cold stall

[duhtroll]

My 03 B stalls when it's really cold. I mean, more than other cars I've had. Anyone else had this problem?

This happens only when it's for several hours or so without running it - like at the hotel last night and the temps went down to about 5F. It always starts the first time - that's not the problem. It sometimes starts slightly slower due to the cold, but it always goes and if I let it idle for 10 minutes the stalling is never a problem. If I try to drive it before it's had its 10 minutes, however, it will die even under throttle while heading down the street. No other car I've driven has done that.

This morning it "died" several times and "restarted itself" after a second or three while driving on the way to my morning appt. It even threw a code and the check engine light wouldn't shut off afterwards. I had to disconnect the power and reset everything.

Once I was told by the dealer mech that it was ice in the chip fitting when I had him look at it once. Could be, and after it had warmed today and I reset it, it was fine.

I have programming, stat, and cooler plugs. I also use ethanol gas, so water in the fuel should not be a problem.

Just tossing this out there in case anyone can either explain or relate to it.

Thanks,
-A

[DEFYANT]

Sounds like another Idle Air Control Valve...


EDIT:
see this thread; http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?t=23449&highlight=air+idle

[RF Overlord]

Once I was told by the dealer mech that it was ice in the chip fittingWell, that sounds like a unique way of saying "I don't have a clue".

Did he mean the service port connector on the PCM where aftermarket chips (like from Dennis, Wes, & Lidio) plug in? If so, I find it REALLY hard to believe...

There are so many things that COULD be the cause...it would help if you could get the codes read next time the CEL comes on...
Sounds like another Idle Air Control Valve...That's what I thought at first, but he says it dies even under throttle...

[TooManyFords]

Just tossing this out there in case anyone can either explain or relate to it.

I think I'd just unbolt the intake and put a forged motor underneath it.
Oh, sorry, that's what -I- did...

But seriously, try the SeaFoam trick. I use it in all of my stuff. If it pops another code, bring it over and I'll read it for you.

John

[duhtroll]

Yeah, J, like you are going to drive that in the winter!

I would have thought of asking you, but I was in Moline at the time.

Yes, the tech meant where the chip plugs in. That was after he read the code.

He did it for free, so I can't really complain about it.

Like I said, it's only a problem if I don't give it 10 min. to get going.

I wonder how cheap I can get a remote starter? My office is literally 30 feet from my parking space, but the door is farther. One button 10 minutes before I leave work would be nice . . ..

-A

[MENINBLK]

First,
Make sure you are putting at least 91 octane in your tank.

Second,
Take notice how much fuel you have in the tank when it happens
and when it doesn't.
Low fuel and cold start/stall can be a sign of a weak fuel pump.
If it happens, regardless of the amount of fuel in the tank,
then it could be your fuel filter restricting the flow of fuel.

Third,
Try putting a bottle of Chevron Techron or Penzoil Gumout Regane in your tank.
It will clean up your injectors and get rid of any water condensation
in your fuel tank and fuel lines.
Mind you, this is going to take at least a tank or two to remedy the situation,
but it will be fun burning off all that fuel !!

Fourth,
Clean up the Throttle Body and IAC valves with Throttle Body cleaner.
Don't use Carb Cleaner, its not the same formula.
Throttle Body cleaner will dissolve the gunk and carbon and leave your Throttle Body
clean and shiny so you are getting the proper air to your engine.

Fifth,
Unplug your battery for at least 20 minutes to totally reset your Marauder's PCM.
If the stalling continues, then you've got no choice but to take it to your dealer
and tell him everything you've tried so far...

That's all I could think of...

[MENINBLK]

Yeah, J, like you are going to drive that in the winter!

I would have thought of asking you, but I was in Moline at the time.

Yes, the tech meant where the chip plugs in. That was after he read the code.

He did it for free, so I can't really complain about it.

Like I said, it's only a problem if I don't give it 10 min. to get going.

I wonder how cheap I can get a remote starter? My office is literally 30 feet from my parking space, but the door is farther. One button 10 minutes before I leave work would be nice . . ..

-A

This is unnecessary and it wastes fuel.
That's why HEATED SEATS were available as an option.
If you are that cold, just turn on the heater...

I get in my Marauder every morning.
Start it up and give it about a minute to get the oils flowing.
I drive it slowly until it is fully warmed up and then drive normally.

[Rider90]

I get in my Marauder every morning.
Start it up and give it about a minute to get the oils flowing.
I drive it slowly until it is fully warmed up and then drive normally.
I'm sure there are some others that prefer to give their Marauders more than one minute to warm up before they get in it and hit 2000 RPM in 0 degree conditions.

I would aim at the Mercury OEM Remote start - IIRC, it is near $200.

[fastblackmerc]

I'm sure there are some others that prefer to give their Marauders more than one minute to warm up before they get in it and hit 2000 RPM in 0 degree conditions.

I would aim at the Mercury OEM Remote start - IIRC, it is near $200.
There are aftermarket remote starters also.

[MENINBLK]

I'm sure there are some others that prefer to give their Marauders more than one minute to warm up before they get in it and hit 2000 RPM in 0 degree conditions.

There is nothing wrong with driving ANY vehicle, at any temperature,
once your oil is up to pressure.
As long as you don't jump in it and romp on it like you stole it, you are fine.

Everyone is entitled to their preferences and opinions.
Whether you let your vehicle's engine sit and idle until it gets to operating temp,
Let it idle for 5 - 10 min before you go, or get in it and go makes no difference.

We aren't dragging to the corner, and it isn't necessary to burn all that fuel.
Your vehicle will warm faster IF YOU DRIVE IT,
and you'll get to your destination with more fuel left in your tank.

Did you ever think of how much gas you are burning to heat that tiny little space in your car,
compared to how much fuel you burn to keep your house or apartment warm ?

[duhtroll]

Let's be clear. I don't idle the car to warm it up. Every morning I start in the garage, wait 10 seconds, and back out.

It's only when the car is out for an entire day in single digit temps (or less) and I know it will die if I try to drive it that I will idle it.

I always use 93. Never had more than a few gallons of non-93, and that was 91.

Hopefully it's not a fuel pump issue. Just reluctant to go to the dealer because they always give me that scratching head "well, give it to us for a day and we'll mess with it" type of treatment. :rolleyes:

-A

[metroplex]

I started to warm up the car for about 15 minutes before I leave. The car warms up faster this way. I usually hit 190F ECT 1/4 mile from the house this way. Otherwise it would take about 5 miles before it warms up. Stock t-stat, underdrive pulleys, and a Cobra water pump (less efficient at low temps).

[MENINBLK]

I started to warm up the car for about 15 minutes before I leave. The car warms up faster this way. I usually hit 190F ECT 1/4 mile from the house this way. Otherwise it would take about 5 miles before it warms up. Stock t-stat, underdrive pulleys, and a Cobra water pump (less efficient at low temps).

So how does idling for 15 minutes warm up you car faster then driving it for 5 miles ?

It takes me 15 minutes to drive my son to school.
About 5 minutes into my trip the engine is at operating temp
and we have heat in our car with the engine barely going over 2500 rpm.

[RF Overlord]

Your vehicle will warm faster IF YOU DRIVE IT...
I get in my Marauder every morning.
Start it up and give it about a minute to get the oils flowing.
I drive it slowly until it is fully warmed up and then drive normally.This may be the first thing that Pete and I agree on 100%... ;)

[metroplex]

So how does idling for 15 minutes warm up you car faster then driving it for 5 miles ?

It takes me 15 minutes to drive my son to school.
About 5 minutes into my trip the engine is at operating temp
and we have heat in our car with the engine barely going over 2500 rpm.

It's easy: cold ambient temperatures.
If you're driving for 5 miles (the first 5 miles are fairly non-stop, 60 mph cruising) in 10F, the cold air is preventing the coolant from warming up quickly due to the fairly effective radiator. At that point, heat STARTS to flow out of the vents and you're now just beginning to heat the interior.

If I warm up the Vic for 15 min, and then do the same 5 miles, I find that at about 1/4-1/2 mile from my house, the temp needle goes to the 180F-200F region. At the 5 mile point, there is intense heat coming out of the vents.

I'm apparently allergic to the cold (must have been a reaction from an infection I got last year, either in the desert or from a tetanus shot) so I prefer luke-warm interior air. I don't have heated seats :(

I don't see any massive consumption of fuel. I lost about 2 mpg in the city by warming up the car this way. 2 mpg doesn't mean much per year since the winter only lasts about 4-5 months. If the ambient temps are above 30F, I just start the car and leave after about 45-50 seconds when it goes into closed loop.

[MENINBLK]

It's easy: cold ambient temperatures.
If you're driving for 5 miles (the first 5 miles are fairly non-stop, 60 mph cruising) in 10F, the cold air is preventing the coolant from warming up quickly due to the fairly effective radiator. At that point, heat STARTS to flow out of the vents and you're now just beginning to heat the interior.

I'm sorry you have a sensitivity to the cold.
My son shares that sensitivity with you.
Cold air below 50F can trigger his asthma.


You don't fully understand your cooling system....

There is a Thermostat that regulates the temperature of the coolant that circulates AROUND YOUR ENGINE.
This has NOTHING to do with the coolant in your radiator.
The Thermostat actually separates the coolant path around the engine, from the coolant path through the radiator,
and regulates the flow of coolant from the engine to the radiator, based on the temp of the coolant leaving the engine

As the coolant circulating around your engine begins to warm, it also circulates through your heater core.
When your heater core gets warm, your HVAC automatically begins
to blow air through it, providing the cabin warm air.
All of this happens before the thermostat even opens to allow the coolant, which is circulating around the engine
to circulate through the radiator, to cool it and return it back to the engine circulation route.

So whether you drive it or let it idle, making the engine work
is going to heat your coolant faster, and provide heat faster.
Letting the engine idle takes longer to heat your coolant.

[TripleTransAm]

It's easy: cold ambient temperatures.
If you're driving for 5 miles (the first 5 miles are fairly non-stop, 60 mph cruising) in 10F, the cold air is preventing the coolant from warming up quickly due to the fairly effective radiator. At that point, heat STARTS to flow out of the vents and you're now just beginning to heat the interior.


You have a faulty thermostat. No coolant is supposed to flow through the radiator until the t-stat temperature is reached.

I've compared back to back warm-up schedules, in 0 F weather:
1) let the car idle for 10 minutes and get in and drive.
2) let the car warm up for 1-2 minutes and drive.

In both cases, I get heat flowing from my climate control at EXACTLY the same place (actually, give or take 20 feet). It's exactly 5 minutes to the highway from my house, and I always get heat exactly just before the last stop sign before the onramp.

Of course, if I idled for 30 minutes, I'd most likely have heat right away when I stepped into the car, but with this motor's tendency to guzzle at idle (both my MMs display this), I'm not going to throw my money out the window (including wasting my time restarting the car after the 15 minute run timeout on the remote starter).


Edit: Sorry Pete, I didn't see you replied by the time I replied myself. Didn't mean to repeat what you wrote (in much better detail than my post, BTW).

[metroplex]

I have a brand new RT-1178 192F (factory rated temp) t-stat. It should START to open at around 192F-197F based on my past experiences with Motorcraft t-stats.

I am mistaken on the cold air through the radiator. How about cold air contacting the engine block and cylinder heads? If the coolant is circulating through the motor ONLY, then cold air passing around the engine at a high and constant speed (remember: non-stop 60 mph cruising at 0F-10F ambient) will help cool it just a tad.

I know for a fact though, that if I warm up the car for about 10-15 minutes, the heat is on by the time I leave the house. The ECT reaches max temp within 1/4 mile.

I used to drive it cold right out of the garage, but it takes about 5 miles for the temp needle to get up to the normal range (180F-190F+ region of the gauge).

For diagnostics, I found that the engine has a hard time keeping the ECT above 190F. For instance, once I got the engine warmed up, I shut it off to change the PCM tune or do something. After 5-10 minutes the ECT dropped down to about 130F. It drops quickly with the cooler ambient temperatures.

I set my low speed fan to turn on at about 204F and needless to say, I never hear the fan kick in during the winter while driving.

I hate the cold, I never used to be allergic to it though. It must be the MI/Canada air or something

[Marauderjack]

I have had deveral 4.6 SOHC CV's and this MM engine heats up extremely fast!!:beer:

This AM my coolant temp was 37* and by the time I went 2 miles the heat was blowing and the coolant temp was 130+......Amazing how aluminum transmits heat!!:bows:

Coolant was up to 184* within 4 miles.....Our 1998 CV takes 10-15 miles to get hot.;)

Marauderjack:burnout:

BTW.....I think crummy winter gas is your culprit...a bit of water maybe?? :confused:

[metroplex]

duhtroll: Have you checked your O2 sensors? See if the front O2 sensors are switching from 0.2V-0.8V within 30-50 seconds after startup (if you have Car Code or Raptor or X-Cal 2 or another datalogger).

If your front O2 sensors are taking too long to warm up, it will cause your car to stall out when shifted into drive before the O2s are switching. This happened to my Vic when I used Bosch o2 sensors and it got colder outside.
A temporary fix was to increase the delay to closed loop from 45-70 seconds to 120 seconds (when I noticed the Bosch sensors start to switch). So rather than take the trim data from the O2s before they warmed up, this allowed the car to run open loop (use MAF transfer function ONLY for AFR) until the Bosch O2 sensors heated up. This is a ghetto way of fixing the problem, but I also figured out the problem. I swapped them for Motorcraft sensors later on and went back to the original closed loop delay.

[metroplex]

I have had deveral 4.6 SOHC CV's and this MM engine heats up extremely fast!!:beer:

This AM my coolant temp was 37* and by the time I went 2 miles the heat was blowing and the coolant temp was 130+......Amazing how aluminum transmits heat!!:bows:

Coolant was up to 184* within 4 miles.....Our 1998 CV takes 10-15 miles to get hot.;)

Marauderjack:burnout:

BTW.....I think crummy winter gas is your culprit...a bit of water maybe?? :confused:

37F? It must feel like summer there. Right now we're in the 30s and its expected to hit 40s this weekend. It's a heat WAVE! :eek: :P

[Dennis Reinhart]

My 03 B stalls when it's really cold. I mean, more than other cars I've had. Anyone else had this problem?

This happens only when it's for several hours or so without running it - like at the hotel last night and the temps went down to about 5F. It always starts the first time - that's not the problem. It sometimes starts slightly slower due to the cold, but it always goes and if I let it idle for 10 minutes the stalling is never a problem. If I try to drive it before it's had its 10 minutes, however, it will die even under throttle while heading down the street. No other car I've driven has done that.

This morning it "died" several times and "restarted itself" after a second or three while driving on the way to my morning appt. It even threw a code and the check engine light wouldn't shut off afterwards. I had to disconnect the power and reset everything.

Once I was told by the dealer mech that it was ice in the chip fitting when I had him look at it once. Could be, and after it had warmed today and I reset it, it was fine.

I have programming, stat, and cooler plugs. I also use ethanol gas, so water in the fuel should not be a problem.

Just tossing this out there in case anyone can either explain or relate to it.

Thanks,
-A

well if it is my tune it is a easy fix

[duhtroll]

No datalogger here. Might run over to TMF's place and use his.

All the other stuff you spoke of below, I will quote Eric Cartman:

"whoseachickawha?"

I could probably figure that all out, but by jargon-o-meter is on overload untilI get some sleep.

Dennis - I don't think it's the tune but if there's ever an issue I know where to go. My dad's even moving to Sebring this coming summer so I will probably end up driving by sometime.

-A


duhtroll: Have you checked your O2 sensors? See if the front O2 sensors are switching from 0.2V-0.8V within 30-50 seconds after startup (if you have Car Code or Raptor or X-Cal 2 or another datalogger).

If your front O2 sensors are taking too long to warm up, it will cause your car to stall out when shifted into drive before the O2s are switching. This happened to my Vic when I used Bosch o2 sensors and it got colder outside.
A temporary fix was to increase the delay to closed loop from 45-70 seconds to 120 seconds (when I noticed the Bosch sensors start to switch). So rather than take the trim data from the O2s before they warmed up, this allowed the car to run open loop (use MAF transfer function ONLY for AFR) until the Bosch O2 sensors heated up. This is a ghetto way of fixing the problem, but I also figured out the problem. I swapped them for Motorcraft sensors later on and went back to the original closed loop delay.

[TripleTransAm]

I could probably figure that all out, but by jargon-o-meter is on overload untilI get some sleep.


Short version:
O2 sensors only start oscillating once they get hot. PCMs don't start looking at O2 sensors (and hence go into closed loop) until the O2 sensors start oscillating. If O2 sensors start oscillating too soon, the PCM might start trying to worry about proper mixtures when things are still too cold.

caveat:
I always thought PCMs looked at O2 sensor oscillations AND a minimum engine temperature before going into closed loop. So maybe the engine coolant temperature sensor is f***ed...

[GodOSpeed]

I'd try a jug of HEET or isopropyl first. It may not be the quality of your fuel giving you problems. Coming home with cold fuel into a heated garage could be giving you some condensation in your tank.

If that doesnt work pull your chip and see what happens.
When it gets below 0 mine will not start and throw codes door locks will go up and down a few times.
I pull my chip and all is fine. Extra hp and firm shifts are your enemy in the slippery stuff anyhoo.

These aluminum blocks are great for redusing weight but they are a pain in the winter. Shut it off to run in the store come out and that sucker is cold again. Id like to know who the genius is that put the anti-lockout program in a car that has keyless entry.:confused:

[MENINBLK]

Short version:
O2 sensors only start oscillating once they get hot. PCMs don't start looking at O2 sensors (and hence go into closed loop) until the O2 sensors start oscillating. If O2 sensors start oscillating too soon, the PCM might start trying to worry about proper mixtures when things are still too cold.

caveat:
I always thought PCMs looked at O2 sensor oscillations AND a minimum engine temperature before going into closed loop. So maybe the engine coolant temperature sensor is f***ed...

Aren't our O2 sensors HEATED ?
Can that be the problem if you turn off the engine for 15 minutes
and then get back in and the exh manifolds are warmer than the engine is ?

Then delaying Closed Loop would be a good solution.

[TripleTransAm]

Aren't our O2 sensors HEATED ?
Can that be the problem if you turn off the engine for 15 minutes
and then get back in and the exh manifolds are warmer than the engine is ?

Then delaying Closed Loop would be a good solution.


Good point on the heated O2s... I'm almost 100% sure you're correct.

And I'm recalling some sort of delay before allowing closed loop operation on a restart, even if the O2s are oscillating and the engine is above closed loop temperature. That takes care of the case you mentioned above (and in case the engine got too cold, I'd think the coolant temperature would prevent closed loop... would like to know for sure, though).

My GTA's ECM (pre-OBDII) outputs a flag indicating whether it's in closed loop or not. I don't know if the Marauder's PCM can provide that info or not (I'd have to check it out with my Autotap)... in any case, I doubt it would be enough to just look at oscillating O2s to determine closed loop operation, as that would leave things open to bad driveability (well, worse than what's been reported with the early MM calibrations, anyway).

Side note: in stop/go traffic, my GTA's O2 sensor (only one) will actually cool off to the point of having the motor occasionally go into open loop operation, since the O2 sensor goes to sleep. It's obviously the earlier non-heated generation of O2 sensor, and the same behaviour continues even after I changed it at 70000 miles.

[TooManyFords]

Id like to know who the genius is that put the anti-lockout program in a car that has keyless entry.:confused:

Sidebar: You can lock your running MM. Close the door and then press the right two buttons on the keyless entry at the same time. Doors will lock.

[metroplex]

Here's the dilly-yo on the O2 sensors:

I have observed the O2 sensors on the 2000 Vic and the 2003 E-250, they're the same O2 sensors.

They will start switching or oscillating within 50-60 seconds of a cold start.
It just so happens that the PCM switches to CLOSED LOOP right when it starts switching.

So that means within 1 min of a cold start, the PCM will start using the O2 sensors, in closed loop, to adjust short term fuel trims.

If you're using Bosch universal O2 sensors, they will take 2-5 min to warm up. After 1 min of a cold start, the PCM looks to the Bosch sensors for data and it will tell the PCM, "oh he's 25% rich, pull fuel" and bam, stalls out in drive. The fix for this was to delay the transition to closed loop by 1 minute for a total delay of 2 minutes.

The real way to fix it was to just get OEM replacement O2 sensors.

Before you start pulling theories on heated O2 sensors out, go and datalog your Marauders to see when it goes to closed loop and when your O2 sensor voltages start to switch.

ideally, the O2 sensor voltage should immediately spike to nearly 1.00VDC for the first 0-50 seconds of a cold start, and then switch between 0.2V DC and 0.8VDC.

The REAR O2 sensors take about 2 min to warm up to nearly 1V DC. Then they start to switch SLOWLY. This is NORMAL. It indicates proper catalytic converter efficiency.

[metroplex]

Short version:
O2 sensors only start oscillating once they get hot. PCMs don't start looking at O2 sensors (and hence go into closed loop) until the O2 sensors start oscillating. If O2 sensors start oscillating too soon, the PCM might start trying to worry about proper mixtures when things are still too cold.

caveat:
I always thought PCMs looked at O2 sensor oscillations AND a minimum engine temperature before going into closed loop. So maybe the engine coolant temperature sensor is f***ed...

Your PCM goes into closed loop within 1 MINUTE of a cold start, REGARDLESS of your thermostat or ECT. Well, it DOES take initial ECT/CHT startup readings to figure out the delay, but in general, expect closed loop mode within 30-70 seconds of a cold start. That is also when the primary O2 sensors start to switch.

[GodOSpeed]

Thanks for the 411 John!:santa:

[Jake Steel]

dude you live in Moline thats in illinois isn't it i'm in Carbon Cliff,il leave me a pm and well have a meet an greet i have an o4 MM silver birch right now i have my winter wheel steelies on when you pm me i'll give you my email addy hope to hear from you soon ......happy motoring........peace John

[Marauderjack]

dude you live in Moline thats in illinois isn't it i'm in Carbon Cliff,il leave me a pm and well have a meet an greet i have an o4 MM silver birch right now i have my winter wheel steelies on when you pm me i'll give you my email addy hope to hear from you soon ......happy motoring........peace John

49 months later........:cool:

[duhtroll]

Wow - holy old thread alert, Batman! Update time.

Well, since 2005 I have:

1) Learned about O2 sensors, so re-reading this thread makes much more sense! Much of said learning came from asking the same dumb questions over and over again, usually to TMF. Then I would generally buy whatever he took off his car last week.

2) Had the rest of my family move away from Moline and we don't get there much anymore, though I did just meet some family members in Rock Island for a get-together 2 weeks ago. Brought home some half-baked Harris pizzas to throw in the freezer for the super bowl on Sunday. (if you are ever in the QC you must go to Harris pizza - the best).

3) Purchased a 2000 CVPI as a winter beater so the MM is no longer driven in the snow, ice, rain, or extreme cold.

4) Planned to replace said winter beater with a 4x4 this summer/fall.

The MM is still here, though I have to admit that when the local Dodge dealer had 3 Challenger SRT8s on the lot and Chrysler being in the tank, I considered trading for just a second...

Of course, who knows if I will have a job that long, so everything is kinda "wait and see."