Very hard starting when cold...

[Sully008]

Hey everyone,

This'll be my first winter with the Marauder and I 've noticed that it's VERY hard to start when cold out. It's happened twice now. First time was after during the snow on Tuesday. I tried to remote start it after work and no go. I had to go out to the car and hold the key. It didn't start after the first attempt (held the key for 10 secs.). If finally started on the second one after putting my foot to the floor on the pedal.

So I figured it needed fuel line antifreeze. Put a bottle of that in yesterday and plugged in the block heater because it went down to -20ªC last night. The car sat overnight until 2 pm this afternoon and the same thing. The remote starter couldn't start the car. Had to go and hold the key for a couple of seconds.

I've heard that our high compression engines have trouble starting in the cold, but should it be this bad? That totally renders my remote starter useless if I have to go out in the morning and stick the key in to start it.

[Cheeseheadbob]

I'm having the same trouble with my remote start. I called the place that installed it and they said they could adjust it for cold starts. I don't know what that means exactly, but they seem to think they can fix the problem. Maybe you could do the same.
Hey everyone,

This'll be my first winter with the Marauder and I 've noticed that it's VERY hard to start when cold out. It's happened twice now. First time was after during the snow on Tuesday. I tried to remote start it after work and no go. I had to go out to the car and hold the key. It didn't start after the first attempt (held the key for 10 secs.). If finally started on the second one after putting my foot to the floor on the pedal.

So I figured it needed fuel line antifreeze. Put a bottle of that in yesterday and plugged in the block heater because it went down to -20ªC last night. The car sat overnight until 2 pm this afternoon and the same thing. The remote starter couldn't start the car. Had to go and hold the key for a couple of seconds.

I've heard that our high compression engines have trouble starting in the cold, but should it be this bad? That totally renders my remote starter useless if I have to go out in the morning and stick the key in to start it.

[Eric91Z]

I have had this problem with my remote start recently, too. I believe it is because it is so cold and it does take a little extra cranking on the first time after sitting. I know they can adjust the cranking time for the starter on the remote start. But once I actually got in the car, it started on the first try like it normally does.

[wchain]

How dirty is that air filter on your CAI?

[grampaws]

A fresh set of spark plugs might go a long way...
Holding the throttle down is clearing excess fuel
the plugs are probably a little fowled...
-20 I wouldn't want to start either...BBrrrr!!!:pooh:

[Sully008]

Hey guys,

Thanks for the replies.

Cheeseheadbob/Eric: I know I can go in and change how long the starter is engaged on my alarm as well, but I've never had to do that on the two previous cars it was in (Taurus/CV). I'll see what my friend says.

Wes: I put back the factory airbox/filter for the winter. The filter is brand new, so I don't think that's the problem.

grampaws: Thanks for the tip on the plugs. I've never checked them yet. 25000kms on the car so far. It's supposed to warm up this weekend, maybe I'll drop by my friend's dealership.

[CRUZTAKER]

There was a fix for cold starts on the early 300A's.
Ford part #3U7A-12A650-AMA, it was a software update via eec flash.

I am not sure if it applies to the B's or later builds.

[Sully008]

There was a fix for cold starts on the early 300A's.
Ford part #3U7A-12A650-AMA, it was a software update via eec flash.

I am not sure if it applies to the B's or later builds.

Thanks CRUZTAKER, I'll look into this as well. I guess I'd have to reflash back to the stock programming first for this to take effect? If I put the aftermarket tune back in after the fix, will the fix still be there?

[merc6]

should still be there after re-reflash

[snowbird]

Sully,

You might also look to change the fuel filter and be sure you gasup at a reputed reseller with high volume. People are fussy with gas price and premium fuel is sometimes not fresh. Not a good combination when it's minus 20.

When it's really cold, i'm not shure i would use remote start if i had one. I figure it's so easy to flood or miss the car at starting procedure, i'd prefer a human in a driver seat, cut every accessory and have both ears in the hunt for weird noise mode when i'm doing it. Just a thought.

[grampaws]

The air filter shouldn't affect anything..
The programming might have an effect if the car
was programmed to start too rich(to much fuel)...
If You drive lots of short trips in the cold and boy it sounds
cold the plugs may not be hot enough to burn of the carbon
and getting fowled..soaks up fuel on a rich cold start and shorts
out the spark..the fuel filter shouldn't need changing. if you have to hold
down the gas pedal to clear a flood type situation..there is lotsa fuel..
The good/high volume gas scenario makes sense..

[merc6]

winter gas mix isn't any better...

[grampaws]

fresh winter gas is better than old(or last years winter gas)!

[Shankin]

My dads car did the same thing and it was a sticking iac. this is a very common problem with akot of fords.

[wchain]

The air filter shouldn't affect anything..
The programming might have an effect if the car
was programmed to start too rich(to much fuel)...
If You drive lots of short trips in the cold and boy it sounds
cold the plugs may not be hot enough to burn of the carbon
and getting fowled..soaks up fuel on a rich cold start and shorts
out the spark..the fuel filter shouldn't need changing. if you have to hold
down the gas pedal to clear a flood type situation..there is lotsa fuel..
The good/high volume gas scenario makes sense..


If its filthy and clogged, a oiled filter certainly wont help cold starting.

[Rider90]

A fresh set of spark plugs might go a long way...
Holding the throttle down is clearing excess fuel
the plugs are probably a little fowled...
-20 I wouldn't want to start either...BBrrrr!!!:pooh:
I don't think this is something that can be done on a Fuel-Injected vehicle, can anyone else chime in on that?

[TripleTransAm]

I don't think this is something that can be done on a Fuel-Injected vehicle, can anyone else chime in on that?

Apparently works even BETTER on a fuel injected vehicle than on carb'ed vehicles. On carb'ed vehicles that are cold, the choke blade is obviously fairly closed in order to induce the ultra-rich starting mixture but if the car floods while starting, holding the pedal to the floor should (if everything is in proper lubed working order) force the choke blade open to allow a leaner mixture to 'clear out' the flooded cylinders while cranking.

For FI cars, the ECM/PCM detects that you have it floored while cranking and decides you are trying to clear a flooded situation. So the injectors are cut (or feed only minimal amounts of fuel) during cranking to allow for an almost-pure-air mixture to clear out the cylinders. Normally the cylinders will dry out to the point where some cylinder begin to fart to life, at which point you can back off and the injectors will resume normal firing. All controlled by the computer! Much more reliable than the complex linkages required to produce this function on a carburetor.

[RF Overlord]

^^^what 3TA said^^^

[Sully008]

Hey all,

Thanks for the replies. I try and buy my gas from the "Big 3" here (Petro Canada, Shell, Esso) usually PC 'cause they add fuel line antifreeze in the winter. I also buy from my local Co-Op station because we get some sort of kickback at the end of the year.

I'll have to think about getting up when it's -35ºC to try and start the car. In the 3 years I've had this starter in 3 different cars, I've only had to go out and crank the key maybe 3 or 4 times in the past. It's usually that reliable, even in the really cold.

Just a thought, what do you think about the battery? I know efficiency drops when temperature drops. Maybe I need to put a battery warmer in? (Although it seemed like there was plenty of juice when cranking over.)

[TripleTransAm]

I noticed you picked up your car this past spring. Original battery? If so, I'm surprised. My original battery was replaced under warranty after just 9 months. This is not what I'm used to (I just replaced my WS6's original battery 2 months ago due to sudden catastrophic failure - not bad after 7 solid years of abuse, never charging it up over the winter storage months).

Low battery output is actually the culprit for one of the total TWO times my 1st Marauder did not fire up on the first try with the remote starter. On both times, it started up on the second attempt. (the second occasion was due to that 2-short-startups in succession scenario I described in another thread about smoking at startup).

Next time you're in that scenario, try to time the starting attempts and post the results here. We'll be able to say for sure whether the autostarter is giving up too soon or whether it's a deeper problem. Given that you say the car manually starts fine, it could be the autostart giving up too soon.

You mentioned the car finally started with your foot to the floor, which would indicate a flooded condition. This can happen even with manual starts if your cranking intervals are too short. I hate to sound sexist but do you know how many ladies I've seen flood their cars on a start attempt by jumping in and cranking for a total duration of 1 second then stopping (for whatever reason) then trying again for 1 second and stopping again and so on?

So in my opinion, a weak battery coupled with an optimistic auto start will get you flooded fairly often in cold cold cold weather (the above ultra-short start scenario will flood you in hot weather, too!). If I was you, I wouldn't touch the auto-start but instead look into a replacement good quality battery (my Ford replacement battery seems to have done alright so far).

I've ragged on my first Marauder's quality issues, but one thing I've never had a complaint about was its frigid-temp starting capabilities. It never let me down EVER in that regard.

[Sully008]

TTA- AFAIK, it's the original battery. My friend did mention something about it when I first picked up the car, though. I'll have him load test it to see if it'll pass the cold winter test.

The crank time on the remote starter is pretty short. I don't remember the exact hold time. I'll have to put it on the scan tool and see how long it holds the starter for. I might just have to increase it by a tenth of a second or so.

Thanks for everyone's help and suggestions!

[Sully008]

Okay, here's an update on my situation.

The car had a hard time starting AGAIN one morning. It wasn't even that cold out (the low that night was -14ºC) and it was plugged in. Had to do the same procedure, crank the car, put the foot to the floor.

I went and did a load test on the battery and it passed. So apparently no problem there. I also increased the crank time on my remote starter from 0.8 secs to 1.2 secs. We'll see if that helps. If not, it's off to the dealer to have the software updated.

[Mike M]

If the air filter is so dirty that is impeding air flow it would make it richer (more fuel) which is what a cold engine really wants and at cranking there is so little air flow that it just wont make a difference.
If the Fuel filter is clogged so bad that it doesn't deliver enough gas to start an engine then it certainly won't let you drive down the road after it warms up.
The plugs and possible fuel quality make the most sense here...I have 29 years of drivability diagnosis experience so believe what I say!

[grampaws]

I don't think this is something that can be done on a Fuel-Injected vehicle, can anyone else chime in on that?
It does work on FI vehicles 1/4 to 1/2 throttle when cranking
is the method used to clear a flood condition.. when the computer
detects the throttle being depressed during start it reduces the
fuel sent to the cylinders...WOT is not recommended..
bad plugs..too much fuel or not enough air..or the fuel is not atomizing properly.
change plugs
change fuel
IAC Idle Air Control could be at fault if it is not opening properly
it could be part of the flooding problem...
the dealer can run actuator tests to see if something is not working properly...
mine sat for 2 weeks at minus 12 started fine remote starts second attempt..
it was not plugged in..
The dealer will be able to provide any information regarding the programmable parameters
if anything regarding cold starting can be changed..
stock programing should work..
http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?t=20700&page=2&highlight=iac

post numer 20 has pic of IAC...

[grampaws]

If its filthy and clogged, a oiled filter certainly wont help cold starting.
Plugged sure but he hasn't had the car that long...and he
had a newer Perf filter...
I have used oiltreated K&N's for years no problems( even at -30)
(last 6 cars) I believe he was questioning if his aftermarket
filter itself would affect starting..answer no!!

[Sully008]

Hey all,

Thanks for all the suggestions everyone. I just wanted to give another update. It seems all is well now.:confused:

It's been about a week since the last time my car had a hard time starting. The only things I did once it got colder out was remove the CAI and put the factory airbox/filter back, added gasline antifreeze, and increased the crank time on my remote starter from 0.8 secs. to 1.2 secs.

It's been cold for the last week, temps going down to -20ºC overnight, colder conditions than when the car started showing these symptoms. But I'm happy to report that the car has been starting fine, even when it went down to -22ºC last night. It fires up just as easy as when it was warm out. Of course, I have no idea what's changed, because I've done nothing different since.:confused: We'll see when the really cold (-35ºC) hits and how the car responds.

[metroplex]

Crappy fuel is the most likely cause.

[TripleTransAm]

While I'm no fan of oiled filters, I'd say it was the crank time.

My 2nd MM has done this 3 times so far. Twice I've witnessed it in person. It'll crank once for a really brief time (under a second, for sure) and then stop and wait and retry. On the second attempt it'll catch right away. In contrast, my 1st MM cranks too long, and hence has never had to crank more than once (except for the time the battery died, and the time the car 'flooded' on restart due to having started and shut it off too soon).

As temps begin to drop around here, I'm starting the car manually at first so that I get a good feel for the condition of the battery and charging system. Once I feel confident with this aspect, I'll begin to see if the remote starter brings on any problems. The sad part is that not being the first owner, I have NO documentation on the remote starter and hence no idea how to tweak it.

[Sully008]

While I'm no fan of oiled filters, I'd say it was the crank time.

My 2nd MM has done this 3 times so far. Twice I've witnessed it in person. It'll crank once for a really brief time (under a second, for sure) and then stop and wait and retry. On the second attempt it'll catch right away. In contrast, my 1st MM cranks too long, and hence has never had to crank more than once (except for the time the battery died, and the time the car 'flooded' on restart due to having started and shut it off too soon).

As temps begin to drop around here, I'm starting the car manually at first so that I get a good feel for the condition of the battery and charging system. Once I feel confident with this aspect, I'll begin to see if the remote starter brings on any problems. The sad part is that not being the first owner, I have NO documentation on the remote starter and hence no idea how to tweak it.

I'm guessing crank time as well. When I changed it to 1.2 secs, it had a much easier time starting. My car was doing what your 2nd one is now. Do you know the brand of starter it is, Steve? If it's a newer DEI piece, a local DEI dealer should have the electronic scan tool to see what the current settings are, and change them if necessary. If it's not, see if you can find a model # and I'll see what I can do. (I've got friends in the business)

[TripleTransAm]

I have no details about my own remote starter... no documentation I can find, I don't even know where the module is.

(pulling out the key fob from my jacket...)

All I see on the fob is an engraved logo, an oval with the word "POWER" written inside it in raised letters, with the 'O' bigger than the other letters and a lightning bolt through it. No contrasting colours, you have to reflect light off it to really see that logo... the entire surface of the fob is some 'carbon-fibre' pattern. As it is, had you asked me last week, I wouldn't have been able to even read this logo... just two days ago I discovered the sliding cover that covers the 4 functional buttons and exposes the logo as it slides 'shut'. Until then, I had no idea the buttons could be covered.

I am interested in knowing what else this thing can do for me. The buttons are listed as "lock/panic", "unlock/trunk", "start/stop" and "options". Judging by the function of the start/stop, I'd imagine the other alternate functions being a matter of hitting the button twice, but that doesn't seem to work, so I haven't figured out if I can use the panic feature or open the trunk. For the trunk, luckily I still have the original Ford fobs and they still work for the Panic and Trunk functions. I have no clue what "options" does, if anything.

There is also a slim blue button on the thin side of the remote. Hitting it makes the blue transmit light blinks as with all other buttons, which leads me to believe it can transmit something, but who knows what?

[Sully008]

Steve,

Could you take a pic of it and post it up? I'll be able to tell by the shape, etc. It sounds familiar, but I'd like to be sure.

Try pushing and holding the button down for lock/panic and unlock/trunk. That might activate the secondary function of those buttons. Options may not do anything.

[Sully008]

You know, now that I think of it, I don't think it's the crank time. I remember there was one morning I went out and started the car with the key and had a hard time. Metro - maybe it was bad gas, but I've just filled the car up this morning, so it was the same gas in the tank when it started working fine.

Maybe it was a matter of condensation in the fuel lines and it just took a while for the gasline antifreeze to make it through the system? Wouldn't that answer the hard starting question?

[TripleTransAm]

Could you take a pic of it and post it up? I'll be able to tell by the shape, etc. It sounds familiar, but I'd like to be sure.


Here you go.

cover open
http://www.tripletransam.com/mm/2005b/IMG_1492.jpg

cover closed
http://www.tripletransam.com/mm/2005b/IMG_1494.jpg

This morning, it did the 2-attempt thing again. 1 quick crank, pause, then another crank but the car fired milliseconds after the second attempt began.

Maybe you've a compound problem: too short crank attempt coupled with a week charging system? My 2nd MM's voltmeter shows a fairly low voltage when operating the wipers, lights, defroster and blower while in heavy traffic... my 1st MM did a lot better in the same situations (a lot of good it did... I still needed the alternator replaced last month. :censor: ).