Tick... Tick... Tick...again... [Archive] - MercuryMarauder.net Forums

looking97233

07-27-2005, 07:56 PM

I know an old issue.

I finally found a dealer whom would actually look at my car. After trying five or six different ones and getting the answer 'Ford is aware of the problem and is working on a fix' for the last year and a half. The service guy said they would take it apart and find out what is wrong THEN call the ford tech. line.

So, I dropped the car off monday night, got a call this afternoon. They say the problem is a faulty lifter. i.e. one of them won't stay pumped up. The problem is finding which one.

Others that have had the tick needed to have a head replaced due to overheating caused by poor water passage design. I had assumed that my 'diesel' tick was the same thing. Can any knowelogeable people comment on the dealers diagnosis?
Thanks,
Rod.

Rider90

07-27-2005, 07:56 PM

This thread scares me.

DEFYANT

07-27-2005, 08:03 PM

This thread scares me.
Tick? :eek:

What Tick? I dont have no tick! :shake:

I'll be over here w/my head in the sand praying this issue never applys to me :sleepy:

modular46

07-27-2005, 09:23 PM

This thread scares me.

What he said ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ :eek:

HwyCruiser

07-27-2005, 09:53 PM

My '03 had the ticks bad and my dealer torqued down the "cam towers" (cam guide cap bolts) to spec... no more ticks.

I've also heard of others doing the same themselves with success. I guess the cam covers can be a booger to R&R though.

SergntMac

07-27-2005, 10:33 PM

They say the problem is a faulty lifter. i.e. one of them won't stay pumped up. The problem is finding which one.
Yep, that would be a problem all right, can't imagine the fix for it either.

Ford modular engines (2 or 4 valve), are overhead cam engines, which do not have lifters.

JACook

07-28-2005, 12:54 AM

Ford modular engines (2 or 4 valve), are overhead cam engines, which do not have lifters. Well, true, they're not _lifters_, but they do look kinda like an old-fashioned hydraulic lifter, with the same
lash-adjusting internals. Can't say as I understand why they'd spend a whole lotta time trying to figure out
which one though. Wonder how many hours of labor it would take before it'd be cheaper to just replace 'em all?
Does sound like someone is blowing a bit of smoke...

marauder307

07-28-2005, 05:36 AM

Please keep us all informed...this is a consistently recurrent problem and with the end of my warranty period fast approaching, I'd kinda like to get it fixed before I no longer have the option...

I will be interested to know what you find out....

SergntMac

07-28-2005, 08:26 AM

Well, true, they're not _lifters_, but they do look kinda like an old-fashioned hydraulic lifter, with the same lash-adjusting internals. Does sound like someone is blowing a bit of smoke...
Okay...I'll agree that "valve lash adjusters" are in the same family as a typical "lifter." They have similar functions, which is to adjust the valve stem/rocker arm relationship and they do so hydraulically, but they are not "lifters" the the pushrod sense of the technology.

The OEM valve lash adjuster on the 4V DOHC is known for it's durability and longevity. It's been tested and used in full bore race engines through 8000 RPM with no problems. But, problems can be created by the end user and this leads me to consider one additional point, which I really, really hate to bring up.

http://www.babcox.com/editorial/us/us110216.htm

Looking97233...Rod...What oil brand and weight have you been using?

BillyGman

07-28-2005, 08:54 AM

There seems to be many Marauder owners as well as 4.6L engine Cobra and Mustang owners who state that their cars have the infamous "tick" however, I've heard some Cobra owners state that they've had as much as 100K miles on their engines w/out any lack of performance, nor mechanical damage despite having this "tick" for that entire time........ Draw your own conclusions.

STLThunder

07-28-2005, 09:04 AM

Has anyone tried DEET?

Warpath

07-28-2005, 09:35 AM

It depends on what tick you are referring to. The injectors tick everytime the squirt. Its the same tick you hear when a electrical relay trips. Its not really loud and is completely normal. A lot of people mistake this tick for valve train issues.

looking97233

07-28-2005, 04:22 PM

First off...

SgtMac: All oil changes have been done By a Ford dealer and entered into the computer.

Now for an update: Servie guy called me today, said that the waranity company will not authorize any work with out a failure. (45k mi on my MM, extended waranity) The tech seems to think that maybe a valve is burnt or has a bent stem. However, if they pull the head and don't find anything wrong, I get the bill. I have been complaning about this since the car had less than 20k miles on it. I was always told that ford knows about the issue and is working on a fix, and that I would have to wait until the fix was released. So, my point now is that this is a documented issue with my car, ford refused to fix it while it was under factory waranity. Now I may get stuck with the bill. It's just not right. Starting to sound exactly like the spun cam gear issue on the V8 Taurus SHO. People got the same result. Ford would not fix the problem until the vehicle was out of waranity.

Any help or advice would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Rod.

Glenn

07-28-2005, 07:18 PM

Sorry, fellows, but I have been listening to the "TICK" threads for 2 years. Just do as I do, drive the living P*** out of your MM and don't worry about it. I have 42,000 hard miles on my MM with tick - no problems!

Anyone ever run with a Dodge Neon STR Stage #3 turbo (355 HP-365 TQ in a 2,900# car) on the interstate. Impressive car - I was very surprised when the driver gave me the thumbs up and took an exit.

Glenn

NPG's Marauder

07-28-2005, 07:43 PM

Interesting... because the 03 Marauder that I looked at last week.... scary results as above of what I'm reading above from you guys...(ticking noise from the passenger side) on a hot engine after it warmed up from the test drive!!! not a good thing, espically when it's not under fatory warenty!!! so I take my time and look something elsc... so I hope good luck to find the problem more deeper for that ticking noise because it's scary when it cost an engine without a warrenty!! just like the v8 SHO '96 to '99 motor with timing cam problem!! 18500$ a motor canadian!! at least!!

TooManyFords

07-28-2005, 07:50 PM

Anyone ever run with a Neon SRT on the interstate. Impressive car - I was very surprised when the driver gave me the thumbs up and took an exit.

Glenn
Not on the interstate, but on the street and it was over before he could hit second gear... Kids...
:P
John

SergntMac

07-29-2005, 02:43 AM

First off...SgtMac: All oil changes have been done By a Ford dealer and entered into the computer. Rod. Thanks, Rod, but that wasn't my question. I asked about brand and weight, not frequency, because of how that may affect your "lifters", as it is explained in the research article link I included with my post. Nevermind though, sounds like a different problem now, best wishes.

looking97233

07-29-2005, 12:36 PM

SgtMac The oil should be motorcraft 5-20W synth-blend. I can't say as I always checked. I always made sure to tell them that is what it is supposed to have. In any case if to heavy of an oil is the cause of the problem, having done the oil changes, they need to fix that too.

RF Overlord

07-29-2005, 12:59 PM

The oil should be motorcraft 5-20W synth-blend. if to heavy of an oil is the cause of the problem, having done the oil changes, they need to fix that too.

5W-20 IS the recommended oil for most Fords now (I say MOST, as there is a small number of engines that still spec 5W-30). Hopefully that is what the dealer is using...however, using 5w-30 in your MM will NOT start a HLA tick, or cause any other problems, so even if that's what they've been using, I wouldn't worry. It's also unlikely that any dealer would install an oil much heavier than 5W-30, like a 15W-40 for instance, except by mistake, and hopefully that would be a one-time occurance.

This is another time when having a REAL working oil pressure gauge comes in handy...if the wrong oil went in, you'd be able to see the change in pressure.
You DO have a REAL working gauge, right...? :P ;)

CRUZTAKER

07-30-2005, 06:19 AM

Mine still ticks at 30,000 miles....:(

rayjay

07-30-2005, 06:27 AM

5W-20 IS the recommended oil for most Fords now (I say MOST, as there is a small number of engines that still spec 5W-30). Hopefully that is what the dealer is using...however, using 5w-30 in your MM will NOT start a HLA tick, or cause any other problems, so even if that's what they've been using, I wouldn't worry. It's also unlikely that any dealer would install an oil much heavier than 5W-30, like a 15W-40 for instance, except by mistake, and hopefully that would be a one-time occurance.

This is another time when having a REAL working oil pressure gauge comes in handy...if the wrong oil went in, you'd be able to see the change in pressure.
You DO have a REAL working gauge, right...? :P ;)
I agree with RF. Ford only went to 5w-20 to improve its fleet MPG. I could not find Mobil 1 5w-20 when I changed my oil recently. I put in Mobil 1 5w-30. I immediately noticed that engine runs more quiet, especially the valve train.

SergntMac

07-30-2005, 11:01 AM

Rider90

07-30-2005, 11:12 AM

Funny...How things go in circles...

I'm two days into a 1K mile field test of Quaker State 10W40 for "high mileage" engines. Engine is quieter, as I would suspect. It's running hotter too, from a norm of 183 to a norm of 198, which I also would expect. I'm watching for signs of consumption, and I'll be racing on it next Tuesday...
Mac, since you are trying different oils, would you mind sharing the results with the north side? I'm interested in your feedback of noise, temps, anything else. Thank you.

SergntMac

07-30-2005, 11:21 AM

Mac, since you are trying different oils, would you mind sharing the results with the north side? I'm interested in your feedback of noise, temps, anything else. Thank you. Sure, not a problem. I usually disclose what I find in full detail, which tends to rub some the wrong way. But, you started this project, so...

rumble

07-31-2005, 07:54 AM

First off...

SgtMac: All oil changes have been done By a Ford dealer and entered into the computer.

The tech seems to think that maybe a valve is burnt or has a bent stem. However, if they pull the head and don't find anything wrong, I get the bill. Any help or advice would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Rod.

As one who has been in this business since about the time Chevy started mass producing V8's here is my advice.

You don't really have a engine problem, you have a dealer problem. If possible you should try and find a dealer who can at least diagnose a burnt valve without taking the head off and one who will work with you. If you correctly understood what this person said, and I'm not saying you didn't, he doesn't have the expertise to repair your car. Please understand too, as many have said here, that this tic seems to be in most cases harmless and leads to no other problems.

jstevens

07-31-2005, 08:42 AM

Funny...How things go in circles...

I'm two days into a 1K mile field test of Quaker State 10W40 for "high mileage" engines. Engine is quieter, as I would suspect. It's running hotter too, from a norm of 183 to a norm of 198, which I also would expect. I'm watching for signs of consumption, and I'll be racing on it next Tuesday...

Please explain. I can understand the engine would be quieter due to the heavier weight, but why would it run a little hotter.

Just curious and no attempt to flame, trying to understand these engine mechanics.

Thanks, John

SergntMac

07-31-2005, 09:27 AM

Please explain. I can understand the engine would be quieter due to the heavier weight, but why would it run a little hotter. Just curious and no attempt to flame, trying to understand these engine mechanics. Thanks, John The lubrication system has some cooling responsibilities, and oil weight figures in that. As oil lubes the engine, it also absorbs heat and carries that away. If the oil is too thin, it doesn't stay resident long enough to absorb heat, and if too thick, it stays resident too long, and eventually heat soaks thus not providing any temp control, because the oil is hotter than the engine block/internals it's coating. I'm starting out with the 10W40 Quaker State and working my way down in weights.

bugsys03

07-31-2005, 09:43 AM

Funny...How things go in circles...

I'm two days into a 1K mile field test of Quaker State 10W40 for "high mileage" engines.

High mileage Mac? Are you talking about your MM? You cant have more than a few thousand miles on your rebuild can you? Is the oil you are trying synthetic? Blend?

SergntMac

07-31-2005, 10:06 AM

High mileage Mac? Are you talking about your MM? You cant have more than a few thousand miles on your rebuild can you? Is the oil you are trying synthetic? Blend?Typically, an engine built for high performance emulates all the characteristics of a used high mileage beater engine. Though one is built to perform, both share very similar states.

Yes, it is a synthetic blend, 2.69 a quart and I use seven quarts. And, it's because I have this stronger engine now, that I can test this stuff out without worry of damage.

I've been wanting to do this type of testing for a while, and I'm taking my chance. Each batch tested will be monitored for normal temp, normal pressure, normal consumption, and other side affects. I'll let you know what I learn, thanks for asking.

looking97233

08-01-2005, 04:21 PM

Marauder2005

08-01-2005, 10:11 PM

rumble

08-02-2005, 01:59 PM

Rumble, thanks for your advice. However, my MMs tick started at about 15k mi. It has grown worse over time. Almost sounds like a diesel. you can hear it from 25-30 feet away from the car. Also the car has had since almost new some pre-detination (ping) that has grown worse as the tick has grown worse. Under light acceleration going up an incline it is horrible, makes me cringe. I will be suprised if they don't find some piston dammage when the pull the head. The computer has been reflashed and I have been told several times 'ford is working on a fix..."

OK, that does seem to be outside the norm. Has the dealer offered to do a
"leak down" or compression test or even a bore scope exam? If you do have
internal damage such as a piston or vale these methods will normally find them.
"Horrible" noise under acceleration like you describe sounds suspiciously
like a detonation problem.

Have you had the torque on the cam hold down bolts checked?

Please, keep us in the loop as to what you find.

looking97233

08-08-2005, 04:21 PM

Heard from the Ford dealer today. Since my MM is out of factory waranty (46k mi.) the aftermarket waranty company is a pain to deal with (important note for future: when buying an extended waranty, make sure you get the manufacturers one. i.e. Ford ESP.) Whereas Ford would have just replaced the head, the waranty company (National) wants a diagnosis and pictures first, then they will only pay for repairing the offending part. However, the Ford regional rep. stepped in and said they would do an out of waranty adjustment if they need to to get the car fixed. Also, the owner of the dealership said that he would cover any cost not covered by the waranty company (they will not pay for diagnosis.) Anyway Friday the head was pulled and sent out to a machine shop to be disassembilied and find out exactly what is wrong. (The service writer told me "we don't do that here anymore.") Today I found out the answer but not the details: Two cylinders have bad/burnt valves/valve seats and one or possibily both of them have bad valve springs.

Thats all I know at the moment, will fill in more detailed info as I get it.
So finally I know I'm not crazy, there is actually something wrong here.
Thanks to Ford for stepping up (better late than never) and Thanks to Courtesy Ford for taking care of it and offering to eat anything not taken care of by the waranty company/ Ford.

jgc61sr2002

08-08-2005, 04:30 PM

Sounds like an excellent dealer , :D which are far and few between. Good luck with the repairs.

Warpath

08-09-2005, 08:54 AM

Is your MM stock? I'm wondering whether a mod lead to the burnt valves or if it was strickly a Ford quality problem.

I'm surprised the warranty co. wants to rebuild the heads. That is labor intensive. Labor is more expensive than parts are.

looking97233

08-09-2005, 03:54 PM

warpath- yep still stock, I didn't want to do anything with this problem pending.
What I am told is that they (waranty company) will only pay to fix what is found wrong. Hopefully the bill on fixing the head would be more than replacing it. Also in consideration is if they want to fix the head, I don't get the new revisied head and I will most likely have this problem again as I think TTA ? had the ticking come back.

CRUZTAKER

08-09-2005, 07:26 PM

My dealer agreed to open her up today and re-torque everything.

Nice. :)

Looks like I have a doctors appointment after MV-III.

looking97233

08-09-2005, 07:45 PM

Wow. What small holes. The only other engine I have seen apart is my 460.

But anyway, can ya'all who know what you're looking at take a peek and tell me if it's okay or not. Lots of carbon build up, but no melted spots or holes that I can see.

http://www.mercurymarauder.net/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=7608&size=big&cat=500&page=1

rumble

08-10-2005, 02:41 PM

looking97233

08-10-2005, 05:07 PM

Can you possibly get any photos of the burnt valves and head
showing the seats?

Thanks for keeping us up to date on this.

Rumble-

I'll try but the head is out at the machine shop right now. I don't know if they are going to try to fix it or just replace the head altogether.

SergntMac

08-10-2005, 05:25 PM

That's a pretty intense pic, have to look at it again tomorrow from my office computer, which has better resolution.

Meanwhile, I don't like what I can see now. That's a whole lot of carbon build-up, and some piston damage too (I think). Here's a pic of my piston next to a Cobra piston, taken last November...

http://www.mercurymarauder.net/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=6369&cat=500&page=2

As ugly as it appears, it's healthy. I have more (and better) pics, drop me a line at SergntMac@aol.com for a zip file? Until then, your pistons are very sick, IMHO...You decide? Maybe some experts can chime in?

Warpath

08-10-2005, 06:28 PM

I'm no expert. But, I agree with Mac. There is more build up then what I would expect. I'm assuming what appears to be a black hole (chunk missing) is just puddled oil or something. When carbon build up gets rediculously thick, it will increase compression ratio and/or become hot spots and create preignition (knock).

How many miles are on it? Attached is a pic of my Cobra pistons after almost 3000 miles with about 200 blown.

I wonder whether it was running too rich or whether oil got into the cylinders. Bad valve guides will get oil in the cylinder. But, according to the pic, each cylinder would have bad guides.

looking97233

08-10-2005, 07:39 PM

Warpath-

Actually the black hole is coolant that dripped in there (#4) and has turned black from all the carbon. No holes, no chunck missing.

In the pic. you can see where at the top of each piston there is a ridge of carbon. This ridge is almost 1/16" thick.

After seeing yours and SgtMac's piston pics, I think I need to go talk to my service guy. I went in after the service dept. was closed yesterday and took the pics. He had told me on the phone that the pistons were all good.

MERCMAN

08-11-2005, 04:06 AM

I have a Tick, can be heard in the drivers side wheel-well. My dealer

told me it was normal for these engines. I have 15,000 miles so far and

she runs like a top. I trust there judgement, call me crazy :burnout:
OK,, you are crazy, and that is NOT normal!! I had the tick and they replaced my heads at 7K:up:

SergntMac

08-11-2005, 07:24 AM

But anyway, can ya'all who know what you're looking at take a peek and tell me if it's okay or not. Lots of carbon build up, but no melted spots or holes that I can see.

http://www.mercurymarauder.net/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=7608&size=big&cat=500&page=1Took a much better look at this pic from the office computer, and I don't have anything good to say. Though the piston tops are intact, the carbon buildup is severe and uneven. You should be able to detect a 3cc dish in the piston top, as you can see in mine, and there's no trace of that.

I think this is your tick. Carbon build up to the point where it contacts an open valve. However, being relatively soft and building slowly, without damaging the valve, just making it "chime" a bit. Also, there is a definite burn pattern in the piston tops, and it's clearly not burning evenly. Can you get any pics of the head? Inside of the combustion chamber? Check your valves for likewise buildup.

Your second problem is what to do about this. The deposits appear so thick to me that if you clean them up, and not clean the other side, your engine will run rough due to uneven compression. Sorry I don't have a better impression, I would like to be wrong.

TooManyFords

08-11-2005, 07:54 AM

I agree with Mac on this one. I would definitely pull the other head to clean those pistons and the combustion chambers. If the other bank of pistons look similar, then you really need to go out and run it up to WOT at least once a week. That helps.

The only other question I have is do you see any blue smoke? Are we dealing with a compelte failure of valve stem seals? Or could it be the gas? There is way too much carbon build-up to be just gas unless you really never get above 1500 rpm while putting around town.

Carbon build-up is a vicious cycle; it builds up and causes pinging which the computer detects so it pulls timing which then leads to more build-up which leads to less timing...

Keep us posted and get some good pictures of the combustion chamber.

Good luck.

John

looking97233

08-11-2005, 12:24 PM

My MM never gets driven easy. I drive it hard however, not harshly. The car sees WOT just about every day it is driven. As I said eariler in this thread, this is a problem that has been building since almost new. I have tried and tried in the past to get somebody to look at (Ford/ LM dealers) but all I got was either "that's normal there's nothing wrong" or, "Ford says they know there is a problem and they're working on a fix"

A question for ya'all... This carbon build up, what is it caused by? Is it from running lean and too hot over a long period of time? Or from oil intrusion into the cylinders? Or something else altoghter?

I have hi-res pics of each cylinder, I will upload them this evening when I get home from work.

Thanks, keep the info flowing.
Rod.

rumble

08-11-2005, 02:13 PM

I know an old issue.

So, I dropped the car off monday night, got a call this afternoon. They say the problem is a faulty lifter. i.e. one of them won't stay pumped up. The problem is finding which one.

Can any knowelogeable people comment on the dealers diagnosis?
Thanks,
Rod.

I assume that all the lifters have checked out OK now that the head is off?

looking97233

08-11-2005, 04:49 PM

I assume that all the lifters have checked out OK now that the head is off?

I think so. The machuine shop is doing valve seats and new valves.

looking97233

08-11-2005, 05:00 PM

Okay hi-res pictures of each hole 2,4,6,8 have been uploaded to the gallery.

http://www.mercurymarauder.net/gallery/showgallery.php?cat=500&ppuser=447

Okay I found out that the most likely reason for the carbon build-up would be from running rich. So what causes that? Bad injectors- poor atomization and/or spray pattern? I believe the pingging is a symptom of the carbon build-up. Funny, I thought one usually associates pinging with a lean condition. But for all that carbon to build-up it must be running pig rich, right?

After talking with the service rep. today, they will clean the carbon off the open side and pull plugs to bore-scope the other side, if necessary they will pull the other head to clean that side too. They are replacing valves on the bad head, that is all the waranty company will pay for.

I am going to call Dennis in the morning and have him ship a rear engine cooling kit to the dealer so they can install that while the head is off.

Anyone else have any help, ideas or other such stuff?

rayjay

08-11-2005, 05:51 PM

Wow! Thats a mess. What fuel was run it? I believe you have to pull the engine to install the DR rear cooling kit.

JACook

08-11-2005, 06:04 PM

In the pic. you can see where at the top of each piston there is a ridge of carbon. This ridge is almost 1/16" thick. The carbon ridge corresponds with the quench zone between the intake valves. This is fairly common.
There's a corresponding quench zone between the exhaust valves, but you won't see the heavy buildup
there because the quench zone is a bit shallower, and there's a lot more heat between the exhaust
valves than between the intakes.

Carbon buildup in this area does not increase detonation. In fact, it has exactly the opposite effect.
By reducing the effective head-to-piston clearance, it improves quench turbulence. That's a Good Thing.
Also, I see no evidence at all of collisions with the cylinder head. This buildup is not causing the tick.

Guys, I've seen way worse than this in engines I've pulled apart. And I've pulled apart quite a few.
The coolant that soaked into the carbon, and/or solvent that was sprayed in the cylinders to keep 'em
from rusting, make the buildup look worse than it is. This stuff would have been grey before it got wet.
The shiny areas that are showing through tell me this stuff isn't as thick as y'all seem to think it is.
I can clearly see the contour of the dish, though it is a softer dish than some other modular pistons
I've seen.

The buildup comes primarily from oil burning in the cylinders. Running rich will not cause this. Running the
engine hard does help to reduce the buildup, but just using WOT isn't enough. You have to drive it like
you stole it. Get some heat in those cylinders. Find the rev limiter. Take longer trips.

I'm not nearly so concerned with the carbon buildup as I am with the amount of varnish I see in the
timing chain area and in the cylinder head oil drainback passages. What kind of oil are you running in this
engine? How long between changes? Please promise me this car's never been to a Jiffy Lube...

looking97233

08-11-2005, 08:05 PM

The carbon ridge corresponds with the quench zone between the intake valves. This is fairly common.
There's a corresponding quench zone between the exhaust valves, but you won't see the heavy buildup
there because the quench zone is a bit shallower, and there's a lot more heat between the exhaust
valves than between the intakes.

Carbon buildup in this area does not increase detonation. In fact, it has exactly the opposite effect.
By reducing the effective head-to-piston clearance, it improves quench turbulence. That's a Good Thing.
Also, I see no evidence at all of collisions with the cylinder head. This buildup is not causing the tick.

Guys, I've seen way worse than this in engines I've pulled apart. And I've pulled apart quite a few.
The coolant that soaked into the carbon, and/or solvent that was sprayed in the cylinders to keep 'em
from rusting, make the buildup look worse than it is. This stuff would have been grey before it got wet.
The shiny areas that are showing through tell me this stuff isn't as thick as y'all seem to think it is.
I can clearly see the contour of the dish, though it is a softer dish than some other modular pistons
I've seen.

The buildup comes primarily from oil burning in the cylinders. Running rich will not cause this. Running the
engine hard does help to reduce the buildup, but just using WOT isn't enough. You have to drive it like
you stole it. Get some heat in those cylinders. Find the rev limiter. Take longer trips.

I'm not nearly so concerned with the carbon buildup as I am with the amount of varnish I see in the
timing chain area and in the cylinder head oil drainback passages. What kind of oil are you running in this
engine? How long between changes? Please promise me this car's never been to a Jiffy Lube...

JACook-

All services have been performed by a F/L/M Dealer. Oil should be Motorcraft 5w-20w synth-blend(That is what they're supposed to use, and I tell them each and evry time just to remind them.) Intervial between service 5k mi. or less.

So what is your "o'er the net diagnosis" of the cause for the heavy pinging?
Always run 92 octaine gas(best we can get in Oregon or Washington) She gets run hard, often 4+ hrs at 80-90mph on the freeway. Just got back from a six week road trip. Put 10,000 mi on her during that time. Texas is a big place. It has had the tick since about 15k mi. The pinging showed up soon after, and both have grown woorse over time. Dealer says they are replacing two valves, springs, and seats on theoffending head. I just want to find out what the root cause is and make sure it gets fixed so I don't end up in the same place again.

Rod.

JACook

08-11-2005, 09:50 PM

So what is your "o'er the net diagnosis" of the cause for the heavy pinging?
Always run 92 octaine gas(best we can get in Oregon or Washington) She gets run hard, often 4+ hrs at 80-90mph on the freeway. Just got back from a six week road trip. Put 10,000 mi on her during that time. Texas is a big place. It has had the tick since about 15k mi. The pinging showed up soon after, and both have grown woorse over time. Dealer says they are replacing two valves, springs, and seats on theoffending head. I just want to find out what the root cause is and make sure it gets fixed so I don't end up in the same place again.
Given the vintage, and the known #7 and #8 cooling problems, I'd suspect that's what did you in.
(BTW, Ford numbers the driver's side cylinders 5,6,7,8. Don't ask me why.)
The cooling problems could account for both the pinging and the burnt valves. My late-production 300B
has a 3G-120-BB tag on the right cam cover, the blue paint visible just under the left cam cover, and
the CRD1 calibration label on the driver's door pillar. It has no hint of ping on Kalifornia 91 octane and
90-plus ambient temps. If it were me, I'd be pushing for a revised cylinder head, or at least do the DR
cooling mod. And if it still pings after you get some miles on the repair, get it right back in there, and
don't take no for an answer. I should think you've got some leverage now.

SergntMac

08-12-2005, 10:40 AM

I believe you have to pull the engine to install the DR rear cooling kit.Not at all, Zack installs the kit from up top. If you have the tranny out for other reasons, that's the easiest time to install it, but the engine does not have to come out.

The carbon ridge corresponds with the quench zone between the intake valves. This is fairly common. There's a corresponding quench zone between the exhaust valves, but you won't see the heavy buildup there because the quench zone is a bit shallower, and there's a lot more heat between the exhaust valves than between the intakes. Carbon buildup in this area does not increase detonation. In fact, it has exactly the opposite effect.
By reducing the effective head-to-piston clearance, it improves quench turbulence. That's a Good Thing. Also, I see no evidence at all of collisions with the cylinder head. This buildup is not causing the tick.

Guys, I've seen way worse than this in engines I've pulled apart. And I've pulled apart quite a few. The coolant that soaked into the carbon, and/or solvent that was sprayed in the cylinders to keep 'em from rusting, make the buildup look worse than it is. This stuff would have been grey before it got wet. The shiny areas that are showing through tell me this stuff isn't as thick as y'all seem to think it is. I can clearly see the contour of the dish, though it is a softer dish than some other modular pistons I've seen.

The buildup comes primarily from oil burning in the cylinders. Running rich will not cause this. Running the engine hard does help to reduce the buildup, but just using WOT isn't enough. You have to drive it like you stole it. Get some heat in those cylinders. Find the rev limiter. Take longer trips.

I'm not nearly so concerned with the carbon buildup as I am with the amount of varnish I see in the timing chain area and in the cylinder head oil drainback passages. What kind of oil are you running in this engine? How long between changes? Please promise me this car's never been to a Jiffy Lube...Varnish? Rust? Are we looking at the same pics?

Troubleshooting on line is difficult, and just because we have pics doesn't make anything more clear. I could not see half the stuff on my home computer, that I can see on my office display, plus I can zoom with clarity. Looking, you took some great pics for zooming, lot's of resolution on tap. Sadly, I don't think JACook is seeing the whole picture as clearly as I can.

There's no varnish present, but there is residue of engine oil and coolant I would expect ro see from pulling the head. I would not expect the wrench to add any rust inhibitor, for what purpose? What's going to rust? The oil present is rather clean too, a light brown maple syrup appearance. Most importantly, I can clearly see very thick carbon build up that has a texture to it. Looking says it's about 1/16" thick, that's rather fat, yes?

Cylinders 5 and 6 are most clear, zoom at 12 o'clock, and you see the impression of valves. Light impressions, but impressions nonetheless. I also strongly disagree with a lot of other remarks posted by JACook, but I won't get into that.

looking97233

08-12-2005, 05:45 PM

SargntMac is correct nothing has been sprayed into the cylinders. The only thing there is a little oil and coolant that got dripped in when the head was pulled.

I think when she?(he?, I dunno haven't 'sexed' my MM. Maybe I'll take a good look under on Monday when I go to check progress) gets all cleaned up and back toghter and running. I'll spend a day to pull the injectors and take them down to Injector Service (a shop here in Portland) they will flow and pattern test them. (This I was told by a friend whom is a mechanic)

Rod.

SergntMac

08-13-2005, 08:35 AM

Here's some pics of damaged pistons, y'all compare.

http://www.buckeye-illinois.com/pistons.htm

Dennis Reinhart

08-13-2005, 10:08 AM

Here's some pics of damaged pistons, y'all compare.

http://www.buckeye-illinois.com/pistons.htm
HERE IS THE TSB FOR THE TICKING NOISE this apply AS WELL AS BLUE SMOKE ON START UP.

Now it does no specifically say smoke on start up, but you have to read the TSB it states that there will be damage to the valve guides, which of course will cause oil to leak in the cylinders, and some of you may wonder why they do not change both heads the answer is very simple the passenger head was made by a different company and they do not have this issue, only on the drivers side, so I hope this helps the members here I have already arranger to have member in Miami to bring the car and I will have the head replaced UNDER WARRANTY.

http://web.iwebcenters.com/reinhartautomotive/images/session/00-00-1123952181-MARAUDERHEADTSB.jpg

http://web.iwebcenters.com/reinhartautomotive/images/session/00-00-1123952181-MARAUDERHEADTSB.jpg

rayjay

08-13-2005, 10:45 AM

Dennis, just to play devils advocate, how do folks convince the average L/M dealer that this TSB applies to a Marauder? The dealer I bought my DTR through hasn't a clue what a MM is.

Dennis Reinhart

08-13-2005, 11:29 AM

Dennis, just to play devils advocate, how do folks convince the average L/M dealer that this TSB applies to a Marauder? The dealer I bought my DTR through hasn't a clue what a MM is.
By the production date and casting number on the head

looking97233

08-25-2005, 05:59 PM

Well, hum.. got the car back today, runs great no more tick. Got the rear engine cooling mod installed too. 95 degrees out today and no pinging woo-hoo!

All is good except,

THE SWASTICA RUBBED INTO MY HOOD.

The service mgr. caught me and told me about it before I saw the car. I guess I just am doomed to always have problems with cars. Always something. I need to take it back to my body shop anyway to have the paint cut and buffed to fix the primer shrinkage from when it was painted eariler this year (vandals knifed and keyed it) hopefully they can get it fixed by just doing the cut and buff.