Going slightly hybrid with methanol

[snowbird]

In the last few weeks, I’ve been busy working on my knock on boost problem in reason of poor local fuel availability (91 octane) and combined winter fuel recipe that is sold here from around November through March.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
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I did try tune mods and additive usage with limited success. I was ready for 50 calibers solution for that problem so I ordered a stage 2 Snow methanol kit. So far, the kit is installed to be functional and I need some finishing touch to be done in the next few weeks as time will permit.<o:p></o:p>
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Below, a few pics:<o:p></o:p>
1- To make room, the battery had to be moved in the trunk. A blessing in disguise as there is some handling/balance front and rear gains to be made. Assuming stock 4200 pounds on 55-45% and modded at 4300 pounds at 56-44% the battery in the trunk move put it at around 54-46% assuming a 75 pounds battery.<o:p></o:p>
2- In this pic, the battery hole left ( the white stuff is snow)<o:p></o:p>
3- In this pic, the stock battery rack, all cleaned, before I rape it !<o:p></o:p>
4- This is a partial view of the modular construction I did.<o:p></o:p>
5- The final result. Originally designed to be mounted piece by piece in the engine compartment, I finally dremelled it here and there and cut the reservoir to fit. What I have got is a single all mounted rack that just slip and bolt in is stock location with the pump, the methanol tank and the controller. The installer just had to wire it.<o:p></o:p>
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The results: I haven’t had much time to play with it since yesterday. On install, we best guessed it at 4 pounds onset and 6 pounds full methanol delivery. I did one road test with a deceptive no change. Yesterday night, I went for a more serious test with my tiny jeweller screwdriver (yes, those 2 adjusting knobs are really small) and backed up the onset and full setting “by the eye” at about 3 pounds onset and maybe 5 pounds full.<o:p></o:p>
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TTTAA DAAAMMM !! I almost found the perfect adjustment on second try !! No more knock, ping or anything. All gone. The engine seem to digest a 50-50 mix methanol and water with interest. The fat cat is happy again.<o:p></o:p>
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The Methanol injection does indeed work. I will have to finish the settings (more fine tuning is probably in order) as weather permit since yesterday was kind of cool with a minus 20 degree weather. The few on boost tests were hairy, as you might imagine with thin and frozen winter tires. I had no traction and the back of the car was just fishtailing everywhere on demand or on is own agenda.<o:p></o:p>
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I’m really happy with the results. J<o:p></o:p>

[Zack]

You need to have the car tuned for that, period.
You are playing Russian Roulette every time you mash the gas.

[Rider90]

How much did you spend moving the battery? I was told 4g is fine but with the distance to use 2g. Was there any sort of kit?

[FordNut]

Nice looking install. I agree you should have a tune for the water/meth. You also ought to get a battery box for the trunk mount battery.

[Zack]

Excellent install.
Correct me if im wrong, but doesnt the ENTIRE reservoir need to be higher then the pump?
I know Sutton Ford has installed this kit on their 9 second ride and they were very careful to make sure their reservoir was above the pump.
http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=81 89&d=1134732619

[SID210SA]

dont quote me on this, but, I thought I read somewhere on an alternative fuel website some time back that if you had a V I believe in the 8th position in your vin number that you vehicle was able to use alternative fuels or flex fuel capable...dont know if this is correct for the MM...I called my L/M dealership and that that I had a good question...they wanted me to bring in the car so they could hook it up the the computer to find out....I go in for my 20K service in about 700 miles so I guess I'll find out then...to be continued......

[txmarauder]

That looks like a shure flow pump, if so it is self priming and reservoir location is not important. Make sure you plumb it b4 the t/b or you will need a check valve to keep it from siphoning the pump and res. dry. No tune needed if it is to be used as an octane enhancer or cooling enhancer only. Make sure to point the meth nozzle towards the aircharge so it atomizes better. Is your kit progressive or just on/off. Nice setup.

I'm a meth user and have never done drugs:D

[dflynn5]

Where can I get information on using Methanol like this. Do you have any links to any documentation?

Thanks.

[Zack]

No tune needed if it is to be used as an octane enhancer or cooling enhancer only.

I respect your input but strongly disagree.
A shot of meth is like a shot of nitrous and one of 2 things can happen.
You hit the meth and the computer calls for more fuel. Your pumps are already maxed out and you go lean. Bye bye engine.
Or,
You hit the meth, you have plenty of fuel pump and it goes pig rich, washes down the cylinder walls with gas and over time the rings fail and the bores wear out.
There is no disputing this logic, period.
Get the car tuned.

[snowbird]

You need to have the car tuned for that, period.
You are playing Russian Roulette every time you mash the gas.
Zack,

I'm using 9 degree base timing (very conservative). I will doublecheck on this. But my aim was knock control not HP gain. I've seen numerous posts with 30-60 HP gain WHEN the timing is raised but i didn't touch the tune.

[snowbird]

How much did you spend moving the battery? I was told 4g is fine but with the distance to use 2g. Was there any sort of kit?
Rider90,

It cost me about 500 $ CDN for parts and labour, about 400$ USD. I did it by the book, using a socalled caliber 1 wire (the biggest available about5/8 inches thick) and a 250 amp fuse and a generic battery in the trunk holder. I will finish it soon with a box.

[snowbird]

Excellent install.
Correct me if im wrong, but doesnt the ENTIRE reservoir need to be higher then the pump?
I know Sutton Ford has installed this kit on their 9 second ride and they were very careful to make sure their reservoir was above the pump.
http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=81 89&d=1134732619
Zack,

On the Snow instruction sheet, they stipulate the injector higher than the pump, the reservoir higher OR EQUAL to the pump.

[snowbird]

dont quote me on this, but, I thought I read somewhere on an alternative fuel website some time back that if you had a V I believe in the 8th position in your vin number that you vehicle was able to use alternative fuels or flex fuel capable...dont know if this is correct for the MM...I called my L/M dealership and that that I had a good question...they wanted me to bring in the car so they could hook it up the the computer to find out....I go in for my 20K service in about 700 miles so I guess I'll find out then...to be continued......
SID210sa,

This particular kit is aimed at the centrifugal supercharger user as the controller is triggered by boost plugged on vacuum line with 2 adjusting knobs. Offboost= no methanol. Trilogy user would probably prefer the kit activated via MAF since they got more torque down low and is kind of trickier to adjust.

[snowbird]

That looks like a shure flow pump, if so it is self priming and reservoir location is not important. Make sure you plumb it b4 the t/b or you will need a check valve to keep it from siphoning the pump and res. dry. No tune needed if it is to be used as an octane enhancer or cooling enhancer only. Make sure to point the meth nozzle towards the aircharge so it atomizes better. Is your kit progressive or just on/off. Nice setup.

I'm a meth user and have never done drugs:D

TXmarauder,

I agree 100%. The new model of pumps used by Snow is supposed to have a built in the pump check valve to prevent the return/siphoning effect. Before, it was an external option.

[snowbird]

Where can I get information on using Methanol like this. Do you have any links to any documentation?

Thanks.
dflynn5,

Check with google on snow methanol product. The company is located in Colorado. There is a good site to learn more.

[snowbird]

I respect your input but strongly disagree.
A shot of meth is like a shot of nitrous and one of 2 things can happen.
You hit the meth and the computer calls for more fuel. Your pumps are already maxed out and you go lean. Bye bye engine.
Or,
You hit the meth, you have plenty of fuel pump and it goes pig rich, washes down the cylinder walls with gas and over time the rings fail and the bores wear out.
There is no disputing this logic, period.
Get the car tuned.

Zack,

You scare the sh__t out of me !! I will doublecheck.

[txmarauder]

Come on Zack, i think we have had this discussion b4. So i will call you out on this one. Show me a link to a DIY alky kit which is what this is that states you need a tune ecm wise. A 50/50 mix which is what he is doing is no where close to nitrous. Nitrous is a oxygen enhancer which gives you a said amount of hp IE 50 shot 100 shot and so on. A alky kit or meth or water or any mix of just cools the aircharge and depending on mix may raise your octane a little. IF he is just using it to cool his charge temp then he wont need a tune, NOW if he cranks up the boost then he will. BUT that is not the case here. If i remember right are you the guy that works on 750-1500 hp engines at a shop. If that is the case then you are talking about apples and oranges here IF you are comparing those engines on alky injection to this vehicle. So with that said say whatever you want i wont rebut anymore more because we both seem to have a differnet experience with this issue. Besides i need to go xmas shopping in my 200k mile car that has had alky on it for almost 50k with the same compression # it had a 150k with my a/f ratio indicator just above the middle.

[FordNut]

Based on the tune that the car is running, it is possible that it could need a re-tune. Most of the time, adding water/methanol will actually reduce the power a car makes until timing is advanced to take advantage of it. AFR is generally not affected. The problem area is the tune may be setup to increase advance based on IAT. The parameter can be turned off or left on, it's the tuner's philosophy which determines how it is set. The water/meth does reduce IAT. So the tune could possibly advance timing based on this. However, the water inhibits combustion which will counteract the detonation which could occur due to advanced timing.

Overall, the best way to get one setup properly is with a good dyno tune.

[DEFYANT]

Anytime you significantly alter the air intake to the engine, I think a new tune should be done. It is cheep insurance.

[MENINBLK]

If you have a knock burning 91 octane, regardless if it's winter
or summer blend, you've got a problem elsewhere that needs to be solved.

I had a problem with a knock burning 93 octane,
and it turned out to be my thermostat.
A new thermostat and fresh antifreeze and the problem was gone.

[snowbird]

If you have a knock burning 91 octane, regardless if it's winter
or summer blend, you've got a problem elsewhere that needs to be solved.

I had a problem with a knock burning 93 octane,
and it turned out to be my thermostat.
A new thermostat and fresh antifreeze and the problem was gone.
Meninblk,

I had this car for two winters. The first, N/A, i had that knock problem from november to march. No matter what i did last year, the problem wasn't solved completely. It went away by itself in april.

This year, from april through the end of october, the problem was gone and i went supercharged in that time frame (and i had to put a new 180F thermostat in the process). I did fiddle a bit to stabilize the tune with success. Last month, the problem came back in november. Same story. I am convinced it's the winter blend they use up here. Plain crap fuel don't mix nicely with powerfull engines with air pump and 10,0 - 1 compression ratio.

[Vortech347]

Meth is wonderful. 3 of my stang friends run it and i'm about to throw a kit on my dads Vortech'd 05 Roush.

The only additional tuning would be done to take advantage of it such as ADDING some timing. Where it sits now he's definatly good to go.

Snowbird you got a wideband on that thing?

[HwyCruiser]

Slick looking setup. Nothing like a burning need to become a trail-blazer. Good luck with it and keep us informed on how it's working long term.

[snowbird]

Meth is wonderful. 3 of my stang friends run it and i'm about to throw a kit on my dads Vortech'd 05 Roush.

The only additional tuning would be done to take advantage of it such as ADDING some timing. Where it sits now he's definatly good to go.

Snowbird you got a wideband on that thing?
Nitrous SSC,

Thanks for the comments.

I don't have a wideband right now but i'm in the planning stage to have an enhancement in that field. I heard Autometer is supposed to have a new one on the market in the next 2-3 months. Feel free to suggest anything in that field if you wish.

By the way, i noticed you use the same rear tires size that i do for summer trim. HAve you gone with the Pirellis ? and if so, how do you rate them ?

[snowbird]

Slick looking setup. Nothing like a burning need to become a trail-blazer. Good luck with it and keep us informed on how it's working long term.
Thanks JD

I'll keep you informed, no problem.

But, i cannot test and tune everyday. The pic below was taken very early this morning, just before sunrise after a 12-14 inches snowfall. I guess i'll have to delay a bit the experimenting process .... Pretty ironic on the effort i'm doing on cooling the charge. I should just shovel up that crap under the hood.

The weather man said that was a humid front coming from Overland park . Gregg did it again !! :D

[Vortech347]

Nitrous SSC,

Thanks for the comments.

I don't have a wideband right now but i'm in the planning stage to have an enhancement in that field. I heard Autometer is supposed to have a new one on the market in the next 2-3 months. Feel free to suggest anything in that field if you wish.

By the way, i noticed you use the same rear tires size that i do for summer trim. HAve you gone with the Pirellis ? and if so, how do you rate them ?
Wideband wise I'd totally recommend the new style AEM gauge. It reads from 10:1-18:1. They're so easy to read, even when trying to keep the car straight at 80mph. You can't beat the digital numbers that you can read out of the corner of your eye. Jegs is also having a sale on them right now. 279 each!!!! All my stang buds run them and I'm gona get one in the next week or so. All of the dyno testing/runs we do they are dead on. Plus if you dyno you car enough it will pay off so you don't have to pay extra for A/F

The tires on my car were put on a week before I bought it. They are Toyo Proxey S/T's. I did some research and it turns out they're for SUV's. That would explain why the are so damn loud on the freeway.

Good luck with the Meth, wait till you get'er tuned with a more agressive timing curve. You'll pick up another 15-30rwhp.

[Lidio]

I’ve been working with Methanol injection at my place pretty steady now for about the last six months or so. I’ve become very fond of it and am really starting to push it on mostly the non intercooled Vortech equipped and other centrifugal cars that we’ve done over the last 14 years or so, and all the new installs we get into as well. I’m just telling you what I think of it and what I believe in with it.
First off I don’t believe in using it mixed with water. I use it (methanol) straight. Although I know a lot of people do mix it with there own conclusions and reasons to do so. I see no reason to cut it in half other then to save money. Its chemical reaction and cooling effect from what I can tell are reduced when mixed with water. The way I look at Methanol injection right now is you get two for one…. A very effective intercooler and a big increase in octane.

All the meth kits I’ve installed where put on for the sole intension of trying to gain no less then 60-100 more RWHP by raising the boost at the same time the Meth kit goes on and tune accordingly. Because you can with Meth.

Methanol is no way like a shot of NOS and does not increase HP that much when a small or large amount is sprayed into a boosted motor. Its basically just gona richen the A/F ratio a bit and cool things too. Because of my own demands and some of my customers as well, we’re taking full advantage of it. If a car comes to me with about lets say the usual 8 to 10psi of boost non intercooled with a centrifugal which is super common at my shop… we immediately bump it to 13 to 15psi cause you can with ease with a properly tuned straight Methanol injection set up. As long as the fuel system kept up with the level of power with the old boost set up, when the meth goes on -- all we make sure of is that the Mass-Air-Meter is not gona max out or peg. Because the Methanol controllers work based on “mass air voltage output”…. so its important that the meter doesn’t peg as the revs and HP climb, other wise the Meth wont be added or increased as the engine demands it.

The way I set up the entire package, a full retune is absolutely required. We inject a pretty good amount of Meth, enough to make the A/F go from lets say 11.5 to 1 down to 9.5 to 1, then I lean it back out to 11.5 or leaner by taking the fuel out in the stock computer fuel tables…. This and adding more timing because of the increase in octane and big decrease in inlet temp is what starts to make the power really come up.

The PIC I posted is the Meth nozzles under the manifold on my 04 Mcah-1 which has a Kenne Bell 2.2L blower that makes 20 psi. This will be the first screw/roots blown one that I know of that will have the Meth injected after the blower/intercooler. All the other Screw/roots ones we’ve done injected the Meth before the blower which isn’t as effective as after the blower. The lower assembly in the PIC is the same as the Trilogy lower. Mine has two nozzles not the usual single nozzle because this set up already make 600 RWHP and I wanted to make sure I pumped enough Meth into it to make a difference. I’m not upping the boost on my Mach-1 when the Meth kit is done. Only looking to add some spark and make sure the inlet temps don’t go over 120-degrees after the car goes past the 1/8 mile in the ¼ mile. The intercooler system on my Mach-1 with the KB just isn’t good enough for 20psi after the car gets about ½ way down the tack. They start out at 100 ish and work there way up to 180 at the very end of the track. I’d like to see them stay around 100 or lower with the Meth and maybe pick up another 50 RWHP

Thanks

[Vortech347]

Exactly. Its not the meth itself that gives you more power its the ability to tune more timing in and increase boost levels without detonation. Thats a slick lookin setup.

[Tom Doan]

Look waaaay back, I did the first one listed on here and took alot of crap from you all, but my car sure ran sweet. I had the stage one and liked so much I went to the stage two set up and now I'll do the stage three for Roots motors. Works great, low cost, cheap insurance for an all aluminum engine. I don't care where you get your gas, I try to by the best and have sill had bad tank fulls to live through, wish I had it on all my muscle cars.Tom

[snowbird]

Lidio,

Thanks for that elaborate comment and views. I personnally used the 50/50 mix because it was suggested by Snow but your usage of a 100% blend is making me thinking...

I'll see in the coming months if my "cojones" grow big enough to have my car retune the way you are doing it !! :)