Electric Water Pumps...

[metroplex]

Just a FYI:

http://forums.modulardepot.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=72084

[metroplex]

Some of their views on the Meziere:


Right now, I see it as $350 I'd like to have back in my pocket.

mine cost me a race and almost cost me an engine

The problem is that its electric, not mechanical.
I didn't say any of those comments!

Here are my comments:
Mechanical pump: $70, generally will last 100k miles to 200k miles or more.
You can buy 5 pumps for the price of a Meziere. That's about 1 million miles worth of water pumps, if you can drive 1 car that long!

[BruteForce]

Mine works great. No problems with miles of smiles.

[Joe Walsh]

Some of their views on the Meziere:




I didn't say any of those comments!

Here are my comments:
Mechanical pump: $70, generally will last 100k miles to 200k miles or more.
You can buy 5 pumps for the price of a Meziere. That's about 1 million miles worth of water pumps, if you can drive 1 car that long!
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I haven't had any problems with mine and it has been on for almost two years. (although my MM is NOT a daily driver, it probably has more '1/4 mile' mileage than road mileage)
There is a monitoring system available for the meziere electric pump which will warn you of a failure before engine overheat/damage.
I will probably be adding this monitor this winter.

[Cobra25]

I have mine now for 14 months & put on 9750 miles and no problems also. I also have a monitoring system lite so if the pump dies I'll know it.

[FordNut]

Yep, it's like so many of the so called "problems": a few vocal naysayers getting press time compared to many successes being ignored. Mine works great. And I saw one instance where a Mach 1 lost an engine because it didn't have one when it threw a belt and overheated. Woulda saved the engine if it had an electric pump.

[metroplex]

No one here seems to have logged enough miles on the Meziere to really push the envelope on its reliability.

Randy Stinchcomb is a big-time drag racer and a Ford parts dealer (want cheap Ford/Motorcraft parts? You can order from him). If he said he almost lost an engine, he really almost lost an engine. He knows his stuff.

A high-current 12V pump isn't a good idea for overall reliability. A better solution would be a 36V/42V electric water pump. There would be less current demand and less chance of something failing from overheated wiring or the motor.

The Mach 1 owner was just stupid. Even if he had a Meziere he would have overheated. Once he drained his 50 A-h battery, the pump wouldn't have had any juice because the alternator wasn't charging. However, the first clue should have been apparent when he lost power brakes and power steering (Hydroboost brake assist). Remember the alternator? It's also run by the FEAD system. :burnout:

[Joe Walsh]

I guess the real test would be the failure rate....compare how many were sold vs. how many have failed.
Most people who buy a meziere are racers/gearheads who want that extra 9-10 hp that the meziere frees up. They are also people who run their cars hard.

[Blackened300a]

IMHO 9-10hp Isnt worth the $350 and the Risk

$350 buys you a good Dyno Tune or UD Pullies, a Cold Air induction, or a New Set of Rear tires!

[FordNut]

A high-current 12V pump isn't a good idea for overall reliability. A better solution would be a 36V/42V electric water pump. There would be less current demand and less chance of something failing from overheated wiring or the motor.:

I doubt the 36/42 v pump would work on today's cars. And as many of us have mentioned there are lots of other electric motors on the car, some drawing more current than the water pump, and there isn't a reliability issue with them.


The Mach 1 owner was just stupid.

Well, I reckon you must be right.

Aren't you an electrical engineer? And you're down on reliability of electric motors, promote mechanical pumps and such? Are you sure you didn't go to the wrong classes? If I didn't have any more confidence than you do in my industry, I'd think about a change.

[Joe Walsh]

The thing that I really like about the Meziere is that I can run it for 9-10hp PLUS an underdrive crank pulley, and still get full coolant flow at idle.

I can also keep it running for a few minutes after a 1/4 mile drag run when I shut down the engine.

[Warpath]

Mechanical and electric pumps each have their advantages and disadvantages. Both can fail. Some people say they get 10-15 hp gain with the electric pump. I've only read one before and after test on the same dyno and the same day. He only gained 3 hp. I bought one though (mostly impulse buy). I'll be getting the monitor too next spring for peace of mind (hopefully they're still around).

[FordNut]

Mechanical and electric pumps each have their advantages and disadvantages. Both can fail. Some people say they get 10-15 hp gain with the electric pump. I've only read one before and after test on the same dyno and the same day. He only gained 3 hp. I bought one though (mostly impulse buy). I'll be getting the monitor too next spring for peace of mind (hopefully they're still around).
You didn't read my post on MM.net then. I gained 12 rwhp. Same dyno, same day.

Kathy (Marauderchick) did the same and gained 10.

We've both put many trouble-free miles on our cars since going with the electric water pump.

[Donny Carlson]

No one here seems to have logged enough miles on the Meziere to really push the envelope on its reliability.

Mine went on at 20,000 miles, had 58,900 at trade, zero problems and the car ran cooler with the Meziere (digital water temp gauge). Daily driver.

[metroplex]

Mine went on at 20,000 miles, had 58,900 at trade, zero problems and the car ran cooler with the Meziere (digital water temp gauge). Daily driver. Still not enough miles. When several people can honestly say they logged over 100k problem free miles (per person) on the Meziere, it would be a better indicator. It doesnt have to be a Marauder, just any 4.6/5.4 Ford. Mechanical pumps typically last 100k-300k miles.

FordNut: Current draw isn't the only thing. HEAT is the other big factor. The fuel pump draws a decent amount of current and runs all the time but the fuel cools it off. The electric water pump would be operating at around 215F ambient, coupled with the current demand on a 12V system, is a recipe for more failure in a worst case scenario. A 36V/42V pump would run just fine in a 36V/42V system. Assuming comparable power dissipation/consumption, the current draw is reduced by approximately 3 times. That also means the internal windings and what not should run slightly cooler than before, but you still have the ambient 215F.

Back to your Mach 1 example: If your Marauder throws a belt or breaks the belt, you are SOL as well because once your car battery is drained, your pump turns off as well (alternator is no longer running to charge the battery). Also depending on the current demand of all the accessories at the time, the electric water pump may not even be operating at 100% due to the lower voltage...
Mechanical pumps can fail, but I rarely hear of bearings seizing unless it was improperly installed or it was a manufacturing defect. $70 to replace, and you're bound to hear/see it start dying before it actually dies! The E-150 we had was running on a malfunctioning water pump. It ran like that for 6 months until we swapped out the water pump to see if it helped. The tell tale sign was the coolant temp gauge needle was higher than normal. Sometimes you can hear the bearings whine.

[Todd TCE]

I've been kicking around one of these for the SHO motor for some time now. It's always come back to the hot and cold comments on them. *No pun intended!

I see the main benefit of post run cool down vs any HP gains. The numbers above sound favorable however. I'd not do so well there as the current belt set up is pretty clean. On a street motor with more bells and whistles I guess the gains can be higher. My concerns have also been slowing down the water rate. Can these pumps be regulated with regard to flow rate?

[FordNut]

FordNut: Current draw isn't the only thing. HEAT is the other big factor. The fuel pump draws a decent amount of current and runs all the time but the fuel cools it off. The electric water pump would be operating at around 215F ambient, coupled with the current demand on a 12V system, is a recipe for more failure in a worst case scenario. A 36V/42V pump would run just fine in a 36V/42V system. Assuming comparable power dissipation/consumption, the current draw is reduced by approximately 3 times. That also means the internal windings and what not should run slightly cooler than before, but you still have the ambient 215F..
The particle accelerators I work with have many electric motors in them. They face exposure to high neutron and gamma radiation fields as well as high temperatures. A durable electric motor can be designed and built.

Based on your comments we should all go remove our electric fans and convert to the old style with the fan connected to the water pump. And the underhood environment should have contributed to a short lifetime on the motor connected to the compressor on the air suspension of my '88 MkVII with almost a quarter million miles, but it is still using the OEM compresssor.


Back to your Mach 1 example: If your Marauder throws a belt or breaks the belt, you are SOL as well because once your car battery is drained, your pump turns off as well (alternator is no longer running to charge the battery). Also depending on the current demand of all the accessories at the time, the electric water pump may not even be operating at 100% due to the lower voltage...
The Mach 1 example: the car was making over 500 rwhp. It made a pass down the 1/4 mile and threw the belt at about the 1/8th. The driver continued to the first turnoff and returned to the pits. There was enough residual heat in the engine to cause the cooling system to burp out a portion of the coolant. The belt was replaced and the engine then overheated during subsequent driving and killed the motor. There was plenty of power in the battery to run an electric pump as well as any other electrical accessories.

[RVT04]

As always i learn from this site.
i have an electric pump on my mm and also an led in the guage bezel to wake me up when it fails, notice i said when it fails, because all things fail sooner or later, depends on use/abuse- who put it together and when and with what materials, on a friday or a monday , stoned or sober etc.
I'll let you know when mine lays down on me, maybe that will help someone else decide, i have the mechanical in the box ready to put back on until i can get another meizere!
The man that put this pump on my car recommended it for several reasons and i trust him in his judgement and ability.So i made a choice based on faith and performance. Also have the rear engine cooling kit for the same reason.
For the ultimate documentation- on a fine summer day in August in Ft.Worth after a grueling 1 hr. in freeway traffic to go 16 miles from work to home with the outside temp displaying 104 I pulled into my carport, popped the hood with my mm idling and took readings with a calibrated infared temp therm. that we use at work to read the temp. differentials on our steam systems: you know before and after traps and regulators and condensate return drops etc.
front of heads-both sides 178 f.
middle of heads-under valve covers near exhaust 179 f.
middle of heads-top near manifod 180 f.
back of heads-where i could get the dot on em 178 on one side 179 on the other
NOW THATS WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT! :D :D :D

[metroplex]

The particle accelerators I work with have many electric motors in them. They face exposure to high neutron and gamma radiation fields as well as high temperatures. A durable electric motor can be designed and built. ...but not at the prices you are paying for an electric water pump. Different applications and different specifications, you are comparing apples to oranges. The space shuttle uses electric motors. The Bradley also uses a big electric motor. But guess what? They're not $350 each nor are they designed to the same specifications as an electric water pump. :P

The electric fan does not operate 24/7 100% of the time. It's operation is intermittent, and you have air to help cool off the motor.
The fuel pump operates full-time but it is cooled by gasoline. That is why you should never run lower than 1/2 or 1/4 tank as it will reduce the lifespan of the fuel pump (make a turn, the gas swishes around and exposed the fuel pump just a tad).

And guess what? I have heard of plenty of fuel pump and electric fan failures within 50k-100k miles. Mechanical fan clutches can fail as well, and mechanical pumps can fail. But usually you will have some type of advance warning (as in days/weeks/months) before the mechanical parts fail whereas the advance warning you get from the electric motor is not advanced enough.

Mercedes will be using electric water pumps on a 42V bus in the near future along with electromechanical actuated valves, electric steering, electric brakes, electric throttle, etc... Have fun replacing the motors though. :help:But don't worry, you'll have a nice LED to tell you the electric steering is out. :eek:

[Dragcity]

It's comforting to know we all have choices....


I have always relied upon mechanical over electric, but we certainly have the technology to construct ANYTHING we want to. The stumbling block is cost of return. I stick w/ mechanical and pay attention to warning signs, 'cause with mechanical, there is almost always warning before complete failure. Not so with electical components.

Mind you I no longer race. I do take my MM on long trips daily for work. Reliabiliyt is key to me. I guess it all depends on what the individual is trying to accomplish, and at what price....

My pair of coins are in...

[Warpath]

As I stated previously, there are pros and cons for everything. It all depends on what risks the individual is willing to take. So, this arguement can go on without end since we're all stating opinions mostly. You can reduce the electrical failure risk with monitors. I also disagree with the statement that mechanical systems always give you a warning. My hydroboost is completely mechanical. Unknown to me, its back up function for when the engine stalls didn't work. I didn't find out until one day my engine stalled and left me with no brakes. It didn't squeel or smoke or anything before then.

[Dragcity]

No brakes, or you had to lay into them to get stoppage? In that scenario, your warning was..... Oh shill, no brakes.


Isn't that hydro-mechanical? (trying to save myself here)

Blew a brake line on my old '90 Lincoln TC one day. Oh what a feeling, pressing on a wet sponge and not slowing at all. Thank goodness for that mechanical parking brake. Got to dive it for two days until the weekend like that. Gotta love life on the edge...

[RF Overlord]

this arguement can go on without end since we're all stating opinions mostly.^^^what Warpath said^^^

[FordNut]

... you are comparing apples to oranges.
So how is my comparison different from the "36/42V" electric motor comparison you brought up? Apples to oranges, since the MM has a 12V system.

[metroplex]

Funny you should bring up electrical vs mechanical.

We're working on a device for a vehicle that is 100% solid state/electronic which is replacing a 100% mechanical device.
The electronic device costs 4 times as much as the mechanical device.

Sound familiar?

The electronic device also blows up (literally smokes/burns) if the electrical environment isn't squeeky clean.

The mechanical device that costs 4 times less, will take anything you throw at it and keep on chugging. The only time it "breaks" is when you have QC issues or you abused it during installation (Sound familiar)?

As an EE in the automotive field, I wouldn't put an electric water pump on any of my personal vehicles, EVAR.

[RF Overlord]

As an EE in the automotive field, I wouldn't put an electric water pump on any of my personal vehicles, EVAR.I think you've made that point abundantly clear... :rolleyes:

[metroplex]

So how is my comparison different from the "36/42V" electric motor comparison you brought up? Apples to oranges, since the MM has a 12V system.
Because your particle accelerator motors have 110% nothing to do with automotive systems, whereas the 36/42V bus IS in the near future for automobiles (Mercedes Benz for instance), and because electric water pumps ARE part of the package in that environment. Let's see, particle accelerators vs. automotive electric water pumps, yeah, I can see how they're related :rolleyes:

A 12V bus may be kept in the 36V system just for legacy systems to save on costs for adapting the new technology. I.e. have a 12V bus for lighting (not many vendors produce 36/42V lighting), car stereo, etc.. and reserve the 36V bus for high power devices:
electric steering, electric brakes, electric water pump, intake/exhaust valve solenoids, etc... You know, all that fancy new stuff over the horizon for cars that consumers can purchase. What is Grandma going to do with a particle accelerator electric motor? :help:

[metroplex]

I think you've made that point abundantly clear... :rolleyes: I do not recall ever saying I was in the automotive field except for this thread. In the previous thread I just said I was an EE IIRC. You can remove that "abundantly" part of your comment. :bandit:

It's great that a lot of people here can afford to experiment new products with their cars. It gives other car owners good intel on what to buy or what not to buy! :burnout:

[FordNut]

Because your particle accelerator motors have 110% nothing to do with automotive systems, whereas the 36/42V bus IS in the near future for automobiles (Mercedes Benz for instance), and because electric water pumps ARE part of the package in that environment. Let's see, particle accelerators vs. automotive electric water pumps, yeah, I can see how they're related :rolleyes:
:
Electric motors in a harsh automotive environment vs electric motors in a harsher industrial environment. Sounds like an accurate comparison to me.

And when did any of us decide to get a Daimler product? We are a MARAUDER group and all the MARAUDERS ever produced have 12V systems. So that looks like apples and oranges to me.

[Warpath]

.
All right fellas - Play nice nice. No need to get all worked up.



No brakes, or you had to lay into them to get stoppage? In that scenario, your warning was..... Oh shill, no brakes.

Isn't that hydro-mechanical? (trying to save myself here)...

It first happened on a smaller street as I was heading for the stop light. When I hit the brakes, it barely slowed down. I was fortunate enough to get the engine started and the brakes returned. So, after that, I kept a several car distance between me and the car in front of me. I replaced the hydroboost and when it stalls, I have brakes. So, all is good now. Also, the engine hardly ever stalls anymore.

Anyway, mods generally put something else at risk. Supercharges & juice shorten engine life, bigger wheels and lowered suspension can shorted suspension life, etc. Its the price you pay to play. All that is important is to know the risks a mods creates.

[RVT04]

.
All right fellas - Play nice nice. No need to get all worked up.




It first happened on a smaller street as I was heading for the stop light. When I hit the brakes, it barely slowed down. I was fortunate enough to get the engine started and the brakes returned. So, after that, I kept a several car distance between me and the car in front of me. I replaced the hydroboost and when it stalls, I have brakes. So, all is good now. Also, the engine hardly ever stalls anymore.

Anyway, mods generally put something else at risk. Supercharges & juice shorten engine life, bigger wheels and lowered suspension can shorted suspension life, etc. Its the price you pay to play. All that is important is to know the risks a mods creates.
yeah i always was a mech over elect guy and never did like the pancake fan that relied on a therm to tell it when to run or not to run and would it run when it was told to etc. you know i wanted the fan to run when the engine did and that same basic gut says the same to me about the water pump and i may end up saying to myself "I told you so"! we shall see, today it is working well and the engine runs cool and now with all the package set up the way it is i need to get some bigger tires cuz i can't hook up at all at wot
so true to form one thing leads to another lol thanks for the input on my reply guys

[BruteForce]

Mine works great. No problems with miles of smiles.

Reviving this long dead thread to report that my electric pump started leaking recently. I'm getting it replaced with a stock pump.

[magindat]

I doubt the 36/42 v pump would work on today's cars. And as many of us have mentioned there are lots of other electric motors on the car, some drawing more current than the water pump, and there isn't a reliability issue with them.



Well, I reckon you must be right.

Aren't you an electrical engineer? And you're down on reliability of electric motors, promote mechanical pumps and such? Are you sure you didn't go to the wrong classes? If I didn't have any more confidence than you do in my industry, I'd think about a change.

Don't forget about duty cycle....