not equal but both very fast.I hate threads like this(But im not mad at you Bradley)because they always end up in flames with other people throwing gas on them.

[Tallboy]

Quick question here-didn't Lidio also tune Zack's car? I give mad props to both these guys, but we're overlooking Lidio's car in this conversation also. Like it or not, juice or no juice, faster is faster. And right now, two Trilogy cars sit atop the boards with a Vortech in third. Most impressive.:up:

[Bradley G]

Fellas!, It is what it is! I think we can put the Bull ****z behind us!

I Love fast Marauders, no matter how they get that way!
I think it would be rather dull if everyone was the same! :P
Kapeesh ??
Stay tuned!:lol: You may just be treated to the Showdown in Chi-Town!
Bradley G
Shaft: go play with your Paintball's :jk:

[SergntMac]

Quick question here-didn't Lidio also tune Zack's car?Yep. Right after he tuned my MM, late last December. Both of us came away with less power and have since retuned.

I'm a bit confused on one point. The Trilogy MM that recently ran the 11.2x, can anyone collect a correct list of mods in one post? To hear it referred to as a stock MM, makes me dizzy. I may have the wrong trilogy car in mind too.

[Bradley G]

World's Fastest Marauder, is the Thread where the Mods that Jerry Barnes has done to #1 are listed.It is not stock:burnout:
Bradley G
Yep. Right after he tuned my MM, late last December. Both of us came away with less power and have since retuned.

I'm a bit confused on one point. The Trilogy MM that recently ran the 11.2x, can anyone collect a correct list of mods in one post? To hear it referred to as a stock MM, makes me dizzy. I may have the wrong trilogy car in mind too.

[Rider90]

World's Fastest Marauder, is the Thread where the Mods that Jerry Barnes has done to #1 are listed.It is not stock:burnout:
Bradley G

http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?t=19601&page=1&pp=15

Rebuilt short block, stock compression and bore, some forged internals
Trilogy kit with 2.8 pulley
90mm Mass Air meter and 60lb injectors
100 shot of NOS (dry system)
Rebuilt trans with hardened bands and shift kit
Auburn rear, 4.10 gears, and custom 31 spline axles
Kooks headers and exhaust
Focus fuel pump
Battery in the trunk
Balanced drive shaft
K&N cold air kit

Which brings me to question, was Zack on the laughing gas?

[bigslim]

Alright, just like the old days. Everyone bickering over which is better. "Happy Days Are Here Again!"

[SergntMac]

http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?t=19601&page=1&pp=15

Rebuilt short block, stock compression and bore, some forged internals
Trilogy kit with 2.8 pulley
90mm Mass Air meter and 60lb injectors
100 shot of NOS (dry system)
Rebuilt trans with hardened bands and shift kit
Auburn rear, 4.10 gears, and custom 31 spline axles
Kooks headers and exhaust
Focus fuel pump
Battery in the trunk
Balanced drive shaft
K&N cold air kit

Which brings me to question, was Zack on the laughing gas?Interesting list, it inspires questions, but I'll pass. No, Zack has just one power adder, a Vortech in SC trim.

[Bradley G]

Insipires questions?

What might those be?
I would love to see this thread stay on the Track, so to speak! Happiness is as Happiness does.
Please share everything, except opinions!
{QUOTE}Zack has just one power adder, a Vortech in SC trim.
For Now!:D
Bradley G

[Hack Goby]

Lidio and along with some help from Selfrige Air Force Base here in Mt.Clemens will be installing this in my Marauder next week in time for Joliet.We will see whos the fastest then. http://home.comcast.net/~hack_goby/motor_dv2.jpg

[Zack]

Quick question here-didn't Lidio also tune Zack's car?
He sure did. 4 hour trip to lose 40 lbs of torque.
Lidio is a good wrench, but I do not agree with his method of tuning, nor would SCT.
You see, to nail down you A/F ratio, you must make corrections to the Mass Air Transfer Function. By doing this, you can achieve a near dead flat A/F line.
Lidio makes A/F adjustments through the base fuel table. Essentially, this just tells the injectors to add or subtract fuel at a specified rpm.
It is almost impossible to end up with a sexy A/F line going this route.
By tuning through the MAF transfer function, the computer can always compensate for any variables not present at the time of the tune.
It doesnt really matter to me, you live you learn right.
But my car has never run better since being tuned at Sutton Ford in Matteson, Il.

[Zack]

And just another little tidbit of info regarding the upcoming event at Route 66.
If Jerry Barnes goes faster than 11.49, he will not be permitted to continue racing, period.
Route 66 is the worlds fastest track, and they dont pull any punches.
Roll cage required.

[Bradley G]

Homewood Il. to Mt Clemens Mi. in four hours?
:bows: Musta' had the Sarge with!
Bradley G

He sure did. 4 hour trip to lose 40 lbs of torque.
Lidio is a good wrench, but I do not agree with his method of tuning, nor would SCT.
You see, to nail down you A/F ratio, you must make corrections to the Mass Air Transfer Function. By doing this, you can achieve a near dead flat A/F line.
Lidio makes A/F adjustments through the base fuel table. Essentially, this just tells the injectors to add or subtract fuel at a specified rpm.
It is almost impossible to end up with a sexy A/F line going this route.
By tuning through the MAF transfer function, the computer can always compensate for any variables not present at the time of the tune.
It doesnt really matter to me, you live you learn right.
But my car has never run better since being tuned at Sutton Ford in Matteson, Il.

[2003 MIB]

But my car has never run better since being tuned at Sutton Ford in Matteson, Il.
Great post Zack- Who does the tuning at Sutton Ford? Got a name?

[Zack]

Great post Zack- Who does the tuning at Sutton Ford? Got a name?

Jerry Vanderline 708-720-8500

[2003 MIB]

Jerry Vanderline 708-720-8500
Always good to know- Thank you, Sir!

[SergntMac]

Jerry VanDerlinde 708-720-8500
What a dedicated man. Spent 13 hours tuning my MM after my engine upgrade, and delivered 478 RWHP/434 RWTQ, with a flat 11.0 AFR. Now I'm back in line for an update after a MAF transfer, and I'm hoping for 500+ RWHP and 450+RWTQ. Fingers crossed!

[MikesMerc]

I hate threads like this(But im not mad at you Bradley)because they always end up in flames with other people throwing gas on them.

What I don't understand is how "other" cars were even brought into this thread. Bradley was making an obvious reference to jerry's car within the title of the thread. I'm a bit disappointed that a few folks took it as an opportunity to cause trouble:(

[MikesMerc]

I'm a bit confused on one point. The Trilogy MM that recently ran the 11.2x, can anyone collect a correct list of mods in one post? To hear it referred to as a stock MM, makes me dizzy.

Who referred to it as "stock"? Are you talking about my reference to the car having stock compression, stock heads, and stock cams?

Those are very important notations. Anyone can stuff in a huge motor and run better times. The point being made about stock compression, heads, and cams is that the motor essentially puts out the same power now as it did from the factory without power adders. That's a very important point.

[Slowpoke]

Jerry Vanderline 708-720-8500


Gerry is spelled with a 'G'

actually this is good to help distinguish from another excellent tuner: Jerry W

[MikesMerc]

If Jerry Barnes goes faster than 11.49, he will not be permitted to continue racing, period.
Route 66 is the worlds fastest track, and they dont pull any punches.
Roll cage required.

Man, I'd love to be able to run fast enough to be booted off the track! That would be a great accomplishment :banana:

[Bradley G]

I wonder how that conversation goes?

Zack, why don't you share with the members your experience with this situation.
If you are able to run at RT 66 in two weeks, .You won't be facing Jerry Barnes, racing #1, It will one or more of his crew.
How about my offer? might be just what you need to get there?:D
Bradley G

Man, I'd love to be able to run fast enough to be booted off the track! That would be a great accomplishment :banana:

[MikesMerc]

I wonder how that conversation goes?


Something like this:

Jerry pulls up to the time slip booth after making an 11.3 pass. The timeslip guy hands Jerry his timeslip and says "nice run....oh, and, by the way, you're done for the day. You have no roll cage. Ba-bye"

Jerry heads back to the pit with a smile on his face and leaves his Marauder in sight for curious folks who want to see and know more about the car.

Just another good day at the track:)

[Slowpoke]

I believe Zack's conversation went very much like that.... it's buried deep inside the threads here somewhere....

I remember forcasting [in retrospect, I was wrong] that within 6 months Zack would have installed a rollcage.

I seem to be wrong a lot! I guess being wrong once in a while is good - means I am taking chances, etc.

But no one stays mad at Slowpoke for long..... c'mon... c'mon... spread the love, spread the joy.




Something like this:

Jerry pulls up to the time slip booth after making an 11.3 pass. The timeslip guy hands Jerry his timeslip and says "nice run....oh, and, by the way, you're done for the day. You have no roll cage. Ba-bye"

Jerry heads back to the pit with a smile on his face and leaves his Marauder in sight for curious folks who want to see and know more about the car.

Just another good day at the track:)

[TooManyFords]

You see, to nail down you A/F ratio, you must make corrections to the Mass Air Transfer Function. By doing this, you can achieve a near dead flat A/F line. A/F adjustments through the base fuel table just tells the injectors to add or subtract fuel at a specified rpm and it is almost impossible to end up with a sexy A/F line going this route.

By tuning through the MAF transfer function, the computer can always compensate for any variables not present at the time of the tune.
Pardon my paraphrasing in the quote, but I think I'm about to learn something here.

What is the Mass Air Transfer Function and how does it work? Second, what sort of variable can this tune compensate for and just how much compensation is it able to make? Say I get it dialed in and then decide to add a 35 shot of Nos, does it have to be before or after the MAF? Does it work in concert with the IAT sensor? (ie does the nos have to be injected -before- the IAT?)

I understand the concept of base fuel tables. Anyone that has ever seen a spreadsheet can comprehend this. So help shed some light on this method of tuning!

Thanks in advance, Zack

John

(PS: the Grill looks very sexy in shades of black, orange, yellow and red!)

[Zack]

John, when the MAF is set up properly, it will only benefit the car.
Variables such as water temp, air temp and even the octane of the gas you put in can affect the way it runs, performance and safety.

When I see you next, I will show you the software.

[GreekGod]

Ain't that cheatin?
Lidio and along with some help from Selfrige Air Force Base here in Mt.Clemens will be installing this in my Marauder next week in time for Joliet.We will see whos the fastest then. http://home.comcast.net/~hack_goby/motor_dv2.jpg

[Hack Goby]

Ain't that cheatin?
Nope! I trick is I will have a roll cage. :D

[GreekGod]

Since I have the 2nd slowest 1/4 mile time posted on this site (15.742 @ 92.02 mph) and it was done on a 84 degree humid Michigan day, it would be nice to think a cool day will get me a 15.50 or better!
No disrespect to anyone here, but your blowing the differences between the approaches completely out of porportion.

Jerry's car is hardly "high tech." Aside from Lidio's tune, which is admittedly a very good tune and takes real skill, everything else Jerry has done can be done by anyone. Everything Jerry has done is a "bolt-on." For the most part Jerry bolted on the Trilogy kit and then hit it with the NOS. Nothing super duper high tech that was performed in an underground bunker somewhere. What Jerry DID do that was a key to success was parts selection.

Zack did not fabricate his blower kit. He also bought it and bolted it on. He could buy a NOS kit and bolt that on too if he chose to.

The only difference between the two cars is that Jerry had someone else "turn the wrench" while zack turned the wrench himslef. Given the fact that both cars are comprised of "bolt on" parts that anyone can buy, the actual "turning of the wrench" is no big deal. There is no art, science, and fabrication happening at that point. And while zack has the luxury of living at home with his mom, Jerry has a business to run and a family to be with. It certainly takes nothing away from Jerry that he had Lidio turn the wrench. Heck, I used to do all my own work too...I've installed gears, blowers, etc over the years. But, now that I too have a demanding full time job and a family, I choose to have someone else "turn the wrench."

If you want to look at what the real differences between the philosophies and cars are, look at the choice of parts and the tune. That's the real difference.

One final note. Although Zack's car is certianly VERY fast (much faster than me anyway), the performance isn't even close to "identical" to Jerry's car. Zack running 11.6 in the cold october air, while Jerry ran 11.2 in July heat says these cars are very different. Put Jerry in the cold, or zack in the heat, and you'll easily see that 4 tenths grow to 6 tenths or more! And when you are already running in the 11s with a 4300lb car, the law of dimishing returns takes over big time. To get those last few tenths is very very difficult. Make no mistake, zack and the others have a looooong way to go to catch Jerry at this point.

Again, no disrespect at all to zack or anyone else in the 11 second range, but Jerry's car is sitting firmly atop the others by head and shoulders. And what's even more special about it was that he is putting up these incredible numbers from a stock compression, stock headed, stock cammed, ungutted Marauder.Lumping anyone else with him his not only inaccurate but it reduces the acheivement. Jerry chose the parts he did for a reason, and chose Lidio to tune it for a reason. Lidio tuned it the way he did for a reason. This was a well thought out plan that came together. Jerry deserves the kudos for masterminding the build, and Lidio the credit for a superior tune. Not to mention Jerry had to shoe the car to get that timeslip. And, to anyone that dosn't know, running a heavy 4300lb car into the low 11s with stock suspension and no slicks is one helluva thing to do. It took Jerry quite a bit of seat time, and good track conditions, to pull it off.

I'm sure some day Jerry's performance will be beat. I know he isn't going to stop pushing forward either. But, until someone else steps up big time, he's the man to beat.

[GreekGod]

Looks like you will need a bubble hood scoop and a reinforced frame for the "motor" mounts, and a parachute, and absorbent underwear, and......
Lidio and along with some help from Selfrige Air Force Base here in Mt.Clemens will be installing this in my Marauder next week in time for Joliet.We will see whos the fastest then. http://home.comcast.net/~hack_goby/motor_dv2.jpg

[svtguy]

Anybody going to Rt.66 Joliet Dragaway? The weekend of 29, 30 ,31st of July for some Drag racing/spectating?? :burnout:
Rumor has it, "The Fastest Marauder on the Planet" will be there! :eek:
Bradley GIf you had to pick a single day of that weekend to see the fastest Marauders on the planet, which would it be? Did I miss that info in here?

[Hack Goby]

Aug 19 they will be 35 Marauders at Milan Dragway.Not all of the fastest cars will be there but alot will.Procharger,Vortec,and Trilogy will all have at least one car in the event. :burnout:

[MikesMerc]

If you had to pick a single day of that weekend to see the fastest Marauders on the planet, which would it be? Did I miss that info in here?

I just learned yesterday that Jerry has a previous personal commitment (wedding to attend) which will keep him away from the event that weekend. He had forgoten all about that when he spoke to Bradley the other day, but disappointedly told me about it last night.

As a contingency plan, Jerry has graciously offered to let Slim and I bring #1 and his newly supercharged F-150 to the event and let me pedal #1 down the track. Sounds like a blast if I can get permission from the family to be away another weekend. I'll keep the thread updated as to what happens.

[SergntMac]

As a contingency plan, Jerry has graciously offered to let Slim and I bring #1 and his newly supercharged F-150 to the event and let me pedal #1 down the track. Sounds like a blast if I can get permission from the family to be away another weekend. I'll keep the thread updated as to what happens.
Keep me posted by e-mail too, Mike, please? Let me know what dates you two will be there? I'll have some cold ones in the trunk (and they are not bodies...Yet).

Looking forward to hooking up with you.

[Smokie]

I thought this was going to get ugly....you gentleman showed a lot of class, took it to the edge and pulled back.

Earlier I mentioned how exciting it would be to see Zack and Jerry go heads up without the nitrous, also Lidio and Marty. Think about it, the 4 of them racing on the same track, the same day. NO NITROUS.

Mike had mentioned that his car (Jerry's) is now setup for nitrous and tuned accordingly...I would have thought that both Jerry and Lidio have a tune for max power with nitrous and also a tune for max power without nitrous....maybe this is not possible....but why not???

Anyway, can anyone tell me what is the fastest MM. 1/4 mile E.T. on a single power adder??????

Thanks.:)

[MikesMerc]

Keep me posted by e-mail too, Mike, please? Let me know what dates you two will be there? I'll have some cold ones in the trunk (and they are not bodies...Yet).

Looking forward to hooking up with you.

I'll keep you posted for sure Mac. I'd like to get a chance to meet you in person and put back a few colds ones as well.



Mike had mentioned that his car (Jerry's) is now setup for nitrous and tuned accordingly...I would have thought that both Jerry and Lidio have a tune for max power with nitrous and also a tune for max power without nitrous....maybe this is not possible....but why not???

Its just a matter of getting it done. Jerry's set up does have 2 tunes...NOS and no NOS. When the NOS is activated, the computer automatically switches to the NOS tune...which works great. On the other hand, the non NOS tune hasn't really been maximized. I'm sure it would run okay, but it is a very very conservative tune. No one invisioned having to run the car at the track without the NOS. Once the decision to go with NOS was made, the focus was put there without lookng back to just the blower. The non NOS tune took Jerry to the 11.90 range in 85 degree heat, so its no slouch. It just hasn't been maxmized.



Anyway, can anyone tell me what is the fastest MM. 1/4 mile E.T. on a single power adder??????


If I had to guess, this might be Zack's car....at least as far as published times go. Jerry and Lidio took things as far as the 11.8 - 11.9 range with just the blower. However, they never really tried to push beyond that point once NOS was decided upon. The NOS was chosen not only as an additional power adder, but as a way to run more consistently in very hot weather, and have a very conservative and safe non-NOS tune for basic street duty. In addition, Lidio and Jerry wanted to stick with the stock torque converter, and Lidio with the stock exhaust. These are items they could have changed to be faster in the quarter mile but they chose not to. For them, NOS was the better idea. Accordingly, pushing the envelope further with the blower only fell by the wayside early last year.

Hope that makes some sense:)

[Smokie]

...Hope that makes some sense:)It does Mike, this may not be the correct place to ask, we can move question to the garage if necessary. Do you know how a dry nitrous system works, Jerry mention it. Dry system injects after or before MAF ????

[MikesMerc]

Both wet and dry systems inject after the Mass Air Meter. The real difference to them is that the additional fuel in a wet system is added by a nozzle before the intake, and a dry system uses the fuel injectors to deliver the needed extra fuel. Wet systems can make more power but they have a down side. That is that the atomized fuel can sometimes puddle in the intake tract and if there is any kind of backfire...KABOOM...the intake explodes. Dry systems are safer when it comes to disasterous backfire conditions, but they are limited by the injectors ability to deliver fuel. And, if you run lean...KABOOM goes the motor.

Dry systems are good when you have "plenty of injector" and your looking for adding a simple 125 shot or less. Wet systems are preferred when they are the only power adder as they make more power. When it comes to adding NOS to a blower motor, a dry system is preferred.

[Smokie]

Both wet and dry systems inject after the Mass Air Meter. The real difference to them is that the additional fuel in a wet system is added by a nozzle before the intake, and a dry system uses the fuel injectors to deliver the needed extra fuel. Wet systems can make more power but they have a down side. That is that the atomized fuel can sometimes puddle in the intake tract and if there is any kind of backfire...KABOOM...the intake explodes. Dry systems are safer when it comes to disasterous backfire conditions, but they are limited by the injectors ability to deliver fuel. And, if you run lean...KABOOM goes the motor.

When it comes to adding NOS to a blower motor, a dry system is preferred.Thanks for taking the time, since the extra oxygen (NO2) goes in after MAF, how does it measure how much fuel to add???

[MikesMerc]

Thanks for taking the time, since the extra oxygen (NO2) goes in after MAF, how does it measure how much fuel to add???

The thing to remember is that a MAF cannot accurately measure the increase O2 when NOS is used. The MAF "infers" passing air flow mass by measuring how much the incoming air cools down the little wire in the sample tube of the MAF. When NOS is run through, it cools the wire further telling the computer more air is passing through, but its not in proper proportion as if actual air flow was moving through the meter. The calibration doesn't work like that. In addition, running NOS though the MAF also messes with the AIT sensor too.

Instead, the way to do it is with a custom fuel table for WOT application. The NOS only flows at WOT. This isn't as hard as it sounds either. By allowing the MAF to measure the actual air only, then adding a bump to the fuel table throughout the rpm range to compensate for the NOS at WOT, you're done. In a way, all you're doing is setting the air/fuel ratio to be super rich (if there was no NOS delivery). Of course a dyno tune with wide band O2 sesnsors is needed to make sure your air/fuel ratio is where you want it to be is critical.

Since you are only worried about the extra fuel at WOT, you let the MAF take care of the part throttle conditions just like usual...and this is where good metering is needed for good driveability.

[Zack]

The thing to remember is that a MAF cannot accurately measure the increase O2 when NOS is used. The MAF "infers" passing air flow mass by measuring how much the incoming air cools down the little wire in the sample tube of the MAF. When NOS is run through, it cools the wire further telling the computer more air is passing through, but its not in proper proportion as if actual air flow was moving through the meter. The calibration doesn't work like that. In addition, running NOS though the MAF also messes with the AIT sensor too.

Instead, the way to do it is with a custom fuel table for WOT application. The NOS only flows at WOT. This isn't as hard as it sounds either. By allowing the MAF to measure the actual air only, then adding a bump to the fuel table throughout the rpm range to compensate for the NOS at WOT, you're done. In a way, all you're doing is setting the air/fuel ratio to be super rich (if there was no NOS delivery). Of course a dyno tune with wide band O2 sesnsors is needed to make sure your air/fuel ratio is where you want it to be is critical.

Since you are only worried about the extra fuel at WOT, you let the MAF take care of the part throttle conditions just like usual...and this is where good metering is needed for good driveability.

The base fuel table almost never needs to be touched, period.
A public value file is loaded from the SCT database and thats it.
Any A/F corrections that need to be made should be done through the MAF Transfer function. Whether you have NOS or not, you dont need to fool with the base fuel table.
On a side note, to clarify for everyone:
When you start to run out of fuel pump, the base fuel table can be adjusted to correct the situation. This is the only time you should have to mess with it.

[MikesMerc]

The base fuel table almost never needs to be touched, period.
A public value file is loaded from the SCT database and thats it.


No one ever said the base fuel table is touched.

"custom fuel table for WOT application" = "public value file is loaded from the SCT database"

Even then, you better take a run on a dyno with a wide band. I'd never trust a cookie cutter file.

[Smokie]

Mike and Zack: Thanks for the education.:D

[Bradley G]

Hey Hack,

Please give us more info, either in this thread or start a new one.
Donna @ Trilogy said my kit may be done on the 18th or 19th, If I am able to pick up my kit, I would love to see that many Marauders racing each other!
Bradley G

Aug 19 they will be 35 Marauders at Milan Dragway.Not all of the fastest cars will be there but alot will.Procharger,Vortec,and Trilogy will all have at least one car in the event. :burnout:

[Bradley G]

If you read my first comment, It say's #1 will be in Chicago, though Mr. Barnes is Numero uno in my book, I was actually referring to "The Fastest Marauder on the Planet".I was dissapointed to learn, Jerry would not be able to make it.

Jerry and I, each , have a family wedding to attend to, on Saturday.
Seems fitting Mike, that you and Slim, bring #1 to Chicago, to race it.
I will try and get there on Friday and Sunday!
Bradley G


I just learned yesterday that Jerry has a previous personal commitment (wedding to attend) which will keep him away from the event that weekend. He had forgoten all about that when he spoke to Bradley the other day, but disappointedly told me about it last night.

As a contingency plan, Jerry has graciously offered to let Slim and I bring #1 and his newly supercharged F-150 to the event and let me pedal #1 down the track. Sounds like a blast if I can get permission from the family to be away another weekend. I'll keep the thread updated as to what happens.

[Bradley G]

It appears Trilogy#1 will be there all Three days.
Sounds like Sarge is planning to bring some refreshments, I hope he intends to treat us to a show.
Zack has not said if he will race, without a donated Nos Kit.
Maybe Steven Garard will make an appearance!
Might be all three days are full of healthy competition?
I can't wait!:D
Bradley G

If you had to pick a single day of that weekend to see the fastest Marauders on the planet, which would it be? Did I miss that info in here?

[MikesMerc]

Jerry, Slim and I need to work out the details, but things seem to be a go for the weekend. Jerry WILL be there Thursday and Friday!! I will arrive Thursday PM. Jerry will leave Saturday am in time to make it for the wedding. We'll finsih racing and bring everything home for him on Sunday.

So, we'll have a mix bag of people at various times. Hey, whatever works! :)

[MI2QWK4U]

Jerry, Slim and I need to work out the details, but things seem to be a go for the weekend. Jerry WILL be there Thursday and Friday!! I will arrive Thursday PM. Jerry will leave Saturday am in time to make it for the wedding. We'll finsih racing and bring everything home for him on Sunday.

So, we'll have a mix bag of people at various times. Hey, whatever works! :)

Sounds like a good time in the making, got room for one more?!

[MikesMerc]

Absolutely!



Sounds like a good time in the making, got room for one more?!

[Lidio]

Lidio and along with some help from Selfrige Air Force Base here in Mt.Clemens will be installing this in my Marauder next week in time for Joliet.We will see whos the fastest then. http://home.comcast.net/~hack_goby/motor_dv2.jpg


The motor mounts should be in from the fabricator this week!!

The bell housing came in today :)

[Bradley G]

Jerry Barnes told me you were competitive!, Must be tough to push your buddies faster than your own! :D

Congradulations Lidio!,... you are. Da Man!!!:bows:
Bradley G
Now,... about that smaller pulley... :P

The motor mounts should be in from the fabricator this week!!

The bell housing came in today :)

[younga1]

See, engineers just don't get it!


It'd probably be easier to talk me into playing paintball at the field that's just blocks from there.
But "the fastest Marauder?" Boring.

[Lidio]

Yep. Right after he tuned my MM, late last December. Both of us came away with less power and have since retuned.





Sarg

I’m only gona say a couple of quick simple things here and stay way out of this if I can.

When you came here back in the fall, you left with less power because of your combination!!!
Not because of my tune. Your local engine builder made the mistake of lowering your compression which is at least what you told me at the time.
As I said back then (when you were here)…. For many years before all this has been happening with out MM’s…. and to this day. That is an absolute no, no with me and any one who knows what’s going on with 4.6L engines, especially the 4-valves. Lowering the compression from 10.1:1 which is what are MM are stock down to about 8.5:1 which is what most old school and unknowledgeable engine guys who really don’t follow the centrifugal scene typically do…it will cost you lots of HP and un-re-atainable low end TQ that can not be made up for in the tune in any way (which is what happened to you). You yourself told me that when you re-tuned and found more power elsewhere… you up'd to a T-trim and went up to like 15 or 17psi of boost I thought, don’t know for sure but I thought you told me you changed to a bigger blower and more boost then when you where here in MI.

And I can’t say for sure but I thought Zachs MM didn’t really loose any power when it was here, it just may not have met his expectations for what he had recently changed?

When some one makes comments about going to another shop and finding more RWHP then what I did, This kind of talk does nothing to bother me. In fact it happens a lot.
I’m known for being conservative and safe. As I’ve stated elsewhere “any one can throw in more spark and lean it out for more power” including my self, I just try to be more responsible then the rest of them. This is why Trilogy equipped cars that have left the boost stock or only raised it slightly are staying together and not blowing up all over the country. I know as much as the next guy how to find power or at least tune the most out of a given combo. Its making it live that counts for true street cars. My own MM has had 13.5psi of boost and about an 80 shot of NOS go through it all of last year with some great ET’s and some good coverage in the mag’s to boot. Not just a couple of lucky runs. It stayed together very well that whole time. Every where I go…. “what forged internal you got in that thing”? Nothing, its all stock. People just wont get it, They survive with the right octane and the right tune with the stock, junk pistons. This is where I want credit.

Peak numbers on a dyno just make for a great SIG,

I’m coming to Chicago as well in a couple of weeks with only my 05 GT.
My 2005 GT has over shadowed my MM and my Mach-1 unfortunately in the race to gain acceptance with this new car’s technologies, its new 5-speed auto trans and etc…

If I have to, I will figure out a way to bring my MM as well and go mid to low 11’s with totally stock exhaust and torque converter. My MM’s has not been sitting and totally taken a back seat this year to the ’05 GT though!! I’ve now up’d to 60lbs injectors and a SCT BA-2400 meter--- forged internals, freshened Eaton which now makes 15psi and will of course handle more NOS if I choose to.



Thanks

[sailsmen]

"Mustangs and Fast Fords" recently did a test on a Mod motor. Two identical builds except different compressions w/ an S/C. The higher compression motor developed significantly more power w/ less boost, the results were surprising.

I speculate that the rule of lower compression for S/C and Turbo was applicable when cars were tuned before todays sophisticated computers and sensors that can auotmatically adjust the tune to various conditions the engine encounters. :)

[bigslim]

Sarg

I’m only gona say a couple of quick simple things here and stay way out of this if I can.

When you came here back in the fall, you left with less power because of your combination!!!
Not because of my tune. Your local engine builder made the mistake of lowering your compression which is at least what you told me at the time.
As I said back then (when you were here)…. For many years before all this has been happening with out MM’s…. and to this day. That is an absolute no, no with me and any one who knows what’s going on with 4.6L engines, especially the 4-valves. Lowering the compression from 10.1:1 which is what are MM are stock down to about 8.5:1 which is what most old school and unknowledgeable engine guys who really don’t follow the centrifugal scene typically do…it will cost you lots of HP and un-re-atainable low end TQ that can not be made up for in the tune in any way (which is what happened to you). You yourself told me that when you re-tuned and found more power elsewhere… you up'd to a T-trim and went up to like 15 or 17psi of boost I thought, don’t know for sure but I thought you told me you changed to a bigger blower and more boost then when you where here in MI.

And I can’t say for sure but I thought Zachs MM didn’t really loose any power when it was here, it just may not have met his expectations for what he had recently changed?

When some one makes comments about going to another shop and finding more RWHP then what I did, This kind of talk does nothing to bother me. In fact it happens a lot.
I’m known for being conservative and safe. As I’ve stated elsewhere “any one can throw in more spark and lean it out for more power” including my self, I just try to be more responsible then the rest of them. This is why Trilogy equipped cars that have left the boost stock or only raised it slightly are staying together and not blowing up all over the country. I know as much as the next guy how to find power or at least tune the most out of a given combo. Its making it live that counts for true street cars. My own MM has had 13.5psi of boost and about an 80 shot of NOS go through it all of last year with some great ET’s and some good coverage in the mag’s to boot. Not just a couple of lucky runs. It stayed together very well that whole time. Every where I go…. “what forged internal you got in that thing”? Nothing, its all stock. People just wont get it, They survive with the right octane and the right tune with the stock, junk pistons. This is where I want credit.

Peak numbers on a dyno just make for a great SIG,

I’m coming to Chicago as well in a couple of weeks with only my 05 GT.
My 2005 GT has over shadowed my MM and my Mach-1 unfortunately in the race to gain acceptance with this new car’s technologies, its new 5-speed auto trans and etc…

If I have to, I will figure out a way to bring my MM as well and go mid to low 11’s with totally stock exhaust and torque converter. My MM’s has not been sitting and totally taken a back seat this year to the ’05 GT though!! I’ve now up’d to 60lbs injectors and a SCT BA-2400 meter--- forged internals, freshened Eaton which now makes 15psi and will of course handle more NOS if I choose to.



Thanks
You go get'em Lidio. I will be there also. Wish there was away to get Jerry's truck and my car there too at the same time.

[MI2QWK4U]

How far is this track from downtown Chicago...My sister lives near N Lakeshore Dr and W Irving Park Dr, near Montrose Harbor and Lincoln Park off the lake.

[Slowpoke]

How far is this track from downtown Chicago...My sister lives near N Lakeshore Dr and W Irving Park Dr, near Montrose Harbor and Lincoln Park off the lake.


holy smoke! that's not to far from me! If you ever visit her you drive right past where i live... what a small world!

[MI2QWK4U]

West Gordon Terrace close to you?

By the way, how far is this from the Rt.66 Joliet Dragaway?

[Smokie]

How far is this track from downtown Chicago...My sister lives near N Lakeshore Dr and W Irving Park Dr, near Montrose Harbor and Lincoln Park off the lake.Small world Dave, as a child I played in Lincoln Park, use to ride my bike there. I used to live near Elston and Belmont.
There used to be a Zoo there also, not sure if the Zoo still there.

[Hack Goby]

I Wish there was away to get Jerry's truck and my car there too at the same time.
Even though Im back to work then there might be the "Hack factor" in the equation.

[Bradley G]

There is Dude!

You tow your trailer QueenMarauder (on Jerry's open car trailer)with Jerry's new Trilogy supercharged Ford F-150 and beat everyone here to Chicago.:P Or apply the "Hack" factor!
Bradley G

You go get'em Lidio. I will be there also. Wish there was away to get Jerry's truck and my car there too at the same time.

[Slowpoke]

West Gordon Terrace close to you?

By the way, how far is this from the Rt.66 Joliet Dragaway?


I am right on Lake Shore Drive, downtown.

I think the drag strip is maybe 20 miles? someone will know better than I. I don't generally venture too far from home, except for the Chicken Run and an rare trip to IKEA. Although last Saturday, I did get to take a trip to 35th and State to see Mac. Now you know why I only have 12,300 miles on my car in the 33 months I've had it.

[Bradley G]

[QUOTE=MI2QWK4U]West Gordon Terrace close to you?

By the way, how far is this from the Rt.66 Joliet Dragaway?[/QUOhttp://www.chicagolandspeedway.com/images/r66/home_bottom_middle.gifTE]
Does this help?

[MI2QWK4U]

[QUOTE=MI2QWK4U]West Gordon Terrace close to you?

By the way, how far is this from the Rt.66 Joliet Dragaway?[/QUOhttp://www.chicagolandspeedway.com/images/r66/home_bottom_middle.gifTE]
Does this help?


Brad, I was looking for a distance or travel time from my sisters to the dragstrip.

[Bradley G]

I don't know your sisters adress or zipcode.

If you PM me the details, I will plug in both to mapquest and let you know:cool4:
Bradley G

Brad, I was looking for a distance or travel time from my sisters to the dragstrip.

[MM03MOK]

I don't know your sisters adress or zipcode.

If you PM me the details, I will plug in both to mapquest and let you know:cool4:
Bradley GHere ya go, Dave. http://www.mapquest.com/directions/main.adp?bCTsettings=1

http://www.chicagolandspeedway.com/cgi-bin/r.cgi/r66/directions_maps.html?SESSION=I vkQfRCta&N=c

[Bradley G]

Who Loves ya?, Who's your buddy? Who's your your pal? :bunny: :bunny2: :bows:

Bradley G


Here ya go, Dave. http://www.mapquest.com/directions/main.adp?bCTsettings=1

http://www.chicagolandspeedway.com/cgi-bin/r.cgi/r66/directions_maps.html?SESSION=I vkQfRCta&N=c

[Slowpoke]

here is what it looks like from a few miles above

http://tinyurl.com/7dw62

probably 35 miles give or take from downtown

[GreekGod]

Will that be a NP 435 stick? What about using a C4 or a C6?
The motor mounts should be in from the fabricator this week!!

The bell housing came in today :)

[Hack Goby]

The motor mounts should be in from the fabricator this week!!

The bell housing came in today :)
Lidio called me to tell me that the motor mounts are in and a pic of the bell housing. http://home.comcast.net/~hack_goby/bell_housing.jpg http://home.comcast.net/~hack_goby/jet_motor_mounts.jpg

[SergntMac]

Sarg I’m only gona say a couple of quick simple things here and stay way out of this if I can...You should have stuck to your plan, everything was cool with me until the name calling. When you characterize Randy Crowley as "old school" and "unknowledgeable" you are dead wrong, and you're being a jerk about it.

One. Randy Crowley did not make any mistakes in my engine build. We discussed, calculated and decided where we were going with the build and what we wanted out of it. We selected and installed JE forged aluminum pistons with an 11cc dish. As you know, in a 52cc combustion chamber environment (stock MM engine) this calculates out to approximately a 9.15:1 compression ratio. Add to that, the heads and block were "decked" .005 each, and custom Cometic head gaskets were cut and installed. I would extimate my compression ratio as being in the neighborhood of 9.2:1.

As you know, in order to dip down into 8.5:1 compression, one would have to use a 17-18cc dished piston, yes? Moreover, when I couldn't answer your questions, I put you on the phone with Randy, so he could, and later, you expressed disagreement with his piston to cylnder wall clearance. Thus, you may have suggested that I made a mistake, because you would not have followed his philosophy, or, his specs, and I may have shook my head one way or another to acknowledge that I am listening. However, I bought the piston I wanted, and I got the compression I asked for.

I like to drive my MM OTR, and I'm always faced with octane issues. Lowering the compression is one way of addressing octane, and you're dead wrong again. One can tune and boost to recover lost power from lowered compression, yet you say this is "un-re-attainable." Indeed. If it's a Trilogy/Eaton Roots blower, you're 100 percent correct.

I followed Randy's philosophy, and today my gains are better than ever, 478 RWHP/434 RWTQ, and I'm tuning again this week because of a MAF relocation. This should put me over 500 RWHP and 450 RWTQ, we'll see?

You're correct to believe dyno numbers are for sigs, but my track performance is likewise improving. Best this season has been 12.4x on borrowed drag radials, and 12.6x on street tires with 200 pounds of equipment in the trunk. My second 1/8 mile MPH is also climbing very well. Average of 19 passes this season, is 25 MPH gain, while the average of the top ten in our timeslip database is 22 MPH. This too, will be subject to even more improvement, but I am presently traction challenged, and I'm enjoying the slow growth.

Two. Yes, the S trim was maxed out. Lower compression affected the volumetric efficiency, and both front and rear oil seals blew out as well. So, off to Vortech, and a T-Trim upgrade. Before the upgrade, you were the last to tune my MM and you delivered 412 RWHP and 378 RWTQ with a 3.12 pulley installed, and this wasn't satisfactory to me. However, this is one benefit/blessing of a centrifugal blower. You can make these adjustments in boost via a pulley change, until you max out the blower, then you can upgrade the blower, and start fresh at the bottom of the next scale. After my T-Trim upgrade, 428 RWHP 394 RWTQ untuned. Shortly thereafter, JerryVanDerlinde tuned the car to my present performance.

Sadly, you cannot do this with a Trilogy/Eaton 112, because it's aready maxed out. Too small a pulley will be problematic, and you must resort to nitrous to stay on the leading edge of competition. This is exactly why you should not mess with the stock 9.8:1 compression on a Marauder/Trilogy build, because you will not recover the lost volumetric efficiency no matter what you do.

This is a performance "wall" for the Eaton 112 as it is installed on a Marauder. Oh, you can fiddle with more tricks to glean more power the same way any of us can, but the Trilogy blower is maxed out with the 2.93 pulley, am I correct? There isn't such a wall with Vortech/ProCharger centrifugal blowers. Instead of "one size fits all", it more like all sizes fit one.

Zack can discuss his disappointments, that's not my concern. I didn't get the power I reasonably expected from your tuning, even after dropping down two pulley sizes from 3.48 to 3.12. The transmission setup proved to be difficult as well, considering how I drive my MM. As Zack and I discussed our results, we agreed that we learned something from the adventure, and we moved on quietly. Discussing our experience here would be the first swing in another round of internet boxing, another endless war of opinions and insults, which I am sure will erupt now anyway.

We kept quiet and we were cool with it all, until someone thought you deserved the credit for Zack's track performance. And now, you start with the name calling. Tell you what, Lidio, when you arrive at Joliet, I'll introduce you to Jerry VanDerlinde, who's building and maintaining Sutton Ford's "505" Mustang. I think it ran 10.1xs at Norwalk. When you're done discussing tuning philosophy, I'll introduce you to Randy Crowley, who will be chasing high nines at this event, along side Jerry. After you have met them, you're free to call them anything you wish, but I highly doubt you will want to dis them.

I'm sure I'll be tending to wounds here in just a short while, but remember, you are the first with the disparaging remarks, and for folks you never met too. There's world full of great engine builders out here and very skilled tuners are rising to the challenge everyday. I probably wouldn't have typed one word of this post had you not attacked Randy Crowley, because most of it is just opinion and preferrence. Well, there are a few facts, hope you can remember them this time. (Shrug) Oh well, here we go again...

Hey Bradley, you opened this thread looking for some action, did you get enough yet?

[Hack Goby]

:popcorn: ............................

[Dennis Reinhart]

:beer: ----------------------:bows:

[Bradley G]

As I said eariler, "Stay tuned it going to be a great weekend of racing!" :coolman: :rasta:

[MikesMerc]

One can tune and boost to recover lost power from lowered compression, yet you say this is "un-re-attainable." Indeed. If it's a Trilogy/Eaton Roots blower, you're 100 percent correct.

I followed Randy's philosophy, and today my gains are better than ever, 478 RWHP/434 RWTQ

Sadly, you cannot do this with a Trilogy/Eaton 112, because it's aready maxed out.

This is a performance "wall" for the Eaton 112 as it is installed on a Marauder.



With all due respect Mac (to you and your builder), 478/434, although pretty good, just ain't all that great considering you have a new lower end and an upgrade to a T-Trim. Even with the Trilogy nearing its max PSI, there are still a bunch of Trilogy guys safely making more power than you (without NOS). And we're talking peak numbers here were the centrifugal motors have the advantage. The same group of Trilogy guys are seeing 450+ rwtq by 3000rpm...can you say the same? In fact, what is your rwtq at 3000rpm? Care to share your dyno sheet?

Heck, all NOS does for Lidio and Jerry is take them from 500+ rwhp into the 600+ range. LOL...have fun doing that with your T Trim :)

Lidio can answer his own questions as he sees fit, but I know what he is talking about. Go to SVT forums and ask those guys about dropping compression of the 4.6 motors. A few will have done it. Many will tell you to beware....especially on a street car. Dropping compression in the 4.6 cammer isn't like it was on the old pushrod motors and those who do it tend to be the strip guys running mondo blowers with 25+ PSI. The low and mid range TQ you loose by lowering compression for a street running 4.6 mod motor isn't gonna come back with a high rpm centrifugal blower either. This is a bad thing on a heavy street car. There may indeed be those who disagree with this, but Lidio certainly is not alone in beleiving that you shouldn't drop the compression on a street going 4.6 DOHC motor.

I'm honestly glad you got just what you wanted in a motor build Mac. And I mean no disrespect, but if your gonna go off on Lidio and tout your build as some kind of example that he was wrong in critiquing your build (and/or builder), then you need to strengthen your arguement first and get your power numbers up. What Lidio is saying about compression can be verified all over the net. perhaps your results may indeed be an example of that.

[Hack Goby]

Something bothers me here.If I were to go off on a paying vendor like you did I would most likely get put in exile and then another paying vendor toasts your rant and all this is alright?I think the hand if fate will shortly be coming down on this thread. :down:

[Dennis Reinhart]

Mac is not a drag strip daily driver, I have drove his car, the cars 60' sucked when I drove the car, at Barry's I was smoking the tires on Launch, once he gets the car below a 2.0 on launch his ET is going to drop, Mac does not run any nitrous, neither do I on my Mark 8 it runs 11.3 at 118 MPH I guess I am the worlds fastest Mark 8, I really don't care because I love the car, and I have plans for my Marauder as well.

Let me ask one simple question, what is the standard boost level and what is the average RWHP of a Trilogy car, with out any other further modifications, no Nitrous no exhaust. From what I have seen its around 360 to 380 RWHP.

I remember over a year ago when Kieth Sculley's car was here, and I ran the low ET in his car, on my Mustang Cobra R's members here yelled FOUL.

What Mac wrote as far as engine building I agree with completely, if you want to make good safe power on pump gas drop the compression and turn the boost up, this is what I call a daily driver, the power is there all the time no worrying about nitrous or other issues, just get in the car turn the key and go with it.

Now lets not turn this into another flame thread, I respect every ones opinion. Lets have a good Sunday evening. I am headed to the pool.:beer:

[MikesMerc]

Let me ask one simple question, what is the standard boost level and what is the average RWHP of a Trilogy car, with out any other further modifications, no Nitrous no exhaust. From what I have seen its around 360 to 380 RWHP.

375 to 385 rwtq at 9 to 9.5 psi.


if you want to make good safe power on pump gas drop the compression and turn the boost up, this is what I call a daily driver, the power is there all the time

Except in the low to mid range. For a lot of folks that's the problem with dropping the compression on a street car. Additionally, centrifugal blowers make lackluster boost at lower rpms which hinders the blower ability to help much in the low and mid range. Not to mention that you wouldn't want to drive around at WOT at low rpms all the time to have whatever boost is available (if any) to make up for lost compression. Like I said, lower compression high boost motors are nice for strip cars where the mushy low end can be overlooked or crutched with big gears and a high stall.

Now, if you have any dyno sheets to contridict this, by all means show us. I'd like to see the rwtq numbers from an lowered compression 4.6 mod motor street car in the 2800 to 4500 rpm range.


no worrying about nitrous or other issues, just get in the car turn the key and go with it.

It's not a mandatory choice.....NOS or lower compression. You can do neither and do just fine that way. NOS is only an added bonus if you want to take things to the 600hp+ range.


Now lets not turn this into another flame thread, I respect every ones opinion Says the guy who toasted another person's flaming post :nono: C'mon now Dennis ;)

[MI2QWK4U]

You should have stuck to your plan, everything was cool with me until the name calling. When you characterize Randy Crowley as "old school" and "unknowledgeable" you are dead wrong, and you're being a jerk about it.

Mac, I took what Lidio said as a the philosophy or way of thinking as being old school, not as a direct attack on anyone. There are some people out there that think that older ways of thinking are better than modern electronic ways of doing things. There are some old school guys out there that swear by methods and schools of thought that are clearly outdated and dont make use of modern technology. I learned SO much from Lidio about how and what we can do to a car simply by accessing and programming the computer!


I followed Randy's philosophy, and today my gains are better than ever, 478 RWHP/434 RWTQ, and I'm tuning again this week because of a MAF relocation. This should put me over 500 RWHP and 450 RWTQ, we'll see?

Those are great Numbers Mac, But like yourself, I dont put much thought into peak numbers. To impress me, show me the power and torque curve, show me where and when the car shines. My torque curve isnt a curve at all, at 2800 RPM my torque rockets to over 400 ft/lbs, then levels off at 480 ft/lbs at 3300 RPM, where it stays level and begins to fall off at redline, still at 420 ft/lbs of torque. I would rather look at your dyno sheet and formulate my own observations than argue about which is best.


You're correct to believe dyno numbers are for sigs, but my track performance is likewise improving. Best this season has been 12.4x on borrowed drag radials, and 12.6x on street tires with 200 pounds of equipment in the trunk. My second 1/8 mile MPH is also climbing very well. Average of 19 passes this season, is 25 MPH gain, while the average of the top ten in our timeslip database is 22 MPH. This too, will be subject to even more improvement, but I am presently traction challenged, and I'm enjoying the slow growth.

I too am traction challanged, it has been a learning experience figuring out how to manage so much power in a car like ours. This year, since we are sharing numbers, I have driven my car to 12.0's in 95* temps, with 60' times constantly improving. My car has been driven to its personal best time of 11.96 with a good driver. I expect my numbers to improve as you do.


After my T-Trim upgrade, 428 RWHP 394 RWTQ untuned. Shortly thereafter, JerryVanDerlinde tuned the car to my present performance.

I am still using my standard Eaton M-112 blower, no upgrades or replacement or modifications. I am still doing well with the setup and after it produced the 520 RWHP numbers, I had Lidio back it off to its current conservative tunned numbers of 512/480.


Sadly, you cannot do this with a Trilogy/Eaton 112, because it's aready maxed out. Too small a pulley will be problematic, and you must resort to nitrous to stay on the leading edge of competition.

This is a performance "wall" for the Eaton 112 as it is installed on a Marauder. Oh, you can fiddle with more tricks to glean more power the same way any of us can, but the Trilogy blower is maxed out with the 2.93 pulley, am I correct?

Well, now we come to the comments I really have a problem with. No Mac, you are NOT correct, the Eaton is NOT maxed out. Not Quite sure where that came from. I currently am using a 2.8 pully, with thoughts of trying a 2.6 pully. So if I am at 520 RWHP with the 2.8, its safe to say that number will be much higher with the 2.6 pully. I didnt have to replace my blower to get the numbers I have achieved. I have had my blower longer than just about everyone on this board, in that time I have tried new setups, tweaked the tune, but it always comes back to the setup is good as it is, and only needs one or two cheap mods to rocket the car into the very low 12.'s. Its funny, to this day, the only major mods my Marauder has address air and fuel delivery, and thats it. Better exhaust with headers and cleaning up the air intake with the better MAF, combined with a fuel pump upgrade. I wont be resorting to nitrous to stay on the leading edge of compitition, I dont need to, I have plenty. I think it is safe to say that being in the top 5 of fastest Marauders qualifies me as being on the leading edge of compitition. I will acknowelege that the supercharged with nitrous Marauders are in a separate class from the rest of us. I prefer to do it with tweaks, experimentation, and working with others to get the best results. I enjoy some good old fashioned compitition amongst enthusiests, so bring anything you got, with a blower and untouched engine, leave the nitrous crap at home, and lets see what happens. I will tell you this much, in that class of cars you have Deebar, Mike Z, myself, and Zach.
I wish we could get past bashing on each other. I love my car, its running the best it ever has, and she holds her own better than I have seen in the past. So lets stop verbally attacking each other and save if for the track. You want to run my "maxed out Trilogy Eaton" Mac? I think you will have more than you can handle. Win or loose, it is a learning experience like Mac said, its how we get the results we strive for.

[Lidio]

One quick one for you guys or sarg. It seems that your using the fact that I NOS my MM on top of the Trilogy as some sort of a cop-out or I aint got enough with just boost, etc....
Let me remind you all that my MM with out the NOS, in good weather conditions runs 11.80's!! and I think it did 11.70 once, but I'd have to dig through the trunk into the shoe-box full of ET slip's.... but plenty of 11.80's for sure. This wont keep me at the very top of the TimeSlips forum but not bad for only 4.10's, Nitto's and the Trilogy making 13.5psi all of last year. Pretty short list of mod's considering the weight of the MM vs my ET's even w/o NOS!!

No one has to remind me that the Eaton M-112 is maxed out when we get them into the 13-15psi range. No one knows it more then me, But I also know when to use the right blower for the right application, This is why I got on board so heavily with Jerry Barns and the MM's with his deal. The average guy donsnt need a blower that can some day support or have the capability to make 18 or 20psi. They need the right bower for their applicaiotn. For the MM’s the Eaton M-112 works great right out of the box from Trilogy and has plenty of room for more gains.

I've yet to see any other blower (and only the blower kit) for a MM drop a MM's ET's from stock mid to low 15's in the qtr mile to very, very low 13's if not a 12.90 like Jerry's number - 1 did with nothing else done to the car.
Eaton’s on a MM are not about the peak RWHP, its about its over all productivity (TQ curve) from right off idle and what it does to get the car moving with ease with stock torque converter and stock 3.55 gears.

I believe no other blower, NOS, or Turbo for the MM's can attest to this yet. (remember I’m talking totally stock except for the power adder as a kit).

I’m not sure if you guys catch any of this on my site, but I don’t dislike centrifugals in any way. My 05 GT has had a Vortech S-trim on if for about 8 weeks now and its running awesome. In this application it works great and it hauls azz. The Vortech on the 05 3-valve is making 10.5psi we found, not 9psi as the kit was rated. This could be because we’ve played with the variable cam timing a bit and got it to pull higher rpms and thus spin the S-trim harder causing it to make more boost. Either way with only the out-of-the-box Vortech, 3.73’s and a 3400 stall its gone 12.0’s now at 3750lbs with me in it. This is on the 20” non drag radial tires and totally stock exhaust and no suspension parts changed to enhance traction, only to lower it about 1.5”.



Thanks

[Mike M]

I'm not getting involved in this discussion, but I want to know how did you go 12.6 with street tires??? I am getting a ProCharger installed as I type this and I know traction will be a problem. What street tires did you use and what size and did you have the rims widened?
I just moved to AZ and they only have 91 octane out here...YUCK!!!!
Luckily I live about 10 miles from a dragstrip (Speed World I think) and I will keep it on a steady diet of 100 octane ONLY!!!!! A full tank will last me a couple moths easily.
Thanks Mike

[MI2QWK4U]

I'm not getting involved in this discussion, but I want to know how did you go 12.6 with street tires??? I am getting a ProCharger installed as I type this and I know traction will be a problem. What street tires did you use and what size and did you have the rims widened?
I just moved to AZ and they only have 91 octane out here...YUCK!!!!
Luckily I live about 10 miles from a dragstrip (Speed World I think) and I will keep it on a steady diet of 100 octane ONLY!!!!! A full tank will last me a couple moths easily.
Thanks Mike


Mike,
One time I took Trilogy #1 to Milan to race it for test and tune, only problem was his Nittos werent ready! I was dissapointed, but what the heck. Bigslim was there to witness the fun! My first run was 16 seconds! Spun the tires half the way down the track. But, as I learned to play with the launch, after a few runs, I layed down at smoking 12.4, on stock tires! I about fell out of the car when Darryl told me! Its all about your launch, 60', and how much power you have to propell the car to that kind of time with a soft launch.
Dave

[Smokie]

I'm not getting involved in this discussion, but I want to know how did you go 12.6 with street tires??? I am getting a ProCharger installed as I type this and I know traction will be a problem. What street tires did you use and what size and did you have the rims widened?
I just moved to AZ and they only have 91 octane out here...YUCK!!!!
Luckily I live about 10 miles from a dragstrip (Speed World I think) and I will keep it on a steady diet of 100 octane ONLY!!!!! A full tank will last me a couple moths easily.
Thanks MikeGo to Timeslips and look at Carfixer's entry. Stock MM. + Nitrous on stock crappy tires. Look at the 60' time. Cool eh?

[MikesMerc]

Go to Timeslips and look at Carfixer's entry. Stock MM. + Nitrous on stock crappy tires. Look at the 60' time. Cool eh?

Wow...that is damn good for stock rubber:up:

[Mike M]

With the ProCharger and my 4:10s and good fuel what tires do you guys recomend on stock width rims? I see Nittos talked about alot but what size Nittos and which model of Nittos?
Mike

[Jerry Barnes]

O.K.,

Enough is enough! I am usually pretty calm about these threads, but I am getting a little tired of the same bull***** from some people that don't know their throttle body from their pud!!!

First - If we want to compare apples to apples then let's keep the boost levels the same on the comparison cars. NO NITROUS! If everyone running a Vortech wants to run at 20psi, then I will tell you that I will be testing some new superchargers from Eaton which will easily let me attain whatever boost numbers you want to run with a centrifical. So if you want to compare two 20psi cars, I am all for it!! NO NITROUS. And I am tired of dyno numbers. Bring your sorry butts to the track and put your money where your mouth is!!!!!!!!

Second - You make a high compression motor, a low compression motor to achieve driveability, there is something seriously wrong with your car, your motor and your head! We don't run Trilogy cars up to 6,000rpm at every light to get good driveability from a stop!!! Are you out of your mind???

Third - I think Zack has done some great things with his car! It's a different approach then our approach, but it was his choice and it does not seem to be a bad one, just different. I have never complained about Vortech or ProCharger, they are good products.

Forth - If you are telling me that using good technology and very bright engineers to design, engineer and build our kits is wrong, ask 95 satisfied customers who don't want to spend every spare minute fixing a poorly design product, just to drive the kids to school!!!! That's crap!!!!!

Fifth - My tuner, my friend and my fellow MM owner(MR. Lidio to you) is one of the best in the business. He always looks out for his customers and will do whatever it takes to preserve a customers car without unnecessry expense to the customer. It's called CARING FOR THE CUSTOMER. Need I remind you of the Control Arm fiasco????? So if you want to pick on me, my staff(all the highly educated professionals) or our product, fine!!!! Just don't talk about my friend and tuner, Dr. Lidio. As I recall you brought Lidio a piece of crap on wheels and he could not retune the turd!!!!! So he tuned it to prevent you from hurting yourself and this is the thanks he gets?? He should have given you 50 more HP then when you brought it and when it blew up you would have whined like a baby and diss'd his reputation. Which by the way is very good, unlike others that can't find their butts with both hands and a flashlight!!! And you picked the internals for the engine rebuild yourself, that tells me a lot. Ever think of mastering a new hobby????? Like space craft building!

Sixth - 99% of the people on this site are great! Why don't the uneducated go somewhere else and this site will be perfect!!!!!

Seventh - Show me your timeslip, I don't give a crap about a dyno sheet! And I am waiting for everyone to come to the track!!!!! I will run anyone anytime. No Nitrous, No wheels, no shorts! By the way, if we are going to wear shorts, you have to wear a 34" waist. We must keep everything equal!

Sincerely,

Jerry, the calm one!

[sailsmen]

I have done 12.8 on a wet track, as in it was raining a few minutes before, by doing a 1/3 throttle launch and feathering the throttle for the 330' on KDW2's.

[sailsmen]

Looking at the time slips I don't see that much of a difference in the times between the various S/C systems. In many cases the differences can easily be made up by a good vs average driver.

[Zack]

Hey everyone, read all the comments here.
These are your hosts for Marauderville III.

[MI2QWK4U]

Hey everyone, read all the comments here.
These are your hosts for Marauderville III.

Well Zack,
I am the host and coordinator for MVIII. This will be the best orginized, most attended, and hopefully most well rounded Marauderville...ever. If I recall, you havent registered yet. These other folks you refer to as "posters" are attending just like everyone else. Dont try to de-rail a good event because you dont agree with people that have as much right to voice thier opinion to correct bad information as you do. Hopefully people dont buy into your bitter 2 line zinger posts. You are as welcome as any other Marauder owner, in fact I was hoping you would join us so we could all have a good time. There is still a spot left.....

[CJ@DynoProInc]

Hey guys-
Always good to see some spirited talk among the enthusiasts. :beer:

As a shop/dyno owner, I can tell you that peak Dyno numbers do not mean a whole lot to me. I really like to see A/F, and the power "under the graph".
Peak numbers are great fun for shootouts and sigs.
I cannot tell you how many cars I have seen that are Dyno Queen's (great peak #'s) but cannot run a decent time at the track. On the other end, I've seen many o-cars with avg. #'s run like a bat outta' hell. Sure does make for good conversation seeing we are ALL looking for the same thing, lower ET's! :banana2:
You can count me in for the Joliet event. It will be great to see everyone.
That is if they let me and my "slow" WS.6 in the place!

CJ@ DynoPro :cool:

[Hack Goby]

Aug 19 they will be 35 Marauders at Milan Dragway.Not all of the fastest cars will be there but alot will.Procharger,Vortec,and Trilogy will all have at least one car in the event. :burnout:
Yep,We are the hosts.Whats wrong with my comment?Your not comming so why are your shorts in a bunch.

[Zack]

Yep,We are the hosts.Whats wrong with my comment?Your not comming so why are your shorts in a bunch.

Hack and Slim are excluded, my bad. :cool:

[Hack Goby]

Well Zack,
I am the host and coordinator for MVIII. This will be the best orginized, most attended, and hopefully most well rounded Marauderville...ever. If I recall, you havent registered yet. These other folks you refer to as "posters" are attending just like everyone else. Dont try to de-rail a good event because you dont agree with people that have as much right to voice thier opinion to correct bad information as you do. Hopefully people dont buy into your bitter 2 line zinger posts. You are as welcome as any other Marauder owner, in fact I was hoping you would join us so we could all have a good time. There is still a spot left.....
Like Dave said,You and Sarge are still invited to come to Milan and race.Just sign up. :D

[Hack Goby]

Bring Big Joe P with ya.

[Smokie]

I thought this was going to get ugly....you gentleman showed a lot of class, took it to the edge and pulled back.Once again I am wrong.....good people tearing at each other with the keyboard.....:shake:

[Rider90]

Once again I am wrong.....good people tearing at each other with the keyboard.....:shake:

Agreed. Sorely disapointed in the attitudes expressed here. Sad to see that this Joliet event will no longer be a group of Marauder owners sharing a good time, but rather a pissing match where all those racing need a 34 inch waist. I don't know about you guys, but to the ones not pissing on the parade, how about cleaning your car up and sharing some stories? That is where you will find me.

[sailsmen]

...but rather a pissing match where all those racing need a 34 inch waist. ...

What does a 34" waist mean?

[TooManyFords]

I vaguely remember 34"... Back when I first got married! If anyone finds it, tell it to get its ass home!


Thanks

John

[maraudernkc]

Our Procharger Marauders are making 450RWHP at 11 to 1 A/F Ratio. That is a very safe A/F ratio.That is with 9PSI in the heat.

We have run 12.90 at 109 with no converter and no slicks. The car did have gears and Kooks. We were picking up 30 MPH in the back 1/8.

:popcorn:

[sailsmen]

What does a 34" waist mean?

I am just a dumb Southern Boy, I really don't understand it? :confused:

[Rider90]

I am just a dumb Southern Boy, I really don't understand it? :confused:

It is referring to the size of the driver's pants, width-wise. Said by Jerry in his post.

[Jerry Barnes]

Smokie,

You are right. I usually don't lose my cool. Lidio does a great job and that is why people bring him their cars from all over the United States and Canada to him. And I will ALWAYS stand by people that have stood by me. Good friends, professional people!!!! Please take a look at the latest Mustang 5.0 magazine, yes that is Lidio's Mustang with a Vortech on it. These magazines don't put bums in their publications, they put experienced professionals that have great track records. And Lidio is not a Trilogy promoter, he is open minded and tries everything that is good for his CUSTOMERS. BRAVO, Lidio!!

So, I will pause and apologize to everyone for my off color comments. But, I will not waiver from my support for Lidio. He is a first class professional!

Next, I will be the biggest supporter of MarauderVille III and help everyone coming to Michigan for our National Event. No hard feelings! But, I also want to pick on a few people regarding hosting an event. I recently drove all the way to Chicago to support the first ChiTown Dream Cruise. I worked all day selling tickets and shirts and hats and posters. It was great fun and I definately will do it every year to help out my good friends (Jerry Robbin & Co. at the IMOA) who put on a great event!! I did not see any other MM's from Chicago? So much for hosting events in your own back yard. Interesting?

And then there is my good friend Bradley G. in Chicago. If I can make it for his Dyno Day on August 7th, I will be there. He is good people and I think he will be very successful in the Chicago area! I will jump in Trilogy #2 and cruise by. Hey Brad, how about a $300 voucher off a Trilogy Supercharger Kit for a raffle winner? I can't wait to have more Trilogy Customers in Chicago, that place needs a little more competition! I love stirring the pot(ha ha ha).

And for everyone else, Dave, Mike(s), Slim, Paul, John, etc., etc. have done a fantastic job on MarauderVille III. Come to Michigan and see what great hospitality these folks are going to give everyone, you won't be sorry!!!

A little spirited debate is good once and a while, right Zack and Mac? But, let's not bore everyone on the web site, let's SHOW them on the track.

Sincerely,

Jerry

[Mike M]

I'm not bored....this is the best bunch of posting I've seen in a long time.
Mike

[Tallboy]

A little spirited debate is good once and a while, right Zack and Mac? But, let's not bore everyone on the web site, let's SHOW them on the track.

Sincerely,

JerryI'm really starting to worry about Jerry. He's ryhming again...:lol:

[Dennis Reinhart]

Our Procharger Marauders are making 450RWHP at 11 to 1 A/F Ratio. That is a very safe A/F ratio.That is with 9PSI in the heat.

We have run 12.90 at 109 with no converter and no slicks. The car did have gears and Kooks. We were picking up 30 MPH in the back 1/8.

:popcorn:I do not think any one asked for Procharger numbers Gregg, and any of the four kits sold can and have made over 440 RWHP,

[stevengerard]

Wow, I missed thousands of threads and this one, what the heck happened, Bradley works at DynoPro now?
Jerry busts loose with a rant? what took you so long :)
I missed him in Chicago - bummer ironically I was in Michigan that weekend.
Have to read some of these other threads to see what's going on that weekend, with everyone coming in, it would be great to meet up with you all

Joliet can be as much as a 2 hour drive from downtown, typically one, but from Michigan you wouldn't drive into the city to get there anyway so it would be shorter - probably 1 - 1.5 from the Indiana boarder

[HwyCruiser]

Wow, just wow. Everyone's come out of the woodwork on this beauty. WTG Bradley! :D

Zack, you missed one so allow me:


Need I remind you of the Control Arm fiasco?????
Ah, fond memories...

[SergntMac]

It's impossible to address all the comments posted here, and most don't deserve a reply anyway. Nonetheless, a few notes to correct the record.

The issue at hand (now) is my experience with Lidio as a tuner, and now as a gentleman racer. Zack and I did not benefit from his talent as we had hoped late last year, and we decided not to make a big deal out of it, but move on, better things ahead.

This proved to be true with the emergence of a great SCT tuner, who was able to deliver the tune and the power we were seeking. Our disappointment was kept quiet, not a word mentioned until it spilled out here.

Hack, I didn't attack Lidio, I responded to his insult. As a paying customer, I was "invited" if you will, to respond to his untruthful remarks. Once it did come out, rather than address it like a gentleman, I'm supposed to endure Lidio's insult and unnecessary commentary about two good friends he has never met? I think not. If any moderator has an issue with the way I've handled this, they know what to do about it. However, I'm not going to stand still when insulted, nor, will I fail to come to the aid of friends, even though they don't know they have been wronged.

Funny how many of y'all missed that, and continue to think of professionals you know nothing about, as "old school." Come on to Joliet, see these two gentlemen racers do their thing with their own '05 Mustangs running in NMRA championships.

Fact...The Marauder engine has a 9.8:1 compression ratio, which doesn't do well with Chicago gas and boost. I dropped the compression ratio to 9.2:1 for better combustion and more efficiency, and I increased the boost for more power on the track. Basic and simple rationale for change, I can drive (and race) my Marauder anywhere in the country. BTW, I've been down the track 19 times this season, and I'm making a lot of decent progress with this "old school" technology. For sure, I'm not done yet.

Y'all speak of dyno curves and where your power is delivered. That's old school hogwash. The evidence is my 60 foot times and no hook, not even on a brand new set of BFG drag radials. Seems to me any part-time half azzed racer can figure it out, there's plenty of power at the tree, I just can't get it to the ground...Yet. But, don't mention that either, don't stick to the facts. Just go on dissing folks, name calling and post your rants, and in a very unprofessional manner. Jerry, your rant speaks in volume, what a decent guy you have turned out to be, eh?

I didn't start this argument, Lidio did. And I'm disappointed that he can't do the right thing once the truth came out.

Control arm fiasco? Indeed. 40 some sets on the pavement, all we made sold, with a few more inquires about the second run. No complaints registered, no breakage reported, no lack of performance complained of. Zero, zip, zilch, nada, none...Jerry, WTF are you talking about? Nevermind, it's times like these that truth falls to the wayside.

See y'all in Joliet.

[Bradley G]

Hey JD a new Sig pic! Kool! :D Can you come to Joliet and race your Procharger'd Beast Marauder?:banana2:

Bradley @ DynoPros


Wow, just wow. Everyone's come out of the woodwork on this beauty. WTG Bradley! :D

Zack, you missed one so allow me:


Ah, fond memories...

[MikesMerc]

Y'all speak of dyno curves and where your power is delivered. That's old school hogwash.

LOL...and this is what we call an old school "dodge the question" :lol:

Dyno sheets may not be the end all in track performance, but they do provide objective measurement of power production. Just because you cannot pick the right tires and launch your car well doesn't mean the car has good low end. A poor 60 foot time is not evidence of low end power....its evidence of poor traction, poor track prep, and perhaps poor driving. Dyno sheets have nothing to do with traction....they display data about power production.

So I take it you're not up for the challenge and are gonna pass on posting your dyno sheet? I guess we can only conclude that your low and mid range power isn't what you want us to see. I'm not surprised.

All this sounds to me like Lidio had a very valid point about lost power on the low end from the compression drop and he touched a nerve when he brought it up.

See you at the track:)

[Bradley G]

Wow I get up this AM and the thread doubles in posts!

I started this thread, to give Kudos, to The accomplishments, of Jerry Barnes and his falulous staff!
And even More importantly, to Give the Windy city And all MM.net members a heads up, on a local event, that will feature "the Fastest Marauder on the Planet"
If you look at the Headline it starts with "Racers Allert".
Who in our forum wants to travel out this distance to witness eighteen second minivans and mah hoop entries?
This is about racing! who can go 1320 feet in the shortest ammount of time!even if it is by .00?
If Jerry's car #1 gets knocked off his perch, I will congradulate them, just like I did when Jerry laid down the new record @ Norwalk last week.It's all about Respect, which I have for, each and everone here.
I love to tease, I hold no bars, anyones game!

Just think back the first time you drove the Marauder, or the first time you saw another driving by.
How about the first cosmetic/performance Mod? Remember how you felt?
First wax?:D First event ? First dragrace?
This is a 'feel good' place, What are you contributing?
I feel so greatful, to have made relationships, this car has motivated me to make.
Thank you for the replies, Again I learned a ton!

Hey JD a new Sig pic! Kool! :D Can you come to Joliet and race your Procharger'd Beast Marauder?:banana2:
Yes! Jerry ! I'll take you up on your generous offer on the donation;$300.00 voucher for a Trilogy Kit!
When I win it, can I use it on my kit?:D Kidding of course! Thanks all!
Bradley G @ DynoPros

Bradley @ DynoPros

[TopCat]

Lidio said you'd lose low-end torque. And, he's absolutely correct. Why did no-one address this? Because when you drop compression on modular 4 cammer, you lose a lot of low-end torque. Indisputable fact. Bolting a centrifical on said engine is a waste of time if your trying to re-gain this lost low-end torque. you can turn the boost up all you want, you'll never get that low-end torque back. The old school logic does not apply here, this is not your old 302 or 351.

[TooManyFords]

Lidio said you'd lose low-end torque. And, he's absolutely correct. Why did no-one address this? Because when you drop compression on modular 4 cammer, you lose a lot of low-end torque. Indisputable fact. Bolting a centrifical on said engine is a waste of time if your trying to re-gain this lost low-end torque. you can turn the boost up all you want, you'll never get that low-end torque back. The old school logic does not apply here, this is not your old 302 or 351.
Boy, no offense, but these 4.6's operate on EXACTLY the same principals that our old 302 and 351's do! Everything you can do to that old 351 (M in my case!) works the same way on the 4.6. The computer on my 351M is a Mallory Unilite and a vaccuum hose, but that's as good as it gets. If I lower the compression, I can make up the torque with cams and timing or with positive pressure. No different than what we can do to our 4.6.

This whole "old school" term is just "getting old" and not used correctly. There's more to life than running at [x]psi pressure all the time. Nobody cares! Mac did what he wanted and I guarantee he's going to be happy with his decisions! He did the math, he can burn the gas he needs to and he can take it where the gas sucks and still drive it! See my other thread about compression to understand that this is not "old school anything". It's about doing the math and making it operate under YOUR conditions, not someone else's.

Cheers (I guess)

John

[SergntMac]

LOL...and this is what we call an old school "dodge the question"Yes, you have taught me well.

The old school logic does not apply here, this is not your old 302 or 351.The issue isn't the loss of torque, unless you want to avoid the real issue, or, cover it up by creating another issue to confuse and distract readers. Kind of like a "bait and switch" scheme, but we're selling disrespect, not televisions.

This isn't about my engine, or, my change in compression, which was minimal to say the least. Surely not a 10:1 to 8.5:1 reduction. Yes, I know my power curve has changed, but it's working out quite well for me.

This is about untruths, and a lack of respect. But, there is good in all evil deeds, and what's good here, is the learning of who's who.

[bigslim]

I usually don't participate in these "Wars" but i have one question to ask Mac.

Mac, I don't understand how you have had such a hard time getting your car to launch when there are other cars here making the same or more power than your car is and having no problem controlling their car? Are you trying to say that all of your power and torque is made in the lower RPMs? I think not with a centrifical blower.

This will probably be the only time that I ring in here. I am really tried of the whole thing. At this point I really don't care if I go to Joilet or not. I was doing my friend Jerry Barnes a favor by taking his vehicles to race but I don't know if want I to be around all the bickering.

[MERCMAN]

Please check the original title and post in this thread!! I fail to see what any of this has to do with the original post. If you folks want to argue about tuning, pistons, compression ratios, old school, new school, Lidio, Jerry, ZACK, Mac, the weather, or WHAT-EVER,, start a thread. This threadus-interruptus just ain't gonna cut it no more.

Here is a very politically incorrect saying for you argumentative BASTIDS

"Arguing over the internet is like being in the Special Olympics; even if you win, you're still retarded"

[2003 MIB]

This will probably be the only time that I ring in here. I am really tried of the whole thing. At this point I really don't care if I go to Joilet or not. I was doing my friend Jerry Barnes a favor by taking his vehicles to race but I don't know if want I to be around all the bickering.
I think you should go, D.- this is just Internet crap. The people I've personally met who've weighed in here are all reasonable and mature gentlemen who are much better speakers than posters. The one-dimensional nature of internet communication rarely translates to the same level when two guys have a face to face discussion. At the end of the day, we all love the cars and want to go fast. That common denominator melts away a lot when you are physically at the track.
As an aside, in person- you're a guy who smiles easily and is generally upbeat and happy. It's not much fun to bicker with someone who doesn't bite back- I doubt if you'd get pulled into anything at all- no sport in it, ya know?:D

[svtguy]

Please check the original title and post in this thread!! I fail to see what any of this has to do with the original post. If you folks want to argue about tuning, pistons, compression ratios, old school, new school, Lidio, Jerry, ZACK, Mac, the weather, or WHAT-EVER,, start a thread. This threadus-interruptus just ain't gonna cut it no more.

Here is a very politically incorrect saying for you argumentative BASTIDS

"Arguing over the internet is like being in the Special Olympics; even if you win, you're still retarded"Hey, here's an idea. Why don't all the special olympics gold medalists just agree to disagree, get to the track, and f****** race.
Come on, no backing out now. Especially if you've already got the necessary permission slips from everyone. This could be quite the track event of the summer.
And again, if I had to pick the single best day to go, is it safe to say that Saturday would be it. Unfortunately it would be hard to hang around all weekend to see what happens.

[prchrman]

used to go to the old Asheville airport with my brother to race his 65 2+2 mustang with a 289...fast little car for what it had...no clock no et no nothing just head to head racing...all the big three were represented there and all got beat at one time or another...it was funny how the old timers that knew what they were doing and raced every saturday got along and bashed each other when they won and lost and never got mad or in a fight...BUT...let some ninny who thought he was the best and he never raced come and get beat and he would invariably get all bent out of shape and want to argue, fight or just be a plain ole jerk...the arguing on here reminds me of that...most on here are not lifers on the drag strip but have got back into racing because of the MM...now they get offended at everything that does not suit their disposition or composition of their car...GET OVER IT...you do not know it all and you will get beat and so what any way...be happy with yours and shut up the serious name calling and such...some good hearted ribbing is always going to happen and if you don't like someone else being faster than you...build a better mouse trap...I have met several members on here and actually liked all of them even if we were somewhat different...its time to take a cool down lap and then go racing and shake hands whether you get beat or win...if you win gloat...if you lose be gracious and tip your hat to the winner...he deserves it...............willie

[2003 MIB]

...I have met several members on here and actually liked all of them even if we were somewhat different...
Ain't that the darn truth...How else would I have ever made friends with all these Cops, Lawyers, Trekkies and Canadians? :D

[Mike M]

Ain't that the darn truth...How else would I have ever made friends with all these Cops, Lawyers, Trekkies and Canadians? :D


Who is a trekkie?
TOS forever!!!!!

[MikesMerc]

Lidio said you'd lose low-end torque. And, he's absolutely correct. Why did no-one address this? Because when you drop compression on modular 4 cammer, you lose a lot of low-end torque. Indisputable fact. Bolting a centrifical on said engine is a waste of time if your trying to re-gain this lost low-end torque. you can turn the boost up all you want, you'll never get that low-end torque back. The old school logic does not apply here, this is not your old 302 or 351.

Well said. This is all Lidio was saying.



Boy, no offense, but these 4.6's operate on EXACTLY the same principals that our old 302 and 351's do! Everything you can do to that old 351 (M in my case!) works the same way on the 4.6.

I think what TopCat was trying to say is that the 4.6 doesn't have nearly the same low end torque numbers the old larger cubic inch pushrod motors did, and therefore, they have less to spare when considering a compression drop. Furthermore, the new 4.6 mod motors are more susceptible to significant power drop when compression is reduced. This has been a well known fact since the mod motors came out. Pick up any copy of Super Ford and 5.0 and read all about it...countless times in countless articles. Its all there for anyone to refer to :)

[Jerry Barnes]

Guys,

I agree that we need to calm down on the net.

I will be bringing my car and truck to Joillete. Sorry I can't stay for the weekend, but I will be there Thursday and Friday to get things set up. Please stop by, I will bring the cooler full of beer and pop. The invitation includes Zack and Mac also.

And Slim, you better be there. I am counting on you to help Mike out!!!

And yes I wll agree to disagree. Some of us have vastly different viewpoints on certain subjects. That will continue. In the future I will make a personal call or PM a person if I want to vent a little bit. I won't clutter the internet with my thoughts and comments!

Sincerely,

Jerry

[MikesMerc]

Guys,

I agree that we need to calm down on the net.



Yeah, you're right Jerry. I enjoy some heated debate every now and then to keep things lively and interesting. You can only talk about waxes and maruader sightings so much before things glaze over.

BUT, when things get too heated and folks start feeling personally attacked. Things have indeed gone too far. I think it is just too difficult to have spirited debate on the internet forums without things getting mis construed as being too personal. In fact, I've had the opportunity to discuss and debate the "4.6 mod motor compression" issue in person at least a few times in the past, and it never lead to the hard feelings I see happening here.

So, in that end, I'll hang it up here too.

Mac, I hope our exchange didn't ruin our opportunity to have a cold one together there in Chicagoland. I may be a bit overly spirited in my posting, but I never, never, meant it to be personal. And, in the end, we are only debating the fine points anyway as all of these cars are fast...not to mention they are all Marauders which we love so much. To that end, I'll buy the first round if you're still up for it. You'll be surprised when we meet in person....I guarantee it:)

[bigslim]

Guys,

I agree that we need to calm down on the net.

I will be bringing my car and truck to Joillete. Sorry I can't stay for the weekend, but I will be there Thursday and Friday to get things set up. Please stop by, I will bring the cooler full of beer and pop. The invitation includes Zack and Mac also.

And Slim, you better be there. I am counting on you to help Mike out!!!

And yes I wll agree to disagree. Some of us have vastly different viewpoints on certain subjects. That will continue. In the future I will make a personal call or PM a person if I want to vent a little bit. I won't clutter the internet with my thoughts and comments!

Sincerely,

Jerry
Ask me nicely!!! :rolleyes:

[RF Overlord]

Who is a trekkie?
TOS forever!!!!!Jean-Luc can kick Jim's ass up one side of the bridge and down the other...

[prchrman]

Jean-Luc can kick Jim's ass up one side of the bridge and down the other...

That's not logical...odds are 3,456,789 to 1 that could happen Captain of soy...willie

[RF Overlord]

That's not logical...odds are 3,456,789 to 1 that could happen Captain of soy...willieOK, Mr. Smarty-Pants...how many Tribbles were in the quadrotriticale?

[Mike M]

Jean-Luc can kick Jim's ass up one side of the bridge and down the other...

Now you are pissing me off!

[prchrman]

Number 1 go take a number 2...

[prchrman]

OK, Mr. Smarty-Pants...how many Tribbles were in the quadrotriticale?

I give up...how many? 4? willie

[Bradley G]

Speaking of Trekies:

My condolences to Scottie fans and Family!
I heard of this on my way home from Michigan, a couple hours ago
:alone:
He was my fav.
Bradley G

[RF Overlord]

Montgomery Scott: the greatest engineer in the universe...

RIP James Doohan... :cry: Ach, we'll miss ye, laddie...

[Bradley G]

On a lighter note:

#1 will travel at starship speed!:banana2:

[TooManyFords]

On a lighter note:

#1 will travel at star ship speed!:banana2:
Is that somewhere between WARP 9 and Ludicrous Speed?

:laugh:

Cheers

John

[MikesMerc]

Is that somewhere between WARP 9 and Ludicrous Speed?

:laugh:




If we pull out ALL the stops, we might just go "to plaid!!!"