Symptoms of a LSD going south?

[HwyCruiser]

Which is it, crappy traction on cold roads with the Nitto's or my LSD going south?

I've noticed while pulling out left on an intersection at moderate throttle - no boost, just goosing it a bit - that the left wheel is spinning (I assume) and getting a one wheel peel. Also I got on it and she wanted to point to the ditch on the right, which means the left wheel is grabbing, no? :confused:

If it is the LSD going, does anyone know the specifics on the Eaton posi I've heard good things about?

Thanks!

[Petrograde]

uhh,... LSD? :rasta: :bagpipe3: :chicken: :puke:

what does that stand for? ..I doubt you're talking about acid. :P

[jstevens]

Limited Slip Differential

[Petrograde]

DOH! thanks,... maybe I should hvae mas tequila?

[snowbird]

JD,

The stock Fords LSD as you call it can last from, say, 10 to maybe 60 000 miles IMO, depending on the way you drive.

I guess you are nearer 10 than 60 !:)

The clutchs are probably burnt to death. You can rebuild cheaper but better yet put a stronger aftermarket unit. I went classic Auburn because they never let me down before with my Mustangs but the Eatons are supposed to be better in the rain. Some more clickety racing rachet style are available if you can stand them. I prefer the "always on" and silent Auburn style for easy slow fishtails in the winter. Always gracious when properly done at low speed. The Auburns can stand a lot more abuse than the stockers.

[HwyCruiser]

I'm just shy of 41k miles, so it wouldn't suprise me that the diff is on its last legs.

Is the straight away one wheel peel the last breath for a LSD? Haven't hit that yet but there's always the track this Sunday, lol.

[snowbird]

Usually, their terminal way of telling is one right wheel only burnout on asphalt. Yes.

Shortly after, they do the same in the snow, meaning, even with virtual zero resistance of the snow, the clutches still don't bite anymore. At that point, it's officially dead. You can get a certificate and everything.

Also, you can jack the car with a fellaw inside givin it some gaz and a mecanic could, with proper security glove, just hold the driver side wheel in his hand. I went there a few years back. But kind of dangerous. Don't do it at home !! And also, carry a good shovel in the trunk. You're ready for some shoveling if you don't repair or upgrade.:)

[MENINBLK]

I don't believe you guys.

LSDs last longer than that if you maintain them like you are supposed to.
If you've NEVER changed the Rear Oil since you bought your Marauder,
if it goes on you, all I can say is you deserve it.

You want to play rough with these vehicles and maintain them
like your grandmother drives them, you are asking for trouble and quick.
Hard play deserves EXTREME MAINTENANCE !!!

[HwyCruiser]

The rear end fluid was changed last spring when the gears went in at 22k. What's the recommended service interval on the gear oil?

I asked my service manager this summer if I should have it changed annually and he said don't worry about it, the gear lube lasts 80k miles. Hard to believe he'd turn down the job.

[MENINBLK]

The rear end fluid was changed last spring when the gears went in at 22k. What's the recommended service interval on the gear oil?

I asked my service manager this summer if I should have it changed annually and he said don't worry about it, the gear lube lasts 80k miles. Hard to believe he'd turn down the job.

There is no service recommendation for the differential oil.
Ford says its supposed to last the life of the vehicle.
Ford's definition of life is 3yr/36,000 miles.
If you don't change it as often or more often, then you're not servicing it regularly.

I had a run in with my Service Manager a few years ago.
I had a 1995 Ford Escort Wagon.
The engine's timing belt was notorious for breaking between 45,000 and 60,000 miles.
When it did, it required a short block and a new head to repair it.

So when my Escort hit 50,000 miles, I asked my Service Manager to change the belt and the water pump.
He told me not to worry about it.
I asked him would he rather do the belt on MY DIME,
or do the engine on HIS DIME ???
He quickly agreed and the service was done.

There are 2 rules in service.

1, - The Customer is always right.
2 - When in doubt, follow rule #1.

[TripleTransAm]

Ford's definition of life is 3yr/36,000 miles.

:lol: And it only took me 3 yrs to figure that out for myself!



1, - The Customer is always right.

Not up here, he ain't.

Last spring I got my seat cover flap repaired (resecured) for the 3rd time. When vacuuming the car, I noticed tons of scratches on the front face of the leather seat cover (the area with the lumbar button). I mentioned this to the dealer, response: "oh, it must have been your winter boots or something". :censor: The way I treated this car? My boots scuffing up the seat cover?

Or my arguments of the factory front alignment (I had them use Ford specs when I bought the car, before I knew about the munching problem) destroying my front tires within 20 000 km.

And when I tried another dealership, I had to complain several times until they finally agreed that the hellish squeal from the front end was not solely due to a worn serpentine belt but from the tensioner and most likely one or more accessories (I said alternator and power steering). They replaced the alternator and tensioner and the noise went away, but I'm still suspecting a vibration is due to the power steering pump as I initially suspected - for my efforts, they even sold me a PCM calibration upgrade that addressed a problem I didn't complain about, and didn't do squat for what I DID complain about.

Or the myriad of other little common problems (even with TSBs available) that showed up mere 2000-3000 km after the basic warranty was up, and not only would they not cover it out of goodwill, the extended warranty didn't cover it as well (I got the Total Plus thing, not sure if it's from Ford or external). Did I learn my lesson... no more babying this next car, I'm beating the snot out of it until something breaks before the warranty is up.

[merc6]

Texas was the exact same. I took the damn TSB in and handed it to them and explained exactly what was going on. they was like cool then they was like managed said use techron and come back a couple tanks later. I was doing that already. They were like ok we need to do it again cause there is no reccord tha you ever told us this but now.

[hitchhiker]

Which is it, crappy traction on cold roads with the Nitto's or my LSD going south?

I've noticed while pulling out left on an intersection at moderate throttle - no boost, just goosing it a bit - that the left wheel is spinning (I assume) and getting a one wheel peel. Also I got on it and she wanted to point to the ditch on the right, which means the left wheel is grabbing, no? :confused:

If it is the LSD going, does anyone know the specifics on the Eaton posi I've heard good things about?

Thanks!


LSD

<TABLE class=prettytable style="MARGIN-LEFT: 1em; POSITION: relative" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=2 align=right border=1><TBODY><TR><TH colSpan=2>LSD</TH></TR><TR><TD>Chemical name (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IUPAC_nomenclature)</TD><TD><SMALL>D</SMALL>-Lysergic acid diethylamide
or:
<SMALL>(6aR,9R)-N,N-diethyl-7-methyl-
4,6,6a,7,8,9-hexahydroindolo
[4,3-fg]quinoline-9-carboxamide</SMALL></TD></TR><TR><TD>Chemical formula (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical_formula)</TD><TD>C<SUB>20</SUB>H<SUB>25</SUB>N<SUB>3</SUB>O</TD></TR><TR><TD>Molecular mass (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molecular_mass)</TD><TD>323.43 g/mol</TD></TR><TR><TD>Melting point (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melting_point)</TD><TD>80 - 85 &#176;C</TD></TR><TR><TD>CAS number (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CAS_registry_number)</TD><TD>50-37-3</TD></TR><TR><TD>SMILES (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simplified_molecular_input_lin e_entry_specification)</TD><TD><SMALL>O=[C@@](N(CC)CC)[C@H]
1CN(C)[C@](C2=C1)([H])
CC3=CNC4=C3C2=CC=C4</SMALL></TD></TR><TR><TD colSpan=2>http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/16/Lsd-structure.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Lsd-structure.png)
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>


Colors and Tracers and Trails - Oh My!

That color smells nice!

I hear purple!

:lol: :lol: :lol:

[Tallboy]

Put my new Eaton Posi in today. Here's why:

A few months ago, after installing a line-loc on my car, we "tested" it a Carfixer's house. She did a pretty decent burnout, with one exception: It was a "one-wheel-peel", as the left tire didn't move a bit. I knew then it was time to start thinking about an upgrade.

But, I was wondering, why so soon? At 14000 miles, we did the axle tsb and filled 'er up with fresh synthetic fluid. All seemed well, but I would find out soon enough my faith in the OEM unit was misplaced. Here we are at 23000 miles and the OEM unit was toast.

Burnt toast, that is. As the car went up on the lift, I noticed a rather wet-looking stain on the driver's side of the axle tube. Yep. You guessed it. Puking gear oil out of the vent. A sure sign of overheating. [And abuse.] When we popped the cover off, the 9000-mile-old synthetic fluid was completely burnt. Eesh.

Now, I fully realize this is totally my fault. The OEM unit was not designed to handle the additional power of the supercharger. I regularly drag race this car, and enjoy heating the OEM tires before each run.[yeah, yeah, I know. But it works for me.] That, coupled with a heavy right foot and a propensity for burnouts obviously fueled the fires of failure here.

Anyhow, the new Eaton Posi went in, along with new carrier bearings and fresh fluid. I kept the stock 28 spline axles, and added the recommended amount of LSD additive. Truly plug-n-play. No noise, no leaks, no whines, no problems.

Oh, by the way, when I say "I" put my new posi in, I mean "Carfixer installed it while I drank Diet Coke and supervised". Thanks again, bro...:beer:

[DEFYANT]

Thanks for the heads up. I'll be under the car tomorrow installing the Pro Guard thingy. I'll check out the Diffs vent line and fluid level.

Can you save me the search and post up what lube you used?

Thanks.

[shakes_26]

I agree.....for a stock powered car. The Ford 8.8 TrakLok LSD works well, and mileage varies as does the driving style, location (Urban vs hwy).

But add a supercharger (insert favorite brand here) and you've got another thing coming. You can try and rebuild the Ford unit with an extra friction plate and heqvier S spring, but it'll last about as long as if you jsut rebuilt it. Not long enough.

Either the Auburn or the Eaton are very stout aftermarket units. I wotn go into 28 vs 31 spline, thats for the big boys to fight about. My car as is will be going with an Eaton 28 spline, as I too am smoothing out my right rear tire waaay faster than the left...and the left rear has been getting wolloped too!


I don't believe you guys.

LSDs last longer than that if you maintain them like you are supposed to.
If you've NEVER changed the Rear Oil since you bought your Marauder,
if it goes on you, all I can say is you deserve it.

You want to play rough with these vehicles and maintain them
like your grandmother drives them, you are asking for trouble and quick.
Hard play deserves EXTREME MAINTENANCE !!!

[Tallboy]

Thanks for the heads up. I'll be under the car tomorrow installing the Pro Guard thingy. I'll check out the Diffs vent line and fluid level.

Can you save me the search and post up what lube you used?

Thanks.

Eaton recommends mineral-based 80w90 gear oil, NOT the synthetic fluid many [factory-unit-equipped] here use. I went to NAPA, and got a few quarts of gear oil, their part # 75-210. It's NAPA brand oil, as I have a lot of faith in NAPA brand parts/fluids. [Worked for NAPA when I was a kid.] I chucked the "Use only 75w140 Synthetic oil" tag that was on there from the factory.

[BillyGman]

Eaton recommends mineral-based 80w90 gear oil, NOT the synthetic fluid many [factory-unit-equipped] here use. I went to NAPA, and got a few quarts of gear oil, their part # 75-210. It's NAPA brand oil, as I have a lot of faith in NAPA brand parts/fluids. [Worked for NAPA when I was a kid.] I chucked the "Use only 75w140 Synthetic oil" tag that was on there from the factory.Hmmm, I don't have any such tag on my Marauder's rear. In fact, I've used nothing but the Motorcraft 80W90 gear oil (yes, the non-synthetic stuff) and I haven't had any problems with my S/Ced Marauder yet.

I presently have 39,000 miles on it, and the rear is still healthy. This might all be coincidental, but this kind of makes me wonder about that synthetic stuff, because I've never noticed any signs of fluid overflowing out of the vent tube on my Marauder. BTW, I've changed the rear fluid twice so far. Once when when the car has 1,500 miles on it, which is when I installed the 4.10 gears, and the second time when it has 4,500 miles on it, which was when I did the 4.56 gears.

My ford service manual for the 2003 Marauder/CV/Grand Marquis states that the rear end fluid should be changed after 70,000 miles in "heavy duty" applications. So I think it should easily go for 50,000 miles w/out changing it.

If you're running drag radials on the street like I do from April to November, then you'll find that rhey grip even worse than the factory radials do when the temps get below 50 degrees. So that might be the only reason your tires are breaking loose around turns, and nothing more. If you're leaving one sided strips on the road while straight line driving, then I agree that it's a sure sign of the "Trak LOK" being gone.

[Tallboy]

Hmmm, I don't have any such tag on my Marauder's rear. In fact, I've used nothing but the Motorcraft 80W90 gear oil (yes, the non-synthetic stuff) and I haven't had any problems with my S/Ced Marauder yet.

I presently have 39,000 miles on it, and the rear is still healthy. This might all be coincidental, but this kind of makes me wonder about that synthetic stuff, because I've never noticed any signs of fluid overflowing out of the vent tube on my Marauder. BTW, I've changed the rear fluid twice so far. Once when when the car has 1,500 miles on it, which is when I installed the 4.10 gears, and the second time when it has 4,500 miles on it, which was when I did the 4.56 gears.

My ford service manual for the 2003 Marauder/CV/Grand Marquis states that the rear end fluid should be changed after 70,000 miles in "heavy duty" applications. So I think it should easily go for 50,000 miles w/out changing it.

If you're running drag radials on the street like I do from April to November, then you'll find that rhey grip even worse than the factory radials do when the temps get below 50 degrees. So that might be the only reason your tires are breaking loose around turns, and nothing more. If you're leaving one sided stips on the road while straight line driving, then I agree that it's a sure sign of the "Trak LOK" being gone.

Maybe the tag came as part of the axle-tsb-upgrade? I'll have to ask Carfixer. It was there, though, top bolt on the left side.

Eaton strongly advises AGAINST the use of synthetics in this unit. Why, I don't know. I can tell you that the synthetic fluid that was in there was completely burnt-the smell was unreal, and it looked like chocolate syrup.

The old unit had done numerous "one-leggers" the past few months, and wouldn't "kick the rear end out" around corners like it used to. I'll be keeping a close eye on this one. I'm going to let this one ride for the same number of miles [9000], then open it up and a have a look-see.

By the way-no drag radials here. My car will be earning its living on the OEM KDWS tires.

[BillyGman]

One thing you want to shy away from, is burnouts around corners. Particularly when you're puting increased torque through the drivetrain such as with a S/Ced Marauder, because that eats-up the posi cluthes in the rear pretty quick from what I've been told. If you had a locker rear, then you wouldn't have to be concerned with that, but the posi type rears that have cluthes are vulnerable.

It's precisely for that reason that I didn't include dougnuts in that burnout video of mine. I don't do those with my Marauder. Now my Chevelle will have a locker rear :D but that's another story for another thread. Although I'd also be concerned with oil starvation of the oil pump during a really extreme dougnut burnout. I guess that would be another benefit of a dry sump oiling system, but they aren't cheap!!

[Bradley G]

I was told a few months ago, I was only spinning one wheel during a burnout.
I tried duplicating these symptoms, several times since, always two stripes remain.:confused:

[BillyGman]

I was told a few months ago, I was only spinning one wheel during a burnout.
I tried duplicating these symptoms, several times since, always two stripes remain.:confused:That happened to me once also. I think that most factory LSD's aren't real stiff posi's at all. Sometimes if the weight of the car isn't sitting evenly, or you have the steering wheel tuned slightly to one side, then only one tire will spin. My guess is that with posi's that are more heavy duty such as the Eaton, or the Auburn set-ups, that doesn't happen.

[Bradley G]

That is exactly how it was, The front wheels were turned slightly.

That happened to me once also. I think that most factory LSD's aren't real stiff posi's at all. Sometimes if the weight of the car isn't sitting evenly, or you have the steering wheel tuned slightly to one side, then only one tire will spin. My guess is that with posi's that are more heavy duty such as the Eaton, or the Auburn set-ups, that doesn't happen.

[Marauderjack]

I have to agree with MENINBLK here....I have never had a posi rear fail and have had some with 200K miles but I also never raced and never had enough power to really abuse one...except in a 426 "Hemi" Charger I had in 1968!!!

My Cobra replica has a 3.08:1 posi from an early '90's Mustang that according to the builder had 80K miles on it and was not rebuilt. I have 20K on it now and always "Two Stripes" but the car only weighs 2600#??

I can see where abuse (racing) with a 4500# car could cause early failure but I'll just have to report how mine does over time.....right now 2 Loooooong stripes if I stay on it!!

Marauderjack......No "Smileys"???

[FordNut]

I have to agree with MENINBLK here....I have never had a posi rear fail and have had some with 200K miles
You've been lucky then. I've been driving cars with Ford OEM limited slip rears for over 15 years and never had one last over 50k. My Marauder is on its third one now. Next time it'll be something different, just hoping this one takes me to 100k.

[David Morton]

I had a 1995 Ford Escort Wagon.
The engine's timing belt was notorious for breaking between 45,000 and 60,000 miles.
When it did, it required a short block and a new head to repair it.My mother has a '93 Mercury Tracer Trio, I think it's the same engine. Same car just different badges.

Anyways, I was driving it and the belt went *bing!*. (appx. 60K) No start, funny compression, etc. Classic timing belt failure on a four cylinder so I coasted into a parking lot. Next day I got it towed home, loosened the cover so I could see the naked pulley and then got a new belt. Changed it in two hours in the driveway, and cranked it right up. No miss either. $19.95 for the high quality belt. Total cost of the failure $19.95 + tax and gasoline expenses.

Sometimes I've done this job and there was a miss, indicating a bent valve and sometimes I've seen the valve straighten itself back up, that is the miss stopped.

Anyways, my experience has been that the older cars or the ones with the high tech engines with these timing belts sometimes, not always, bent valves so bad the head had to come off. I've never seen one stuff a valve into a piston or damage the block. However, I HAVE seen many "morally challenged" mechanics tell customers the head was going to have to be repaired. Occasionally I've seen an honest one say he'd do the belt but warn the customer he may have head work to do later. That's what I did. Also depending on the miles or condition of the cooling system, I'd advise a water pump replacement if it was one of those where the W/P pulley is the idler for the belt.

You did good to replace the thing early before it broke. I bring this up to say it's been my experience that this failure, more often than not, does not bend the valves too bad nor damage anything else. Most of the time the only thing you need to do is replace the belt.

BUT, most of the time, when you're paying a shop to do the job the mechanic either sees dollar signs and "bends you over the sawhorse" so to speak, or is so afraid he's gonna have to eat a free head job, that he tells you the worst case on his estimate. Of course you're in big trouble with the service manager if you get approval for a $1500 head job and wind up just doing the belt for $200! This is one industry where honesty is not considered to be the best policy, since it most definitely doesn't pay at least in the short term. This has added to the urban myth that when timing belts break it "always" bends valves and destroys pistons, which in my experience happens less than 10% of the time, on most engines.

[RF Overlord]

Maybe the tag came as part of the axle-tsb-upgrade?That's correct. I discovered one on my car right after having the TSB performed and asked the dealer about it...they said the kit comes with 2 quarts of 75W-140 synth along with the tag.

[metroplex]

the older OHC I4s were non-interference engines, where the chances of your valves hitting the pistons during a timing belt failure were slim.

The latest OHC engines with VVTi and other high-tech designs, are most definitely interference.

[David Morton]

the older OHC I4s were non-interference engines, where the chances of your valves hitting the pistons during a timing belt failure were slim.

The latest OHC engines with VVTi and other high-tech designs, are most definitely interference.Thanks man. I knew some of the hi-perf I4s did that ten years ago but they were in the minority.

I can't get over how stupid it is to use a belt in this app and then design the valve timing so it will do this crap when the belt fails.

Still, what I was trying to say is how the industry uses this event to justify overestimating and then how that tends to make guys lean towards...

...the dark side of the force. I guess it pays to know your 4-cylinder on this topic.

I can see him now.

"That is a path to the dark side. Timing belt failure leads to piston damage. Piston damage leads to block failure. Block failure leads to suffering." - Yoda :baaa:

[Marauderjack]

OEM LSD to Interference/Non-interference 4 cylinder motors??:confused:

What did I miss here??:rolleyes:

Marauderjack:burnout:

[Kenny's car]

I don't know if this will help or not... One way to trobleshoot the clutches in your differential is to do the following on cool dry pavement: (safer than running the driveline on jackstands)
1. Slowly roll forward about 20 ft.
2. Gently apply brakes to a full stop.
3. Gently shift into reverse, roll about 20 ft backward.
4. Gently apply brakes to stop backward roll. Hold Brakes.
5. Shift from reverse into drive, while holding brakes.
6. Allow drive to engage normally. Wait a few seconds to make sure all is engaged.
7. Power Brake (Brakes+Gas) up to close to your TQ Stall speed.
8. Release Brakes for burn-out.
If your differential clutches are any good at all, you will get two stripes, (depending on tire condition). I used this method with open 9" rear ends to get both wheels to engage with much sucess in my younger years.
BTW my car has about 20k miles with the LSD in ok condition. No TSB, and no fluid change. N/A with only the Superchip tuning.
The dealer did lots of burnouts with my car before I bought the car (rear tires were gone at 15K), after he sold it he got another and S/C'd it.

[David Morton]

OEM LSD to Interference/Non-interference 4 cylinder motors??:confused:

What did I miss here??:rolleyes:

Marauderjack:burnout:You missed pp1 where Meninblk mentioned his maintenance regimen for his P/T and went on about his timing belt experience with his service mgr. Was meant to emphasize how to make the service department serve you instead of the other way 'round.