Lightning motor in a Marauder

[Rkammer]

I've got access to a complete motor from a 2004 Lightning truck. In general, what would be involved in transplanting it into my MM? I know the hood clearance is not sufficient. So, how many inches too tall is it? I would probably design a hood scoop for my hood. Any other problems? I can pick up the engine and tranny for under $4000.

[SergntMac]

Well, you know about the hood clearance, but there may be some tightness with the wiper assembly and cowl at the firewall. When you get the engine, make sure to get the front wire harness and EEC too, it will make your life easier.

[Logan]

8 full inches above the hood line. Sorry, there's no way to make a lightning motor look pretty in a Marauder.

[martyo]

Our cars need a push rod motor. Ditch the mod motors which take up a ton of space and slip in a 400 plus cu. in. push rod motor, throw on a power adder or two and then you are talking.

Go ahead, just try and disagree with that logic.

This would fit with room to spare!

http://www.streetcarforums.com/attachment.php?s=&postid=397367

[DEFYANT]

Our cars need a push rod motor. Ditch the mod motors which take up a ton of space and slip in a 400 plus cu. in. push rod motor, throw on a power adder or two and then you are talking.

Go ahead, just try and disagree with that logic.
Would that be CARB certified? :D

[martyo]

Would that be CARB certified? :D

The folks on here who think that their altered cars are CARB compliant are smoking even more crack than me, so what's the difference?

[DEFYANT]

It was a joke hense the ":D ".

:shake:

[martyo]

It was a joke hense the ":D ".

:shake:

And you took what I was saying seriously? Come over and we will smoke crack together and make peace.

When can you get here?

[prchrman]

I've got access to a complete motor from a 2004 Lightning truck. In general, what would be involved in transplanting it into my MM? I know the hood clearance is not sufficient. So, how many inches too tall is it? I would probably design a hood scoop for my hood. Any other problems? I can pick up the engine and tranny for under $4000.

Do it...I want to know how that thing would run...you would be the first and just keep the removed motor if you want too got back...someone could fab a hood that would look great if you got the right person...again...do it...everyone on the board would want a look and a ride...willie

[SergntMac]

Go ahead, just try and disagree with that logic.I disagree! LOL...

For me, the fun is attacking the inadequacy of the 4.6 DOHC and making it perform, or, break. Sure, stepping back to the pushrod days is an easy fix, but what are your trying to do in the first place? Win? Go fast? Look Pretty? Look pretty and go fast, and win? Hey, do what ever, but enjoy doing it.

I bought this car to have fun, that's my rationale and I'm having a lot of it. When it's not fun, I'll go do something else.

Maybe the MM wouldn't look so bad without a hood?

Guess someone's gotta do it first, so we can all stand around and laugh...

[martyo]

Maybe the MM wouldn't look so bad without a hood?

My solution would cure all of the hood clearance issues. Plus, with the turbos and a push rod motor, no one would expect the car to run 9's. :D

[Rider90]

My solution would cure all of the hood clearance issues. Plus, with the turbos and a push rod motor, no one would expect the car to run 9's. :D
My hood is coming off, as I have already stacked nine PHP spacers and will begin the install tomorrow :D

[hitchhiker]

And you took what I was saying seriously? Come over and we will smoke crack together and make peace.

When can you get here?
Crack makem want to shootem.

Smokem this instead.

http://www.hightimes.com/420images/1_s10.jpg

:lol:

[martyo]

Crack makem want to shootem.

Smokem this instead.

http://www.hightimes.com/420images/1_s10.jpg

:lol:

We can always count on you for sage advice! :pimp:

[SergntMac]

My solution would cure all of the hood clearance issues. Plus, with the turbos and a push rod motor, no one would expect the car to run 9's. :D True. BTW, why not pull that ProCharger off and venture into turbocharging yourself? Hell, you got the rest of the car built to take it give it a try?

[martyo]

True. BTW, why not pull that ProCharger off and venture into turbocharging yourself? Hell, you got the rest of the car built to take it give it a try?

Same issues with Clearance Clarence.

Now the 418 pictured above would fit in my car and the MM I have built up would fit in the Yellow Car.....

[DEFYANT]

Crack makem want to shootem.

Smokem this instead.

http://www.hightimes.com/420images/1_s10.jpg

:lol:
http://www.hardwarestore.com/media/product/281253_front200.jpg (http://www.hardwarestore.com/pop-print/larger-image.asp?product1No=7790)

:cool:

[AzMarauder]

Same issues with Clearance Clarence.

Now the 418 pictured above would fit in my car and the MM I have built up would fit in the Yellow Car.....
The Yellow car fit would be TIGHT methinks.....

[DEFYANT]

The Yellow car fit would be TIGHT methinks.....
It would be tight, but it would work.

[Blackened300a]

My hood is coming off, as I have already stacked nine PHP spacers and will begin the install tomorrow :D
:lol: :lol:

Thats hysterical, You'll need bolts the lenth of a pen! Plus Now have fun Trying to put the EGR on With 9 of those Spacers!!!!

[SergntMac]

:lol: :lol:

Thats hysterical, You'll need bolts the lenth of a pen! Plus Now have fun Trying to put the EGR on With 9 of those Spacers!!!! Jason's a "tunnel ram" kind of guy. Go for it!

[hitchhiker]

Same issues with Clearance Clarence.

Now the 418 pictured above would fit in my car and the MM I have built up would fit in the Yellow Car.....
Roger Checker Over...

:D

[Rider90]

Jason's a "tunnel ram" kind of guy. Go for it!
Idling may be an issue, I think I have to keep it above 2,000 RPM at the stop light :banana2:

[Tinaree]

Our cars need a push rod motor. Ditch the mod motors which take up a ton of space and slip in a 400 plus cu. in. push rod motor, throw on a power adder or two and then you are talking.

Go ahead, just try and disagree with that logic.

Why pushrods? A Vintage 427 SOHC could probably squeeze in there. Or maybe one of those Dove all aluminum versions :burnout:

[Second Wind]

I've got access to a complete motor from a 2004 Lightning truck. In general, what would be involved in transplanting it into my MM? I know the hood clearance is not sufficient. So, how many inches too tall is it? I would probably design a hood scoop for my hood. Any other problems? I can pick up the engine and tranny for under $4000.

Besides the height issues, look closely at the firewall-wiper box area. It's a whole lot tighter than it looks. I am currently putting a DOHC 7 litre in a 2001 CVPI and the firewall is the major problem. I don't want to "butcher" the firewall, although fabricating a new one would be easier than the route I am going. I know it's not a 5.4 or a Marauder I am fooling with, but the problems are similar.

[Rider90]

Besides the height issues, look closely at the firewall-wiper box area. It's a whole lot tighter than it looks. I am currently putting a DOHC 7 litre in a 2001 CVPI and the firewall is the major problem. I don't want to "butcher" the firewall, although fabricating a new one would be easier than the route I am going. I know it's not a 5.4 or a Marauder I am fooling with, but the problems are similar.

7L? is that V-10?

[Second Wind]

7L? is that V-10?

No, actually it is the old DOHC 427. Ford sold the design to Foyt years ago, they usually call it a 7 litre to not confuse it with the SOHC 427. It's an old engine that my Dad left me before he passed away. He died in 1988, so you know how long it's been sitting around. I thought I would put it to good use.

[Tinaree]

I disagree! LOL...

For me, the fun is attacking the inadequacy of the 4.6 DOHC and making it perform, or, break. Sure, stepping back to the pushrod days is an easy fix, but what are your trying to do in the first place? Win? Go fast? Look Pretty? Look pretty and go fast, and win? Hey, do what ever, but enjoy doing it.

I bought this car to have fun, that's my rationale and I'm having a lot of it. When it's not fun, I'll go do something else.

Maybe the MM wouldn't look so bad without a hood?

Guess someone's gotta do it first, so we can all stand around and laugh...
It would look pretty bling on the dirt track....

['03BlkMM]

Here is a link to a pic of a Lightning motor installed in an older fox body. I was looking for some pics that I had seen of it in a newer body Mustang but couldn't find them. You can get an idea of just how tall it is. The Mustang guys that have installed it have said that it wouldn't be street legal due to how much it blocks your view. But if your just planning a track car it would be pretty cool.

http://www.mustangworld.com/ourpics/News/select1716.htm

It would most likely stick up higher on the MM as if I remember correctly these older fox bodies had a good bit of hood clearance.

[rayjay]

Would a 5.0 w/stroker 347 kit fit? Not sure it work well for daily driver :D

[Geo]

That's exactly what I always thought of doing, a 347 stroker. It will fit because the Panther's used to carry the 302 it's based on. The older Panthers also had 351s so a stroker 394 comes to mind. These strokers by the way are in plenty supply now. The 394 may stick out on top though soa 347 will be fine. Want to be street legal (at least at the tailpipe), install a supercharger like how Saleen had to keep the Saleen 351s legal until 2001. The supercharger can act as an airpump. For those Inspection/Maintenance programs that only require the tailpipe test to pass and not a visual that's fine. There are many places that don't have I/M programs so a home address there will be sufficient. Don't have a place in such a place, time to invest in some property.

[BillyGman]

I've heard a number of Ford Lightning owners comment about how tall that 5.4L engine is. Perhaps there needs to be a different motor mount set-up adopted which would allow the engine to be mounted lower into the car (if that's possible). I say that because Ford has managed to mount the 5.4L DOHC engine in the Shelby GT500, and I'd like to think that there's atleast as much room in a Marauder engine compartment as there is in a car of the Mustang platform.


Either way I totally agree with Marty's point. The fact is, that when you're looking to spend some big bucks and are looking for some serious power, I don't see any advantage in going with an overhead cam V8 engine instead of a pushrod engine. The extra revs and and slight increase in airflow rate offered by the DOHC engine with 32 valves is far outweighed by the enormous size of the cylinder heads of those engines. They simply take up too much space. Look at what Chevy has done, and what is currently doing with the 6.0L and 7.0L engines. They're N/A and pushrod equipped and churning out as much HP and torque as our supercharged Marauder engines are. So in light of that, if I had $12,000-$14,000 to spend on my car, Instead of buying a new DOHC engine, I'd much rather put together a big displacement pushrod V8 engine which would also fit nicely underneath the hood without altering it. And for $12,000 I can put together an engine that's easily making 600+ HP to the wheels on pump gas, and N/A at that.

The one advantage that a smaller V8 supercharged engine offers over the big displacement N/A engine is gas mileage. That would only be a consideration in the case of a daily driver though. If you're talking a weekend cruiser,or bracket racer car, then that wouldn't matter too much.

[dwasson]

I've heard a number of Ford Lightning owners comment about how tall that 5.4L engine is. Perhaps there needs to be a different motor mount set-up adopted which would allow the engine to be mounted lower into the car (if that's possible). I say that because Ford has managed to mount the 5.4L DOHC engine in the Shelby GT500, and I'd like to think that there's atleast as much room in a Marauder engine compartment as there is in a car of the Mustang platform.

One way to lower the overall height of the engine would be to switch to dry sump oiling. I think that the GT 40 is dry sump. Is there a kit for it in the secondary market?

[BillyGman]

One way to lower the overall height of the engine would be to switch to dry sump oiling. I think that the GT 40 is dry sump. Is there a kit for it in the secondary market?But the 5.4L equipped GT500 doesn't have a dry sump set-up, so I question if it would really be needed for a Marauder equipped with a 5.4L engine.

[rayjay]

Umh, if they, FoMoCo, can fit a HO 5.4 Lt engine into a Falcon bodied car, ( Pontiac GTO) why can it not be fitted into a Homeland car? Maybe it has something to do with reverse spinning crankshafts....

[BillyGman]

Umh, if they, FoMoCo, can fit a HO 5.4 Lt engine into a Falcon bodied car, ( Pontiac GTO) why can it not be fitted into a Homeland car? Maybe it has something to do with reverse spinning crankshafts....It's gotta be due to different motor mount locations allowing the engines do sit lower in the engine compartment.

[SergntMac]

I've heard a number of Ford Lightning owners comment about how tall that 5.4L engine is. Perhaps there needs to be a different motor mount set-up adopted which would allow the engine to be mounted lower into the car (if that's possible). I say that because Ford has managed to mount the 5.4L DOHC engine in the Shelby GT500, and I'd like to think that there's at least as much room in a Marauder engine compartment as there is in a car of the Mustang platform. As much as I would like to agree with you, Billy, I can't, it's not in the measurement numbers. The Shelby GT 500 supercar must be set aside, it's a car built around an engine, nothing more.

The engine bay of a Mustang is much deeper and wider than that of a Marauder, or, other Panther platform vehicles. The finished product is also much lighter, and with a much shorter wheelbase. This must have something to do with engine options across platforms.

I'm sure, that if a 5.4L swap was possible at all, police CV/PIs would have a 5.4L "highway" option to them much like Chevy offered back in the late '60s with the Impala 427 police car, as well as Dodge/Plymouth in the '80s with a 440 option. Money is money, yes? And I must consider that if FMC can make two cents off any engine-frame combination, it would. And, if it were at all possible, even with some minor upset to the hood, FMC would be selling a 5.4L Panthers to someone, somewhere...Agreed?

Paul's "Street Stalker" has a "full court press" dressed out Corba powertrain fit to the Panther frame in his Marauder, and engine/trans mounts were a critical issue in that build. However, he hasn't had a decent 1320 yet, because things keep breaking on him. Therefore, I think the bottom line on this consideration, is that up to a point things we are doing with our Marauders are working for us. But, once we cross a particular power point, the car is just too damn heavy to continue forward. This was my experience with my '65 and '66 Impala big blocks, and where I learned about heavy cars. Every true and genuine Impala big block, wore a 2V Carter carb out the factory door. They may have had SS emblems, but no more than 385 HP under the hood.

This is probably why FMC doesn't offer a 5.4L anything in Panther based platforms, because it leads to an non-working, and unworkable dead end from breakage, and heavy repair bills.
Either way I totally agree with Marty's point. The fact is, that when you're looking to spend some big bucks and are looking for some serious power, I don't see any advantage in going with an overhead cam V8 engine instead of a pushrod engine. I respectfully disagree.

The extra revs and and slight increase in airflow rate offered by the DOHC engine with 32 valves is far outweighed by the enormous size of the cylinder heads of those engines. They simply take up too much space. Look at what Chevy has done, and what is currently doing with the 6.0L and 7.0L engines. They're N/A and pushrod equipped and churning out as much HP and torque as our supercharged Marauder engines are. So in light of that, if I had $12,000-$14,000 to spend on my car, Instead of buying a new DOHC engine, I'd much rather put together a big displacement pushrod V8 engine which would also fit nicely underneath the hood without altering it. And for $12,000 I can put together an engine that's easily making 600+ HP to the wheels on pump gas, and N/A at that.
Now you're getting to my point. Push rod engines are out, done. It's time to move on.

If you have 12-14K for an engine that puts out spectacular power N/A, and you want to grasp on to modern technology, there's the Ford Racing "cammer" engine to consider. 1) It fits. 2) It's computer controlled, which is factually an advantage. 3) It's modular, which is how we should be thinking today, and 4) It delivers real power in N/A trim, just add a blower of any design and you (again) come to challenge the platform of your choice in the power vs. weight argument. Plop a "cammer" into a Marauder, and you'll never say the word "pushrod" again, but you may be doing some extra welding after the marriage.

With all do respect, Billy, IMHO it's a new day in engine-ering terms, think about that? Move on, or, step aside.

Just my .02C.

[BillyGman]

With all do respect, Billy, IMHO it's a new day in engine-ering terms, think about that? Move on, or, step aside.

Just my .02C.And with all DUE respect to you, tell that to the 6.0L and soon to be 7.0L equipped Vette owners who will never be outdone by a "cammer" engined car. And they are pushrod engines. Even the ugly GTO's have the LS2 pushrod engines that will also NOT be outdone by the "cammer" engine.So it's back to basics, because the old design works better. And it's still right here in modern day performance vehicles. There's never any valid point in change that only offers change w/out real improvement.

[dwasson]

Umh, if they, FoMoCo, can fit a HO 5.4 Lt engine into a Falcon bodied car, ( Pontiac GTO) why can it not be fitted into a Homeland car? Maybe it has something to do with reverse spinning crankshafts....

Engines spin backwards south of the Equator. It's in all the physics books.

[BlackHole]

Well the real differance between the 2 engines is that the 4.6 has 3.55 inch rods vs. the 4.1XX rods on the 5.4. The other thing is the trannys the R100 is almost twice the mass vs the R70W's in the MM so it looks like you might have to rework the floor board to make the R100 fit in the tranny hump in the MM. I was thinking of doing the R100 swap to cover my Trilogy install at 15 PSI of boost. But everything else on the 2 engines are basicly the same. Same width/Same length. Same Crank except the L has a forged one vs. our Cast. Same pistons except the L has 8.5 Comp. vs. our 10.1. Now the deck hight is the only thing thats really diff. between the 2 blocks the 5.4 has about a 1.5 inch more. But we have the DOHC heads which makes our engines look monstorous compared to the Lightning's 5.4 Triton S/C engine.

[BlackHole]

And with all DUE respect to you, tell that to the 6.0L and soon to be 7.0L equipped Vette owners who will never be outdone by a "cammer" engined car. And they are pushrod engines. Even the ugly GTO's have the LS2 pushrod engines that will also NOT be outdone by the "cammer" engine.So it's back to basics, because the old design works better. And it's still right here in modern day performance vehicles. There's never any valid point in change that only offers change w/out real improvement.

Well it looks like GM is the only one sticking to the Pushrod engine.
Ferrari/Porsche/Lamborgini/Jaguar/MB/BMW/Mazda/Honda/ ECT.ECT.ECT have not even the slightest interist to make a pushrod engine now. But the Overhead cam engine is older technology over the pushrod

['03BlkMM]

The engine bay of a Mustang is much deeper and wider than that of a Marauder, or, other Panther platform vehicles.

I'll have to disagree with you here. The '97 GT that I just sold and spent a lot of time under the hood wrencing on had zero space around the SOHC engine. The MM is night and day as far as engine clearance on every side. The 1st time I popped the MM hood I would have sworn I was looking into a truck engine bay with all the space that was there compared to my Mustang.

The '05 doesn't look to be any different. I looked at an '05 GT while my MM was in the shop and the engine bay looked just as cramped as my old '97.

[martyo]

Push rod engines are out, done. It's time to move on.


We'll see. Swing by Bristol next weekend and see what pushrod ower can do. That's where I will be.

[MENINBLK]

And you took what I was saying seriously? Come over and we will smoke crack together and make peace.

When can you get here?

I'll bring the Peace Pipe.
So you prefere Tuscarora, Siouan, or Lumbee ?

[BillyGman]

I'll have to disagree with you here. The '97 GT that I just sold and spent a lot of time under the hood wrencing on had zero space around the SOHC engine. The MM is night and day as far as engine clearance on every side. The 1st time I popped the MM hood I would have sworn I was looking into a truck engine bay with all the space that was there compared to my Mustang.

The '05 doesn't look to be any different. I looked at an '05 GT while my MM was in the shop and the engine bay looked just as cramped as my old '97.That's exactly what I thought. Thanks for your reply, and for confirming that. I don't know how anyone can claim that there's more room under the hood of a Mustang vehicle than there is under the hood of a Marauder, or any panther platform vehicle for that matter.

[Rkammer]

I've enjoyed all the spirited feedback on this thread. The overriding fact, if it is indeed correct, is that I'm unwilling to have a hood scoop of 8 inches or more rising above my hood. Much too much. I realize that the 5.4 motor is a bit taller than the 4.6 but where does 8 inches come from? If it's partially in the intake, can a different intake be used? :confused:

['03BlkMM]

I've enjoyed all the spirited feedback on this thread. The overriding fact, if it is indeed correct, is that I'm unwilling to have a hood scoop of 8 inches or more rising above my hood. Much too much. I realize that the 5.4 motor is a bit taller than the 4.6 but where does 8 inches come from? If it's partially in the intake, can a different intake be used? :confused:
A little bit of it is in the deck height of the motor. The rest is in the intake. Imagine taking your upper intake cover off, sitting an eaton M-112 compressor on there and then installing an intake plate that is taller than ours on top of that.

[Joe Walsh]

Well it looks like GM is the only one sticking to the Pushrod engine.
Ferrari/Porsche/Lamborgini/Jaguar/MB/BMW/Mazda/Honda/ ECT.ECT.ECT have not even the slightest interist to make a pushrod engine now. But the Overhead cam engine is older technology over the pushrod

Don't forget TOYOTA, who makes their own pushrod 350cid V8!

You know.....the one that they offer in all the Tundras?? ;)

OH!......That's right!.... they only made that engine so that they could run in NASCAR competition.... :down: :nono:
(after copying the best design features of the Ford, Chevy & Dodge pushrod V8s)

[SergntMac]

I'll have to disagree with you here. The '97 GT that I just sold and spent a lot of time under the hood wrencing on had zero space around the SOHC engine. The MM is night and day as far as engine clearance on every side. The 1st time I popped the MM hood I would have sworn I was looking into a truck engine bay with all the space that was there compared to my Mustang.

The '05 doesn't look to be any different. I looked at an '05 GT while my MM was in the shop and the engine bay looked just as cramped as my old '97.
That's exactly what I thought. Thanks for your reply, and for confirming that. I don't know how anyone can claim that there's more room under the hood of a Mustang vehicle than there is under the hood of a Marauder, or any panther platform vehicle for that matter. It depends on what space you are measuring. Yes, there is a ton of vacant space in the Panther engine bay, but if it wasn't too small in one, or, two important areas, we wouldn't be reading this thread.

[BillyGman]

The panther cars are wider than the Mustang/Cobra cars are, and they're certainly not any lower to the ground than the Mustangs & Cobras are,and the engine bays as well as the hoods on the panther platform cars are atleast as long if not longer than the Mustangs are, so there's no way that there can be any less room under the hoods of our Marauders than under those of the Mustang platform cars. And chances are there is more room under there than underneath the Mustang hoods.


So my original point stands.....if the Shelby GT500 can house the 5.4L engine, then there must be a way to get one under the hood of a Marauder. The only thing that I can see that would be in question, is the placement of the motor mounts on the new Shelby GT500. Maybe the mounts are placed lower in the cradle, and perhaps even the mounting bosses on the GT500 engine blocks are cast in a higher location than in the rest of the 5.4L engines. And if that's the case, then I think that would be the problem with the Lightning engine as far as fitting it under the Marauder hood, rather than there being any less room under the Marauder hood than there is under the GT500 hood.

However, there's also the possible case of the intake manifold of the Lightning engine being taller, and also the transmission too. if that monster has to be used, then I'm sure there will be serious space issues.

[Geo]

SgntMac says:


Now you're getting to my point. Push rod engines are out, done. It's time to move on.

$14,000 dollars is a lot to spend on a motor no doubt. On these grounds alone I wouldn't retire the possibility and feasibility (financially or otherwise) of installing a genuine pushrod motor (a crate stroker 347 or 394 can't cost all that much to drop in the Marauder's box). There will be alot of personal labour but that's always been part of the (do-it-yourself formula). Heck, I remember being stuck in my buddy's 1981 Buick Regal engine bay (literally as the 350 motor was out) on New Year's Eve at 2AM in the pouring rain in the cold and later having to walk to the gas station with a gerry can in the cold rain with no umbrella only to find that it was closed. I'd pay money to experience that again.



Sgnt Mac says:


I'm sure, that if a 5.4L swap was possible at all, police CV/PIs would have a 5.4L "highway" option to them

BillyGMan says:

[MAD-3R]

With Money, anything is possable.

[BillyGman]

SgntMac says:



$14,000 dollars is a lot to spend on a motor no doubt. On these grounds alone I wouldn't retire the possibility and feasibility (financially or otherwise) of installing a genuine pushrod motor (a crate stroker 347 or 394 can't cost all that much to drop in the Marauder's box). There will be alot of personal labour but that's always been part of the (do-it-yourself formula). Heck, I remember being stuck in my buddy's 1981 Buick Regal engine bay (literally as the 350 motor was out) on New Year's Eve at 2AM in the pouring rain in the cold and later having to walk to the gas station with a gerry can in the cold rain with no umbrella only to find that it was closed. I'd pay money to experience that again.



Sgnt Mac says:



BillyGMan says:Uhmm, what did I say? :D

[Geo]

oops I pressed SUBMIT by mistake; here's the rest:

SgntMac says:


I'm sure, that if a 5.4L swap was possible at all, police CV/PIs would have a 5.4L "highway" option to them

BillyGMan says:


if the Shelby GT500 can house the 5.4L engine, then there must be a way to get one under the hood of a Marauder. The only thing that I can see that would be in question, is the placement of the motor mounts on the new Shelby GT500. Maybe the mounts are placed lower in the cradle, and perhaps even the mounting bosses on the GT500 engine blocks are cast in a higher location than in the rest of the 5.4L engines. And if that's the case, then I think that would be the problem with the Lightning engine as far as fitting it under the Marauder hood, rather than there being any less room under the Marauder hood than there is under the GT500 hood.

Everybody is forgetting something critical. As the Panther's are a full-frame vehicle, they are built on the assembly line the ol' fashioned way; the body drops onto the frame and only after the motor assembly is already in place and so because of this reason, the re-skin of the Ford and Mercury products in 1992 didn't allow for the wider 351 V8's (and similarly the wider 5.4s) to clear the Panther's huge shock towers upon the bodies fall onto the frame.

This does not, however, mean that a 351 type motor (or a 5.4) couldn't be realistically dropped from above into the engine bay (as most hot rodders do). The 351 (really a 352) design should fit easier in my opinion as the 5.4 seems even wider since the Crown Vics had 351s until 1991. Sure some mods might need to be done but the real reason Ford can't do it from the assembly line is the heads are too wide and will collide with the shock towers when the bodies are lowered.

I read the story in the new Mustang book that's out (from the cheif engineers quotes) that the new Mustang was designed with much bigger motors in mind (even bigger than the 5.4s) so what Ford is doing today with the 5.4 is peanuts compared to what they've designed the new Mustang to take. Does this mean a pushrod option in the new Mustang? Oh probably, but not until 2011 or so is my guess after the GT500 buzz wears off.

[Joe Walsh]

Uhmm, what did I say? :D

Is there anyone who has access to a Lightning motor that is out of the truck and can tape measure the height and width of the bad-boy?

Maybe a quick call to KarKraft...they usually have lots of engines in their warehouse.

BTW:
If I didn't LOVE the massive DOHC cam covers and the challenge of making a 4400 LB sedan run like stink on a puny 281 CID V8.....
I'd drop a totally built, aluminum head 392W Stroker ($8,000) and spend the remaining $6,000 on making a custom fuel injection system and wiring harness.

WITHOUT a blower it would make 500 HP all day long and thump out 500 FT LBs of TORQUE....then just add a S/C...heh heh heh... :D

[BillyGman]

I read the story in the new Mustang book that's out (from the cheif engineers quotes) that the new Mustang was designed with much bigger motors in mind (even bigger than the 5.4s) so what Ford is doing today with the 5.4 is peanuts compared to what they've designed the new Mustang to take. Does this mean a pushrod option in the new Mustang? Oh probably, but not until 2011 or so is my guess after the GT500 buzz wears off.Hmmmmm, that's some very interesting info there "GEO". Thanks very much. I'm always intrigued by that type of stuff. I can't help but to feel though that by 2011 these HP wars will be haulted by EPA and governmental regulations of some sort just as they were in the early 70's. Something tells me that there's going to be one seriouis push towards hybrid and Hydrogen cars that will really begin to kick in hard by 2010.:rolleyes:

[BillyGman]

BTW:
If I didn't LOVE the massive DOHC cam covers and the challenge of making a 4400 LB sedan run like stink on a puny 281 CID V8.....
I'd drop a totally built, aluminum head 392W Stroker ($8,000) and spend the remaining $6,000 on making a custom fuel injection system and wiring harness.

WITHOUT a blower it would make 500 HP all day long and thump out 500 FT LBs of TORQUE....then just add a S/C...heh heh heh... :DExactly. that's just one of the possibilies with pushrod engines and $14K that bring you some bigger power. Here's my fantasy $14K engine (I say "fantasy", because I don't have $14K to spend :( ).....

A 509 cubic inch Chevy:

Merlin II iron Tall deck block (these are massive blocks used for racing as well as serious street set-ups, which have really thick cylinder walls, as well as priority main oiling set-ups to keep most of the oil on the main bearings where it belongs while using high volume oil pumps rather than it all being up in the heads which is often the case with the use oif high volume pumps). These blocks have a deck height of 11.6" and can be stroked and bored to a whopping displacement of 642 cubes if you wanted to.

J.E or Ross forged 4.500" pistons (yielding a 10.0:1 comp ratio)....

Steel forged Callies crankshaft (4" stroke)

Oliver 8" forged connecting rods(this would yield a 2.0:1 rod ratio which would be fantastic for power throughout the RPM range on 93 octane pump gas)

Either Airflow Research or Chevy Bowtie big block heads.

Lunati mechanical roller cam (.600"+ lift)

Hooker headers or "Headers by Ed" headers with 2 3/8" primary tubes and 3.5" collectors. Kooks would also be a good choice.

This combo would easily yield 650-700 RWHP N/A. (would such down a lot of gas though.:D but as far as HP per dollar goes, it wouldn't be beat by any DOHC engine. AAAAAHHH, if I had money I'd be dangerous. :banana2:

[theredlineboss]

I won't get involved in the argument of "pushrod vs. cammers", but since ya' guys are talking about dropping big engines in panthers, I thought some of you guys might like this link:
http://www.hotrod.com/featuredvehicles/72538/index.html

My apologies if it is a repost:banned:

Rob

[GreekGod]

As I recall, Roush was putting MPFI 460's in Town Cars in the early 90's! I fell in love with my bro's 1990 (302 V8)Town Car and read about the emissions legal conversion from Roush. Come on you Motor City boys-educate us! Someone on this site must know about/drive one of those. The only pushrod motor our boats really need is an MPFI 514! It would make you fergit all 'bout Chevys, Hemi's, Modmotors, V10's, etc.
I won't get involved in the argument of "pushrod vs. cammers", but since ya' guys are talking about dropping big engines in panthers, I thought some of you guys might like this link:
http://www.hotrod.com/featuredvehicles/72538/index.html

My apologies if it is a repost:banned:

Rob

['03BlkMM]

It depends on what space you are measuring. Yes, there is a ton of vacant space in the Panther engine bay, but if it wasn't too small in one, or, two important areas, we wouldn't be reading this thread.
Yes your right. Its deficient in hood to blower clearance when the Lightning motor is installed, just like the stang!

[cyclone03]

You know...............
Being the lightning engine is a 2 valve I wonder if it WOULD clear the A/C box and the wiper motor?Hum....

The killer for the 4 valve Navigator 5.4 is the massive cam covers the 2 valve are tiny by comparison so maybe it would fit in the bay,no way under the hood.

Of course if the 5.4 fits (2 valve) then the V10 would go to,same width just longer.

It was asked why the L Engine is so tall,the super charger and charge air cooler is mounted above the intake mounts and the blower assy' doesn't set in the "V" like on the cobra(and the Trilogy Marauders).
So that baby is tall.

The new Shelby and "GT" has the blower/charge cooler mounted in the "V",lowering everything 6" or so.

[Rider90]

You know...............
Being the lightning engine is a 2 valve I wonder if it WOULD clear the A/C box and the wiper motor?Hum....

The killer for the 4 valve Navigator 5.4 is the massive cam covers the 2 valve are tiny by comparison so maybe it would fit in the bay,no way under the hood.

Of course if the 5.4 fits (2 valve) then the V10 would go to,same width just longer.

It was asked why the L Engine is so tall,the super charger and charge air cooler is mounted above the intake mounts and the blower assy' doesn't set in the "V" like on the cobra(and the Trilogy Marauders).
So that baby is tall.

The new Shelby and "GT" has the blower/charge cooler mounted in the "V",lowering everything 6" or so.
There has been atleast one V10 swap into a Vic, and atleast one V10 swap into a Grand Marquis. Just FYI

[cyclone03]

There has been atleast one V10 swap into a Vic, and atleast one V10 swap into a Grand Marquis. Just FYI

Yea I knew that...

[BigCars4Ever]

I've got access to a complete motor from a 2004 Lightning truck. In general, what would be involved in transplanting it into my MM? I know the hood clearance is not sufficient. So, how many inches too tall is it? I would probably design a hood scoop for my hood. Any other problems? I can pick up the engine and tranny for under $4000.
If your getting this set up from a yard then I'm sure they have at least one wrecked 03 CVPI around. See if they would drop the motor into one just to see what kind of clearance issues there would really be. No bolts or wiring. Just hook it to the fork lift and dip it into the engine bay.

[martyo]

Just hook it to the fork lift and dip it into the engine bay.


There's a joke in there somewhere....

[00 Aggie]

Why not buy the L engine, sell it (I think with the trans they are worth more than $4k) and buy an 03 Cobra engine? I'm not sure about clearance, it may be a little high.

[Tinaree]

There is a lot of speculation and some downright misleading info in this thread.

A 5.4L DOHC will fit in an SN95 mustang frame without too much hassle. The only real challenge is the brake cylinder, which has to be re-engineered. Aside from various hoses and pipes and other odds and ends, it leaves about a half inch between the strut towers. A V10 SOHC requires some firewall mods, but it too will fit. I have seen them both.

The Panther is bigger all around. There is no limiting critical area, it is a matter of how all the accessories are tucked in there, especially the AC evaporator and the master cylinder. These are things that a serious gearhead is either removing or would have no trouble re-routing.

From memory, the dimensions, roughly compared, are thus:

Mustang bay width 32" max
Panther bay width 42" max

Mustang height (ground to top of valve cover) 31"
Panther 31 1/2"

Mustang front engine clearance 9"
Panther 6" (but has another 4" of fan over mustang)

Mustang rear engine to firewall 1"
Panther 5"

Mustang engine centerline offset 2" (closer to passenger side)
Panther 0" (dead center).

So you see, there is a ton of room for "get-crazy" mods. On the other hand, you can bore and stroke that marauder engine to 330 cubic inches and the outside package is as stock as you want to make it. No need for a big heavy 5.4 truck engine when you can get the same thing from the little MM engine.

[Tinaree]

BTW, regarding OHC vs pushrod, and 4V vs 3V vs 2V, the pushrod engine is superior for power and less parasitic loss.

[GreekGod]

My understanding is < the ('03 & up, at least) Panther engines go in & come out from the bottom, similar to a front wheel drive vehicle.
If your getting this set up from a yard then I'm sure they have at least one wrecked 03 CVPI around. See if they would drop the motor into one just to see what kind of clearance issues there would really be. No bolts or wiring. Just hook it to the fork lift and dip it into the engine bay.

[SergntMac]

There is a lot of speculation and some downright misleading info in this thread. From memory, the dimensions, roughly compared, are thus:

Mustang bay width 32" max
Panther bay width 42" max

Mustang height (ground to top of valve cover) 31"
Panther 31 1/2"

Mustang front engine clearance 9"
Panther 6" (but has another 4" of fan over mustang)

Mustang rear engine to firewall 1"
Panther 5"

Mustang engine centerline offset 2" (closer to passenger side)
Panther 0" (dead center). Okay, folks, next time you pop the hood to check your oil, bring a tape measure. My MM may be different that y'all's, but my measurement came out different.

From my garage floor to the highest point on the engine, the altenator bracket, 36"

From the center of the altenator pulley, straight across to the inside of the passenger fender, 30.5"

From the center of the altenator pulley, straight across to the inside of the driver's fender, 31.5"

Is the altenator in the center of the engine? Looks that way, but I don't know for sure, so, let me find some other places to measure.

From the top edge of the passenger side coil cover, above cylinder #1, to the inside edge of the passenger fender, 21"

From the top edge of the driver side coil cover above cylinder #5, to the inside of the driver side fender, 22"

There's probably a few more places I could measure, but I'm not going to bother. IMHO, this engine is 1" offset towards the passenger side, and it's tilted down in the rear as well. There may be 5" of clearance between the firewall and the rear of the valve covers, but there's a lot of firewall and cowl hanging over it, and a lot more stuff in between. There's also a lot of stuff sticking up from in between the top line of the valve covers and the inside of the hood. Apply a bit of logic here too, haven't some of us complained about a particular air induction kit rubbing on the hood liner?

Safe to say that there isn't much room to play with in certain areas of the engine bay, despite how roomy it appears. IMHO, it won't fit. Need more logic? Again, money. If a 5.4L (2 or 4V) engine could fit in this new Panther frame, Ford would have done so just to offer that to the police as a highway car (and for more money). However, due to the specs they would have to change to make it fit, it isn't cost effective.

I agree that an innovative custom builder could perform a miracle, but for the average joe who just wants to plop in a larger displacement replacement, it ain't happening.

[GreekGod]

Superior? What would the rotational friction difference (parasitic loss) be in terms of horsepower (or electric current) when comparing equal displacement OHC vs. pushrod gasoline engines?
BTW, regarding OHC vs pushrod, and 4V vs 3V vs 2V, the pushrod engine is superior for power and less parasitic loss.

[Tinaree]

Superior? What would the rotational friction difference (parasitic loss) be in terms of horsepower (or electric current) when comparing equal displacement OHC vs. pushrod gasoline engines?
4 cams vs 1, and in the case of 4V vs 2V, twice as many valvesprings (I know that is a little off the subject).

More rotating weight also, and heavier heads (again 4V vs 2V).

There was a good article linked recently on LS1.com by an engineer at GM. He explained how they had to fight to keep the vette from going to smaller displacement OHC, and why it was better (in that case) to stick with pushrods. Some of the general info was very applicable across the board. Basically, sticking with 2 large valves on pushrods was the best option from a mechanical standpoint.

[Tinaree]

Okay, folks, next time you pop the hood to check your oil, bring a tape measure. My MM may be different that y'all's, but my measurement came out different.

From my garage floor to the highest point on the engine, the altenator bracket, 36"

From the center of the altenator pulley, straight across to the inside of the passenger fender, 30.5"

From the center of the altenator pulley, straight across to the inside of the driver's fender, 31.5"

Is the altenator in the center of the engine? Looks that way, but I don't know for sure, so, let me find some other places to measure.

From the top edge of the passenger side coil cover, above cylinder #1, to the inside edge of the passenger fender, 21"

From the top edge of the driver side coil cover above cylinder #5, to the inside of the driver side fender, 22"

There's probably a few more places I could measure, but I'm not going to bother. IMHO, this engine is 1" offset towards the passenger side, and it's tilted down in the rear as well. There may be 5" of clearance between the firewall and the rear of the valve covers, but there's a lot of firewall and cowl hanging over it, and a lot more stuff in between. There's also a lot of stuff sticking up from in between the top line of the valve covers and the inside of the hood. Apply a bit of logic here too, haven't some of us complained about a particular air induction kit rubbing on the hood liner?

Safe to say that there isn't much room to play with in certain areas of the engine bay, despite how roomy it appears. IMHO, it won't fit. Need more logic? Again, money. If a 5.4L (2 or 4V) engine could fit in this new Panther frame, Ford would have done so just to offer that to the police as a highway car (and for more money). However, due to the specs they would have to change to make it fit, it isn't cost effective.

I agree that an innovative custom builder could perform a miracle, but for the average joe who just wants to plop in a larger displacement replacement, it ain't happening.
Your original statement was that the mustang is wider and deeper. It is neither. And I have assisted with a 5.4 DOHC implant into a mustang, which is wider than a 5.4 SOHC. I obviously wasn't clear on my measuring points, but I used points that I know are clearance issues. I'll get my list and make it more clear. I did not bother with accessories and intake points, these are irrelavent.

[cyclone03]

Your original statement was that the mustang is wider and deeper. It is neither. And I have assisted with a 5.4 DOHC implant into a mustang, which is wider than a 5.4 SOHC. I obviously wasn't clear on my measuring points, but I used points that I know are clearance issues. I'll get my list and make it more clear. I did not bother with accessories and intake points, these are irrelavent.


If we are doing this just for a racer then no problem just drop in the 5.4 and go racing.


BUT if you wish to have a streeter,that can safley operate in the rain with the stock A/C freezing your peacons off you have to work around the TWO obsticles to installing a 5.4 DOHC,5.4 SOHC (lightning) and the Cobra 4.6 (Supercharged).Those two things are the A/C box on the pasenger side and the windshield wiper motor and linkages on the firewall,slightly offset to the left.

To install the Cobra setup Pauls HP moved the engine FORWARD about 1 1/2" and down by reworking the crossmember.
Depending on how deep your pockets are or how well stocked your garage is it will not be any problem at all.But you aint going to bolt it in and go in a weekend with hand tools.

I asked Steve Babcock why no 5.4 in the Marauder and he told me the above were the 2 biggest reasons,add the emissions resert. and all three totaled a pile of Ford $$$ for a Limeted Production Car it wasn't going to happen.

[Rkammer]

There is a lot of speculation and some downright misleading info in this thread.

A 5.4L DOHC will fit in an SN95 mustang frame without too much hassle. The only real challenge is the brake cylinder, which has to be re-engineered. Aside from various hoses and pipes and other odds and ends, it leaves about a half inch between the strut towers. A V10 SOHC requires some firewall mods, but it too will fit. I have seen them both.

The Panther is bigger all around. There is no limiting critical area, it is a matter of how all the accessories are tucked in there, especially the AC evaporator and the master cylinder. These are things that a serious gearhead is either removing or would have no trouble re-routing.

From memory, the dimensions, roughly compared, are thus:

Mustang bay width 32" max
Panther bay width 42" max

Mustang height (ground to top of valve cover) 31"
Panther 31 1/2"

Mustang front engine clearance 9"
Panther 6" (but has another 4" of fan over mustang)

Mustang rear engine to firewall 1"
Panther 5"

Mustang engine centerline offset 2" (closer to passenger side)
Panther 0" (dead center).

So you see, there is a ton of room for "get-crazy" mods. On the other hand, you can bore and stroke that marauder engine to 330 cubic inches and the outside package is as stock as you want to make it. No need for a big heavy 5.4 truck engine when you can get the same thing from the little MM engine.
Now, that's more like it! I'd much rather remove the engine, bore and stroke it, and put it back in. The extra 49 cubic inches should produce at least 50+ more HP. I don't know if I'd want to pull the engine just for 50 more horses but it would be great to do it if a rebuild was required any way. Then, the supercharger kit would probably get this little motor up over 500 horses. Now, that's what I'm talking about. :banana2:

[SergntMac]

Thank you, Lance, strikingly similar to my reply in post #2, Steve Babcock explained it that way to me too, and I think he's explained it so much, he's Ford blue in the face.

Your original statement was that the mustang is wider and deeper. It is neither. And I have assisted with a 5.4 DOHC implant into a mustang, which is wider than a 5.4 SOHC. I obviously wasn't clear on my measuring points, but I used points that I know are clearance issues. I'll get my list and make it more clear. I did not bother with accessories and intake points, these are irrelavent. You logic escapes me, seems you are trying to prove me wrong, rather than help the man with his question. Fine, I'm wrong, now back to the topic, please?

I based my position of "wider and deeper" on several observations, however actual measuring remains absent. The Cobra 4.6, as it comes in '03-'04 trim, fits in the Mustang engine bay. It fits, due in part, to the Cobra hood, which is nicely done IMHO. However, when the hood is closed, the hood is part of the engine bay, and obviously, if the 4.6L DOHC Eaton supercharged engine fits, the engine bay is indeed deeper. Moreover, when you state that you have assisted in a 5.4 DOHC engine swap, which you say is wider than a SOHC, the engine bay of a Mustang is indeed wider than a Marauder, yes? Otherwise, your swap would not have worked (presuming that it did).

Furthermore, the question posed is rather clear. The gentleman has an opportunity to transplant a 5.4 into a Marauder, will it work? Starting with my post, and several times after that now, the correct answer has been stated, and from credible resources that answer is no. OTOH, money can make anything fit anywhere, but I respected that Rkammer has his limitation in his willingness to chop up his car. When you say that accessories and intake are irrelevant, I really don't have anything more to say about this.

[rdvldog1]

Guys,Guys,GUYS,:argue:
First, I want to say that this is my first few days reading all of the posts that have been set up on this website. I am currently waiting on the end of the week to draw near, in order for me to pick up my, new to me, 03 MM. That having been said, I have a few points to add to this debate.

If you read Muscle Mustangs and Fast Fords (I know its a mag, but bear with me) they installed a 5.4 SOHC truck motor in a GT about a year ago. That install utilized a custom intake from Reichard Racing made for a hi-po 4.6 car. They also used mating plates similar to the new IMRC plates running on the new 05 cars, to mate the GT intake to the 5.4 heads. All of this is not to terribly expensive when you put it into the context of a real life engine swap upgrade.

Can the 5.4 be installed in the MM with fairly inexpensive results.....yes.

Will this gentleman be able to do it in a timely manner....maybe.

The real question for him is how much time does he want to spend doing this work? The parts are out there, it will just take a little time to put them all together.

I would also suggest running with some sort of aftermarket engine management system, such as the ever popular FAST EFI system. It is fairly intuitive to use, and it is sold with a Ford Modular application harness that you will be able to easily adapt to the 5.4. You would be able to reuse the stock injectors, rails and all of your frontend accessories with this system. You will also be able to still run the MM auto tranny, and the O2 sensors.

Now mentioning O2s, you will have a little bit of a clearance issue with the exhaust manifold to h-pipe clearance, but it is nothing that chopping out 1-2 inches of pipes and re-welding wont solve.

I could spend about two more hours coming up with all the little tiny details for the install, but if you are really serious about this, and you can get your hands on the powerplant, then do what alot of us do in this situation and gather up some of your more mechanically inclined bros, and yank the stock motor and float the new 5.4 into the engine bay and see for yourself what are going to be the real issues. Aint nothing to it but to do it.:banana2:

Worse comes to worse, you reinstall the old motor, and ebay the one you just figured out wont work. You may even make enough money off of it to purchase a stroker kit for your stock motor.

Good Luck and God Speed...............stop typing and start wrenching.:D

[GreekGod]

Dude, dude, dude, you gotta read #74 & #76 posts! If Steve Babcock said the A/C 'box' (plenum?) and the windshield wiper system won't clear the (taller deck-height) 5.4, then you gotta git out a big hammer and have at it! Now that is a REAL inexpensive procedure but not gonna happen! No heater/air conditioning and no wipers? Steve Babcock was some kinda (Ford) engineer that knew everything about the MM's.
Guys,Guys,GUYS,:argue:
First, I want to say that this is my first few days reading all of the posts that have been set up on this website. I am currently waiting on the end of the week to draw near, in order for me to pick up my, new to me, 03 MM. That having been said, I have a few points to add to this debate.

If you read Muscle Mustangs and Fast Fords (I know its a mag, but bear with me) they installed a 5.4 SOHC truck motor in a GT about a year ago. That install utilized a custom intake from Reichard Racing made for a hi-po 4.6 car. They also used mating plates similar to the new IMRC plates running on the new 05 cars, to mate the GT intake to the 5.4 heads. All of this is not to terribly expensive when you put it into the context of a real life engine swap upgrade.

Can the 5.4 be installed in the MM with fairly inexpensive results.....yes.

Will this gentleman be able to do it in a timely manner....maybe.

The real question for him is how much time does he want to spend doing this work? The parts are out there, it will just take a little time to put them all together.

I would also suggest running with some sort of aftermarket engine management system, such as the ever popular FAST EFI system. It is fairly intuitive to use, and it is sold with a Ford Modular application harness that you will be able to easily adapt to the 5.4. You would be able to reuse the stock injectors, rails and all of your frontend accessories with this system. You will also be able to still run the MM auto tranny, and the O2 sensors.

Now mentioning O2s, you will have a little bit of a clearance issue with the exhaust manifold to h-pipe clearance, but it is nothing that chopping out 1-2 inches of pipes and re-welding wont solve.

I could spend about two more hours coming up with all the little tiny details for the install, but if you are really serious about this, and you can get your hands on the powerplant, then do what alot of us do in this situation and gather up some of your more mechanically inclined bros, and yank the stock motor and float the new 5.4 into the engine bay and see for yourself what are going to be the real issues. Aint nothing to it but to do it.:banana2:

Worse comes to worse, you reinstall the old motor, and ebay the one you just figured out wont work. You may even make enough money off of it to purchase a stroker kit for your stock motor.

Good Luck and God Speed...............stop typing and start wrenching.:D

[jgc61sr2002]

rdvldog1 - Welcome aboard. :welcome:

[SergntMac]

Can the 5.4 be installed in the MM with fairly inexpensive results.....yes. Congrats on your aquisition, welcome to the club.

When you get your own MM at the end of the week, spend a few minutes in study of the firewall, cowl, heater and A/C box, and how it fits with the 4.6L DOHC. Study it real hard, and keep in mind that the engine had to be installed "crooked" (sorry, I'm lacking a better word), and find me the room for the extra 1.5" deck clearance a 5.4 requires. I'll let you push things around a bit, run some hoses to the left rather than the right, but no cutting, banging, welding, relocation, substitution, or, disconnections. This is only to show fairness to the opening question, "will it fit", deal?

Sure, anything can fit anywhere with the right hammer, torch and duct tape. But absent that, the answer is still no, it won't fit.

BTW, just this evening, I had a chance to pour over a '05 CV with the 4.6L 2V SOHC engine. I was amazed at the room between the firewall and heater box with a 2V engine, I saw things about the firewall I never saw before. I now understand how some of you imaginem, or, could be fooled into believing in an imaginary fit. But, the difference between the 4.6L and the 5.4L is not in head dimensions, it's the same head. The difference is in the block, an additional 1.5 inches that moves in a "V" direction, not just or only horizontal or vertical, to which there are several obstacles.

I'm sure MM&FF did a fine job with an engine swap in a Mustang, but a Mustang engine bay has more elbow room in these critical areas. I could see a whole extra inch of room on this '05 CV, between the heater-A/C box and the 2V head, but what's there is still not enough for a 5.4 transplant into the Marauder bay, hood issues set aside.

Dude, dude, dude, you gotta read #74 & #76 posts! If Steve Babcock said the A/C 'box' (plenum?) and the windshield wiper system won't clear the (taller deck-height) 5.4, then you gotta git out a big hammer and have at it! Now that is a REAL inexpensive procedure but not gonna happen! No heater/air conditioning and no wipers? Steve Babcock was some kinda (Ford) engineer that knew everything about the MM's. For lack of a better description, Steve Babcock is the "father" of the MM. As he explains it, it was a concept car he lusted over for many years, until L.M finally approved limited production He's not just one engineer, but the Program Manager who brought the MM into our hearts. He knows the car, because his fingerprints are on every square inch of it, from blueprints, to his signature on my passenger side sun visor. Hang with us, you'll meet him someday, and never forget your moment with the man.

[cyclone03]

Thank you, Lance, strikingly similar to my reply in post #2, Steve Babcock explained it that way to me too, and I think he's explained it so much, he's Ford blue in the face.
.


But your response was so short and to the point that I didn't even notice it. :D


But bact to the "L" engine in a Marauder...
Logan is right that engine IS ugly.

With our limited firewall clearence the Supercharger may also be a problem.

These are reasons why the Cobra supercharger is not a bolt in for us either,the Eaton sits too far back on the intake.If Im not mistaken the Trilogy set up moves the SC forward.

It would be a fun swap but I fear the dollar investment would be great.

Truth be told I wish somebody would just take thier car and do it and shut us all up!But it wont be me for several thousand miles.

[BlackHole]

Truth be told I wish somebody would just take thier car and do it and shut us all up!But it wont be me for several thousand miles.

And it well not be me either due to I like both my vehicles the way they are.

[rdvldog1]

Sorry if I ruffled any feathers....

I will get on the whole observation of the car thing as soon as I take delivery. I have several mod projects already planned for the car. One is a 6spd conversion, and the other is kenne bell supercharging. I know this stuff is a little difficult, but its a car. It can be done. I am just trying to inspire this guys hot rod fantasies, because after all, all the really cool stuff happens because a couple of guys stand around one day and have the balls to turn there "what if" conversations into reality.

I enjoy our conversations, it keeps us all honest. Thanks.

Sgt D.A. Redfield
USMC

[martyo]

Sorry if I ruffled any feathers....

I will get on the whole observation of the car thing as soon as I take delivery. I have several mod projects already planned for the car. One is a 6spd conversion, and the other is kenne bell supercharging. I know this stuff is a little difficult, but its a car. It can be done. I am just trying to inspire this guys hot rod fantasies, because after all, all the really cool stuff happens because a couple of guys stand around one day and have the balls to turn there "what if" conversations into reality.

I enjoy our conversations, it keeps us all honest. Thanks.

Sgt D.A. Redfield
USMC

I know a guy with a Kenne Bell on his Marauder....

[SergntMac]

I know a guy with a Kenne Bell on his Marauder....
And I know a guy with a six speed...

Sorry if I ruffled any feathers...
Don't fret over this, you'll figure it out soon enough. It's better to read from the top of the thread than just the last post. Best wishes with your project.

[AzMarauder]

And I know a guy with a six speed...

Don't fret over this, you'll figure it out soon enough. It's better to read from the top of the thread than just the last post. Best wishes with your project.I don't know anyone of them.....

But I know a guy with a Kenne Bell AND a six speed ....

[ELKO1]

I wonder if a 427 FE would fit in to a marauder

[GreekGod]

An all aluminum FE (Shelby block, Edelbrock heads with stage2 porting from Keith Craft) would weigh less and take up less space than a 4.6 OR a 460. A dual plane on top for the street or a 2x4 Tunnel Wedge for 8,000 rpm shifting in the 1/4 mile would really make some jaws drop. Heck, I think the SOHC 427 would also drop right in, possibly the ultimate swap for a '03-'04 MM. Genesis says their aluminum block can displace up to 510 cu. in. and their iron block is 230 lbs. which is 30 lbs. more than stock but still 110 lbs. lighter than the stock Ford 460 cu. in. block. Someone do it, please! I would but I'm too busy right now.
I wonder if a 427 FE would fit in to a marauder

[ELKO1]

I might try it if i don't get a 64 Marauder or Galaxie I'm looking at. I didn't Know there was an aluminum Block 427, I'll bet the 03-04 MM will scream with that set up.

[GreekGod]

Far as I know Shelby, Genesis, and DOVE all make FE's. The Shelby design is proven (6 bolt mains!), Genesis looks good (they are in the Ford Racing catalog and the iron block is NHRA approved) and DOVE has been questionable.
I might try it if i don't get a 64 Marauder or Galaxie I'm looking at. I didn't Know there was an aluminum Block 427, I'll bet the 03-04 MM will scream with that set up.

[SergntMac]

I know this isn't an answer to the initial question, but most of the posts here are likewise "left of center" on that.

If you wonder about what can fit under a Marauder hood, wonder about this?

Here's a brand new 4.6L DOHC Marauder crate engine...

http://www.mercurymarauder.net/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=7526&cat=500&page=1

Here's a brand new 5.4L Navigator crate engine...
http://www.mercurymarauder.net/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=7527&cat=500&page=1

Nevermind the difference in height, just go look at your MM engine bay one more time, and look back here? I can see the difference in width, can you?

Just wondering, carry on, gentlemen...

[Agent M79]

What's with the debate anyway? A 5.4L Marauder is on the way, right after the Ford Blackhawk.

It has to be true. Why?

#1) I read it.
#2) It's on the Internet.
#C) Motor Trend.

Check it out right HERE (http://motortrend.com/future/concepts/112_0101blackhawk/). Pay particular attention to the 2nd paragraph.

[Marauderman]

What's with the debate anyway? A 5.4L Marauder is on the way, right after the Ford Blackhawk.

It has to be true. Why?

#1) I read it.
#2) It's on the Internet.
#C) Motor Trend.

Check it out right HERE (http://motortrend.com/future/concepts/112_0101blackhawk/). Pay particular attention to the 2nd paragraph.
Dave--Thats a JAn 2001 article--where the BLackhawk went south and the MM came alive instead --and is now gone as we know----...

[Agent M79]

Dave--Thats a JAn 2001 article--where the BLackhawk went south and the MM came alive instead --and is now gone as we know----...Oh come on, Marauderman. Its on the Internet for cryin' out loud. That makes it true.

I can't hear you NA NA NA 5.4L Marauder! :neener: NA NA NA

[Petrograde]

Strangely, the Crown Vic Blackhawk will compete with Ford's own Mercury Grand Marquis Marauder, a 5.4L V-8-equipped big sedan originally scheduled for production this year. The Marauder will now appear in showrooms after the Blackhawk debuts.

:rofl: apparently this was before they measured to deck height. :P

[FordNut]

Speaking of unusual engine combos, I saw a Triton V-10 in a Mustang at the Bristol FFW swap meet today. Wasn't quite finished, but it fit and was driveable.

[Marauderman]

Oh come on, Marauderman. Its on the Internet for cryin' out loud. That makes it true.

I can't hear you NA NA NA 5.4L Marauder! :neener: NA NA NA
come to think of it--mine may be a 5.4, 6.4, 7.4, heck..maybe even an 8.4 by now--I better go stop by the shop and find out------

[RCSignals]

Besides the height issues, look closely at the firewall-wiper box area. It's a whole lot tighter than it looks. I am currently putting a DOHC 7 litre in a 2001 CVPI and the firewall is the major problem. I don't want to "butcher" the firewall, although fabricating a new one would be easier than the route I am going. I know it's not a 5.4 or a Marauder I am fooling with, but the problems are similar.

your 2001 CVPI wiper area will have even more issues than the 2003/2004's .

[Tinaree]

You logic escapes me, seems you are trying to prove me wrong, rather than help the man with his question. Fine, I'm wrong, now back to the topic, please?

I based my position of "wider and deeper" on several observations, however actual measuring remains absent. The Cobra 4.6, as it comes in '03-'04 trim, fits in the Mustang engine bay. It fits, due in part, to the Cobra hood, which is nicely done IMHO. However, when the hood is closed, the hood is part of the engine bay, and obviously, if the 4.6L DOHC Eaton supercharged engine fits, the engine bay is indeed deeper. Moreover, when you state that you have assisted in a 5.4 DOHC engine swap, which you say is wider than a SOHC, the engine bay of a Mustang is indeed wider than a Marauder, yes? Otherwise, your swap would not have worked (presuming that it did).

Furthermore, the question posed is rather clear. The gentleman has an opportunity to transplant a 5.4 into a Marauder, will it work? Starting with my post, and several times after that now, the correct answer has been stated, and from credible resources that answer is no. OTOH, money can make anything fit anywhere, but I respected that Rkammer has his limitation in his willingness to chop up his car. When you say that accessories and intake are irrelevant, I really don't have anything more to say about this.
First, yes the 5.4 DOHC is wider, yet it still fits in a Mustang. The Marauder is approx 8"-10" wider between the towers than the mustang, which is where the tightest clearance of that swap is. The 5.4 SOHC isn't as wide due to the smaller heads, so it should fit even easier. The stumbling block that I see is the exhaust. This addresses the original question quite well. And the answer to the poster's question is obviously yes.

Second, accessories are quite irrelavent as they can be moved/replaced/clearanced or even worked around. In fact, you will be faced with having new accessory arrangements anyway, and someone contemplating this would, I assume, understand that it isn't the same. In the case of the hood, an aftermarket job or a custom garage fab will get it, although the obvious drawback would be the loss of the stock look in most cases. I don't think anyone contemplating such a swap would be too concerned about that, and if so they would have noted my third point:

Three, you can bore and stroke the 4.6 and get a 5.3L in the same size package as the 4.6, with the same accouterments, and less weight the 5.4. The DOHC heads will buy you a little more, but the stock 5.4 crank and block does not let you realize the rpm potential of those heads. Those who go this route (building up their 4.6 into a 5.3) will probably want to go with a new oiling system, they may want to do an AC delete or they may not, new intake, headers of some kind, who knows. It would be cheaper to go with a 5.4 than a 5.3 for sure, so "throwing money at the problem" does not necessarily impede a 5.4 swap into a marauder.

[Tinaree]

Now, that's more like it! I'd much rather remove the engine, bore and stroke it, and put it back in. The extra 49 cubic inches should produce at least 50+ more HP. I don't know if I'd want to pull the engine just for 50 more horses but it would be great to do it if a rebuild was required any way. Then, the supercharger kit would probably get this little motor up over 500 horses. Now, that's what I'm talking about. :banana2:
And don't forget, you will have the opportunity to go with a forged bottom end, choose your compression ratio and rings, and set the valvetrain up for 8000 rpm.

You should easily see 600-650 rwhp if done with some thought and care, and on pump gas too.

[Tinaree]

BTW,

I too am sorry to ruffle feathers. I have put these things side-by-side and I wanted to point out that what is considered "expensively impossible" is really more like "inexpensively possible". These threads are great for kicking around things that you might have to deal with in a hypothetical sense.

RE: the firewall issues. The AC box, assuming you were keeping the AC, would probably need re-engineering or outright replacing, but can be done easily enough. That would take some fab skills for sure though, and knowledge of and access to alternatives. The more difficult problem with the marauder is the use of the vacuum controlled brake booster. It would need replacement with either a powered booster (say a late 90s mustang) or manual master cylinder, and the mechanical linkage is a bear. You can get really trick and run a primary hydraulic clutch line from a mitsubishi to a fender mounted master cylinder for room, as one example. I personally wouldn't want manual brakes on a street marauder.

[GreekGod]

new from Kar Krafthttp://www.karkraft.com/FRONT_LH1.jpg

[GreekGod]

HERE'S ANOTHER VIEWhttp://www.karkraft.com/FRONT_RH_CLOSE.jpg

[FordNut]

I'd like to see somebody just do it.

We know anything is possible but it seems to me just a lot of talk, talk, talk until somebody decides to step up and prove it.

[Rider90]

I'd like to see somebody just do it.

We know anything is possible but it seems to me just a lot of talk, talk, talk until somebody decides to step up and prove it.
I agree! Who wants to sponsor me?? :D

[SergntMac]

I too am sorry to ruffle feathers. I have put these things side-by-side and I wanted to point out that what is considered "expensively impossible" is really more like "inexpensively possible". My feathers are fine, dude, but your are still wrong, and I have clearly stated exactly why you are wrong.

A 5.4L will not fit in a '03, or, later Marauder/Panther engine bay without major surgery, surgery most Marauder owners do not wish to attempt. The blocks have different measurements, and though they are both "modular" and share other components, deck height is not one of the shared traits.

Deck height is where the 5.4L is "taller" than the 4.6L. The 5.4L has a deck height of 10.078" and the 4.6L has a deck height of 8.925". This difference is a very critical measurement, given the clearance available from the passenger side firewall, heater/AC box and wiper assembly. The 5.4L will not fit, period, intakes and accessories aside. No custom hoods, no relocation/fabrication/loss of heater-A/C-wiper system, just drop it in place? No. Is it an even swap, much like a Chevy 350 replacing a 283? Much like a 440 Mopar replacing a 383? No. Why are you dogging this?

Did you get your Marauder yet?

[Rider90]

I don't have much to contribute to this thread, but heck, since I've seen the rubbing from a Trilogy pulley and rubbing from a JLT Intake - I don't think we can drop in a 5.4L and say "Presto!" without doing some serious changes as stated by SergntMac. I've been under my hood a few times, I do all my work and oil changes, and it's real tight. In fact that A/C box is closer than I'm comfortable with.

I did not say it couldn't be done though.

[SergntMac]

I agree! Who wants to sponsor me?? :D Watch your step now, the last time someone used that invitation, some pizz-poor offers were made, and others came to fashion the invite as a lie. Beware what you wish for, it may come true.

[Tinaree]

My feathers are fine, dude, but your are still wrong, and I have clearly stated exactly why you are wrong.

A 5.4L will not fit in a '03, or, later Marauder/Panther engine bay without major surgery, surgery most Marauder owners do not wish to attempt. The blocks have different measurements, and though they are both "modular" and share other components, deck height is not one of the shared traits.

Deck height is where the 5.4L is "taller" than the 4.6L. The 5.4L has a deck height of 10.078" and the 4.6L has a deck height of 8.925". This difference is a very critical measurement, given the clearance available from the passenger side firewall, heater/AC box and wiper assembly. The 5.4L will not fit, period, intakes and accessories aside. No custom hoods, no relocation/fabrication/loss of heater-A/C-wiper system, just drop it in place? No. Is it an even swap, much like a Chevy 350 replacing a 283? Much like a 440 Mopar replacing a 383? No. Why are you dogging this?

Did you get your Marauder yet?
Hahaha! You are the one who keeps typing out the misinformation. You sound like a little kid whose ego is bruised from being called out on a lie.
Grow up, drama queen, and quit moving the goalposts. You obviously don't know what you are talking about. I have been there, done that. Yes, the deck height is taller, and yes, as you pointed out, the 90* angle makes it wider too. And yes, a 5.4 DOHC is even wider because the widest part is the top of the valve covers. And yes, that engine fits right in between the mustang strut towers, with about a half inch to spare each side. And yes, there is about 8" - 10" more room in the marauder at this point in the engine bay. And yes, a cowl hood or scoop would probably be required as well as moving/deleting the AC and the master cylinder booster. Big deal. That's your straw man. Nothing I have said is untrue or exaggerated. In fact I've tried to be careful and qualify it in case any aspiring gearhead starts getting ideas. I'm funny about that.

Would anyone like to swing by, have a cold beer or margarita, check out my new 4R70W with transbrake and 10" bracketmaster, and bring a camara so we can serve the good sarge a big tall glass of STHU? I'm in NE FtWorth.

[FordNut]

Just waiting for somebody to prove it will fit. Seeing is believing...

[RCSignals]

Hahaha! You are the one who keeps typing out the misinformation. You sound like a little kid whose ego is bruised from being called out on a lie.
Grow up, drama queen, and quit moving the goalposts. You obviously don't know what you are talking about. I have been there, done that. Yes, the deck height is taller, and yes, as you pointed out, the 90* angle makes it wider too. And yes, a 5.4 DOHC is even wider because the widest part is the top of the valve covers. And yes, that engine fits right in between the mustang strut towers, with about a half inch to spare each side. And yes, there is about 8" - 10" more room in the marauder at this point in the engine bay. And yes, a cowl hood or scoop would probably be required as well as moving/deleting the AC and the master cylinder booster. Big deal. That's your straw man. Nothing I have said is untrue or exaggerated. In fact I've tried to be careful and qualify it in case any aspiring gearhead starts getting ideas. I'm funny about that.

Would anyone like to swing by, have a cold beer or margarita, check out my new 4R70W with transbrake and 10" bracketmaster, and bring a camara so we can serve the good sarge a big tall glass of STHU? I'm in NE FtWorth.

You more agree with Sgt Mac than you realise.

Take some of your own advice, 'Drama Queen'

You say you've 'been there, done that'. Post pictures of your 5.4 installed in the Panther. no, not the mustang.

[GreekGod]

:popcorn: :popcorn: Touche'... time to put up or ....

[SergntMac]

You say you've 'been there, done that'. Post pictures of your 5.4 installed in the Panther. no, not the mustang.
Good idea, thank you. As it usually happens, the discussion turns to insults, it's getting to be rather common around here lately.

Nice to have you back, Duncan.

[ELKO1]

go with a 5.0 DOHC cammer out of the Mustang GTR 450HP N/A

[GreekGod]

RH VIEW-NEEDUM BIG SCOOPhttp://www.karkraft.com/FRONT_RH1.jpgOOP!

[GreekGod]

DIN-O-SAUR RETRO LOOK & 675 horsepower<TABLE dir=ltr cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><!--msnavigation--><TD vAlign=top><!--mstheme--><!--mstheme--></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

http://www.genesis427.com/images/barryfemed.jpg

[GreekGod]

510 CU IN ALUMINUM GENESIShttp://www.genesis427.com/images/Genesis_Alum_Crate_Med.jpg

[SergntMac]

Why do I even bother...

[Tinaree]

When did I say I had a panther with a 5.4???

I said I assisted with a swap into a mustang. I know the tightest clearances were on the strut towers, which were extremely close. The next hardest thing was the brake cylinder, which will definitely need some changes on the marauder, because the mustang does not have vacuum assisted power brakes.

[SergntMac]

I know the tightest clearances were on the strut towers, which were extremely close. The next hardest thing was the brake cylinder, which will definitely need some changes on the marauder, because the mustang does not have vacuum assisted power brakes.
http://www.mercurymarauder.net/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=7120&cat=500&page=1

Now I'm really wondering if you own a Marauder at all, like it says in your profile. Here's the best shot I have on hand at the moment, and owners should be able to lift their hood and study this area themselves. We don't have strut towers, and IMHO, there is plenty of clearance with the power brake booster, it's tucked up real nice into the firewall.

However, as you move across towards the passenger side, things get real tight. So thight, members here have pinched their wiring looms on both sides of the 4.6L between the valve covers and the cowl/firewall. The master cylinder isn't a problem, but the rest of it is, and if you owned a Marauder, should be able to see this yourself.

I notice you're from Texas, is your Marauder white?

[GreekGod]

I think the white Marauder is his mothers.

[rumble]

Would anyone like to swing by, have a cold beer or margarita, check out my new 4R70W with transbrake and 10" bracketmaster, and bring a camara so we can serve the good sarge a big tall glass of STHU? I'm in NE FtWorth.

For what it's worth.


I certainly don't have a dog in this fight and I am a little confused by some of the claims,
but I will be at Chuck's in Grapevine on the 27th and will have my trusty digital camera.
If you wish to swing some of that iron by I will take the pictures and gladly post them.

[Rider90]

I notice you're from Texas, is your Marauder white?
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

[RCSignals]

For what it's worth.


I certainly don't have a dog in this fight and I am a little confused by some of the claims,
but I will be at Chuck's in Grapevine on the 27th and will have my trusty digital camera.
If you wish to swing some of that iron by I will take the pictures and gladly post them.

I'm sure the pictures will be very nice. Only thing there won't be a 5.4 equipped Marauder in them... :)

[BlackHole]

Well if anybody would like to donate some $$$$$ for my 5.4 L motor in an MM and a 4.6 DOHC motor in a L Please send donations to Ohio P.O. box 114............... :rolleyes: :rolleyes: But like I said before your also forgetting about the 4R100 tranny behind the 5.4 S/C engine and the modifications to the tranny tunnel on the MM to make it fit. The 4R100 is almost twice the size of the 4R70W

[GreekGod]

The 4r100 is HUGE. Until you see one sitting on the floor you can't appreciate how big it really is.

[Tinaree]

http://www.mercurymarauder.net/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=7120&cat=500&page=1

Now I'm really wondering if you own a Marauder at all, like it says in your profile. Here's the best shot I have on hand at the moment, and owners should be able to lift their hood and study this area themselves. We don't have strut towers, and IMHO, there is plenty of clearance with the power brake booster, it's tucked up real nice into the firewall.

However, as you move across towards the passenger side, things get real tight. So thight, members here have pinched their wiring looms on both sides of the 4.6L between the valve covers and the cowl/firewall. The master cylinder isn't a problem, but the rest of it is, and if you owned a Marauder, should be able to see this yourself.

What I am wondering about is if you have ever been in the same room with a 5.4 DOHC, or even SOHC. No, there are no strut towers, it has upper A-arms mounted to the frame. That is the clearance point you are up against in the mustang, which is smaller than the marauder (which you were wrong about, or have you flip-flopped yet again?). Now maybe your Mercury engine bay is filled with crap, but I don't see much in the way on mine. An EGR tube, coolant and AC lines, a few odds and ends. Wires, hoses, pipes, those should not be any problem for fabrication. The header clarance over that framerail would be more of a concern to me. The evaporator, of course, that goes without saying. That brake booster is definitely in the way, in mine at least. It covers about 4" or so of area that the heads are going to need, unless you move the engine waaay forward. It might be over enough to replace it with a non-vacuum booster, hard to tell.


I notice you're from Texas, is your Marauder white?
You know, you and your little "posse" are so petty it's pathetic. I expect your sycophants will now be pouring 40 weight oil in their 4V, "because Mac did it". Heaven forbid someone pointing out what a dumbass your posts make you out to be. Is this what is in store for anyone who gets invited to join the forum? Maybe Slowpoke should put a disclaimer on his handout cards that reads "Don't point out Mac's idiocy". You really should ask yourself, why would a member stop a total stranger, tell them all about Chuck's, and this site, and their two Marauders, unless that person were also in a Marauder?

http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?t=10834&page=9&pp=15

:rolleyes:

[Tinaree]

For what it's worth.


I certainly don't have a dog in this fight and I am a little confused by some of the claims,
but I will be at Chuck's in Grapevine on the 27th and will have my trusty digital camera.
If you wish to swing some of that iron by I will take the pictures and gladly post them.
We might be there, rumble, and we'll definitely make it one of these days. But don't bother with pictures just to soothe these kids' egos. Right now weekends are pretty full; moving to another OS at work, putting the tranny in the Cobra, crewing for a circle track car, and a millon odds and ends that I don't even want to think about.

[SergntMac]

Dude, why can't you just discuss things without the name-calling and insults? It's just a car, right? I don't mind brainstorming stuff with you, but it comes to a point where it just won't work, within the context the question was stated. After that, Hell, stick it in the trunk, money fixes everything.

I apologize for the "white marauder" remark, consider it a failed attempt at a touch of humor.

You have rattled off several reasons why this the 5.4L swap won't work, but you're still flaming me, why? I haven't changed my position from answer #2, and you just keep barking at me. WTF?

With regards to the Mustang engine bay, it is bigger and in the right places, I never said a swap into a Mustang wouldn't work. You said you have done it, fine, but only because it offers more space in the right places, places a Marauder doen't have.

This topic is closed for me, and if you can't entertain "what if" discussions without taking, or making it personal, please put me on ignore.

[RCSignals]

Dude, why can't you just discuss things without the name-calling and insults? .............................. ......
You have rattled off several reasons why this the 5.4L swap won't work, but you're still flaming me, why? I haven't changed my position from answer #2, and you just keep barking at me. WTF?

.............................. ...

Dunno what it is Mac, this person is sounding more and more like a few other new joiners from the past who went off the deep end about QUOTE your little "posse" UNQUOTE and comments such as QUOTE "because Mac did it". Heaven forbid someone pointing out what a dumbass your posts make you out to be. Is this what is in store for anyone who gets invited to join the forum? Maybe Slowpoke should put a disclaimer on his handout cards that reads "Don't point out Mac's idiocy". UNQUOTE

Everyone who has happened to agree with you Mac, has been insulted by this person. Heaven forbid anyone disagree with him!

Perhaps we all are not grateful enough that this person has graced us with his presence here?

http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?t=10834&page=9&pp=15

[Tinaree]

:lol: :lol: :lol:

[RCSignals]

:lol: :lol: :lol:


I'm most happy you are amused.

Here is more for you.

http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?t=20456&page=2

post # 19