Manual Tranny

[Master]

Are there any threads already drifting about that pertain to a manual tranny swap? I know that it has been done, and is do-able. One such is featured in the Ford Motorsport Catalogue, but it uses a crate engine and computer, so that doesn't really count. One of the race schools also uses this set-up for their training crown vics.
Just hoping someone has a detailed account of the procedure.
Thanks,
David
PS In case anyone is wondering WHY I'd want it: I really never drag race, but spend most of my time autocrossing, doing race schools and hitting the road circuit on track days. The auto is useless for this. Really. Also, I hate loosing that extra 7% from the crank to the wheels.

[Vortech347]

Are there any threads already drifting about that pertain to a manual tranny swap? I know that it has been done, and is do-able. One such is featured in the Ford Motorsport Catalogue, but it uses a crate engine and computer, so that doesn't really count. One of the race schools also uses this set-up for their training crown vics.
Just hoping someone has a detailed account of the procedure.
Thanks,
David
PS In case anyone is wondering WHY I'd want it: I really never drag race, but spend most of my time autocrossing, doing race schools and hitting the road circuit on track days. The auto is useless for this. Really. Also, I hate loosing that extra 7% from the crank to the wheels.

You can also keep the RPM where you want it vs the TQ converter hunting around. Also closer gear ratio's will help move the car a bit quicker too. I'm an auto-x whore with my stang. :D I've heard about this too but havn't been able to find anything on the net.

[Blackened300a]

PHP has a Manual Marauder and the tranny keeps breaking in it due to the weight of our cars. I really wish the Manual swap was painless and worked. It would have been my first mod.

[jimlam56]

Manual transmission are becoming a thing of the past.
I had to special order my Ranger a few years ago because nobody had a 5spd in stock with the 4.0 engine.
Also, I was staying at a hotel in downtown Charleston SC a few weeks ago that had valet parking.
The valet came back with a sheepish look on his face saying he had to get someone else to retrieve my car because he couldn't drive a stick!
The end of an era...
I think it would be cool to have a 6 speed Tremec on my Maruader.

[Vortech347]

PHP has a Manual Marauder and the tranny keeps breaking in it due to the weight of our cars. I really wish the Manual swap was painless and worked. It would have been my first mod.

Are they using the T-56? I would think a TKO500 or 600 should be able to work ok. But who knows on fitment.

[Master]

The six speed may not be the best manual. In perusing the Ford Motorsport Catalogue, I recall that there was a 5 speed with a higher tq rating (P/N M-7003-R58C or H) @ 600 ft-lb. The 6 speed (M7003-f) is only good to 440 ft-lb. With the kind of power we're putting down, the extra gear is almost extraneous outside of all-out racetrack warfare. This more robust tranny may well hold up under the extra pounds. Of course, this leads to the inevitable thread "carbon fibre for your MM". Perhaps a little too "Rice" for me, though.
Manuals, btw, are only becoming a thing of the past in North America. And, unfortunately for those of us above the 49th parallel, we always get stuck with the American models, and not the European cars. Look at European Fords. They kick a--. And you wouldn't see BMW, Audi, or Mercedes offer an M or S series without a stick. The sad thing is that our sales guys in North America are big, fat, old dudes who couldn't lift a leg for a clutch if their lives depended on it. Young fellas come in, tell them what they want in a car, and it's dismissed out-of-hand. Word never even gets back to the factory. No wonder we're losing market share to the imports. They listen!
Wow! What a rant! Please, everyone, don't get me going on North American car culture! Its too depressing!

[jimlam56]

The six speed may not be the best manual. In perusing the Ford Motorsport Catalogue, I recall that there was a 5 speed with a higher tq rating (P/N M-7003-R58C or H) @ 600 ft-lb. The 6 speed (M7003-f) is only good to 440 ft-lb. With the kind of power we're putting down, the extra gear is almost extraneous outside of all-out racetrack warfare. This more robust tranny may well hold up under the extra pounds. Of course, this leads to the inevitable thread "carbon fibre for your MM". Perhaps a little too "Rice" for me, though.
Manuals, btw, are only becoming a thing of the past in North America. And, unfortunately for those of us above the 49th parallel, we always get stuck with the American models, and not the European cars. Look at European Fords. They kick a--. And you wouldn't see BMW, Audi, or Mercedes offer an M or S series without a stick. The sad thing is that our sales guys in North America are big, fat, old dudes who couldn't lift a leg for a clutch if their lives depended on it. Young fellas come in, tell them what they want in a car, and it's dismissed out-of-hand. Word never even gets back to the factory. No wonder we're losing market share to the imports. They listen!
Wow! What a rant! Please, everyone, don't get me going on North American car culture! Its too depressing!
I agree with most of what you say except for the young fellas part.
I have taught all my sons to shift manually, but they have VERY few friends who are capable of driving a manual.
So...teach your kids to drive a stick, never know when an emergency occurs where driving a manual is a life or death situation. (hospital, etc).

[Master]

I don't know if its because I'm persuasive (my arguement) or extremely annoying (everyone else's opinion), but I got most of my friends into driving sticks, even to the point where they bought new vehicles with manuals. My Dad taught my mom to drive a stick when she was 45 so she could buy a new Escort when they came out in '81 (step down from the 460 4v Country Squire that my brother wrote off showing off for a girl). Both my wife (former) and girlfriend (hmm, also former. Maybe I am annoying) drove sticks. Or, maybe its a Canada thing - a manual is one step removed from the dogsled :)
Thanks for the support of manuals, though. Good to hear I'm not a lone voice. who do we write to at Ford? I've filled out every questionaire they've sent to me in the most empassioned ("bombastic", if you listen to my friends) way I know how, and yet their entire line-up of new vehicles still come out with manuals in the wuss-engine option and some crappy auto mated to the real performer. So what gives?

[jimlam56]

I don't know if its because I'm persuasive (my arguement) or extremely annoying (everyone else's opinion), but I got most of my friends into driving sticks, even to the point where they bought new vehicles with manuals. My Dad taught my mom to drive a stick when she was 45 so she could buy a new Escort when they came out in '81 (step down from the 460 4v Country Squire that my brother wrote off showing off for a girl). Both my wife (former) and girlfriend (hmm, also former. Maybe I am annoying) drove sticks. Or, maybe its a Canada thing - a manual is one step removed from the dogsled :)
Thanks for the support of manuals, though. Good to hear I'm not a lone voice. who do we write to at Ford? I've filled out every questionaire they've sent to me in the most empassioned ("bombastic", if you listen to my friends) way I know how, and yet their entire line-up of new vehicles still come out with manuals in the wuss-engine option and some crappy auto mated to the real performer. So what gives?
What gives?
Numbers.
Pick any car sold in America that has the option of Manual vs Auto.
I bet that there is NO car (including BMW and Vette, maybe even Viper) where the manual outsells the automatic.
It's all about the numbers...

[RoyLPita]

Did you know that the GTO's 6 speed trans cost $695 more but it is cheaper than the automatic version. Can you guess why????

[Blackened300a]

Did you know that the GTO's 6 speed trans cost $695 more but it is cheaper than the automatic version. Can you guess why????

Cause they come from Down Under mostly with Manuals and Pontiac has to cover costs of the switch for us Lazy American drivers?

[jimlam56]

Roy, I give up.:beer:

[RoyLPita]

Roy, I give up.:beer:

The automatic trannied GTO has a $1300 Gas Guzzler tax.

[MarauderMark]

Master i know you may mean well but at your age driving a stick may kill you..:D

[jimlam56]

Master i know you may mean well but at your age driving a stick may kill you..:D
At his age I hope to just be living unassisted!:D

[Master]

All right, settle down. I've now fixed the birthdate on my profile. '07 should have read '70. So I'm 35. For a couple more days anyway.
Now, if I may, I shall warn everyone of the following danger. It presented itself to me tonight when I should have been on-line defending myself.
When you dig your Marauder out of winter hybernation becuase your winter beater just calved, remember: You do not heel-toe downshift an MM from Drive to Reverse for a quick launch out of an apex. Your first clue should be your left foot going to the floor with no resistance. The second should be that you shouldn't have been in fourth to downshift to third in the first place. If you needed another clue, it would be that horrible sound from under your feet.
I think at this point, you may all safely assume that I am an idiot.
I will stop typing now.

[jdando]

All right, settle down. I've now fixed the birthdate on my profile. '07 should have read '70. So I'm 35. For a couple more days anyway.
Now, if I may, I shall warn everyone of the following danger. It presented itself to me tonight when I should have been on-line defending myself.
When you dig your Marauder out of winter hybernation becuase your winter beater just calved, remember: You do not heel-toe downshift an MM from Drive to Reverse for a quick launch out of an apex. Your first clue should be your left foot going to the floor with no resistance. The second should be that you shouldn't have been in fourth to downshift to third in the first place. If you needed another clue, it would be that horrible sound from under your feet.
I think at this point, you may all safely assume that I am an idiot.
I will stop typing now.

Ouch, I think......

Here is the "best" info I could find on the "cobra-vic" used at Bondurant.

http://www.gulfgt.com/forum/showthread.php?mode=hybrid&t=5688

If you search the forums using "bondurant" you will see several references to the cars. One (or more) was on ebay 6-12 months ago, not sure what it sold for.

Enjoy, jeremy

PS I will not heel and toe my MM tomorrow :)

[SergntMac]

Shifter sick, eh? Wanna play with your stick? Indeed.

Paul installed a complete '03 Cobra powertrain into a Marauder, and that won him high honors as his SEMA "Street Stalker" project Marauder.

Unfortunately, long term durability eleuded Paul, which makes this mod everything short of being declared absolutely fu*king impossible.

There's more to it than just fitment, the list of required changes make it all very expensive, and durability is a whisp of smoke in the wind before you start the car.

If you have seven large laying around with nothing else to do, and do not care if you get out of the PHP parking lot before it breaks, call Paul. But, the last guy who did exactly this, didn't.

Besides...We're not a "manual" culture anymore. Auto trannies are better than manuals for racing, and they are easier to sell to the public, and service under warranty too.

If you must shift your Marauder, buy a manual valve body, but hurry, because evolution is catching up with us. Pretty soon now, we won't have left legs, not for driving anyway...

BTW...I was raised on sticks, for me it's the only way to control a car, and drive. I want to shift gears so bad, I recently flirted with buying a Focus as a daily driver. If I could buy a stick for my Marauder that would last, I would. Even if it just lasted from season to season. But, it won't last that long, and when it comes to winning a race on the race track, I'd lose and I know it, because I would break.

Autos are our only choice now, deal with it. I have...

Just my .02c, carry on gents.

[Donny Carlson]

Shifter sick, eh? Wanna play with your stick? Indeed.

Paul installed a complete '03 Cobra powertrain into a Marauder, and that won him high honors as his SEMA "Street Stalker" project Marauder.

Unfortunately, long term durability eleuded Paul, which makes this mod everything short of being declared absolutely fu*king impossible.

There's more to it than just fitment, the list of required changes make it all very expensive, and durability is a whisp of smoke in the wind before you start the car.

Mac, you know, I was with you on this for a long time, PHP being a prime example of the Marauder just being unsuitable for a manual transmission.

You know more about these things than I do, but after I entered the SSR world and found out about the 6-speed manual SSR, I had to reconsider that suitability. Granted, as you said, there's a lot of things that have to be changed, and from the OEM standpoint, they can engineer things that the regular guy owner may overlook or not be able to afford. But, I wonder why Chevy can offer a 6-speed manual, hooked up to an engine with more hp and torque, and 500 pounds more curb weight than the Marauder. There are two other differences that I know of between the 6-speed manual and the auto - 1) the auto is DEtuned to 395 hp, the manual has the full 400 hp and 2) the Auto has a Torsen limited slip and traction control, the manual does not have limited slip or traction control.

There may be a Ford manual transmission that would work, it could be PHP didn't make the right choice, or didn't modify it (and other things) like they should have.

Then again, they thrashed their Marauder on the race track, I haven't heard of supercharged 6-speed SSR's doing the same. Could be under those conditions, they'd be trailered home as well.

[DOHCMERC]

What gives?
Numbers.
Pick any car sold in America that has the option of Manual vs Auto.
I bet that there is NO car (including BMW and Vette, maybe even Viper) where the manual outsells the automatic.
It's all about the numbers...


The Viper does not have an automatic option.

Cobras are manual only too.

Please school me on the M/M's that have fragged after being converted.

Useless trivia; an '03 Cobra convertible is within a few hundred pounds of a Marauder and the Cobra has almost 100 HP more........Not working in the Merc? Sounds like an installation/engineering quirk if you axe me.

[TooManyFords]

Ford used to make an awesome 4-speed... Some of you might remember it as the Top-Loader. How you get it to mate to a modular, well, that is left as an assignment for extra credit.

I used to put way more than 600hp through these and the only thing I used to replace were the clutch disks. Never, ever broke one. The TKO500 and the toploader share the same bolt pattern to the bellhousing, but the TKO sits closer so you'd need a longer input shaft for the toploader.

I emailed David Kee to see if they have any info on getting the toploader behind a mod motor.

Cheers

john

[wsmylie]

There was a funny scene in a movie awhile back (don't recall the name or who was in it) where some young criminal moron jumps into an occupied vehicle to car- jack it and then goes into a panic tantrum when he realizes it's a stick and he doesn't know how to drive it. He was yelling "Shifter car! Its a shifter car!" or something like that IIRC. :D

[looking97233]

I think I would be more interested in seeing the 5 speed auto from the Avaitor put in an MM.

Rod.

[RCSignals]

Mac, you know, I was with you on this for a long time, PHP being a prime example of the Marauder just being unsuitable for a manual transmission.

You know more about these things than I do, but after I entered the SSR world and found out about the 6-speed manual SSR, I had to reconsider that suitability. Granted, as you said, there's a lot of things that have to be changed, and from the OEM standpoint, they can engineer things that the regular guy owner may overlook or not be able to afford. But, I wonder why Chevy can offer a 6-speed manual, hooked up to an engine with more hp and torque, and 500 pounds more curb weight than the Marauder. There are two other differences that I know of between the 6-speed manual and the auto - 1) the auto is DEtuned to 395 hp, the manual has the full 400 hp and 2) the Auto has a Torsen limited slip and traction control, the manual does not have limited slip or traction control.

There may be a Ford manual transmission that would work, it could be PHP didn't make the right choice, or didn't modify it (and other things) like they should have.

Then again, they thrashed their Marauder on the race track, I haven't heard of supercharged 6-speed SSR's doing the same. Could be under those conditions, they'd be trailered home as well.


Donny, isn't it because the SSR is based on a truck chassis that it is perhaps easier to 'fit' the SSR with a manual?

The Panthers were never designed for a manual transmission, frame or body.

In years past it used to be the auto equipped engines that were rated with slightly higher HP.

[RoyLPita]

There was a funny scene in a movie awhile back (don't recall the name or who was in it) where some young criminal moron jumps into an occupied vehicle to car- jack it and then goes into a panic tantrum when he realizes it's a stick and he doesn't know how to drive it. He was yelling "Shifter car! Its a shifter car!" or something like that IIRC. :D

The movie that has this line is called Buffalo 66. Here is the quote from the Internet Movie Database:

Billy Brown: Is this a shifter car? I cannot drive a shifter car, alright, so we got a little situation here. I can't drive these kinda cars! What the **** is goin' on! You think that's funny? Would you like to know, smartass? Would you like to know why I can't drive this kinda car? I'll tell you why, I'm used to *luxury* cars. Have you ever heard of a luxury car? You know what luxury means? Ever heard of Cadillac, Cadillac Eldorado? That's what I drive. I drive cars that *shift* themselves.

[Master]

Thanks for all of the interesting replies. Its nice to get these discussions going if for nothing greater than their intrinsic value. Gas guzzler taxes, gross sales figures, etc. Quite eye opening.
I would also like to add that I, too, find this group to be most mature in nature. Discussions are open, informative and most importantly, courteous.
I had one post on the Contour.org site when I was interested in that sort of thing. It was my last. After pouring over dyno graphs, I offered an opinion to a member about what some good mods might be, and what ones probably wouldn't offer the best bang for the buck. The violently inflamatory response I got from another member was enough to make me wonder why I even cared.
Thanks for being the group that you are!
- David

[RoyLPita]

Thanks for all of the interesting replies. Its nice to get these discussions going if for nothing greater than their intrinsic value. Gas guzzler taxes, gross sales figures, etc. Quite eye opening.
I would also like to add that I, too, find this group to be most mature in nature. Discussions are open, informative and most importantly, courteous.
I had one post on the Contour.org site when I was interested in that sort of thing. It was my last. After pouring over dyno graphs, I offered an opinion to a member about what some good mods might be, and what ones probably wouldn't offer the best bang for the buck. The violently inflamatory response I got from another member was enough to make me wonder why I even cared.
Thanks for being the group that you are!
- David

David,
Gald to have you aboard.

Actually, I would not mind trying out 2 manual MM projects: 1) with just the Cobra trans/clutch setup & 2001 PCM and 2) Same as 1 but w/ a Trilogy blower, and 2003 Cobra PCM.

[Master]

Definately. I'd like to be in on that, too. Must finish the cams, heads, and exhaust first. Too many projects at once and I get nothing done. I have a history, you know...

[SergntMac]

Donny...You present a good example of what's possible when the manfacturer wants a particular design to move forward. Perhaps the SSR would not be as enticing to the public if the General did not offer a manual tranny. With regard to PHP's effort, yes, some of the stuff available today, was not in stock back when he built the Street Stalker, yet he still won't touch the project, last time I checked.

I'm not saying it's impossible, but it's pretty damn close to that, and costs have to be considered too. I am sure Ford could have engineered the parts, but they would ask "why"? The Marauder is a car built with parts already on hand, and intentionally a "niche" product. To engineer a manual option could have killed the project (again) From Ford's point of view, they feel luck to have sold all 11K builds, and they took the money and ran...IMHO.

DOHCMERC...The Cobra picture isn't as rosey as you may believe, at least not from my point of view. I've been to a few closed track events sponsored by SVTChicago, with a majority of Cobra owners showing up. The stock tranny is flawed, has a weak link in it they are starting to improve with parts from the Viper tranny, and the IRS just cannot take the brutality of it all. I've seen both break, and numerous times too. Another popular mod with the Cobra racers is the solid "live" axle upgrade, and when you add them both together, it gets expensive to get into the 11s. Possible, but expensive.

Another lost art I have noted, is launching techniques, and power shifting, both I remember well from my youth. No one drives like that anymore, except a few pro cars. I've talked with Cobra owners about it, even demonstrated it with a few passes, cut .2 tenths off their ET, but they just don't get it, and they are shy of breaking something (which eventually breaks anyway). They seem content to play among themselves in the low 12s, but they could drop to the 11s if they would spend the right money in the right places. IMHO, the "strength" of the OEM Cobra assembly is an illusion at this time, and they have the same problems Paul encountered. Not until we see some stronger materials and inventive designs, it just ain't gonna work...Just my .02c, carry on gents.

[wsmylie]

Thanks Brian, pretty sure that must be the one I'm thinking of. It was a real funny scene if you are a car guy, definately the best scene in that movie in my humble opinion. Don't remember much else about the film.:D
The movie that has this line is called Buffalo 66. Here is the quote from the Internet Movie Database:

Billy Brown: Is this a shifter car? I cannot drive a shifter car, alright, so we got a little situation here. I can't drive these kinda cars! What the **** is goin' on! You think that's funny? Would you like to know, smartass? Would you like to know why I can't drive this kinda car? I'll tell you why, I'm used to *luxury* cars. Have you ever heard of a luxury car? You know what luxury means? Ever heard of Cadillac, Cadillac Eldorado? That's what I drive. I drive cars that *shift* themselves.

[mtnh]

I drive a Lincoln LS manual. They made them for 3 years, from model year 2000 to model year 2002. The manual option was discontinued then, for the 2003 model year and on. Just as the 3.0 duratec got stronger output due to variable valve/cam timing features were introduced to the engine, too. I used to belong to the lincoln ls owners club, a $35 a year members only forum, and on there, it was disclosed that somewhere around a few thousand, maybe 3000 manual LS were built, which, in 2004, was something like .1% of all LS production! They had little to no choice but to cut it out. The only reason for the LS to have been built with a manual was that the car was built to be used in Europe, but that part of the deployment never happened. So a few of us got lucky and scored a rare bird. The LS V8 was never built with the manual due to the V8 having more torque than the Getrag 5 speed could handle, by the way, but some members of the LLSOC had been pushing hard to get one into production. The best you could hope for was a Jaguar S type R, if you were an LS lover, with a 6-speed automatic with functional select-shift manual shifting available. The Jag S-types share the same underpinnings of the Lincoln LS.

One funny side story here is that last friday, I had stopped by to get a new set of snows for the LS. When it was finished in the garage bay, the owner of the shop came up to me and said, "Mike, you need to get in that car and do whatever it is that you have to do to get it started. Raphael cannot get it to turn over." I said, "did he try pushing in the clutch?" Wow, that place sure did erupt into a good laugh when it was revealed that the poor tire mechanic never noticed the 3rd pedal or the stick shifter!

[Vortech347]

You guys do know that cobra's ONLY come in sticks and they seem to be pretty hot sellers. Also If I remember correctly the dealerships around here that had Mach 1 sticks and Auto's would sell the sticks long before.

Auto's are much better for drag racing when geared/setup correctly. However the world isn't straight 1/4 miles at a time if you drive your baby on the street. My stang will ALWAYS have a Tremec in it.

One of the big reasons the V8 SHO was killed was because it was only avalible with a slushbox. (and its horrificly expensive car specific parts)

[DOHCMERC]

Auto's are much better for drag racing when geared/setup correctly.

Better meaning less breakage, more consistency (bracket classes) etc...

But the FASTEST classes still use a clutch setup...T/F, Pro Stock...etc...

[Master]

WRT the LS, its another soap-box issue for me. Ford seemed to want to prove something that wasn't true until they made it impossible not to be. OK, follow along: Performance enthusiasts, drivers and the like, tend to want a "drivers" car. That would be the top end engine with the best manual tranny available. Ford wants us all to believe that no one like this exists in North America. To prove the point, they offer the LS 5 speed manual with the anemic V-6. I took one for a drive and it was so close in performance to the old V-6 5 speed Tempo that I took it straight back to the lot. Fords comment? "Look. We made a 5 speed and no one wanted it". Wrong! We all wanted the 5-speed. We didn't want it mated to the baby engine. But, of course, Ford didn't want to talk about that. They had made their point. No one wants a manual. Doinks.
OK. Off the soap box again.
Byebye.

[HAULNSS]

This seems odd to me. :twocents:

There are a couple hundred Impala SS's that have been converted to a T56 manual gearbox, me being one of them. The cars weigh close to the same, but a stock Impala probably has more torque.:dunno:

Why are they working so well as manual cars and the Marauder's aren't?

I have about 30k miles on my swap with many road course, autocross and dragstrip runs, without a hiccup. I do huge smokey burnouts and things that would break most vehicles, too. :burn: This is with a tired 175k mile engine that puts out 286 rwhp and 335rwtq. (There are many with much more power and no issues) The conversion turned out so well that many people think it is a factory set up when I attend car shows. At the road course, the 'oohhs and ahhhs' are endless.

This is by far the biggest grin factor of any mod...ask any Impala owner who has done it. :D It also feels like cutting 1000 lbs from the car. Words can't describe the feeling. Severals years and several thousand miles after....I still giggle like a kid when getting second and third gear rubber.

Another benefit? I have gotten 33+ mpg on the highway and average mid 20's in town. :burnout: While not a drag car, I have pulled a 14.1x while playing at the track after a road course event. Gotta love six gears and 4.10's!

Don't be discouraged. Someone must make the manual Marauder a realistic option!!!!!

Randy

[Master]

Randy, I hate to say it, but in a lot of ways Chevy engineers are somewhat brighter than Ford engineers. The same tranny will fit an olds, camaro, and chevette. The same bolt pattern is used on most of their wheels. They like to engineer comonality into their machinery. Ford has a thing for making everything just a little bit different, and somewhat more difficult.
I like Ford's global presence and their forward thinking, but not a lot of their engineering logic or marketing.
(If my Dad ever sees this post, I'll be disowned).
DSF

[DOHCMERC]

DOHCMERC...The Cobra picture isn't as rosey as you may believe, at least not from my point of view. I've been to a few closed track events sponsored by SVTChicago, with a majority of Cobra owners showing up. The stock tranny is flawed, has a weak link in it they are starting to improve with parts from the Viper tranny, and the IRS just cannot take the brutality of it all. I've seen both break, and numerous times too. Another popular mod with the Cobra racers is the solid "live" axle upgrade, and when you add them both together, it gets expensive to get into the 11s. Possible, but expensive.


Was aware of the weak kneed IRS.......thanks for the update on the non-Viper spec T-56...........Typical Ford move.

However, I would think one would use the Viper spec 6 speed if doing a swap which is fairly bullet proof in both Vipers and Corvettes......so what else is "breaking"?

I'm sure greater minds than mine have thought this out, but I'm just perplexed at it not working well.........I mean even the huge body Chryslers were available with manuals back in the day.....friend had a Super Bee/4 speed....farkin' drum brakes with all that torque.....better get it stopped the first time, there was no second chance!!!

[SergntMac]

Yes, I do know that all '03/'04 Cobras are sticks, and an option on the Mach 1 (which also gets an 8 bolt crank and 7000 RPM redline).

I don't know if Ford's real reason for turning away from a stick option will ever be revealed. However, some of us have already torn our rear ends apart with the 4R70/75W in place. I'm on my third rear end, and it's been reinforced (again) with 31 spline Moser axles, and Auburn Pro diff. Other here, such as Lidio, have twisted axles and torn up diffs, and this is with the 20 percent loss in the auto drive train as a buffer. Good Lord, I can imagine what a manual driveline with it's 5-7 percent loss would do.

Oh, wait, I don't have to imagine. I'll just gloss over the repairs and rebuilds of the Street Stalker, and conclude that Ford's designs can't handle the power. (Shrug) What else could it be?

Anyway, here's hoping for some development. I'd love to join the stick club, nevertheless, I'm not holding my breath. Someone give me a nudge when a kit goes on sale.

[DOHCMERC]

WRT the LS, its another soap-box issue for me. Ford seemed to want to prove something that wasn't true until they made it impossible not to be. OK, follow along: Performance enthusiasts, drivers and the like, tend to want a "drivers" car. That would be the top end engine with the best manual tranny available. Ford wants us all to believe that no one like this exists in North America. To prove the point, they offer the LS 5 speed manual with the anemic V-6. I took one for a drive and it was so close in performance to the old V-6 5 speed Tempo that I took it straight back to the lot. Fords comment? "Look. We made a 5 speed and no one wanted it". Wrong! We all wanted the 5-speed. We didn't want it mated to the baby engine. But, of course, Ford didn't want to talk about that. They had made their point. No one wants a manual. Doinks.
OK. Off the soap box again.
Byebye.


There's a flip side to that very true scenario.........people blamed slow SHO sales (the V6) on not being available with an auto......Ford put in a POS, fragile as glass slush box that sapped the life outta the jewel of a motor (Marauder anyone??)....and it still didn't sell.

[DOHCMERC]

Randy, I hate to say it, but in a lot of ways Chevy engineers are somewhat brighter than Ford engineers. The same tranny will fit an olds, camaro, and chevette. The same bolt pattern is used on most of their wheels. They like to engineer comonality into their machinery. Ford has a thing for making everything just a little bit different, and somewhat more difficult.
I like Ford's global presence and their forward thinking, but not a lot of their engineering logic or marketing.
(If my Dad ever sees this post, I'll be disowned).
DSF

Right on...........I've always said the MAIN reason for the popularity of the SBC was the interchangability and long production runs.


I actually laughed when I learned there were 2 versions of the Mod motors...makes Modular (which I associate with interchangability) sorta an oxymoron.

My favorite (sarcasim key depressed) was the years Ford had 3 DIFFERENT 351's available!!!

We are gluttons for punishment...:cool:

[mercmatt]

i wish these things had the autostick. the best of both worlds

[jimlam56]

I drive a Lincoln LS manual. They made them for 3 years, from model year 2000 to model year 2002. The manual option was discontinued then, for the 2003 model year and on. Just as the 3.0 duratec got stronger output due to variable valve/cam timing features were introduced to the engine, too. I used to belong to the lincoln ls owners club, a $35 a year members only forum, and on there, it was disclosed that somewhere around a few thousand, maybe 3000 manual LS were built, which, in 2004, was something like .1% of all LS production! They had little to no choice but to cut it out. The only reason for the LS to have been built with a manual was that the car was built to be used in Europe, but that part of the deployment never happened. So a few of us got lucky and scored a rare bird. The LS V8 was never built with the manual due to the V8 having more torque than the Getrag 5 speed could handle, by the way, but some members of the LLSOC had been pushing hard to get one into production. The best you could hope for was a Jaguar S type R, if you were an LS lover, with a 6-speed automatic with functional select-shift manual shifting available. The Jag S-types share the same underpinnings of the Lincoln LS.

One funny side story here is that last friday, I had stopped by to get a new set of snows for the LS. When it was finished in the garage bay, the owner of the shop came up to me and said, "Mike, you need to get in that car and do whatever it is that you have to do to get it started. Raphael cannot get it to turn over." I said, "did he try pushing in the clutch?" Wow, that place sure did erupt into a good laugh when it was revealed that the poor tire mechanic never noticed the 3rd pedal or the stick shifter!
Funny you mention the manual LS. I looked long and hard for one before I bought the Marauder, no luck.

[jimlam56]

Thanks for all of the interesting replies. Its nice to get these discussions going if for nothing greater than their intrinsic value. Gas guzzler taxes, gross sales figures, etc. Quite eye opening.
I would also like to add that I, too, find this group to be most mature in nature. Discussions are open, informative and most importantly, courteous.
I had one post on the Contour.org site when I was interested in that sort of thing. It was my last. After pouring over dyno graphs, I offered an opinion to a member about what some good mods might be, and what ones probably wouldn't offer the best bang for the buck. The violently inflamatory response I got from another member was enough to make me wonder why I even cared.
Thanks for being the group that you are!
- David

David:
I couldn't agree more. I recently bought my son an SVT Contour (great little car by the way), and checked out the same site. Sorry, my time is too valuable to waste with juveniles that are more interested in venom than the subject matter. I have learned volumes about my Marauder here, made some friends and hope to make more, and am proud to belong to this elite (and mostly civil) group.
Jim:beer:

[Breadfan]

Everyone keeps talking about the T45 6spd, but isn't that just merely an upgraded T-5? And the T56 traces its roots to the T5 too right?

The T5 was originaly designed to sit behind low powered 4cyl engines.

Upgraded as they have, they have somehow made it to what they are today, and can handle plenty of power. But, they're still fragile, and their roots are indicitive of that.

The Tremec TKO series is much stronger.

Also, what is the Richmond 6spd based on?

How about using one of these? They might handle the power better...


That being said, we're talking about similar tranny's that handle more power and more weight in other cars breaking the first day in the Marauder. So, that leads me to believe this has nothing to do with the power handling or weight of the car, but perhaps a fitment problem that is causing an out-of alignment condition or vibration that is destroying the trans. Could the simply be a fitment/refinement issue rather than a power handling issue?

[Joe Walsh]

Ford used to make an awesome 4-speed... Some of you might remember it as the Top-Loader. How you get it to mate to a modular, well, that is left as an assignment for extra credit.

I used to put way more than 600hp through these and the only thing I used to replace were the clutch disks. Never, ever broke one. The TKO500 and the toploader share the same bolt pattern to the bellhousing, but the TKO sits closer so you'd need a longer input shaft for the toploader.

I emailed David Kee to see if they have any info on getting the toploader behind a mod motor.

Cheers

john

Yep,
Tremec is basically an aluminum case Top Loader.
I'm sure that someone has already made an adapter plate to do exactly this...

[Vortech347]

T-45's are similar to a T-5 but they are MUCH MUCH stronger and better tranny's. About the only thing that will kill them is 500ftlbs or really crappy driving. They're NOTHING like the Glass T-5's. T-45's also have a built in bell housing (making tranny swaps a PAIN)

T-56's are very different. There is about 15 different versions of them ranging from 400ftlb capacity to 600ftlb. With all sorts of different gear ratios and bell housing mounts.

The only trans I'd even think about sticking in these cars is a TKO600 or G-force T-56. I have an older Tremec 3550 in my stang and as it sits now i've pumped slightly over 600ft-lbs through it without any breakage and I've beat on it for 4 years without a rebuild.

I don't think it would be that hard to get a TKO600 and modular bell housing. The rest who knows. I havn't even been under my merc yet. :)

[DOHCMERC]

Everyone keeps talking about the T45 6spd, but isn't that just merely an upgraded T-5? And the T56 traces its roots to the T5 too right?
...


That being said, we're talking about similar tranny's that handle more power and more weight in other cars breaking the first day in the Marauder. So, that leads me to believe this has nothing to do with the power handling or weight of the car, but perhaps a fitment problem that is causing an out-of alignment condition or vibration that is destroying the trans. Could the simply be a fitment/refinement issue rather than a power handling issue?


I'll double check, but I don't think anybody mentioned a T-45 6 speed......because there isn't one.......

Like the previous post implied, the T-45 is supposed to be a step up from the T-5 introduced with the Mod motors. Still have heard of failure when drag racing with any kind of traction.

I believe the T-56 6 speed to be a totally different animal....longer, beefier, heavier.

Useless trivia; At some point Tremec(of TKO fame) took over building the T-5.

Your last paragraph is sorta what I've been alluding to.......there seems to be a problem other than the strength of the parts....IMHO.

[SergntMac]

That being said, we're talking about similar tranny's that handle more power and more weight in other cars breaking the first day in the Marauder. So, that leads me to believe this has nothing to do with the power handling or weight of the car, but perhaps a fitment problem that is causing an out-of alignment condition or vibration that is destroying the trans. Could the simply be a fitment/refinement issue rather than a power handling issue? Paul Svinicki of Pauls'l High Performance in Jackson, MI., does a lot of hand in hand work with Ford. (www.paulshp.com) Things like field testing particular mods, developing/refining powertrain components and fuel systems, and so on. Hands-on prototype stuff, he's very well connected inside Ford, and very popular, both with Ford and the media. Brilliant craftsmanship, I've seen some of his FMC projects.

Flawed engineering is always a possibility, but no more flawed than Ford's own engineering. I've met a few engineers, both inside and outside Ford (Roush, PHP), and the way they tell it, Ford has a history of handing out research projects for field testing, and when the testing is complete and results submitted, Ford ignores that and does what it wants to do anyway.

I'd say the probability of flawed engineering is very low, and I'd consider challenging the quality and durability of the individual parts involved before I'd question fitment, or, assembly. Now, I will take a guess at something.

Despite being offered as much as 7K for a manual tranny conversion to a Marauder, Paul refuses to consider the task. Why? Easy...Durability of parts is absent, and once you lay down your cash, and break on the way home, who will you blame? Paul, of course, who else is there to blame? If I were in his shoes, and knowing how customers act and react to failure of extrreme mods and experimental projects, I wouldn't do it for 10K, Hell, I wouldn't do it at all, which is Paul's position.

Here's just one "case in point" from the Marauder's own history. '03-300A models suffered from weak rear axle bearings that resulted in a TSB (03-05-55[Funny how that number matches our stock final drive ratio, eh?]) that repaired the flaw. The blame was cited as "poorly manfactured axles and bearings from an outside supplier." I could write another paragraph on early tranny problems, spiral retention springs and so on, but I've made my point.

While Ford is ultimately responsible for the quality control and durability of parts used to build Ford products, they too, are sometimes disappointed by outsourced suppliers. This alone, could be the heart of the problem. While I can't say for sure, I have watched a lot of '03-'04 Cobras come apart at the track, and I just don't get that.

Hey, it's not all bad. Tomorrow, someone may come up with a responsible solution at a reasonable cost, and off we go, eh?

[Vortech347]

Sargntmac; could you PM me more info about that TSB? If its not done on my car yet I'd better get it done.

[Breadfan]

BTW for the record, I certainly have no intent to elude that the issues were poor engineering on Paul's part. Sounds like he did a great job trying the kit out, and super kudos to being the first to step up and make an attempt.

I do know that on complex systems even the best of engineering can't overcome hidden issues. Sometimes seemingly unrelated items can cause an issue. Is this the case with Paul's setup? Most likely not...but, I'm a firm believer that in complex systems your gremlins can be hidden in the most unlikely of spots.

So, just threw it out as a point of ponderence, certainly not a hit at anyone. :)

As for the T- series transmissions, I know there are alot of versions, but as far as I'm concerned they all trace roots to something originally designed to handle a small amount of power. Yes it can be re-engineered to do much more, and the strong versions today are nothing like their distant ancestors. But, the ancestry does still exist, and strong or not, I seem to be under the impression the TKO series trannys (which have a strong ancestry) seem to still handle a bit more punishment. But, I'm often incorrect. :)

I like this discussion, I'd like to see a manual Marauder, and even more I'd like to know why the setups tried did not work out.

And Mac, maybe I'll pull a 1-2 powershift tommorrow in my 'stang. ;) (Nothing illegal or unsafe of course.)

[Master]

I, too, would be interested in the TSB. My Marauder has never been overhauled for such a defect. Perhaps its S/N dependent?
BTW: I used to have an (83?) Escort that would power shift beautifully. Only up, though, which was fine. You could rattle through gears like an F1. With the 225/50/15 all around the thing was crazy on a road course (and I do mean "road" course as I hadn't discovered autocrossing yet).
I don't know why I felt the need to share that. Maybe to hint at my inauspicious beginnings. Maybe I'm just lonely... :)

[Donny Carlson]

Donny, isn't it because the SSR is based on a truck chassis that it is perhaps easier to 'fit' the SSR with a manual?

The Panthers were never designed for a manual transmission, frame or body.

In years past it used to be the auto equipped engines that were rated with slightly higher HP.

Yeah, Duncan, you are probably very right about this, re Panthers not being designed for manual trannys.

The de-tuning for the auto trans has to do with heat in the transmission. Previous year SSR's with the 5.3 had transmission temp gauges, and owners complained frequently about how hot their transmissions were reading. When they went to the 6.0L, they upgraded the transmission... but not the cooling, and I've seen some figures that show that with the gearing in the "beefier" transmission, they had to detune the engine slightly to keep the temps in the transmission from getting seriously high and still meet it's trailering requirement. I know that the "normal" operating temp is 210, and idle speed temps can reach 235 (which Chevy also considers normal). If my Marauder ever showed 235, I'd need a change of underwear. (according to Chevy service document, the radiator fan does not turn on until 216, then it doesn't engage high speed unless you turn on the air conditioning or reach 235. That has owners turning on their AC even with the top down while sitting in traffic -- to keep from reaching 235). When you consider the transmission cooler is in the radiator..... well, it's just getting way too hot. That's why an auxiliary cooler is on my list.

Oh, and Chevy solved the trans temp gauge complaints. They replaced it in '05 with a gauge that shows outside air temp. :o Like you need one on a convertible.

[Vortech347]

http://www.g-forcetransmissions.com/productoverview.asp

Read up...Goooooooooood stuff I don't think anyone here including the 500/500 MM could take out that T-56 unless you drive like a 16 year old girl scared of a clutch.

[Master]

Oh, now I remember why I was talking about power shifting. It raises a question regarding "Tip-tronic"-style trannys. Unless I am misunderstanding, the latest craze for paddle shifters and up-down shifters in the console (and keep in mind I'm not talking about Ferraris here) is simply a way for people who can't drive manuals to look like they can. Sort of like that dummy steering wheel you give little children to make them feel like they are driving the car. I've tried a few (Acura and Dodge specifically), and they are pretty lame. We can do exactly the same thing with the MM by moving the lever forward and back (again, I don't recommend using reverse). In fact, this is how I've managed to get the car to perform at all on track days. It would be nice, however, to have detents to go only one gear at a time.
If these guys had "real" tiptronics or "paddle" shifters, they'd actually have pneumatically actuated manual transmissions with a computer that ties throttle position to gear selection to ignition cut-out (and on and on) for seamless up/down shifts. Just like Ferraris, F-1s and WRC cars. Anything else is just for show, and it can stay in the parts bin with the automatics. No offence to anyone intended, and I'd of course welcome a counterpoint.
David

[Master]

Hey Matt,
This "Face-tooth Engagement System". I can't tell from the diagrams, but it sounds like what bikes use. In the case of bikes, though, its called a constant mesh transmission. All the gear faces stay in contact with one-another, and "dog" gears are slid in and out by the forks to select the appropriate gear pair.
If this is the case, then you would have a very tough tranny indeed. You'd also have one that was ready for clutchless shifting (though I'd still use an ignition cut-out so the torque spike didn't take out the gears).
I don't know, though, so maybe someone who is more

[Breadfan]

..........Someone tell me how to delete a post when you've accidentally hit the "post" button too often.

Thanks,
David

Should be a button to click when you "Edit" the post you want to delete.

[Master]

Thanks much,
David

[Breadfan]

Oh, now I remember why I was talking about power shifting. It raises a question regarding "Tip-tronic"-style trannys. Unless I am misunderstanding, the latest craze for paddle shifters and up-down shifters in the console (and keep in mind I'm not talking about Ferraris here) is simply a way for people who can't drive manuals to look like they can. Sort of like that dummy steering wheel you give little children to make them feel like they are driving the car. I've tried a few (Acura and Dodge specifically), and they are pretty lame. We can do exactly the same thing with the MM by moving the lever forward and back (again, I don't recommend using reverse). In fact, this is how I've managed to get the car to perform at all on track days. It would be nice, however, to have detents to go only one gear at a time.
If these guys had "real" tiptronics or "paddle" shifters, they'd actually have pneumatically actuated manual transmissions with a computer that ties throttle position to gear selection to ignition cut-out (and on and on) for seamless up/down shifts. Just like Ferraris, F-1s and WRC cars. Anything else is just for show, and it can stay in the parts bin with the automatics. No offence to anyone intended, and I'd of course welcome a counterpoint.
David

Aside from top end versions, most of these are just electronically controlled automatics.

Most of the "manual" automatics in today's cars are pretty much what you said - one step above kiddie wheels with fake shifters. I had a brand new Subaru Outback rental when I was traveling in Dearborn, and it had a "manual" option. Tried it out...what a joke! The shifts were delayed, and yes it was smart enough to not let me downshift to 1st at 60mph. ;) (Hey I just had to try! Honestly though, I knew the answer before I tried...)

All these things are is a computer that controls the gear selection of the automatic based on the users input from the "stick". It's got plenty of algorithms to override the stupidity of the majority of people who use them (and will try going to 1st in 60 not as a test but becuase they don't know better.)

Many of them will also automatically upshift if you run it up to the rev-limiter. The Subaru didn't appear to, but I didn't hold it at the rev-limited for more than a second anyway...

As for the top end ones, they are basically tried and true manual transmissions with electornically controlled hydraulically actuated clutches. The response time on them is super quick so they allow the vehicle to shift quicker than a human could apply the clutch, shift the gear, and release the clutch. It can also be programmed to allow smooth operations at low throttle inputs and sharp, quick response when the pedal hits the metal.

If you ask me the only reason to go from a true manual to a paddle style system is the speed the shifts can occur and the fact that the racer can keep both hands on the wheel and have a bit better control.

It's less glamorous purpose is to give snooty millionaires the ability to actually drive their Ferrari F430 since they couldn't clutch to save their lives...

[MM03MOK]

Should be a button to click when you "Edit" the post you want to delete.You can erase your post but you can't delete it. I just did for Master.....

:bunny: the button pusher

[Todd TCE]

You guys might want to contact Josh at www.bigfastcar.com
He's been doing Impala 6spds for the past five years. I know- I build his pedal kits.

[Rider90]

You guys might want to contact Josh at www.bigfastcar.com
He's been doing Impala 6spds for the past five years. I know- I build his pedal kits.
He'll get twenty-five e-mails asking about manual transmissions for the Marauder and of those he'll have, maybe, one customer.

[Vortech347]

Hey Matt,
This "Face-tooth Engagement System". I can't tell from the diagrams, but it sounds like what bikes use. In the case of bikes, though, its called a constant mesh transmission. All the gear faces stay in contact with one-another, and "dog" gears are slid in and out by the forks to select the appropriate gear pair.
If this is the case, then you would have a very tough tranny indeed. You'd also have one that was ready for clutchless shifting (though I'd still use an ignition cut-out so the torque spike didn't take out the gears).
I don't know, though, so maybe someone who is more
You can get the tranny's with the dog gears and powershift away without the clutch. However they have synchro'd versions that still take 450-500ft-lbs for the T-5 and 600-650 for the T-56. I've driven a G-forced T-5 with the synchro style and it shifted just as smooth as a stock T-5. However installing it...HAHAH it weighed alot more and it definatly makes more noise inside the car. I still like Tremec 3550/TKO's better though.

[jimlam56]

He'll get twenty-five e-mails asking about manual transmissions for the Marauder and of those he'll have, maybe, one customer.
Sounds like another project we know of, eh?:rolleyes:

[RCSignals]

I, too, would be interested in the TSB. My Marauder has never been overhauled for such a defect. Perhaps its S/N dependent?
....................


It's fault dependent, unless you have a CVPI or Taxi.
There is no way they can tell which cars got which axle setups, apparently. So you only get the TSB done if you have a failure, or you can convince your dealer to do it anyway.

[Master]

I may be a glutton for punishment, and if the comments here are accurate, then I'm an idiot, too. However, I'd be interested in letting a serious professional like Josh use my Marauder as a test car. Its probably a dumb idea to volunteer, but as I lay my car up for 4 months a year anyway, it would be a good candidate. I'd just need to have a good sit-down with a potential builder to see if everything felt right.
Any such builder would also have to meet the high standards, and have the blessing of, the MM community as well.
Just my 2c.

[Breadfan]

It's fault dependent, unless you have a CVPI or Taxi.
There is no way they can tell which cars got which axle setups, apparently. So you only get the TSB done if you have a failure, or you can convince your dealer to do it anyway.

If you ever upgrade the rear gears you have your installer check the axle bearings based on the TSB. If there is a problem, have them button it back up and head to the dealer. So by my logic, if you want to know for sure, get 4.10 gears. ;) ;) ;)

[Todd TCE]

He'll get twenty-five e-mails asking about manual transmissions for the Marauder and of those he'll have, maybe, one customer.

You might be right. I dunno.

On the other hand when he started the project with the SS I'd have never believed he'd sell about 150 of them or so! It slowed this past year so maybe he's looking for a new project. Don't know if he is much of a Ford man but he does have the basics of 'how to' in place for the project. That's probably more than most enthusiasts here. Can't hurt to ask.

[Breadfan]

You might be right. I dunno.

On the other hand when he started the project with the SS I'd have never believed he'd sell about 150 of them or so! It slowed this past year so maybe he's looking for a new project. Don't know if he is much of a Ford man but he does have the basics of 'how to' in place for the project. That's probably more than most enthusiasts here. Can't hurt to ask.

Based on what we've heard here I doubt there will be a big jump at first due to reliability concerns. If it was proven to work though, I am certain a number of folks here would jump.

Don't forget there are also other Marauder owners who don't come here. I met a guy with an '04 DTR and a Trilogy who had never heard of this site. I'm guessing there are a fair number of big-car enthusiasts who like shifting their own gears too. ;)

[SergntMac]

Anyone looking for a test car, let's talk. My Kenny Brown #1x is all about testing stuff, she'll do it.

[TripleTransAm]

This "Face-tooth Engagement System". I can't tell from the diagrams, but it sounds like what bikes use. In the case of bikes, though, its called a constant mesh transmission. All the gear faces stay in contact with one-another, and "dog" gears are slid in and out by the forks to select the appropriate gear pair.


Isn't this what is basically called 'syncromesh' which is what is used in all 'synchronized' transmissions nowadays? (ie. pretty much all trannies since maybe the 70s if not earlier?). What's the difference between 'dog' gears and the synchronizers?

[cyclone03]

Ford used to make an awesome 4-speed... Some of you might remember it as the Top-Loader. How you get it to mate to a modular, well, that is left as an assignment for extra credit.

I used to put way more than 600hp through these and the only thing I used to replace were the clutch disks. Never, ever broke one. The TKO500 and the toploader share the same bolt pattern to the bellhousing, but the TKO sits closer so you'd need a longer input shaft for the toploader.

I emailed David Kee to see if they have any info on getting the toploader behind a mod motor.

Cheers

john

McCleod has a bell housing that will do the job.
Top loaders are tough,but I broke mine,twice.
First time I missed a shift and cleaned all the syncro teath off second.
Second one I broke the input shaft.
2.32 close ratio box. The input shaft,stock,on those has a grove machined into it thats where it broke.

I replaced a top loader in my '64 Comet with a Trmec 5spd by shortening the input shaft about 5/8".