Engine oil as a coolant?

[SergntMac]

500 miles ago, I drained my trusty Motorcraft 5W20 synthetic blend engine oil, and refilled with Quaker State 10W40 "for high mileage engines". I was curious about it's properties and I monitored it's performance as best I could. The only remarkable observation is a 17-20 degree increase in "normal" engine temps, by normal I mean steady, average.

From my customary 183-185 to 204-206 degrees, and in several driving conditions, including rush hour crawl, stop and go city driving, and highway cruises for at least one hour at the posted limit. My IATs also increased 5-7 degrees, but I attribute this to the IAT sensor's proximity to a warmer engine, which can't be helped.

The next 500 miles, 10W30 QS for high mileage engines.

[jgc61sr2002]

500 miles ago, I drained my trusty Motorcraft 5W20 synthetic blend engine oil, and refilled with Quaker State 10W40 "for high mileage engines". I was curious about it's properties and I monitored it's performance as best I could. The only remarkable observation is a 17-20 degree increase in "normal" engine temps, by normal I mean steady, average.

From my customary 183-185 to 204-206 degrees, and in several driving conditions, including rush hour crawl, stop and go city driving, and highway cruises for at least one hour at the posted limit. My IATs also increased 5-7 degrees, but I attribute this to the IAT sensor's proximity to a warmer engine, which can't be helped.

The next 500 miles, 10W30 QS for high mileage engines.


Sarg - Just wondering if you checked the gas mileage. IMO there should be a slight decrease when using a heavier grade oil.

[SergntMac]

Sarg - Just wondering if you checked the gas mileage. IMO there should be a slight decrease when using a heavier grade oil. I'm not looking at the MPG aspect right now, my curiosity is focused on oil circulation and temperature properties at the moment. MPG will come up later, once my study is more focused.

I expected 10W40 to be the outer limit, this stuff pours like honey, which is why I truncated my initial test mileage at 500 miles, rather than bother going the full 1K. I'll do the same with the 10W30 fill, if it's called for.

Thanks for your interest.

[RF Overlord]

Mac, you have always been one of the "trailblazers" here. Many of the mods we take for granted now were first investigated and reported on by you. Many of those mods are currently on the Blackbird as a direct result of your efforts. :up:

But...(you knew there had to be a "but" in here)

This is one avenue I wish you wouldn't explore. Lemme 'splain:

Your thread title is right on the mark; motor oil actually has 3 duties:

1) lubricate
2) seal
3) cool

Approximately 60% of a motor's heat is removed by the cooling system; the other 40% is removed by the oil.

The oil you've been using is designed for "higher mileage" engines, engines with a bit of wear, and possibly worn valve seals, leaky gaskets, a lot of sludge, etc. It is specifically formulated to be on the "thicker" side of its viscosity rating, and contains additional detergents/dispersants, along with seal-conditioning agents.

An oil's viscosity is not a single number, rather it's a range: 20-weight oils are in the range of 5.6- 9.29 cSt (centiStokes), 30s are 9.3- 12.49, and 40s are 12.5 to 16.49 (these numbers are measured at 100°C). For the purposes of this discussion, you can ignore the "5W-" or "10W-" portion of the oil.

The "recommended" oil for the MM is Motorcraft 5W-20, which has a viscosity of 49 cSt at 40°C and 8.8 cSt at 100°C. The QS 10W-40 oil you were just using has a viscosity of 108 cSt at 40° and 16 cSt at 100°. As you can see, the QS oil is WAY thicker than the Motorcraft. I'm not trying to start a "thicker is bad" or "20-weight is only for CAFE" argument here, I'm just trying to point out that a 40-weight oil is very thick for our motors, and an HM 40 is even thicker. Your increased coolant temps are probably due to the extra parasitic drag of trying to force that 40-weight molasses through your motor.

The 10W-30 you're contemplating has a viscosity of 79.3 cSt at 40° and 12.2 cSt at 100°, which is significantly "lighter" or "thinner" than the stuff you were just using. In fact, it would probably be an acceptable choice for anyone living below the Mason-Dixon line, but I think it's still a bit too thick for Chicago winters. I'm afraid you're going to have problems if you continue using either of these oils after October...whenever the temps start getting below 45°F or so.

If you want to continue using a 10W-30, it should not be a higher-mileage version...they really don't do anything useful in a new engine in sound mechanical condition. Of course, if your engine builder specified to use one of these oils, then that's a different story...they set up the clearances and they should know the right oil to use.

[RCSignals]

Oh Boy, an oil thread. Now we're talking!

RF is correct on this subject, to no ones surprise.

[David Morton]

Yah, screw those engineers at Ford! You're way smarter than they are. 10W40 is like twice as better than 5w20. Besides, those oily horses running next to your car look really cool! :rolleyes:

(end of sarcasm)

Your rod bearings, wrist pins and valve guides are opening up already. The extra heat is from friction caused by the oil not being able to get into the tighter clearances modern engines are designed with. It has nothing to do with the oils capacity to cool, they all cool about the same amount.

Oil is like little balls. Heavier oils are bigger balls and modern engines have very tight clearances that won't accept the bigger balls so the metal wears until the bigger balls can get into the bearings. I won't be suprised to see the thread where your motor has seized up or is knocking. Good luck. You will need it. At best you have taken 25,000 miles off the life of your engine.

I recommend you drain that ***** out as soon as possible and get the proper oil in there before it does any more damage.

[Bradley G]

The first time I saw the 5-20 #'s, I was very reluctant to this change.
Temperature and circulation, were the two ideas I came away with when It(new # oil) was explained to me.
I am confused if your engine is only a few months old how come you are treating it like it is an older engine?
If you are going to change oils, why don't you go full synthetic?

[SergntMac]

Thank you gentlemen for your advice and caution, but (yes there is alway a but, RF), this is a controlled test to determine (as the thread title says) engine oil's value as a coolant. Because I have mentioned this test in a number of other threads recently, I thought that y'all knew what I was doing. Okay, you don't, so, let me recap.

Over the years, we have "enjoyed" many many oil threads, it's been a lot of fun. With all the different perspectives and outlooks presented, the topic gets covered from every possible angle. Everyone has an exact and precise justification for the type and weight of engine oil of their choice, yet, I've not heard anyone (other than me) ever mention oil's cooling properties in those discussions.

I do not think of myself as smarter than Ford engineers, quite the opposite. I'm usually the voice that says "clean oil, stick with the recommended fill". However, Ford didn't build my engine, Randy Crowley did, and he wants me to use the 10W40 HMV.

As I said in the opening post, I can see that the 10W40 fill isn't going to work, it keeps the combustion chamber way too warm, and I'm not going to rethink my tune. Also, I think the HMV stuff is more hype and marketing than not, but that's IMHO, I am not presenting any facts. Why HMV? Custom engine builds share many characteristics with high mileage engines, if there is any real difference with this HMV oil, this could be Randy's reasoning.

Yesterday, I drained the 10W40, it's out of consideration. Went to the 10W30 fill, and already I see some improvement. My daily drive to work includes a stretch on the highway, about 20 minutes at 70 MPH. Yesterday, with the 10W40 and 73 degrees ambient air, engine temps were 202-204. This morning, 10W30, 71 degrees ambient, engine temps were 196-198. Off to an interesting start, eh?

I have other brands and weights waiting their turn, but I'm not going to employ full synethitics simply due to cost. Under normal circumstances, I'll change my oil every 2500 miles, or, so, and the cost of the final selection will scored as well. The test goes on, what I find out may be useful to others with heat and detonation concerns.

One observation I can make is that's the OEM temp gauge is useless. My engine temps have shifted remarkably (one time it spiked to 230 degrees) and the temp gauge stayed at 19 MPH. That's bogus, IMHO.

[Rider90]

One observation I can make is that's the OEM temp gauge is useless. My engine temps have shifted remarkably (one time it spiked to 230 degrees) and the temp gauge stayed at 19 MPH. That's bogus, IMHO.
When my Crown Vic blew the plastic intake manifold coolant crossover there was coolant and steam everywhere and it took about 20 seconds for it to react :rolleyes:

"Really? I'm overheating??" :rolleyes:

[TheDealer]

Here's my .02 take on this. I believe the increased temp is due to the engine working harder with the heavier oil. From what I been told and what I've seen in our dealership. The 4.6 engine has some tiny oil passages, some as small as 40 thousandth of an inch. I've seen cars come in that have used 10w30 and 10w40 with blown engines. The increased temp causes oil break down with produces slug. The slug clogs oil passages. It also causes a stuck relief valve in oil pumps which causes the oil pressure to sky rocket and blow the oil fitler apart. Results, broken rods, cracked block and just blown up engines. I'm sure gas milage and 1/4 mile ET will suffer. Oil pressure will increase. These engines are not like yesterdays engines with huge oil passages and loose brg. clearances. These engines are designed with clearances and oil passages for 5w20 and 5w30 motor oil. Just my .02. Ray

[WolfeBros]

One thing I have always admired about Mac is that he always puts his own money where his mouth is......he is risking the long term health of his own automobile with this test but as always he shares what he has learned about his experience with this board. We can as usual only benefit from what he learns. Thank you Mac.......in case I haven't said that enough in the past.
I am very interested in your results. Your testing led the way here in the early days of Maraudering......I benefited more than once from your posts here.

That being said.......(uh oh a but ) I also was one of the first to think that this 5W20 oil was all crapola and was just done for CAFE reasons. I still think that CAFE drove the bus but Ford also closed up bearing clearances. Tighter bearing clearances to me says that it takes thinner motor oil to get in these places for both cooling and lubrication. I'm not an SAE certified engineer but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express once or twice.......I'm staying with the Ford 5W20 until the ol gal throws a rod thru the block......then I will have my say with Ford warranty folks.

(As usual I reserve the right to change my mind and put some 5W30 synthetic back in one of these days as well. )

Continue on Mac. :bows:

[Tinaree]

You do realize that your cam chain tension is dependent on your oil pressure, right? Its not one of Ford's finer moments, but it works. If the oil viscosity is correct.

[RoyLPita]

I saw a TSB for earlier 4.6 GMs and CVs that had the oil filter "balloon up" when using 10w40 oil.

Just my .02 and then some.

[SergntMac]

You do realize that your cam chain tension is dependent on your oil pressure, right? Its not one of Ford's finer moments, but it works. If the oil viscosity is correct. Yes.

I saw a TSB for earlier 4.6 GMs and CVs that had the oil filter "balloon up" when using 10w40 oil. Just my .02 and then some.Gentlemen, the 10W40 was drained before my first post here. It's 10W30 now, and I'm pleased to see this test produce a difference between the two weights. On the way home from work yesterday, 195-197 average temp from 30 miles of stop and go city driving on a 90 degree day. It's getting better.

[Bradley G]

Now that the Motors' charactaristics have changed, I guess you go with what the engine builder says to run.My gut tells me, to run the oil that keeps things cooler.

[TheDealer]

Yes.
Gentlemen, the 10W40 was drained before my first post here. It's 10W30 now, and I'm pleased to see this test produce a difference between the two weights. On the way home from work yesterday, 195-197 average temp from 30 miles of stop and go city driving on a 90 degree day. It's getting better.


10W30 IS STILL TOO HEAVY. IT SHOULD BE 5W

[Tinaree]

You said:


Custom engine builds share many characteristics with high mileage engines, if there is any real difference with this HMV oil, this could be Randy's reasoning.

Well did you bother to ask? And on what do you base this statement?

You followed up with:

I have other brands and weights waiting their turn, but I'm not going to employ full synethitics simply due to cost.
So what is going on? You have a bunch of different weights to try but you justified this previous experiment based on somebody saying something that only suports one experiment? Either you don't trust the advice from Crowley, or you are hunting for some answer you want to hear. For someone who brags about paying $42K for a glorified Crown Vic, you suddenly became awful frugal. Tell us the truth; did Crowley really insist on 10w40? Why didn't you have that in there from the get-go, and B) why would you question it? Aspiring gearheads really would like to know the logic behind this. Maybe you could teach us all something...

[Rider90]

For someone who brags about paying $42K for a glorified Crown Vic
I'm sorry sir, but do you have a link to support this? All the time I've known Mac, talked to him in person and online he has never once bragged about what he drives. Whatever anyone owns is there own business, too. It is always the crowd that huddles around any Kenny Brown Marauder S that asks questions, Mac simply answers, just as much as any Marauder owner. We usually have to twist his arm to get him to show us something. Mac is the guy that comes to the scene, pops his hood, and talks about cars. Not only that, he goes around to see what you've done to your Marauder and shows true intrest. A glorified Crown Vic? You won't be making too many friends around here and it's a shame as you seem like you know your stuff.

[MERCMAN]

We welcome your input here and hope you share more about yourself and your expertise, but derogatory comments about our members are not looked upon with favor here on MM.net. If you want to debate, ask questions, etc, FINE. But as a new member with few posts please limit your responses to that. We are a close knit brotherhood here at MM.net. and our main goal is to share information with the occasional "zinger" thrown in for laughs.Give us a chance to get to know you and you to know us. Though we appreciate your knowledge, personal flaming will not be tolerated. Consider this as a gentle "nudge" Next time it will not be gentle

[David Morton]

Maybe you could teach us all something...That he will.

Guys, I'm telling you from experience, don't do this. This stuff about oils cooling ability, the "motor working harder" and that accounts for the huge increase in temperature is a bunch of shadetree hooey. His big jump in temps is because of friction. It will go down some as the wrist pins, piston to cylinder and rod and main bearing clearances open up and let the heavier oil in, but the bottom line is he's damaging his engine.

There's a system designed just for cooling our engines and it's called...

:director: the cooling system!

The oiling system is just for lubrication and the engineers have put absolutely no thought into how it can help cool the engine.

But who am I to criticize? I only spent 20 years studying and working on automobiles, going to factory training seminars and reading factory treatises on modern technology and the uses of modern oils and coolants, how lighter oils give better wear and can now be used with the better tolerances of modern production techniques that can have tighter clearances. But what do they know? Maybe that "recommended" stuff in your owners manual is designed to wear your machine out faster so you'll bring it back while it's still under warranty. Maybe we better go to the high priests of racing at Hot Rod Magazine and use 20w50 like the Top Fuel boys do.

:lol:

[Tallboy]

You said:


Well did you bother to ask? And on what do you base this statement?

You followed up with:

So what is going on? You have a bunch of different weights to try but you justified this previous experiment based on somebody saying something that only suports one experiment? Either you don't trust the advice from Crowley, or you are hunting for some answer you want to hear. For someone who brags about paying $42K for a glorified Crown Vic, you suddenly became awful frugal. Tell us the truth; did Crowley really insist on 10w40? Why didn't you have that in there from the get-go, and B) why would you question it? Aspiring gearheads really would like to know the logic behind this. Maybe you could teach us all something...You're gonna have to get your post count way up and get a lot of respect from a lot of people before you can start slapping Mac around. You want to call him out on something? Fine. Just use a little more tact and give the man a whole lot of respect. Like him or not, he's earned it.

[SergntMac]

My gut tells me, to run the oil that keeps things cooler. So does mine, Bradley, and which weight is what I want to know. I know what to expect from Motorcraft 5W20, a rock solid 180-183 degrees, but there are other weights folks here are using, and without the benefit of any 411 on temperature control. The OEM temp gauge isn't sensitive enough to show a 20 degree rise in temps, but that 20 degree rise affects the combustion process (rationale for 180 degree stat) and leads to excessive carbon build-up and detonation. The results could look like this...
http://www.mercurymarauder.net/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=7608&cat=500&page=1

So what is going on? You have a bunch of different weights to try but you justified this previous experiment based on somebody saying something that only suports one experiment? Either you don't trust the advice from Crowley, or you are hunting for some answer you want to hear. This study is far from over, the 10W40 fill was only a starting point. I'll drive 500 miles on the 10W30, or, truncate the test when I see steady and repeated results from different driving conditions, then move to another weight. I trust Randy Crowley's advice, he's very well known in the race engine business, and he's interested in my results too.

For someone who brags about paying $42K for a glorified Crown Vic, you suddenly became awful frugal. Tell us the truth; did Crowley really insist on 10w40? Why didn't you have that in there from the get-go, and B) why would you question it? It's not a matter of being frugal, if you pause to consider how to conduct such a study, testing by brand, or, composite at the same time you are testing by weight, will skew results. I selected one brand/composite of oil because it's available in the variety of weights I want to test, and use that as a control, like having a good baseline dyno pull to work from when tuning. There's room for testing synthetics vs. dino, or, multi-blends later, but I want to get this weight/temp question answered first, it's something we haven't discussed before. It's also less expensive when I'm draining the oil long before it's time. Yes, Randy recommended the 10W40, and there was never any question of his expertise. However, I'm looking for options to address the increase in temps because my MM is a daily driver, as well as an OTR car.

I may end up proving nothing at all, that weights do not matter, but this is how I enjoy my MM. It began it's life as a test bed for experiment, this is what it does for me, along with some fun 1/4 mile stuff, and road trips across the country to hang with MM friends. You ask odd questions, but with respect for your other remarks...Dude, you don't know me, and you never heard me make such a brag.

Guys, I'm telling you from experience, don't do this. I cannot agree more, David. No one should consider any of this as approval, there's no green light here, yet. "Kids, don't do this at home", but remember too, I don't have a stock MM engine. When I'm done, or, declare defeat, we'll all know something more about engine oil, yes?

This stuff about oils cooling ability, the "motor working harder" and that accounts for the huge increase in temperature is a bunch of shadetree hooey. His big jump in temps is because of friction. It will go down some as the wrist pins, piston to cylinder and rod and main bearing clearances open up and let the heavier oil in, but the bottom line is he's damaging his engine. The oiling system is just for lubrication and the engineers have put absolutely no thought into how it can help cool the engine. But who am I to criticize? I only spent 20 years studying and working on automobiles, going to factory training seminars and reading factory treatises on modern technology and the uses of modern oils and coolants, how lighter oils give better wear and can now be used with the better tolerances of modern production techniques that can have tighter clearances. But what do they know? Maybe that "recommended" stuff in your owners manual isdesigned to wear your machine out faster so you'll bring it back while it's still under warranty. Maybe we better go to the high priests of racing at Hot Rod Magazine and use 20w50 like the Top Fuel boys do. :lol:I have no problem with an opposing opinion, David, but I have a feeling that when this study is concluded, one of us will be a little smarter about stuff. Maybe it will be me when Randy has to rebuild my engine a second time, maybe not.

There's been glut of threads here where folks brag about what the best oil is, but none of them address how their particular favorite affects other systems. Been there, done that myself. Back in 1977, I bought a brand new Dodge Diplomat with a 318 engine. Shortly thereafter, Mobil released their first synthetic offering. I can't recall the name, but it was something with a lot of graphite in it and it was supposed to be the answer in engine oil for the gas crisis of the day. I switched over, and less than 40K miles later, my engine locked. The tear down was alarming, inches of sludge in the pan and valey, you could stand a screwdrive on it's tip like a straw in a thick milkshake. It was toast, and I'd hate to see someone do this to their Marauder by messing with brands, composites and weights, without knowing as much as possible about the side affects. Already, I've seen the impact of 10W40, therefore, this study has proven it's worth to this point.

BTW, Randy does use 20W50 in his race car, and while you spent 20 years repairing the engineer's better ideas, Randy has as many years of making those ideas go fast.

www.per-race-engines.com

That's his '05 Mustang on the home page. 5.4, 3-valve, ran in the mid 9's at Joliet two weeks ago. Of course, this proves nothing, other than an absence of shadetrees on his property.

[WolfeBros]

But who am I to criticize? I only spent 20 years studying and working on automobiles, going to factory training seminars and reading factory treatises on modern technology and the uses of modern oils and coolants, how lighter oils give better wear and can now be used with the better tolerances of modern production techniques that can have tighter clearances.
:lol:

Only 20 years ? You got a late start pal. Maybe you and Tinaree can lock yourselfs in a thread and knock each other into another zip code with all the self righteous automotive know all chest pounding that you each have been spewing. The originator of this thread was not advocating to anyone to try what he is doing. Perhaps his results will back up what you are saying? I have been working on automobiles for 40 years and I am interested in what the man finds out.

[RF Overlord]

The oiling system is just for lubrication and the engineers have put absolutely no thought into how it can help cool the engine.David,
I certainly can't lay claim to your level of training or experience, so the confusion here must be all mine. You seem to be saying that the lubrication system in an internal combustion engine has no part in cooling the motor. That goes against everything I've read about oil and lubrication systems...perhap you can clarify this statement from Perma-Cool's website: "Almost one third of the heat generated by the engine must be removed by the vehicle's two cooling systems. That's correct, your engine has two cooling systems. (1) The top of the engine: the area around each cylinder in the engine block, the combustion chamber areas in the cylinder heads and the intake manifold, dispel heat through the engine's radiator coolant system. (2) The rest of the engine: the crankshaft, bearings, camshaft, lifters, connecting rods and pistons are only cooled by engine oil."

I realise that cooling is not the oil's primary job, but I've always understood that it DOES in fact play a significant part. Help me out here? :confused:

[MERCMAN]

Now you have gone and done it, David. You got RF going on an oil thread. Man the lifeboats,,women and children first,,head for the hills!! :rofl:

[Haggis]

Now you have gone and done it, David. You got RF going on an oil thread. Man the lifeboats,,women and children first,,head for the hills!! :rofl:
Oh good, something interesting to read and it is not about S/Cs. Get him RF, sick'em boy. :puppy:

[GreekGod]

BMW motorcycles include an air-oil cooled opposed twin. They are referred to as 'oil heads' in the BMW motorcycle sub-culture. The prior models are referred to as 'airheads'. The police (oil-head) models come with two 12v fans to aid the cooling of the oil cooler radiators when the air-OIL cooled engines are left running such as during a traffic stop, road block, etc. The regular (non-police) models do not have the fans. Another (automobile) engine that is air-oil cooled is of course the VW/Beetle opposed 4 cylinder. Suzuki has air-oil cooled engines also. :eek: :hmmm: :banghead:

[Tinaree]

We welcome your input here and hope you share more about yourself and your expertise, but derogatory comments about our members are not looked upon with favor here on MM.net. If you want to debate, ask questions, etc, FINE. But as a new member with few posts please limit your responses to that. We are a close knit brotherhood here at MM.net. and our main goal is to share information with the occasional "zinger" thrown in for laughs.Give us a chance to get to know you and you to know us. Though we appreciate your knowledge, personal flaming will not be tolerated. Consider this as a gentle "nudge" Next time it will not be gentle
Nudge acknowledged. Thank you.

[WolfeBros]

The oiling system is just for lubrication and the engineers have put absolutely no thought into how it can help cool the engine.


From page 21 of the Motor Oil Bible, by Michael Kaufman

(on the four properties that an engine motor oil must have)

IT MUST COOL

Motor oil is responsible for a large percentage of the cooling that takes place within your engine. Your radiator is only responsible for cooling the upper portion of your engine. The rest, crankshaft, camshaft, timing gears, pistons, main and connecting rod bearings and many other critical engine components are cooled mainly by the motor oil within your engine.

Heat is generated within an engine from both the combustion process and the fricition caused by the motion of engine components. As oil passes through the system it is directed onto these hot surfaces in order to carry the heat away to the oil pan. From here the heat is dissipated to the air surrounding the pan.

[2003 MIB]

Nudge acknowledged. Thank you.
Thank God!- An adult lives in the Metroplex- who'd have thought??!
I have a huge amount of respect for someone who can say, "Oops!- I was out of line, my bad". Kudos Tinaree- that's class.:beer:

I look forward to meeting you at Chuck's this month.
-Dan

[Tinaree]

Its still iffy, but at least I'm not on call that weekend. I'm looking forward to it too.

[sailsmen]

The OEM guage reads the same between 180* to 230*, as in it will only read hotter when it hits 235*.

It is really an idiot lite, when it hits 235* you can tell the car is running hot based on smell and how it drives.

[Blackened300a]

My Engine Calls for 5W20, I shall use ONLY 5W20...

I have Nothing Else
Carry on...

[David Morton]

Of course oil cools the crank, rods, pistons, etc. ad finitum.

I didn't say oil doesn't cool engine parts, I said the engineers give no thought to the cooling of oil because it's a given. They don't spend one New York minute considering whether a passage should go here instead of there because it will cool better or how to design the head so the oil will stream past a hot spot. Modern oils that have much better cooling abilities (because they are thinner) can now be used and the engineers have been very happy to take advantage of them and have designed engines with tighter clearances so the lighter oils can be used.

I just hope your mechanic has taken everything into account. Clearances, flow control orifices, oil control rings, valve guides and seals, there's a whole lot more than just Plastiguageing the rod bearings to two thousandths so they'll let the bigger molecules in.

Probably the biggest thing that got me off on this topic is that it was stated this change in oil was to find out about the heavier oils cooling ability. I could have answered that one without an experiment.

Lighter oils cool better than heavier ones. Smaller molecules don't hold heat as much as bigger ones. That's why ATF is so light, and why pure coolant isn't best in a cooling system and needs water to thin it down for better heat transfer.

So my question is: You wanted it to run hotter?

Or has somebody found a plausible (to the uneducated) excuse to find something wrong with light oils because the good old "bigger is better" gremlin is running around in his head?

That can be a hard one to admit.

[rayjay]

After reading this thread, this does not seem so far fetched. http://www.jcwhitney.com/autoparts/Product/tf-Browse/s-10101/Pr-p_Product.CATENTRY_ID:2000859/showCustom-0/p-2000859/N-111+600007258+10201/c-10101

[David Morton]

Only 20 years ? You got a late start pal. Maybe you and Tinaree can lock yourselfs in a thread and knock each other into another zip code with all the self righteous automotive know all chest pounding that you each have been spewing. The originator of this thread was not advocating to anyone to try what he is doing. Perhaps his results will back up what you are saying? I have been working on automobiles for 40 years and I am interested in what the man finds out.
Since you were 13? Cool, I started wrenching at 15 myself. Yeah, I got a late start at 26 getting real training, but I won't say all that went before was bad. My mention of 20 years was after the twelve years of shadetree, junkyard and Hot Rod magazine oil salesman, and folklore type wrenching.

I was talking about factory training from experts specializing in transmission, engine mechanical, special electronics training, tune-up, lubrication technology, cooling system theory, steering and suspension technology, driveline systems and vibration diagnosis, sound systems, air conditioning and refrigerant conversion methods, all of it General Motors but mostly industry standard type stuff. Not the usual Tire Busting 101, "loud pipes save lives" or LOFs made fast and easy, that you get from being a Midas trained "toucher".

Just curious, how many years of factory training you got?

[1stMerc]

"Kids, don't do this at home", but remember too, I don't have a stock MM engine. When I'm done, or, declare defeat, we'll all know something more about engine oil, yes?
Mac, just incase i missed it it in an earlier thread/post, (still being relatively new), can you post the specifics on your MM, especially the motor.

I for one appreciate you taking the time and effort and the funds to test the different weights of oils. That new Q from Quaker State that's suppose get better as it gets hotter intrigues me, But alas have to wait till the Ford oil contract expires to give it a shot.

keep up the good work
Waymon

[Marauderjack]

Oil Threads.....Jeez!!!!

I have a question for you guys!!

In this modern day of synthetics could I use 5W40 Rotella 100% synthetic oil in the MM??? At 5 weight equivalent cold and 40 hot would it flow that much worse than 5W30 Mobil One I have been using for over a year??

Everything I have read says that diesel oils have much more zinc and phophorus (anti-wear additives) than "gas" oils but that they eventually cause catalytic converter problems??? :confused:

Comments?? :rolleyes:

Marauderjack :D

[WolfeBros]

David I won't debate qualifications with you on a public forum. There is no point to it and no winner. You want peoples respect here? Don't post misinformation and then try to justify it by touting your factory training.

Your welcome to call me out on any of the posts I have made that you can show contained misinformation. Serenity now. :rolleyes:

[Blackened300a]

Oil Threads.....Jeez!!!!

I have a question for you guys!!

In this modern day of synthetics could I use 5W40 Rotella 100% synthetic oil in the MM??? At 5 weight equivalent cold and 40 hot would it flow that much worse than 5W30 Mobil One I have been using for over a year??

Everything I have read says that diesel oils have much more zinc and phophorus (anti-wear additives) than "gas" oils but that they eventually cause catalytic converter problems??? :confused:

Comments?? :rolleyes:

Marauderjack :DLubricants for gasoline and diesel engine are different as the load, cycles and fuels are different. The oil in an engine does more than just reduce friction between its moving parts. It also helps to seal the high-pressure combustion gases inside the cylinders, to impede the corrosion of metal parts, to absorb some of the harmful by-products of combustion, and to transfer heat from one part of the engine to another.

Combustion of rich air-fuel mixture during starting, idling and warm up form deposits. These deposits in the form of varnish, sludge, soot and carbon, interfere with proper engine operation.

The engine oil keeps all the deposit forming material in suspension and gets rid of them by oil filter, or draining out at proper intervals.

Engine oil is stored in the oil pan or sump at the bottom of the engine. A pump forces the oil through a filter and then through a series of passages and galleries to lubricate the engine’s moving parts. The flow of also cools these parts. Rapidly moving engine parts actually float on a thin film of oil and never make contact with one another. This is called hydrodynamic lubrication and usually begins when an engine reaches the idle speed. Most engine wear occurs when a cold engine is first started, before the oil reaches its normal operating pressure and flow.

I have been working with Diesel Engines since I was 8yrs old and Im not making that up, My family has owned a Trucking outfit for over 75 yrs here in NY. I also have specialty Training on Diesel engines That I went to school for 2 years to learn. I know Diesel Engines! A Diesel Works on the compression of the Fuel and Air. When the Compression takes place, It burns Hotter and Longer then a Gas Engine with a single Spark. Thats why the engine has so much torque with such a low RPM band.

As the load in diesel engine is much higher it should have higher antiwear properties. Diesel fuel contains a high level of Sulphur which burns to form oxides of sulphur , which in turn in the presence of water, form sulphur acids resting in high corrosion of engine parts. Hence the need of alkalinity reserve in the oil which is represented by its TBN or Total Base Number. Generally, the higher TBN value more the alkalinity reserve or acid neutralizing capacity the oil contains. This is Good For the High Strength Components of a Diesel but BAD for Gas Engine Items such as Rings, HeadGaskets, Cylinder walls, And especially Aluminum Components.

[RF Overlord]

In this modern day of synthetics could I use 5W40 Rotella 100% synthetic oil in the MM??? At 5 weight equivalent cold and 40 hot would it flow that much worse than 5W30 Mobil One I have been using for over a year??Actually, jack, it very well COULD be worse. Viscosity grades are a range, not an absolute, so it's not entirely valid to claim that since the 2 oils you mention both have a "5" grade, they're directly comparable or equal. Mobil 1 5W-30 had a viscosity of 56 cSt at 40°C...Rotella T synthetic 5W-40 has a viscosity of 90 cSt at the same temp...not good for cold start-up at all. Not to mention that the 40 side of the equation has a 100°C viscosity of 15 cSt, compared to Mobil 1's 10...again, just a bit thick for a mod motor.
Everything I have read says that diesel oils have much more zinc and phophorus (anti-wear additives) than "gas" oils but that they eventually cause catalytic converter problems???The current oil classification is SM (no, not S&M Marty, just SM)...one of the differences between the current spec and the previous (SL) is the reduction of allowable phosphorus, which has been implicated in reducing the effectiveness of catalytic converters. So yes, there is a slight possibility that using a motor oil high in P could lead to premature cat failure...the GOOD news is that your motor would have to burn an awful lot of oil for that to happen, so as long as your MM's oil consumption stays low, it's unlikely you'll damage your cats.

[Tinaree]

page 184 of my manual says to look for the certification trademark "For Gasoline Engines". The next page says to use only 5w20. This is for a blueprinted engine. Anyone suggesting a variation from these norms should supply some logic behind that decision. It may be wrong, it may be the next cool thing.

Incidentally, Mobil1 makes a blend specifically for alky engines, if anyone ever gets the urge to play with fuel. Or if local blends start adding lots of alcohol. Its coming, count on it.

[RF Overlord]

The next page says to use only 5w20.For the record, I'll say this one more time: NOWHERE in the owner's manual does it state that 5W-20 is REQUIRED...the exact wording is: "SAE 5W-20 engine oil is recommended"
This is for a blueprinted engine.Tinaree, can you clarify this comment?

[Tinaree]

For the record, I'll say this one more time: NOWHERE in the owner's manual does it state that 5W-20 is REQUIRED...the exact wording is: "SAE 5W-20 engine oil is recommended"
I don't have it handy, I'll take your word on it.


Tinaree, can you clarify this comment?
Blueprinted; re: assembled to OEM specs. Like the old "blueprinted three fiddy", that really means tolerances are within factory specifcations. That means clearances as well (or should, although we know it is often used as a hype buzzword to sell engines).

[Sactown]

Mac, what are all the mixes that you are going to try in your experiment? I promise I won't try this at home.

[SergntMac]

Mac, what are all the mixes that you are going to try in your experiment? I promise I won't try this at home.Off the shelf Quaker State, 2.59 a quart. I've done the 5W20 and 10W40, 10W30 is in the engine now, and 5W30 is next on the list. I'm heading out today for a 100 mile road trip, I'll let y'all know what I find out tonight.

[SergntMac]

The 10W30 is out, the 5W30 is in.

Heat control with the 10W30 was much better than the 10W40, but the engine still ran hotter that I am comfortable with. On a 81 degree day I cruised the highway at 75 MPH for one hour and the temps hovered 186-188 degrees. Later, also at 75 MPH for one hour, but in 90 degree temps, engine temps hovered 195-197. With the AC on, it spiked to 200 degrees, but that's a lot better than my former high of 207.

I noticed that the cool down time was shorter with the lighter weight oil. After running for an hour and peaking, I shut the car down for half an hour, and sampled temps again. The 10W40 oil showed a 30 degree drop, and the 10W30 showed a 42 degree drop. I find this interesting.

While out running several errands, I also noted that the highest temperature ever is after I shut the car off to run an errand. Temps would rise as much as five degrees during this short break, and why not? If the oil is acting as a coolant, and it's not circulating anymore, I would expect everything under the hood to get hotter before any cooling began. No engine bay air circulation, no coolant circulation, and no oil circulation, and with this in mind, the cool down rate is significantly better with the lighter weight oil.

On with the show...

PS...I am considering extending this test to include a "dino vs. synthetic" study, but I don't know much about synthetics. Any suggestions?

[Ralph Sr.]

My car has almost 2K miles, and I changed the oil and filter and put in Mobil 1 5W-30. The car sounds much better in startup mode now that it has full synthetic in it. It also appears to run better. Took it to the track with 100% stock car and ran twice w/ET's of 15.1 and 15.2 seconds. Believe that the complete stock time on this car is around 15.5-15.6 secs.. I believe that I have a good runner here. What do I need to do to get into the 14's? Pulley's? gears (4:10's?), superchargers 13's? Any help will be appreciated.

[GreekGod]

Ah yes-the hot soak temp rise. Reminds me of the brand new big (1975 or '76?) Ford police car I drove while working for a Ford dealer. I can't remember if it was the 429 or 460 engine but it had a heat exchanger engine oil cooler (along side the carburetor) connected to the radiator and a hand throttle on the dash just like a choke knob. I think the throttle knob was to be pulled out after a high speed pursuit to aid in cooling the engine/valves down. This was all factory equiptment and not at all added on aftermarket. The car hadn't been prepped or equipped yet and pulled very nice with a high torque feel to acceleration. We also had a medical doctor customer that got a new LTD every year and he always ordered a 4 door six cylinder stick shift. Imagine how rare those were/are!

[SergntMac]

Interesting development...

I visited Sutton Ford yesterday, for some fine tuning after some recent mods. About a month ago, I switched over to a suck through MAF from Kenny Brown's blow through design. The Kenny Brown cars are the only supercharged MMs here using a blow through design, and I have had several discussions with professional tuners over the last two years about the good and bad of each design. There was only one way to define the difference, so, being my usual experimental self, I jumped into the deep end of the pool.

For those of you who may ask "what's the difference?", the difference is where the MAF process the air charge and makes adjustments to AFR before combustion. A suck through design places the MAF before the supercharger, and the blow through places it after. One processes the air charge before it's compressed, the other after it's been heated by compression and cooled by the water to air intercooler. My IATs have gone up a bit, from 10-12 degrees above ambient air, to 12-15 degrees, but this is fine considering how hot the air charge gets after supercharging. IMHO, water-to-air intercooling is the only way to go.

Once the switch over was complete, Jerry VanDerlinde, Sutton's Master tuner, did his magic. The result was more power down low, cleaner torque and HP curve, and a very stable AFR throughout the pull. This was contrary to my blow through experience and I was very pleased with overall improvement. However, the peak numbers dropped and no one likes giving up power. The RWHP dropped from 478 to 464, and the RWTQ dropped from 434 to 428. That night, Zack and I met up with the Sutton crew at Joliet, and I ran very consistent 12.4x all night long. While pleased with the results, the car feels like it has more to give, and Jerry just smiled and said, "I'll order what you need, Doug will call you."

A few days later, I picked up my new mod, a 2.70 pulley from Reichert Racing. Zack and I installed it and yesterday, I went back for another tune. The end result? 500.44 RWHP, 470 RWTQ, with 300 pounds of that pushing at 2700 RPM. AFR is sweet, my MM has never driven better. Even cruising at local speeds, the power is solid and available very early in the powerband.

Why am I posting this here? Well, the properities of the 5W30 fill in the crankcase were also monitored. This weight performed very well under the stress of 8 dyno pulls in just under 2 hours on the dyno. Normal cruise temps have been hovering at 185-187, and they spiked 10-12 degrees just after the pull through 6500 RPM. The return to normal temps took less time than it took for Jerry to make corrections in the programming and be ready for another pull. That's impressive performance for a 5W30 off the shelf oil, about 2.59 a quart

The stock Kenny Brown fuel system, a Walbro 255 in tank pump, has shown it's limits. 100 percent duty cycle at 6250 RPM and it delivers only 36 PSI across the injectors. I can't call this safe, but there is an easy fix for this underway.

Though I plan to continue my oil study, I can safely say that a 5W30 oil is very safe for our engines, and with a proper maintenence schedule in place, you'll get great service from this weight in the blend of your choice. Remember, the best oil (IMHO) is clean oil.

[WolfeBros]

Wow...congrats on that new found power Mac. Very nice indeed !!! :beer:

Your oil study convinced me to go back to a full synthetic 5W30 and just stay with it. My instinct told me that it was ok almost 3 years ago.

(And no flames on the oil choice please. I know all the arguments.) :argue: :flamer: ;)

[sailsmen]

Impressive numbers and thanks for the oil info.

For the most part I will stick with the Ford OEM Oil.

What peak boost are you running.

Are you running a Boost A Pump?

[GreekGod]

500 RWHP!! Mac-don't let that new power go to your head!

[SergntMac]

Wow...congrats on that new found power Mac. Very nice indeed !!!

Impressive numbers and thanks for the oil info.
Thanks, and you're welcome.

What peak boost are you running. Are you running a Boost A Pump? 18 PSI, no boost-a-pump. Just the Walbro 255 in the tank, and Reinhart's filter and -8 line system in-line. I believe those 45 degree bends in the fuel supply contribute to a lean condition in the high end. If I had not changed out the OEM fuel filter system, I would have been much leaner than 36 PSI.

500 RWHP!! Mac-don't let that new power go to your head!Ummm...Okay. I'm not sure what you mean by this, but okay.

[TooManyFords]

Once the switch over was complete, Jerry VanDerlinde, Sutton's Master tuner, did his magic. The result was more power down low, cleaner torque and HP curve, and a very stable AFR throughout the pull. This was contrary to my blow through experience and I was very pleased with overall improvement.
That is some really great news Mac. Awesome power too!

Now that I am an SCT convert [by virtue of the MV-3 raffle], I will be scheduling my custom tune with Jerry next month. I'll keep y'all posted so we can hook up and do lunch, or take a meeting, or just watch Jerry tune my car. Once done I'll have it loaded into that fancy SCT Pro Racer package that I've been wanting for my laptop for a long, long time.

But I won't hijack this thread. My Oil is fine and I should change it this week.
:)

Huzzah!

John

[metroplex]

In hot climates, you are to use 20W-50 dino or xW-40/xW-50 synthetic oils in the Ford 4.6L SOHC/DOHC V8. By hot climates, I mean something that is similar to Kuwait/Saudi Arabia/Phillipines/Singapore/Australia (parts). Ask anyone what they use in a Falcon XR8 5.4L DOHC V8 in Australia or a Toyota 2.2L in Singapore. No one uses xW-20/xW-30 in hotter climates.

High precision engines in Europe also generally use synthetic xW-40/xW-50 with some exceptions on xW-30.

[Amsoil_Dealer]

The 10W30 is out, the 5W30 is in.

Heat control with the 10W30 was much better than the 10W40, but the engine still ran hotter that I am comfortable with. On a 81 degree day I cruised the highway at 75 MPH for one hour and the temps hovered 186-188 degrees. Later, also at 75 MPH for one hour, but in 90 degree temps, engine temps hovered 195-197. With the AC on, it spiked to 200 degrees, but that's a lot better than my former high of 207.

PS...I am considering extending this test to include a "dino vs. synthetic" study, but I don't know much about synthetics. Any suggestions?

This is interesting stuff Mac. Thanks for documenting your findings.

I have a couple of thoughts on this subject that you (and other folks following this thread) might like to consider.

First, the temperatures that you are observing are nothing to worry about. RF may know the testing protocol better than I do but for any oil to acheive an SL rating it needs to perform for X amount of time at 302F without significant breakdown or vaprorization. At 210F it is not even breathing hard.

Second, if you really want to enhance your testing, consider having the used oil analyzed (www.oaitesting.com or www.blackstone-labs.com). Oil analysis will reveal how much life is left in each batch of oil you test and what the wear metals are in each batch. The latter is a more relevant measure of oil perfromance and more important relative to the long term health of your engine in my opinion than +/- 20 degrees in operating temperature. I think that the oil analysis results will also show that wear differences and oil stability over various oil weights that you are tresting will be negligible over the short drain intervals you employ.

Are you aware by the way that the off the shelf Quaker State oil that you are running is a true dino oil vs. a synthetic blend that is found in Motorcraft 5W20? It may not matter in your case but my bet is that that Motorcraft 5W20 probably performs better in your engine (regardless of temeprature) than any of the weights of QS dino that you are testing. Used oil analysis of both products run under as close to duplicate conditions as possible will confirm or deny my theory.

On the dino vs. synthetic issue, I am a well documented synthetic oil proponent. I cannot argue that there are lots of success stories of countless cars running around with dino oils that run for 200,000 miles or more. Having said that, there is also lot's of real world data that supports the fact that current synthetic oils perform better than dino oils in many applications. With the numbers you are pulling on the dyno it is my opinion that you will find better wear analysis results with synthetic oil vs the mineral oil you are currently using. Your system seems to do a very good job of keeping that oil cool, which is good, but at 500HP you are putting your engine and the oil under some extreme loads. My bet is that the superior shear strength of the synthetic oil (or even a synthetic blend as in Motorcraft 5W20) will give you better wear results. Sure it'll cost you couple of bucks per quart more than what you are using and the oil analysis will cost you $20.00 per pop but it is a drop in the bucket vs. $5000 for a supercharger and $100s of dollars in dyno tuning that you have spent.

Since you have gone thorugh all of this experimentation so far, I suggest that you spend a few more bucks, acquire a little more data in the form of used oil analysis reports on your current oil and future oils, and share the results with us at MM.net. Whatever you decide, please keep us posted on your results and I wish you the best of luck as you enjoy the extra power the mods have provided.

Don

[Rider90]

Congrats on breaking 500 RWHP Mac.

[RF Overlord]

Excellent post, Don!

My impression of Mac's test was that it was purposely limited in scope to temperature testing, hence the extremely short OCIs. However, now that Don has brought up the subject of UOAs (used oil analysis), I think it deserves mention that ANYONE running a power adder would be well served by doing a UOA on at least 2 (more is better) consecutive oil changes, just to be sure that things are all in order internally. Once you've established a "normal" wear metal and contaminant level for your specific conditions, then doing a UOA every third change (for example) will just be peace of mind. I've had 2 UOAs done on the Blackbird, and it's almost ready for it's first oil change after installing the Trilogy. I intend to do at least 2 or 3 more UOAs to establish a new baseline and determine if my current OCI is still acceptable.

Another good point by Don is the matter of synthetic oil. OK, I'm NOT starting a debate on whether it's better than dino for ordinary use, but I think that, once again, anyone running a power adder is putting a LOT more stress on their engine and also on their oil, so using a TRUE* synthetic makes much more sense in that case. The extreme loads placed on the rod, crank, and main bearings by extensive use of a power adder can shear most oils down to almost nothing in very short order, so simply judging your oil's condition by colour, mileage, smell, whatever, is no longer adequate protection. Only a UOA can tell you that your wear metals have increased, or your oil has sheared out of grade and is no longer protecting your (very expensive) motor, or that your % of fuel contamination is too high. The fact that synthetic oils can stand up to these stresses a bit longer may very well save your motor.

In short, UOAs and synthetic oil could be your best friends.

*TRUE synthetic: There are only 4; Mobil 1, AMSOIL, Royal Purple, and Red Line. It appears that the new Pennzoil Platinum might also be a true synth, but none of the other popular oils are TRUE synthetics (Group IV or V). Anyone who wants details is more than welcome to PM me.

[SergntMac]

Don and Bob, I really appreciate your input here, two great essays full of information.

Bob is correct to say that my study is focused on one aspect of engine oil alone, and that is it's behavior as a coolant. I am watching my results closely, and that includes UOAs from Exxon.

Thanks again.

[RCSignals]

In hot climates, you are to use 20W-50 dino or xW-40/xW-50 synthetic oils in the Ford 4.6L SOHC/DOHC V8. By hot climates, I mean something that is similar to Kuwait/Saudi Arabia/Phillipines/Singapore/Australia (parts). Ask anyone what they use in a Falcon XR8 5.4L DOHC V8 in Australia or a Toyota 2.2L in Singapore. No one uses xW-20/xW-30 in hotter climates.

High precision engines in Europe also generally use synthetic xW-40/xW-50 with some exceptions on xW-30.


That's intersting Charlie, but I don't think any of us lives in those sort of hot climates. Except maybe SW desert, doesn't Ford still recommend 5W-20 there?

Are those Ford specs for hot climates?

[metroplex]

Those are Ford specs for the same engines used in those climates.
I have seen temps around 120F in Southern California... but it was out in the middle of nowhere.

My point is, a lot of this talk about "tight tolerance engines" NEEDING 5W-20 is a bunch of horse puckey. Even Toyotas and Hondas sold/used overseas in warmer climates are NOT using 5W-20. xW-20 is almost a USA thing. The Europeans tend to stick with full synthetic xW-30/xW-40/xW-50 oils due to varied temperatures (just like us) and I'd probably follow their recommendations rather than US specs which are adulterated by the EPA and CAFE.

I asked some of the Panther owners in the Middle East and they don't see 5w-20 for sale. i think they said xW-30 started coming in but the 4.6 mod engine has been sold there for quite some time.

I asked a few Toyota owners in Southeast Asia what they used, and their response was only 20W-50 dino was available, and most of the synthetics are xW-40 and xW-50 (15W-50/15W-40 for a toyota 2.2L I4). I forget which they used 15W-50 or 15W-40, but it was not 5W-20 or 5W-30.

Luckily the vehicle we abused in the desert was a rental. :eek:

[Tinaree]

How would ambient temps matter that much? The engine will run at about the same temp if the cooling sytem is working correctly. I wonder if their viscosity indexes are rated differently? Different additive properties?

BTW, Mobil1 meets or exceeds Waukesha's requirements for longevity and breakdown. I don't know if any other synthetic does. I doubt oils like Royal Purple have ever been tested by them though, so it might not always be a fair comparison.

I've been really impressed with Lubrication Engineers products in race cars, firearms, sewing machines and anything else mechanical. I used to be sold on synthetics, but this stuff completely destroys that paradigm.

[RCSignals]

How would ambient temps matter that much? The engine will run at about the same temp if the cooling sytem is working correctly. .........................

Exactly what I was wondering.

I'd like to see those specs for hot climates from Ford, printed on a Ford issued instruction.

The suggestion being made is that the use of 5W-20 doesn't really matter, 20W-50 would do as well. I rather doubt it would. In otherwords, I haven't been convinced.

[GreekGod]

Even the desert can get 20 degrees in the winter overnight. Midwest often sees below zero. Ford says 5W20 for a good reason. Why temp the gods? Do you know better than the engineers? NASA's engineers prove their trade is not prone to making mistakes.

[Amsoil_Dealer]

My point is, a lot of this talk about "tight tolerance engines" NEEDING 5W-20 is a bunch of horse puckey.

I agree with this statement. Our engines may run most efficiently on 5w20 but they don't NEED it to survive. The differences between a heavy 20 and a light 30 are simply not that significant. Plus, many oils that start out as a 20 weight often thicken to a 30 weight at some point in the drain interval.

Most agree that the 5w20 receommendation buy Ford was to bring the fleet average fuel economy figures up. I believe the fact that all 5w20s are either synthetic blends or group III synthetics (at least all of them were when the first 5W20s came out) is more significant in the overall strategy by Ford. These oils are more resistant to thermal breakdown than conventional 5W30s and thus Ford can bank on acceptable performance through the normal useful life of the car.

Don

[juno]

Just food for thought, the Kenne Bell site claims a 15 hp increase and 20 degree temp decrease using redline in engine/transmission/rear end.

From kennebell.net 4.6 2v tech info. (same info in 99-01 cobra info)

SYNTHETIC OIL


Red Line is the best we've ever tested. We've documented a 15HP gain and 20 degree temperature reduction from synthetic oil in the engine, trans and rear end. The next best choice is good old Mobile 1 Synthetic.

These guys are usually very thorough on testing stuff.

They also recommend 75% H20 25% glycol and water wetter for those of us who do not freeze. :)

Good ole S FL temps average mid to high 90's day and mid 70's at nite from May to October and a little cooler in the winter, so I think we could get by with a less thin oil down here.

[Tinaree]

I agree with this statement. Our engines may run most efficiently on 5w20 but they don't NEED it to survive. The differences between a heavy 20 and a light 30 are simply not that significant. Plus, many oils that start out as a 20 weight often thicken to a 30 weight at some point in the drain interval.

Most agree that the 5w20 receommendation buy Ford was to bring the fleet average fuel economy figures up. I believe the fact that all 5w20s are either synthetic blends or group III synthetics (at least all of them were when the first 5W20s came out) is more significant in the overall strategy by Ford. These oils are more resistant to thermal breakdown than conventional 5W30s and thus Ford can bank on acceptable performance through the normal useful life of the car.

Don
I will have to beg a difference here; the 4V needs proper viscosity to maintain proper cam chain tension. Now, that may have a lot of room for variance on the Mach1/MM head, but in the older B-heads it was essential. Roush did quite a bit of testing on these and insisted that oil viscosity was a major player because of this.

[SergntMac]

I'm concluding my study, I've learned what I wanted to know. Here's the data...

5W20 My standard enging oil of choice has been the 5W20 Motorcraft from my dealer, delivered in bulk. It's 1.99 per quart, and it produced 183 to 185 engine temps on a routine basis, like clockwork, 180 stat in place. In extreme conditions, like a blast down the 1320, temps would spike to no more than 190 degrees and return to 185 by the time I reached my pit. I like this oil, it performs well, it's stable, and inexpensive. When you change oil and filter every 2500 miles of so, cost is a factor too.

5W30 Quaker State, also delivered bulk from my local Jiffy lube at 2.49 per quart. Same qualities as the 5W20, except the temps pushed higher. Normal was 186 to 188, spikes to 197.

10W30 QS, bottled, 2.99 a quart. Heat ranges disappointing, average 190 to 195, spikes as high as 207.

10W40 QS, bottled, 3.49 a quart. Unacceptable performance, average temps 198-200, spikes to 210, one 235 noted in standing traffic.

Summary:
All I have changed here, is engine oil weight. My goal was to see if there was any relationship between oil weights and their affect on engine temperature, a topic not often mentioned when weights and blends are discussed.

Engine temps are critical and our MM engine is very sensitive to change. By keeping my temps in a stable and expected range with the right coolant blend (25% glycol/75% water, two pints of Water Wetter) I can maximize my SCT tune, boost, timing, spark and so on, and minimizing detonation. IMHO, detonation in it's most mild form, is not audible to most people. When you can hear it, it serious.

Detonation eats away at the piston top, around the crown of the piston where it's closest to the piston wall, holding the top ring in place. Once detonation is detected, the EEC will respond with a rich AFR to cool the charge, and a rich mixtures leave carbon behind. Therefore, frequent detonation leads to carbon build up in the combustion chamber, and this carbon will accumulate until you do something about it. Run hot enough and this carbon will ignite the fuel charge on it's own, and you have pre-ignition, which is deadly. You can survive detonation over the short term, such as a tank of bad gas. You will not survive pre-ignition, it's fatal. BTW, you OEM temp gauge will not respond to higher temps until above 235 degrees, Your tranny will misbehave before the gauge responds. Just an observation from the study.

I'm writing this in easy to understand terms, so, our less technical members will get a clue. I don't have any advice to attach here, run the weight and blend you are comfortable with. However, be aware that weight does play with temps, and if you run the wrong weight for your blend of choice, you may be writing your own prescription for a sick engine down the road, in the form of a check to the repairman.

My only suggestion is that clean oil is the best oil, and with my customary 2500 mile drains, the least expensive oil fits my program. IMHO, engine oils that cost 5-7 bucks per quart don't impress me. I have serious doubts of any benefit at all, other than extending mileage between drains which I disagree with.

My sincere thanks to you all for your guidance and suggestions, whether we agreed or not. This study is concluded and I'm back on my 5W20 bulk Motorcraft diet.

[2003 MIB]

Thanks Mac!

Especially the "easy to understand terms"- I like things simple.:beer:

[metroplex]

Just ask the Australian, Saudi Arabian, Kuwaiti, and Southeast Asian OHC engine drivers/owners what they use. There's no sense debating oil requirements based on arcane and stupid standards here.

I would put more faith in European oil standards and requirements though. They have a buttload more Group IV synthetics over there (Shell Helix, German Castrol 0W-30, etc...)

I use xW-30 group IV synthetics and never saw ECT readings above 205F because the fan kicks in at high speed. So the ECT jumps between 180F and 205F in the summer. I used to use dino 10W-40 and did not see any difference in temperature variation. Russ uses 10W-40 dino in his supercharged 4.6 2V V8. The transmission keeps busting but his engine runs fine.

None of the Quaker State oils in the US are Group IV synthetics. The European Quaker State is Group IV though, again, the Europeans have much better oil standards/requirements. Ford will do anything to squeeze out better fuel economy numbers, and with the high gas prices, it isn't a bad idea.

[Tinaree]

That's what I suspected. Just going by weight on the can isn't comparable between the markets.