Boost a pump setting?

[Bradley G]

What setting do you have your Boost a Pump at?
I did a few dyno runs this week and the air fuel was a bit lean.
The manual instructed to set the pump at 10.
After turning it up a bit the Air fuel got Richer.
I ended up leaving it set at 20, that is where my motor seemed happiest.
I sampled the A/F from the existing 02 bung(2nd one)
58* made 370 RWHP and 360 RWT low eleven A/F

[Zack]

Set it halfway and forget about it.

[Bradley G]

That is pretty close to where it is set now.

10-50 half would be 25.
I set it to 20, I did a pull at 25 and it was reading slightly rich.(High tens)

Set it halfway and forget about it.

[Smokie]

The BAP can change the voltage output to your fuel pump from +1 vdc to +5 vdc --- 10%=+1 vdc ---- 50%=+5 vdc In the literature that came with the BAP it does not mention a setting lower than 20% for use on a '03 Cobra with a 4" pulley and 9 psi.

Lidio/Trilogy recommend the setting at 10%=+1vdc, I believe the person most qualified to ask about this setting is Lidio, he is the one that created the special tune that the base Trilogy ships with.

The BAP is boost activated, if you simply increase pump voltage the excess fuel goes back to the tank, ask Lidio if he overrides the EEC looking for 30 psi of fuel, that was my fuel pressure at the rail at idle when I was n/a, have not checked it since the s/c.

[RF Overlord]

I hope Lidio will respond here, as I distinctly remember him tell me it should be set (at least in my case) to 30...he put it there and I've left it alone...

[Smokie]

I hope Lidio will respond here, as I distinctly remember him tell me it should be set (at least in my case) to 30...he put it there and I've left it alone...Yeah, now you got me scratching my head, the Trilogy manual page #51 states the "initial set for the controller should be put to 10".

That is were mine is 10, why use the word initial, it implies to be changed later.....to what......:confused:

[DEFYANT]

What pulley are you guys running?

I have the 3.2 w/ the BAP set at alittle over 35.

[Smokie]

What pulley are you guys running?

I have the 3.2 w/ the BAP set at alittle over 35.I don't remember the size, the black one that comes with the base T-Kit, makes 9.5 psi.

[Bradley G]

The stock pulley is 3.4"

Moving to a single size smaller pulley(3.2), Does not require a retune unless you have done other mods as well.This is what I remember Lidio telling me, several weeks back.


I don't remember the size, the black one that comes with the base T-Kit, makes 9.5 psi.

[DEFYANT]

What pulley are you guys running?

I have the 3.2 w/ the BAP set at alittle over 35.

Whoops!

:shake: :rolleyes: I have the 3.0 pulley.

:D

[BillyGman]

I've alwys left the BAP setting on 10, and my A/F ratio fluctuates throughout the RPM range from 11.8 to 1, to 13.1 to 1, and Lidio said that is just fine. I now have 24,000 supercharged miles on my Marauder with the setting on 10.

[Tallboy]

The BAP is boost activated, if you simply increase pump voltage the excess fuel goes back to the tank,

Not on a Marauder...returnless fuel system. :)

[BillyGman]

I sampled the A/F from the existing 02 bung(2nd one)
Are you saying that you've been taking the A/F ratio reading from the secondary 02 sensor bungs (after the cats???)???? :nono: If that's what you've been doing, then you can forget about those A/F ratio readings since they're not going to be accurate(must be taken BEFORE the cats, NOT after).

[Smokie]

Not on a Marauder...returnless fuel system. :)How is fuel pressure regulated then, by slowing down the pump?

[Bradley G]

That has not been my experience.
Are you saying that you've been taking the A/F ratio reading from the secondary 02 sensor bungs (after the cats???)???? :nono: If that's what you've been doing, then you can forget about those A/F ratio readings since they're not going to be accurate(must be taken BEFORE the cats, NOT after).

[martyo]

How is fuel pressure regulated then, by slowing down the pump?

In simple terms, yes.

[Smokie]

In simple terms, yes.I like simple.;)

[txmarauder]

That has not been my experience.When ever we would plumb for a/f readings for ford in their test vehicles we would sample from b4 the cat, between the first and second cat brick and after the cats. I guess you would have different formulas to figure each reading out.

[BillyGman]

That has not been my experience.Well, according to Lidio, it has been his. He was the one who told me during a phone conversation that taking A/F readings from a tailpipes sensor is NOT a good method, and that they should be taken before the cats. And I've heard that from others too. So it was my understanding that if it's taken from the seconday 02 sensor bunngs, then it wouldn't be good either, since that's after the cats. Why not just take your readings from the primary O2 sensor bungs, since they're before the cats?

BTW, you stated that while you had the BAP set at 10, your A/F ratios were too lean, however, you didn't mention what they were. Were they over 13:1??? If not, then that's okay according to Lidio, since the Trilogy S/Cer kit is intercooled. The guy who performed my Dyno TEST (NOT dyno TUNE) told me that my A/F ratio being 13.1:1 was waaay too lean, and he wanted to tune the car for me, to get it at 10.5:1 to 11.0:1. So I walked out of that place, and called Lidio, and Lidio said that he was wrong, and that would only be neccessary for it to be running pig rich like that if the Trilogy kit didn't come with an intercooler.

Hmmmm, something tells me that we've had this discussion before in another thread. Perhaps you didn't believe me the last time I wrote that, so maybe you still don't. If not, then good luck. As for me, I trust Lidio since he was the one who developed the tune for the Trilogy S/Cer kit in the first place, and he has been burning the tunes in the chips that come with the Trilogy kits ever since.

[Bradley G]

My A/F was over 14 at 6000 RPM according to the sniffer method(tailpipe sample)

That is why I increased the Boost-a-pump setting to 20.
It may read slightly leaner via the tailpipe method of sampleing the A/F compared to before the cats.
It has been my experience that the difference between tail pipe and pre Cat converters is insignificant.
I also discussed this topic at length with Lidio, I feel this method is fairly accurate and he seemed to agree.
I also believe, If advancing the timing,(as in a dynotune) this should be done before the cats.
Your results may vary.:D

[BillyGman]

.
I also discussed this topic at length with Lidio, I feel this method is fairly accurate and he seemed to agree.
Hmmm, that isn't what he told me. Oh, well........good luck....

[Smokie]

I recently had my car dyno, there was no tuning involved, my A/F ratio taken at the tailpipe was 11.3 at 6200 rpms. It was in the mid 12's during the majority of the rpm range.

Dennis looked at it and said it was very good, he also added that if the readings been taken before the cats it would have been richer by a factor of 1 across the the board

Example: 12.5 at tailpipe= 11.5 at bung before cat.

Just passing along this info, not intended for argument, just simply what I was told.

[FordNut]

I recently had my car dyno, there was no tuning involved, my A/F ratio taken at the tailpipe was 11.3 at 6200 rpms. It was in the mid 12's during the majority of the rpm range.

Dennis looked at it and said it was very good, he also added that if the readings been taken before the cats it would have been richer by a factor of 1 across the the board

Example: 12.5 at tailpipe= 11.5 at bung before cat.

Just passing along this info, not intended for argument, just simply what I was told.
We did it both ways on my last tune and that's about what we saw.

[Lidio]

The BAP from Kenne Bell is one of my favorite products because of how well they work and how reliable they are. All it is for a lack of better words is a voltage enhancer or amplifier. I’m not gona get into exactly how the BAP works or how the whole pulse width modulated return-less pumps work in the MM’s and most other Ford’s after 1999.
The reason I’m not gona explain it all is I truthfully don’t know all the technical jargon about both of these nor do I need to. I know what to change or adjust to make them work or not work and we go from there.

When the “return less fuel” systems started to surface in the mustangs in ’99 for us tuner shops that loved to install and tune blower cars it caused quite a tuning challenge because you couldn’t just add a traditional FMU (fuel management unit) to the return side of the fuel lines coming from the fuel rail back to the tank. The FMU basically would restrict fuel flow back to the tank under boost and cause the fuel pressure to raise way above the usual 40 or so psi, making the injectors think they were much bigger thus supporting the additional air flow of a blower. This was some what crude but did work very well, and FMU’s are still included to this day if you purchase for example a Vortech kit for a ‘98 or older mustang.

I still custom tune those cars and typically leave the FMU on, and just work with it and better fine tune the A/F and of course spark from with in the computer tables with a chip or flash. I typically only remove the FMU’s if the car has been stepped up to much bigger injectors like 42lbs instead of the 24 or 19’s that usually come on all Ford V-8’s. Some time’s even with really big injectors like 42’s and big motors that are supercharged applications, I still use FMU’s but open them up and recalibrate them to only raise the fuel pressure lets say 3to1 not 10to1 or 12to1 like their normally set up to do…. 3to1 meaning it will raise the fuel pressure 3psi for every 1psi of boost. I do this because maybe the guy should have bought or upgraded to a 60lbs injector and just didn’t for some reason. As long as the FMU doesn’t raise the fuel psi to high and keep the injectors from opening, FMU’s are not such a bad thing.

Sorry for that lengthy FMU thing but it leads to this…. When the return less fuel systems came out. Basically you cant just go throwing an FMU on the return less cars and all is well. They don’t have a return line to simply “pinch” off to enriching you’re A/F.
And the computer basically isn’t happy if the fuel pressure isn’t for the most part always at about 40spi whether your at WOT or normal driving. This is why return less fuel equipped cars always got an injector upgrade with your typical blower kit like 42’s…. Because you want to move more fuel at the 40psi you have to try to work with or that the computer try’s to keep it at.
Because return less fuel systems on Ford’s are some what sensitive to certain or after market fuel pumps this caused quite a challenge the first couple of years we started messing with the return less cars with blowers. And at that time the software we had didn’t give us access to all the fuel control stuff we needed and we didn’t fully understand it. Over the last few years we’ve learned to work with it quite well and have gone on to make some serious power with ether one or two pumps in the tanks of these newer Ford’s.

The number one reason the Trilogy kit comes with a BAP is convenience and packaging. And of course the A/F would be lean with out it a WOT. I wanted Jerry’s kit for the MM and future kits hopefully to not have to drop the gas tank and do a fuel pump change if it was possible. To me dropping the tank, especially on the MM’s is a huge pain in the ass especially for the guy doing it at his home during a self install, so I really tried to get by with out a pump change. The BAP is a basically a Voltage enhancer and what I found is that all you need to do is make sure the pump is getting a true 13.5 to 14 volts when under WOT conditions and that’s all it took to satisfy the A/F’s that I wanted to see for the Trilogy MM kit.

Because most automotive 12 volt electrical accessory’s are actually rated for the most part to work at just over 14 volts, you’d be surprised how happy and good fuel pumps work when a BAP is added and you set it to just make sure that the pump is getting 14-15 volts… the difference is really some thing. On my own MM when I first installed my Trilogy kit, I also went to an aftermarket larger double pass intercooler heat exchanger out in front behind the grill. It seemed that my MM and only mine with this larger heat exchanger never seem to pump the coolant fast enough through the reservoir where you could see how fast it was flowing. I actually installed a BAP on the intercooler pump motor and watched it really start to flow when I bumped up the BAP knob. Its still on there to this day working great.

By turning the BAP knob up, it doesn’t always make the A/F richer, it just makes it easier for the computer to keep the fuel psi where it wants to see it. Once again typically around 40psi. The reason you don’t want to unnecessarily turns the BAP knob up to high is that when it kicks in under boost, you could potentially feel a surge or see and feel a spike when the BAP instantly raises the voltage to the pump and then the computer takes a second to stabilize and bring the fuel psi back to where it wants to see it. Unfortunately though you need to raise the BAP knob pretty high when you really start to raise boost because the computer has a harder time keeping the fuel psi where it wants as the tuner person starts to command more fuel at WOT through the base fuel table or MAF when it goes open loop.

When you start to make more then about 440 RWHP with a MM, we then step up to the now famous Focus Fuel pump…. Which is a bolt in for most Ford’s, and because of its design it doesn’t cause any compatibly problems with the computer and works very good also when coupled to a BAP, and appears to be pretty good to about 500 RWHP with 42lbs injectors and over 550 with 60lbs injectors.
When at or near 550 RWHP we then go to twin ‘03-‘04 Cobra pumps and then that’s about it up to about 625 RWHP. Around here, even though other say it will work staying return less, we then switch back to a return style system with much bigger external fuel pump or pumps.

On a relatively stock Trilogy install on a MM and the BAP is set to where the manual states, the A/F at WOT is safe and shouldn’t be questioned. Especially if the A/F is being tested after the cats or with a tail pipe sensor. The tune intestinally keeps it at a slightly lean 13 to 1 at WOT till about 3500 to 4000 rpms. Then from there it ramps it down to about 11.5 -- 11.9 to 1. There is enough room to do the 3.2” pulley with out a computer tuning change as long as you trust your local premium fuels and it’s 92 or better. As I’ve said before you can do the 3.2” pulley change or a complete filter kit like the K&N one I like, but I don’t recommend doing them both together with out looking at the A/F ratio or basically having the tune properly checked and adjusted.
If you have an 04 MM with a Trilogy, I do have a tune sorted out for those that supports the 3.2 pulley and the K&N filter kit. I 've done this with 03's too but not oficially offered it. I wanted to wait till I did a couple more to make sure every thing repeats.


Thanks

[BillyGman]

Thanks for chiming in on this topic Lidio. And what you've stated about where the A/F ratio is on the Marauders with the standard 9.5 PSI pullies, IS in fact exactly how it is with my Marauder according to the A/F ratio test I had done via a threaded bung that was welded BEFORE the driver's side cat. Just like you've stated, it goes to 13.0-13.1 at around 4,000 RPM's, and then as the RPM's climb higher, it ends up going to 11.8......

[Bradley G]

Thanks for the education, Lidio.

My A/F does not reflect the pattern you mention.
It is at the leanest point, higher in the rpm range.

[FordNut]

Thanks for the education, Lidio.

My A/F does not reflect the pattern you mention.
It is at the leanest point, higher in the rpm range.
My guess would be that you're going lean up top and should turn up the BAP just a little bit. If you're using the boost switch that comes with the kit as per the instructions, you can't turn it up too much because it causes a presure spike when the boost comes on which is hard for the PCM to compensate for. Lots of Mustang BAP users short out the boost switch inputs so it stays on all the time. Notice the BAP instructions even mention the option of doing this. That gives a higher voltage to the fuel pumps all the time and allows the PCM to control the fuel pressure as it normally would.

[BillyGman]

Thanks for the education, Lidio.

My A/F does not reflect the pattern you mention.
It is at the leanest point, higher in the rpm range.I still say that it's time for you to begin taking A/F readings from BEFORE that cats, before you go making changes. But to each his own.

[txmarauder]

I still say that it's time for you to begin taking A/F readings from BEFORE that cats, before you go making changes. But to each his own.
Bad Billy:nono: , You already gave your advise once. Let him do what works for him.

[BillyGman]

On a relatively stock Trilogy install on a MM and the BAP is set to where the manual states, the A/F at WOT is safe and shouldn’t be questioned. Especially if the A/F is being tested after the cats or with a tail pipe sensor.
I harped on my veiwpoint, because I think that someone might be overlooking what Lidio stated in the quote above^

[Lidio]

My guess would be that you're going lean up top and should turn up the BAP just a little bit. If you're using the boost switch that comes with the kit as per the instructions, you can't turn it up too much because it causes a presure spike when the boost comes on which is hard for the PCM to compensate for. Lots of Mustang BAP users short out the boost switch inputs so it stays on all the time. Notice the BAP instructions even mention the option of doing this. That gives a higher voltage to the fuel pumps all the time and allows the PCM to control the fuel pressure as it normally would.





Your right about some people wring in the BAP so that it runs full time. It’s the only way we do it now as well.
This is a procedure that I didn’t want to talk about because we switched to this about 10 months ago on all BAP installs. The reason I didn’t want to talk about it is I don’t want people who already have BAPs installed to think that there is a better way out there and then watch every one run out to their cars and try to make a change or start calling me and start with the “why this” and “Why didn’t you tell us that” thing. The way that the Trilogy manual does it is fine and will stay that way for ever, because it works and has no problems at all. Even when you start to crank up the blower boost and crank up the BAP knob, for the most part when the BAP kicks in, it’s pretty seamless.

Truthfully the very key reason we started to wire in the BAP to run full time and in such a fashion is what I call the “BEFORE” method. First the reason for this is we no longer run the trigger wiring from the trunk to engine bay because we simply short the BAP “turn-on” wires to let the BAP go into amplifying mode full time. This saved us install time. Second when the BAP is wired to run full time and is plumbed in before the “fuel pump controller module”…. The computer/module thinks is simply working with a higher incoming voltage to begin with and still goes on to control the fuel pump very normally. As long as the pump isn’t to weak and/or not up to the task your demanding it to do, this method works very good, but no different in terms of performance then the way the Trilogy manual wants it done.

There are some people out there who argue that installing the BAP in the “before” method can cause a voltage drop to the pump controller and the pump its self, because the BAP is an electrical device and its components will absorb some juice. This may be totally true. But for us this has not proven to be a problem on some 35+ cars and truck in the last few months. What we found is that when using the popular focus pump and the BAP wired in the “before” method on all supercharged Ford’s, this way proven so far to have no long term problems and perfect compatibility with the computer and all of its pump controlling features. In fact if you run unleaded fuels, the focus pump, BAP and 60lbs injectors will support about 500 RWHP with ease… and if you run Leaded fuel this combo will support up to about 550 RWHP.

I’m not totally sure why but when switching to pure leaded race fuels like the popular 110 leaded Turbo-Blue in our area, your existing EFI fuel system will support about 10-15% more RWHP. I’ve seen this a ton in the last few years. Some thing about the properties of the leaded fuel, either makes the engine need less of it (fuel) in the combustion chamber or the fuel its self simply makes the injectors flow better and pumps work better? Not sure but I have to lean out all the cars that run the leaded 100 stuff every time.

I now have two local 03 Cobra’s that run on pure leaded 110 octane fuel that are seeing 650 RWHP with the stock twin pumps in the tank, a BAP and 60lbs injectors and absolutely nothing else done to the fuel system.. No larger lines from the tank forward, no larger wire from the Battery box leading back to the pump controller, plus stock fuel rails, none of that stuff that most people will argue we should have done by now.
Because I’m quick to force people to run leaded race fuels in applications like this, regardless of what you read or hear can and should have been done with 93 pump unleaded fuels. These cars along with several others near this RWHP level run very good, and because of how I watch true A/F readings, these seem to show no signs of the trouble that a lot of other tuners run into with these cars at this level of RWHP.
If you know any one who’s hurt the dam near bullet proof bottom end of an 03-04 Cobra when starting to make over 500 RWHP with one of these… Asside from runing it with no oil, the owner and/or the tuner have made a serious mistake with tuning and octane, Period!!!

[Jerry Barnes]

Lid,

Thanks for taking the time to post the response to this question. As usual, great job!

Jerry

[Bradley G]

Ditto, What the Guy with the World record said^^^
Great read
Lid,

Thanks for taking the time to post the response to this question. As usual, great job!

Jerry

[Tallboy]

My car has it wired in like the manual instructs. I cannot "feel" the boost-a-pump kick in, even after reading this thread and paying attention to try and "catch" it.

I doubt I'll re-wire mine, as Lidio said, it's fine the way it is.

[BillyGman]

My car has it wired in like the manual instructs. I cannot "feel" the boost-a-pump kick in, even after reading this thread and paying attention to try and "catch" it.

I doubt I'll re-wire mine, as Lidio said, it's fine the way it is.Ditto....mine too.