Getting 4.10s installed

[Sully008]

Hello everyone,

Thanks to quick shipping by Wes, I'm getting the 4.10s and shiney hiney installed tomorrow. A local high performance shop that does Mustang work will be doing the install. I printed out the install instructions for the cover (Thanks, Mike Poore! :beer: ) and I've read just about ALL the previous threads on the gears, and here's what I've gathered:

1. Have them check for scarring on the axles and axle bearing surfaces. If there is any, BAD. Button it back up and head to the dealer.

2. Replace the pinion bearing.

3. Use 80w-90 for rear gear oil since I will be driving in extreme cold in the winter.

4. MUST use Ford Friction Modifier.

5. Use Loc-tite (Red) on the Ring gear bolts.

6. New wheel bearings are NOT necessary.

Is there anything else I need to make them aware of on our MMs? I remember reading somewhere about turning off the RAS, but I couldn't find the thread. Also, when reflashing the computer, I have Lidio's tune for 3.55s currently. Do I have to upload the factory settings first before changing to the 4.10 tune? Or can I go direct from the 3.55 to the 4.10?

TIA :burnout:

[RF Overlord]

2. Replace the pinion bearing. Yes, definitely.
3. Use 80w-90 for rear gear oil since I will be driving in extreme cold in the winter.The rear axle kit for the TSB includes 75W-140 synthetic and a new info tag. IIRC, Ford determined that part of the axle issue was due to "insufficient lubrication", so that may be why they require the use of that lube with the TSB, and I would think it would be even better than stock for extreme cold...
6. New wheel bearings are NOT necessary.Correct. (if you don't have the axle issue, of course)

[Sully008]

Yes, definitely.The rear axle kit for the TSB includes 75W-140 synthetic and a new info tag. IIRC, Ford determined that part of the axle issue was due to "insufficient lubrication", so that may be why they require the use of that lube with the TSB, and I would think it would be even better than stock for extreme cold...Correct. (if you don't have the axle issue, of course)

Okay, I'll see if they have 75W-140. It couldn't hurt even if I don't have the axle problem, right? If not, then I'll have them go with the 80W-90.

[MarauderMark]

1. Have them check for scarring on the axles and axle bearing surfaces. If there is any, BAD. Button it back up and head to the dealer.

I know did this once for someone and it was covered under warranty so maybe the mustang shop may be able to do this for you as well.Just tryin to :help: :D .

[SergntMac]

I didn't see it mentioned, so, I'll suggest it now.

I've seen too many rear ends set up by "pros" who didn't have the correct part at hand during the install, so, they used the next best part they do have in hand, and the rear end fails down the road, and far enough away from the install, that they can remain blameless in the cause for failure. Don't let this happen to you.

Moreover, the word (or concept of) "reuse" with respect to bearing and seals, is foolish. I haven't seen a seal or bearing yet, that once it's been disrupted by disassembly, didn't come to fail on it's own, and in a much shorter time frame than "normal life expectancy". Bearing and seals are not gaskets, disturb them and you should replace them, or, you will in a short time.

Some Mustangs have IRS, the Cobras I'm told, and not all the internals are interchangable with live axle setups. But, the parts look alike, and if you're going to a Mustang shop, they may not have a lot of live axle stuff in stock, and you'll get IRS spec parts. This isn't good, avoid it because you can.

Ford Racing has a kit that contains everything you need in a professional and correct live axle install/upgrade. Pinion and carrier shims, crush sleeve, pinion seal, pinion nut, pinion gear and carrier bearings, case hardened ring bolts (which you do not have from the factory, and should not reuse in a high performance build, ask me why I know), as well as a fresh axle shaft bearings, axle seals, and fresh cover gasket.

Everything your wrench will need, and all high performance too. Put this stuff in his hands. There should be no questions, and you'll not hear any excuses a year from now. The install kit is FRP #M-4210-C, page 127 of the '04 FRP catalogue, costs 120 bucks. This is cheap insurance. You should use everything in it, except for a few shims you may not need with your particular build spec.

The next insurance you didn't mention, is the Ford Racing stud kit. This kit reinforces the carrier bearing caps with Dana 60 caps, studs and bolts. It's designed to work with the Ford Racing girdle (i.e. "shiney hiney"), no matter who's name is engraved on the cover. Having one without the other, is no reinforcement at all. FRP # M-4034-A, page 126, 38 bucks. More cheap insurance.

Don't dick around with this, or, you'll be back here in 10K miles asking us what went wrong. Take it from someone who's been through this, measure twice, cut once. You can spend an extra 158 bucks now, or, another 1500 bucks to replace everything in 10K miles. Your choice, happy motoring.

[Sully008]

I didn't see it mentioned, so, I'll suggest it now.

I've seen too many rear ends set up by "pros" who didn't have the correct part at hand during the install, so, they used the next best part they do have in hand, and the rear end fails down the road, and far enough away from the install, that they can remain blameless in the cause for failure. Don't let this happen to you.

Moreover, the word (or concept of) "reuse" with respect to bearing and seals, is foolish. I haven't seen a seal or bearing yet, that once it's been disrupted by disassembly, didn't come to fail on it's own, and in a much shorter time frame than "normal life expectancy". Bearing and seals are not gaskets, disturb them and you should replace them, or, you will in a short time.

Some Mustangs have IRS, the Cobras I'm told, and not all the internals are interchangable with live axle setups. But, the parts look alike, and if you're going to a Mustang shop, they may not have a lot of live axle stuff in stock, and you'll get IRS spec parts. This isn't good, avoid it because you can.

Ford Racing has a kit that contains everything you need in a professional and correct live axle install/upgrade. Pinion and carrier shims, crush sleeve, pinion seal, pinion nut, pinion gear and carrier bearings, case hardened ring bolts (which you do not have from the factory, and should not reuse in a high performance build, ask me why I know), as well as a fresh axle shaft bearings, axle seals, and fresh cover gasket.

Everything your wrench will need, and all high performance too. Put this stuff in his hands. There should be no questions, and you'll not hear any excuses a year from now. The install kit is FRP #M-4210-C, page 127 of the '04 FRP catalogue, costs 120 bucks. This is cheap insurance. You should use everything in it, except for a few shims you may not need with your particular build spec.

The next insurance you didn't mention, is the Ford Racing stud kit. This kit reinforces the carrier bearing caps with Dana 60 caps, studs and bolts. It's designed to work with the Ford Racing girdle (i.e. "shiney hiney"), no matter who's name is engraved on the cover. Having one without the other, is no reinforcement at all. FRP # M-4034-A, page 126, 38 bucks. More cheap insurance.

Don't dick around with this, or, you'll be back here in 10K miles asking us what went wrong. Take it from someone who's been through this, measure twice, cut once. You can spend an extra 158 bucks now, or, another 1500 bucks to replace everything in 10K miles. Your choice, happy motoring.
Thank you for your honesty, SergntMac. I'm glad there's people like you to keep us newbies on the straight and narrow.:beer:

I did get the stud kit for the girdle, thanks to a lot of researching here. The majority of Mustangs around here are still live axle, I've only seen maybe 3 Cobras (IRS), and I'm not sure if they're real or not.

I will talk to the shop, and see if I can get the install kit before they work on the car.

[BillyGman]

Mike, allow me to shed some more light on this topic for you. MAC is trying to help you out here, and that's really cool of him to do that. I agree with him that for the most part, it's good to help your mechanic of choice be prepared by providing him with the things he will likely need for the job even though he might already have some of those things in his stock.


About Cobra rear end set-ups vs. Marauders, they're both the same except for the differentials on the Cobras being 31 spline, and Marauders being 28 spline. So they don't share the same differential carriers, but since they're both Ford 8.8" rears, they DO share the same ring & pinion gears, and therefore the same shims, seals, & pinion bearings as well as differential bearings too. Where they differ is when it comes to axle bearings/axle kits because 03/04 Cobras have half-shafts to the left and to the right of the rear end, (instead of solid axles like Marauders do) and a type of U-joint assembly on each end of the half-shafts.

So what's my point? The point is that if the place that you're bringing your car to, does ring & pinion work and rear-end work in general on Cobras, and Mustangs, then they most likely have bearings, shims and seals in stock for the Ford 8.8" rear, which are interchangeable for any Ford 8.8" rear. I've never heard of anyone re-using old oil seals, because as MAC stated, they get all bent out of shape upon removal, and because of that, they would leak like a siv(sp?). But I haven't any doubt that some mechanics will use old bearings. Which is perfectly fine as long as those bearings look good, and don't have excessive mileage on them (I'd say less than 30K). But that only goes for the axle bearings and differential bearings.

When it comes to the pinion bearings, some mechanics will use the old ones, but that is NOT a good practice!! The reason being, that the general procedure with Ford rear end ring & pinion changes, is to start with the old pinion shim, and then begin making your measuements for proper pinion depth, since it often turns out that with Ford gears, you need to use the same thickness shim for the new pinion gear that you had with the old pinion. Ford gears are like that.And there's absolutely nothing wrong with re-using the original shim since there isn't any waer involved with the shims.The only reason why new shim kits are sold is in the cases where different thicknesses are needed (which does happen sometimes even with ford gears).

But to get at the old pinion shim, the pinion bearing must be pressed off of the old pinion gear with a clamshell tool, which usually distorts the bearing cage atleast a little bit. And because of that distortion that takes place, it isn't good to use the old pinion bearing. The pinion has two bearings, and it's the large one that I'm speaking of since that's the one where the pinion shim is located under. And since a new large pinion bearing should be used, then the small pinion bearing should be new also even if it looks great. "Why" you say? Because the pre-load for new pinion bearings has to be set to 20-25 in/lbs, and the pre-load spec for used pinion bearings is only 10-15 in/lbs. which determines the pressure set on the crush collar and the bearings themselves. There's a difference because new bearings will loosen up after a thousand miles or so, while used bearings will not. So the pre-load on new bearings must be set tighter so that it will still be tight enough after they loosen up. And there's only one pinion nut which is used to set the pre-load on both the large and small pinion bearings. that's why I replace both of the bearings with new ones when I perform a gear swap on a Ford rear end.

So both the large and small pinion bearings on Ford rear ends when using Ford ring & pinion gears should be new. But the differential bearings and axle bearings don't need to be touched, and if they're good, probably shouldn't be touched either (trust me on this. I know:rolleyes: ). If those bearings have low mileage on them, and look good, then that's fine. There are times when new bearings are defective, and begin making noise several thousand miles down the road, and need to be replaced. So the rule of thumb is, if you have good bearings in there, then "if it ain't broke, don't fix it".....but that rule has to be thrown out the window for the pinion bearings for the reasons I've described.

As far as those ring & pinion gear installation kits, again, if this place does a lot of ring & pinion swaps, then they will liklely have the stuff they need, and most of it is interchangeable with any Ford 8.8" rear including Cobras. However, if ther's any question in your mind about that, and you want to be more "safe than sorry" like MAC has viewed this, I can fully understand the logic in that. However, unless your Marauder has over 30K on it's clock, it isn't neccessary to buy that kit with Ford part # M4210-C because that kit includes the axle bearings, and carrier bearings, which you most likely will NOT need. What I would do, is get kit #M4210-B since that doesn't contain the axle bearings and will be less expensive. It does include the carrier bearings which you likely will NOT need either, but the only less expensive kit that's in that cataloge is the M4210-A which doesn't include the pinion bearings either. And like I said, you definately will need those!!!!

But either way, I strongly agree with MAC about using a new pinion nut since they're oval shaped which gives a locking type feature when new, and about using a new set of ring gear bolts. And you should definately bring your mechanic a bottle of the RED loc-tite just incase he isn't in the habit of using threadlocker on the ring gear bolts (some aren't in that habit at all!!).Good luck my friend. ;)

[Sully008]

Thanks, Billy. The shop I'm going to does do a lot of high performance work here, especially on the Mustangs. My friend also works at the shop and will make sure that the job is done right. (He's a huge stickler for details):beer:

Does anyone know if I need them to turn off the RAS when installing the gears?

[BillyGman]

Does anyone know if I need them to turn off the RAS when installing the gears?Uhmm, sorry, but what's "RAS" mean? if you mean the air ride system in the back, yes. but you can simp[ly turn that off when you get there. it isn't like you cannot ever drive the car w/out it being on. So then when you go to pick the car up, just reach in the trunk and click it back on(if that's what you were talking about).

[Rider90]

Uhmm, sorry, but what's "RAS" mean? if you mean the air ride system in the back, yes. but you can simp[ly turn that off when you get there. it isn't like you cannot ever drive the car w/out it being on. So then when you go to pick the car up, just reach in the trunk and click it back on(if that's what you were talking about).

Anytime your rear tires are off the ground, you want the air suspension system off. So no Dukes of Hazzard moves, well, they have to be recorded then. I just click it off and leave the trunk open to remind me.

[Sully008]

Uhmm, sorry, but what's "RAS" mean? if you mean the air ride system in the back, yes. but you can simp[ly turn that off when you get there. it isn't like you cannot ever drive the car w/out it being on. So then when you go to pick the car up, just reach in the trunk and click it back on(if that's what you were talking about).

Yeah, that's what I was talking about. RAS - Rear air suspension. Sorry. Shoulda been more clear.

[Sully008]

Anytime your rear tires are off the ground, you want the air suspension system off. So no Dukes of Hazzard moves, well, they have to be recorded then. I just click it off and leave the trunk open to remind me.

Thanks Jason, I'll check and see what kinda lift they're using.

[GreekGod]

Thanks for the nice explanation of your experience and opinions on the Ford 8.8". When I had the 4.11/Detroit locker set up for my '79 F150 4x4 rear axle I had them use a solid (not crush) spacer for the pinion preload with the (big bearing) Daytona retainer so I could change the ujoint flange and/or oil seal without disturbing the preload setting. It seems if the same type of solid spacer could be used with the 8.8" it would simplify changing the ujoint flange and/or the oil seal should it start leaking or wear. It would make it a simple R&R procedure that would only require a torque wrench to torque the fresh pinion nut to spects. Whadaya think? When Ford first started using the "Daytona" big bearing retainer on the 9" (1963?) I believe it included select fit solid spacers instead of a crush sleeve. I discovered the parts listing while working @ a large Ford dealer in the early 70's. I ordered the whole set of spacers and still have them! They now use a minimum thickness solid spacer with a small set of thinner shims to select-fit a stackable combination for proper preload. Much easier than a set of 20 partnumbers that only vary .002" or so each! I also believe the solid spacer is also considered to be stronger/more reliable than a crush sleeve.
Mike, allow me to shed some more light on this topic for you. MAC is trying to help you out here, and that's really cool of him to do that. I agree with him that for the most part, it's good to help your mechanic of choice be prepared by providing him with the things he will likely need for the job even though he might already have some of those things in his stock.


About Cobra rear end set-ups vs. Marauders, they're both the same except for the differentials on the Cobras being 31 spline, and Marauders being 28 spline. So they don't share the same differential carriers, but since they're both Ford 8.8" rears, they DO share the same ring & pinion gears, and therefore the same shims, seals, & pinion bearings as well as differential bearings too. Where they differ is when it comes to axle bearings/axle kits because 03/04 Cobras have half-shafts to the left and to the right of the rear end, (instead of solid axles like Marauders do) and a type of U-joint assembly on each end of the half-shafts.

So what's my point? The point is that if the place that you're bringing your car to, does ring & pinion work and rear-end work in general on Cobras, and Mustangs, then they most likely have bearings, shims and seals in stock for the Ford 8.8" rear, which are interchangeable for any Ford 8.8" rear. I've never heard of anyone re-using old oil seals, because as MAC stated, they get all bent out of shape upon removal, and because of that, they would leak like a siv(sp?). But I haven't any doubt that some mechanics will use old bearings. Which is perfectly fine as long as those bearings look good, and don't have excessive mileage on them (I'd say less than 30K). But that only goes for the axle bearings and differential bearings.

When it comes to the pinion bearings, some mechanics will use the old ones, but that is NOT a good practice!! The reason being, that the general procedure with Ford rear end ring & pinion changes, is to start with the old pinion shim, and then begin making your measuements for proper pinion depth, since it often turns out that with Ford gears, you need to use the same thickness shim for the new pinion gear that you had with the old pinion. Ford gears are like that.And there's absolutely nothing wrong with re-using the original shim since there isn't any waer involved with the shims.The only reason why new shim kits are sold is in the cases where different thicknesses are needed (which does happen sometimes even with ford gears).

But to get at the old pinion shim, the pinion bearing must be pressed off of the old pinion gear with a clamshell tool, which usually distorts the bearing cage atleast a little bit. And because of that distortion that takes place, it isn't good to use the old pinion bearing. The pinion has two bearings, and it's the large one that I'm speaking of since that's the one where the pinion shim is located under. And since a new large pinion bearing should be used, then the small pinion bearing should be new also even if it looks great. "Why" you say? Because the pre-load for new pinion bearings has to be set to 20-25 in/lbs, and the pre-load spec for used pinion bearings is only 10-15 in/lbs. which determines the pressure set on the crush collar and the bearings themselves. There's a difference because new bearings will loosen up after a thousand miles or so, while used bearings will not. So the pre-load on new bearings must be set tighter so that it will still be tight enough after they loosen up. And there's only one pinion nut which is used to set the pre-load on both the large and small pinion bearings. that's why I replace both of the bearings with new ones when I perform a gear swap on a Ford rear end.

So both the large and small pinion bearings on Ford rear ends when using Ford ring & pinion gears should be new. But the differential bearings and axle bearings don't need to be touched, and if they're good, probably shouldn't be touched either (trust me on this. I know:rolleyes: ). If those bearings have low mileage on them, and look good, then that's fine. There are times when new bearings are defective, and begin making noise several thousand miles down the road, and need to be replaced. So the rule of thumb is, if you have good bearings in there, then "if it ain't broke, don't fix it".....but that rule has to be thrown out the window for the pinion bearings for the reasons I've described.

As far as those ring & pinion gear installation kits, again, if this place does a lot of ring & pinion swaps, then they will liklely have the stuff they need, and most of it is interchangeable with any Ford 8.8" rear including Cobras. However, if ther's any question in your mind about that, and you want to be more "safe than sorry" like MAC has viewed this, I can fully understand the logic in that. However, unless your Marauder has over 30K on it's clock, it isn't neccessary to buy that kit with Ford part # M4210-C because that kit includes the axle bearings, and carrier bearings, which you most likely will NOT need. What I would do, is get kit #M4210-B since that doesn't contain the axle bearings and will be less expensive. It does include the carrier bearings which you likely will NOT need either, but the only less expensive kit that's in that cataloge is the M4210-A which doesn't include the pinion bearings either. And like I said, you definately will need those!!!!

But either way, I strongly agree with MAC about using a new pinion nut since they're oval shaped which gives a locking type feature when new, and about using a new set of ring gear bolts. And you should definately bring your mechanic a bottle of the RED loc-tite just incase he isn't in the habit of using threadlocker on the ring gear bolts (some aren't in that habit at all!!).Good luck my friend. ;)

[BillyGman]

Thanks for the nice explanation of your experience and opinions on the Ford 8.8". When I had the 4.11/Detroit locker set up for my '79 F150 4x4 rear axle I had them use a solid (not crush) spacer for the pinion preload with the (big bearing) Daytona retainer so I could change the ujoint flange and/or oil seal without disturbing the preload setting. It seems if the same type of solid spacer could be used with the 8.8" it would simplify changing the ujoint flange and/or the oil seal should it start leaking or wear. It would make it a simple R&R procedure that would only require a torque wrench to torque the fresh pinion nut to spects. Whadaya think? When Ford first started using the "Daytona" big bearing retainer on the 9" (1963?) I believe it included select fit solid spacers instead of a crush sleeve. I discovered the parts listing while working @ a large Ford dealer in the early 70's. I ordered the whole set of spacers and still have them! They now use a minimum thickness solid spacer with a small set of thinner shims to select-fit a stackable combination for proper preload. Much easier than a set of 20 partnumbers that only vary .002" or so each! I also believe the solid spacer is also considered to be stronger/more reliable than a crush sleeve.You bring up an interesting point and it's funny that you should mention this, because I just noticed the other day that the 2005 Ford racing catalogue lists that same spacer that you're talking about for the 8.8" rear end. It's part # M-4662-A on page #127.

This must be something new for the 8.8 rear, because I've never heard of it before. Maybe this might sound naive, but I would like to think that if this were a better set-up than using a crush collar, then the spacer would come in the rear end from the factory with a spacer. Okay, but then again, I realize that a factory build usually will not include parts that will make life easier for things like ring & pinion gear swaps.

I believe that with this solid spacer, the proper pinion shim(s) still have to be used, and the pinion depth still must be measured to determine that. It looks to me that it simply can be re-used, and therefore it makes it easier in the future if the pinion oil seal is the on;y thing that needed to be replaced due to a leak. Thanks for the tip. Fortunately, I've never had a leakage problem on my Marauder.

[Sully008]

Update! Gave my friend the "20 questions" act before I handed over the keys. He passed with flying colours. Had the gears installed, they replaced the axle and pinion bearings and seals with brand new ones, and installed the girdle and stud kit. Took all of 5 mins. to reflash the computer.

Result: The car feels much "lighter" off the line. Doesn't take much to get up to the speed limit in city driving. Haven't put my foot into it yet because they told me to take it easy for the first couple hundred kms. Can't wait to see what happens when I give it more than 1/3 throttle off the line. :burnout:

[Rider90]

Update! Gave my friend the "20 questions" act before I handed over the keys. He passed with flying colours. Had the gears installed, they replaced the axle and pinion bearings and seals with brand new ones, and installed the girdle and stud kit. Took all of 5 mins. to reflash the computer.

Result: The car feels much "lighter" off the line. Doesn't take much to get up to the speed limit in city driving. Haven't put my foot into it yet because they told me to take it easy for the first couple hundred kms. Can't wait to see what happens when I give it more than 1/3 throttle off the line. :burnout:

Congrats, you'll love them soon enough. I think I mentioned this somewhere before but my dad, a man 25 years into the auto repair business (before selling it) told me to wait 500 miles before whomping on it. Thats the opinion I trust, it's up to you, but I hope everything works out! You'll be very happy.

[Sully008]

Congrats, you'll love them soon enough. I think I mentioned this somewhere before but my dad, a man 25 years into the auto repair business (before selling it) told me to wait 500 miles before whomping on it. Thats the opinion I trust, it's up to you, but I hope everything works out! You'll be very happy.
Hey Jason,

I remember reading your thread about your 4.10 install, I found it, but all your posts were deleted from it.:confused: Anyways, let me know what you think of the UD pullies and spacer when you get them from Bradley G. Those will probably be my next two mods since I won't be getting a S/C for a long, long time.:down:

[Rider90]

Hey Jason,

I remember reading your thread about your 4.10 install, I found it, but all your posts were deleted from it.:confused: Anyways, let me know what you think of the UD pullies and spacer when you get them from Bradley G. Those will probably be my next two mods since I won't be getting a S/C for a long, long time.:down:

Same here, S/C someday when the car is paid off. I'll post a review, should be in the next couple weeks when he gets his Trilogy in.

[Tinaree]

You'll want them to check runout of the ring gear flange. Before and after. That is where most vibrations come from when everything else seems otherwise okay.

[Cuyax]

If you dont mind my asking what was the total bill? Parts and labor for the setup?

Chad

[Sully008]

Hi Chad,

I won't post actual numbers, but I got the gears, girdle and stud kit from Wes at Innovative Interceptors :bows: (who, by the way is a vendor here and your fellow Texan). And the install I got a break on costs because my friend works at the shop I had them installed at. Labor prices will vary from shop to shop. If you really want numbers, pm me and I'll give ya the full skinny. :beer:

[Tinaree]

You bring up an interesting point and it's funny that you should mention this, because I just noticed the other day that the 2005 Ford racing catalogue lists that same spacer that you're talking about for the 8.8" rear end. It's part # M-4662-A on page #127.


I believe this is an adjustable spacer that does away with pinion shims. If I am not mistaken, Steeda also sells one now.

Amen on the pinion bearing replacement advice. In fact, what I usually suggest is to swap out the entire stock setup, carefully mark it and put it away somewhere safe and dry, and if you ever have a need you can throw it all back in and be close enough for government work with minimal hassle.

[GreekGod]

Amen on the 'swap out the entire stock setup' advice. A mechanical 31 spline locker (with new aftermarket 31 spline axles) is a smart/safe option but since the M-4220-A c-clip eliminators on page 126 are not really a good upgrade we really need the 9" big Ford housing ends with the good tapered bearings. Or, better yet a Nascar style full floater rear axle assembly!
I believe this is an adjustable spacer that does away with pinion shims. If I am not mistaken, Steeda also sells one now.

Amen on the pinion bearing replacement advice. In fact, what I usually suggest is to swap out the entire stock setup, carefully mark it and put it away somewhere safe and dry, and if you ever have a need you can throw it all back in and be close enough for government work with minimal hassle.