Marauder at Sebring

[flescher]

I was teaching at an SCCA drivers school this past weekend on the Sebring, FL short course. Had a chance, in order to properly instruct of course, to do a few reasonable hot laps around the course. It was pretty interesting to drive that fast w/o the law around. My marauder has the rear sway bar setup from Addco, still the stock tires, a transgo kit in gearbox and standard engine/transmission program. I have a dead pedal that I made which attaches to the removable floor mat which worked just dandy (sorry to those who fought me on this a year or so ago). I also have a piece of leather sewn around the seatbelt right at the buckle which allows me to cinch it up tightly w/o it lostening up. Ratchet seat belts would be better, but my little device worked just fine for a few laps.
I found the Marauder very easy to drive fast. Very nice turn-in with a little understeer mid-corner and on exit under power. Very controllable and predictable w/o lots of body roll. Transitioned nicely side to side also. I was generally pleasantly surprised. Just two issues. Automatic transmissions suck, and then there is the brakes. Going into the braking zone for the hairpin at 130 and the prayers that issued thereof isn't something I want to experience over and over again. Hard braking at the outer marker (4) produced just enough slowing down to attempt the corner, but it didn't feel like I could do this for many laps at a time. The brakes are just too small.
So what is the common understanding about upgrading brakes amongst you all these days? looks like I need some before I teach again.
H

[Marauderman]

I was teaching at an SCCA drivers school this past weekend on the Sebring, FL short course. Had a chance, in order to properly instruct of course, to do a few reasonable hot laps around the course. It was pretty interesting to drive that fast w/o the law around. My marauder has the rear sway bar setup from Addco, still the stock tires, a transgo kit in gearbox and standard engine/transmission program. I have a dead pedal that I made which attaches to the removable floor mat which worked just dandy (sorry to those who fought me on this a year or so ago). I also have a piece of leather sewn around the seatbelt right at the buckle which allows me to cinch it up tightly w/o it lostening up. Ratchet seat belts would be better, but my little device worked just fine for a few laps.
I found the Marauder very easy to drive fast. Very nice turn-in with a little understeer mid-corner and on exit under power. Very controllable and predictable w/o lots of body roll. Transitioned nicely side to side also. I was generally pleasantly surprised. Just two issues. Automatic transmissions suck, and then there is the brakes. Going into the braking zone for the hairpin at 130 and the prayers that issued thereof isn't something I want to experience over and over again. Hard braking at the outer marker (4) produced just enough slowing down to attempt the corner, but it didn't feel like I could do this for many laps at a time. The brakes are just too small.
So what is the common understanding about upgrading brakes amongst you all these days? looks like I need some before I teach again.
H
I went with "Baer".....check'um out--....a few of us have them--....they may drop in to speak a word on the subject--but the brakes place you where you want to be.....there 14" cross drilled rotors-- btw-..get all four done------its much better ......Tom

[jdando]

Have the four wheel 13.1" Wilwood setup from Todd at TCE.:up:

I hope to take them on the roadcourse at Brainerd MN this fall. I am sure they will work as good as they look.

jeremy

[Todd TCE]

Sebing huh?

That's about as taxing on brakes as you'll get with the Marauder. There are other tracks too but this place is known to be hard as the speeds are higher than on some of the others as well.

First issue you'd have to address with me is wheel fit. If you intend to stay with the stock wheels the only offering is the 1.10" wide rotor. A fine part never the less, but not as much rotor as I'd prefer to run at that circuit. I'd opt for the 1.25" wide rotor for more thermal capacity. That however means you drop the stock wheels as there is simply no room for the caliper body behind the spoke.

Spoke clearance is far and away the number on issue for the big brake kit. Any fixed mount, multi piston caliper will suffer with this on most stock wheels.

[flescher]

I would prefer to stay with the stock wheels, if only to keep the total cost down. I'm not as worried about thermal capacity as I am about swept area, fixed calipers and brake compound Availability. Aside from a few giggles once or twice a year at Sebring, etc, I have no intention of driving the car hard on the brakes for extended periods. What I am looking for are brakes that will stop the car once really well. I have yet to get the stock brakes into antilock vibration on good pavement, so I know they aren't getting the car slowed fast enough and I still have the stock tires on the car. My fear factor tells me the same thing.
just out of curosity, what do you do if I am willing to go to larger wheels?
H



Sebing huh?

That's about as taxing on brakes as you'll get with the Marauder. There are other tracks too but this place is known to be hard as the speeds are higher than on some of the others as well.

First issue you'd have to address with me is wheel fit. If you intend to stay with the stock wheels the only offering is the 1.10" wide rotor. A fine part never the less, but not as much rotor as I'd prefer to run at that circuit. I'd opt for the 1.25" wide rotor for more thermal capacity. That however means you drop the stock wheels as there is simply no room for the caliper body behind the spoke.

Spoke clearance is far and away the number on issue for the big brake kit. Any fixed mount, multi piston caliper will suffer with this on most stock wheels.

[Tallboy]

Having taken my own MM, and my Mustang, around Sebring more than a few times, I can tell you this...You want to really have fun on a road course? Porsche Carrera Turbo . No offense, but it makes the Marauder look like a bucket of wet mud.

On a road course.:D

[Todd TCE]

Having taken my own MM, and my Mustang, around Sebring more than a few times, I can tell you this...You want to really have fun on a road course? Porsche Carrera Turbo . No offense, but it makes the Marauder look like a bucket of wet mud.

On a road course.:D

Too that extent he could by a Formula Ford and a trailer for under 10k and wax both cars. And tow it there with the MM. !!

But back to the question at hand.....

The wheels are the issue. The only thing that fits behind it is the six pot with the 1.10" rotor. Unless you are willing to consider wheel spacers. In addition to the .063" one I supply.

Going alt wheel option opens the door for me to do 1.25" rotors and/or 14s as well if you have 18s. Honestly, I can't justify the cost dif on the 14s over the 13s but to each his own. (it's a parts thing)

The car will do just fine on a 1.10 for many laps. With the PROPER brake pad. What will kill it in time would be 30min open lapping sessions or pitting without a good cool down lap. Most damage is done post checker on a lot of cars. If you do not envision your MM being the next LMP car out there then enjoy this mod and run some better track pads such as E at least or H if you think you can get them hot. Keep in mind that H and others will eat up rotors quicker if they are run slowly and cool.

[Tallboy]

Too that extent he could by a Formula Ford and a trailer for under 10k and wax both cars. And tow it there with the MM. !!
Excellent point!:up:

[flescher]

Well the SCCA school conection is that I actually have an Austin Healey Sprite which I race in SCCA F Production. I was the National Champion in that class in 1995 and have finished second in the natl championships 5 other times. I own the FP lap record at Sebring (unfortunately only 10 seconds faster than the Marauder) and most of the other tracks I race on. I do have a pretty good understanding of braking systems. A 6 pot attached firmly and not a slider with good pads probably should do fine for what I need, although I have no objection to running spacers as needed. Do your brakes use different rotors from stock. My front rotors are already cryogenically treated which I insist on for rotors. It makes a hugh difference in predictability if not better stopping. Actually I do the pads too but I'm not convinced that's necessary. Is there a url I can go to to see your kits? What do I need to know?
H


Too that extent he could by a Formula Ford and a trailer for under 10k and wax both cars. And tow it there with the MM. !!

But back to the question at hand.....

The wheels are the issue. The only thing that fits behind it is the six pot with the 1.10" rotor. Unless you are willing to consider wheel spacers. In addition to the .063" one I supply.

Going alt wheel option opens the door for me to do 1.25" rotors and/or 14s as well if you have 18s. Honestly, I can't justify the cost dif on the 14s over the 13s but to each his own. (it's a parts thing)

The car will do just fine on a 1.10 for many laps. With the PROPER brake pad. What will kill it in time would be 30min open lapping sessions or pitting without a good cool down lap. Most damage is done post checker on a lot of cars. If you do not envision your MM being the next LMP car out there then enjoy this mod and run some better track pads such as E at least or H if you think you can get them hot. Keep in mind that H and others will eat up rotors quicker if they are run slowly and cool.

[Todd TCE]

Gladly.

www.tceperformanceproducts.com

For the 1.25 rotor I'd have to do some calcs on required clearance and the necessary spacer. Keep in mind wheel studs also would need to be changed. Messy for a lot of people. The 1.25 offers some alternatives that are not afforded the 1.10, mainly much thicker (.800 vs .620') brake pads.

[flescher]

PS, what are E and H pads? Which mfg? I'm familiar with the Perf Friction line, but have rarely used other pads (because when I do I'm less happy).
H

Too that extent he could by a Formula Ford and a trailer for under 10k and wax both cars. And tow it there with the MM. !!

But back to the question at hand.....

The wheels are the issue. The only thing that fits behind it is the six pot with the 1.10" rotor. Unless you are willing to consider wheel spacers. In addition to the .063" one I supply.

Going alt wheel option opens the door for me to do 1.25" rotors and/or 14s as well if you have 18s. Honestly, I can't justify the cost dif on the 14s over the 13s but to each his own. (it's a parts thing)

The car will do just fine on a 1.10 for many laps. With the PROPER brake pad. What will kill it in time would be 30min open lapping sessions or pitting without a good cool down lap. Most damage is done post checker on a lot of cars. If you do not envision your MM being the next LMP car out there then enjoy this mod and run some better track pads such as E at least or H if you think you can get them hot. Keep in mind that H and others will eat up rotors quicker if they are run slowly and cool.

[Todd TCE]

Click 'products' then 'brake pads'.

[AzMarauder]

Gladly.

www.tceperformanceproducts.com (http://www.tceperformanceproducts.com/)

For the 1.25 rotor I'd have to do some calcs on required clearance and the necessary spacer. Keep in mind wheel studs also would need to be changed. Messy for a lot of people. The 1.25 offers some alternatives that are not afforded the 1.10, mainly much thicker (.800 vs .620') brake pads.
Todd,

Will your 1.10 fit under the ROH Drift Wheels? I am going up to Chandler tomorrow to see how the Drifts fit on the stock braked car. Have you tried them on any of your brake setups?

[Todd TCE]

Todd,

Will your 1.10 fit under the ROH Drift Wheels? I am going up to Chandler tomorrow to see how the Drifts fit on the stock braked car. Have you tried them on any of your brake setups?


I don't have an answer to that question as it's just too hard to keep track of wheels for all the vehicles.

The best bet is to look over the wheel fit page under FAQ on the web site and have someone (or you) do this measuring ahead of time.
http://www.tceperformanceproducts.com/wheel_fit.html

Sorry, I was out of the shop today working on rocket parts at another shop. Really. Brakes, Race Cars, Rocket Science....I do it all! LOL :cool4:

[David Morton]

I got my KVRs through Dennis Reinhart. 14" front rotors are cross drilled, caliper carriers put the caliper low enough to clear the stock wheel weights so no balancing issues with the front wheels. Matching rear rotors are stock size and use the stock calipers. 4 braided stainless steel hoses and DOT 5.1 fluid round out the kit.

The math on the front swept area is; stock 12" rotors:251 sq. in.; KVR 14" rotors:301.5 sq. in., a 20% increase in area. There's also an increase in leverage advantage from a center-of-pad distance from spindle of 5.5" to 6.5", an 18% increase. I don't know the new caliper bore diameter so I can't give you figures on any hydraulic advantage but I believe there is one because the kit came with steel braided hoses and pedal feel is about the same as stock so my guess is the new bore diameter is larger.

Stopping power is frankly all you can use with the stock tires. ABS computer activates on both front and rear brakes on a dry, good pavement under maximum effort, especially at low speeds. I have personally never used a maximum effort at highway speeds because I'm scared to try it. I'm afraid the rear tires will leave the ground and cause the car to spin around, the 14" rotors' stopping power is that good. My "guesstimate" is front braking power is 75% greater making any rear braking increase moot because they want to leave the ground, reducing traction on the back tires.

It's all I want and more. Taking maximum advantage of the braking power the car has now would require stickier tires, stiffer front springs and a lower rear suspension height, modifications I don't want to do.

Not yet! :lol:

[Todd TCE]

"I can't give you figures on any hydraulic advantage but I believe there is one because the kit came with steel braided hoses and pedal feel is about the same as stock so my guess is the new bore diameter is larger."

"I'm afraid the rear tires will leave the ground and cause the car to spin around, the 14" rotors' stopping power is that good. My "guesstimate" is front braking power is 75% greater making any rear braking increase moot because they want to leave the ground, reducing traction on the back tires."


Thanks for posting this. That's reiterating what I've written about before being wrong with this whole package. Had they done more work to get the balance correct on this it would be a far more effective design. I won't question the look as they appear quite nice. And the workmanship top notch. But an 80% or so front brake bias (from what I'd calculated it to be last time) makes it horribly imbalanced. I'd all but guarantee you your stopping distances have increased now, not decreased as well.

*Actually you'd benefit from a good rear upgrade but it would be much easier to rework the fronts.

[Joe Walsh]

I don't have an answer to that question as it's just too hard to keep track of wheels for all the vehicles.

The best bet is to look over the wheel fit page under FAQ on the web site and have someone (or you) do this measuring ahead of time.
http://www.tceperformanceproducts.com/wheel_fit.html

Sorry, I was out of the shop today working on rocket parts at another shop. Really. Brakes, Race Cars, Rocket Science....I do it all! LOL :cool4:

Todd, those Drift 'R' 18 x 8 rims are the ones that you tested for me last year over at Group A Autotrends in Chandler Az.
If I remember correctly the 1.10" x 13" kit had tight clearance, but worked....the 14" kit was a 'NO GO'. I don't recall if you tried a 1.25" x 13" kit...??

[Todd TCE]

Todd, those Drift 'R' 18 x 8 rims are the ones that you tested for me last year over at Group A Autotrends in Chandler Az.
If I remember correctly the 1.10" x 13" kit had tight clearance, but worked....the 14" kit was a 'NO GO'. I don't recall if you tried a 1.25" x 13" kit...??

Ahh, thought that name sounded familiar. Thanks for the heads up. The standard kit was the only one we managed. Any thing wider (or larger OD) would not clear then.

[cougarmandan]

I hate to change the subject. but I have been looking all over the internet for a decent looking dead pedal. I just happened across this post. It would be more comfortable if I had something to set that left foot on. What all info do you have on that Dead Pedal?

I like the preformance of these big beasts, but the reason I bought my Marauder is for something newer to take on long trips and accomidates a car seat. Its spacious,(huge trunk) comfortable, quiet, handles, accelerates, and drives very well and although I would like more braking, I haven't needed it yet. It already stops better than my Mark 8. On them long trips, I need somewhere to move my left foot too since I don't have a clutch. I have a 93 Cobra with a S trim Vortec supercharger and when I need to go fast, around the twisties, and hammer on the brake pedal, I get it out. It really is the way to go and probably cheaper than putting all this dough into new brakes. However, it could do better too. My brother's 01 Bullet is better in the twisties. Those are getting resonable on their prices and they are limited edtion like the Marauders. Just some random thoughts.

[HwyCruiser]

I hate to change the subject. but I have been looking all over the internet for a decent looking dead pedal. I just happened across this post. It would be more comfortable if I had something to set that left foot on. What all info do you have on that Dead Pedal?

Many of us bought dead pedals from Kenny Brown, but I heard his shop is temporarly closed while he recovers from an illness. Hopefully he'll be opening his shop back up soon.

http://www.kennybrown.com/

Back on topic:

TCE brakes rock!