Drivers find a snitch under the hood

[MERCMAN]

This is somethng that has been discussed on our board

http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/editorials/2006-01-05-black-box-edit_x.htm?csp=N009

[grampaws]

There have already been several cases where individuals
have been prosecuted..in Ontario because of these little black
boxes..read the owners manual it will tell you if your other vehicles
already have one..Each case has proven to protect the innocent
victims of careless drivers...

[LiLWrink]

There is a local story here, a guy discovered that his new Caddy that Zigs, had one of these devises, and that he paid a local technician to remove and reprogram/disable some of the annoying contrivances on the car by altering this devise. (Evidentally this man is one of those guys who is afraid / suspicious of those little black helicoptors...) Paid something ridiculous to have this done, then during this process, upon reinstallation, the computerised systems on the vehicle would no longer function. Some type of an anti-tamper program had been installed by the manufacturer, and the technicians had unkowingly had triggered a complete system shutdown on this vehicle.
To my knowledge this car has not been repaired yet and this man is in a lawsuit because of the extent of the cost and damages.
There are rumors about his going to court because of his being prosecuted on tampering charges...
Word has it, this devise cannot be reprogrammed or altered, the codependant ecm's systems will not function without this devise being enabled, and it is mega expensive to replace.

You guys be careful!

I hope to see you all some light shed on this, because I feel that the sale of this devise on a nonregulated term is just another way to ultimatly screw the ordinary guy...and that should be a crime!:bs:

[dwasson]

This article talks about it as being separate from the ECM. I've read that prosecutors are getting the data from the ECM. It would be much more difficult to disable it if it were intgegral to the ECM. Modern ECMs store data to "learn" how you drive and adjust the engne parameters. Maybe a program chane could be made that would erase the data when the car was shut off. If that was possible would it degrade the performance of the car? When you remove the power from the ECM, your car can run bad for a while until the ECM "learns" how you drive again.

[carfixer]

In the event of a crash where the air bags deploy, the data is stored in the RCM (restraint control module). There is no way to clear the data. The module must be replaced after a crash.

[SergntMac]

In the event of a crash where the air bags deploy, the data is stored in the RCM (restraint control module). There is no way to clear the data. The module must be replaced after a crash. I haven't been able to erase anything, but I can manipulate it to some degree, with this...

http://www.davisnet.com/drive/index.asp

The Davis chip is a neat scan tool, and you can down load your crash file, which records records the last 20 seconds of vehicle operation before a "hard braking", or, "hard acceleration" event. No collision or air bag deployment is necessary, the data is constantly fed into memory and the last 20 seconds are ripped as a snapshot when you slam on the brakes, or launch hard. It looks like this, which is a dyno pull from last March.

View Accident Log Stop 58
Table Elapsed Time (MPH)
1 -0:00:19 24
2 -0:00:18 41
3 -0:00:17 58
4 -0:00:16 72
5 -0:00:15 86
6 -0:00:14 95
7 -0:00:13 105
8 -0:00:12 115
9 -0:00:11 114
10 -0:00:10 106
11 -0:00:09 94
12 -0:00:08 84
13 -0:00:07 71
14 -0:00:06 64
15 -0:00:05 54
16 -0:00:04 41
17 -0:00:03 35
18 -0:00:02 25
19 -0:00:01 14
20 0:00:00 0

The default setting are .28g and .48g, and the Davis chip allows you to reset to higher thresholds, like 1g respectively. I've tested this and I was able to manipulate the data collection, but came to reset it to factory defaults. Tampering with restraint systems may have some penalties, I don't know.

IMHO, this black box can hang me if I am wrong, and it can protect me too, from false accusations of my driving behavior prior to a collision, even when someone says I was speeding.

Last year while in FLA, I got bumped from behind. No big deal, but I was able to collect that collision data and show my insurance guy that I was at a dead stop when hit. Of course, he also saw my 115 MPH speeds from our track events, but copies of my time slips gave him a chuckle. BTW, it records only 300 hours of driving, so, some of the goofy stuff you did two years ago, is gone..Whew!

For the money involved, it's a handy tool, moreso with teen aged drivers in the family. Great for documenting vehicle use for tax reasosn as well.

Like it or not, it's there. Let's hope the lawmakers do the right thing when managing this with law.

[DEFYANT]

Like requiring a search warrant to get that info!

Every squad car that is wrecked gets examined like this.

umm, Mac.... will you be bringing this handy lil device reader to Sebring?

[metroplex]

The current PCM appears to be able to record a small amount of data.
OBD-III is supposed to have built-in GPS capabilities (if not already in some OBD-II vehicles).

OnStar is an example of how they can remotely access small functions in your cars. When you go with a drive by wire system (electric steering, electric brakes, electric throttle, electric water pump, solenoid actuated valves, etc...) LEOs can push a button to disable your vehicle or kill everyone inside. The money the Caddy owner spent to disable the system could have been spent to convert the car to a 4-bbl carburetor. They sell intake manifolds for the 4.6 4V/2V to take a 4-bbl Holley or Edelbrock. A better solution would be to switch to an older generation fuel injection system (like the EEC-IV late 80s Ford MPFI) which utilizes a basic computer, injectors, etc...

[hitchhiker]

I haven't been able to erase anything, but I can manipulate it to some degree, with this...

http://www.davisnet.com/drive/index.asp

The Davis chip is a neat scan tool, and you can down load your crash file, which records records the last 20 seconds of vehicle operation before a "hard braking", or, "hard acceleration" event. No collision or air bag deployment is necessary, the data is constantly fed into memory and the last 20 seconds are ripped as a snapshot when you slam on the brakes, or launch hard. It looks like this, which is a dyno pull from last March.

View Accident Log Stop 58
Table Elapsed Time (MPH)
1 -0:00:19 24
2 -0:00:18 41
3 -0:00:17 58
4 -0:00:16 72
5 -0:00:15 86
6 -0:00:14 95
7 -0:00:13 105
8 -0:00:12 115
9 -0:00:11 114
10 -0:00:10 106
11 -0:00:09 94
12 -0:00:08 84
13 -0:00:07 71
14 -0:00:06 64
15 -0:00:05 54
16 -0:00:04 41
17 -0:00:03 35
18 -0:00:02 25
19 -0:00:01 14
20 0:00:00 0

The default setting are .28g and .48g, and the Davis chip allows you to reset to higher thresholds, like 1g respectively. I've tested this and I was able to manipulate the data collection, but came to reset it to factory defaults. Tampering with restraint systems may have some penalties, I don't know.

IMHO, this black box can hang me if I am wrong, and it can protect me too, from false accusations of my driving behavior prior to a collision, even when someone says I was speeding.

Last year while in FLA, I got bumped from behind. No big deal, but I was able to collect that collision data and show my insurance guy that I was at a dead stop when hit. Of course, he also saw my 115 MPH speeds from our track events, but copies of my time slips gave him a chuckle. BTW, it records only 300 hours of driving, so, some of the goofy stuff you did two years ago, is gone..Whew!

For the money involved, it's a handy tool, moreso with teen aged drivers in the family. Great for documenting vehicle use for tax reasosn as well.

Like it or not, it's there. Let's hope the lawmakers do the right thing when managing this with law.

Thanks for the information!

Best Regards,

David

[dwasson]

Like it or not, it's there. Let's hope the lawmakers do the right thing when managing this with law.


There's no reason to think they will do the right thing.

[SergntMac]

Like requiring a search warrant to get that info! I hope so, that's the protocol being hammered out here as we speak. But, as is will go sometimes, the issue gets clogged up with a dealership's need to access this data for service, and they can clearly use it for warranty claims, so, like your credit history, some say the data is not your property to begin with, and the Service Manager can share this record with anyone he chooses.
Every squad car that is wrecked gets examined like this. Yep, us too, and we're also downloading after chases even without collisions. Guys are taking time over their top speed on city streets.
umm, Mac.... will you be bringing this handy lil device reader to Sebring? Prolly...But if you want to borrow it sooner, Charlie, drop me a mailing addy at my e-mail. Once you try it, you'll prolly want your own.

[G-Man]

There are rumors about his going to court because of his being prosecuted on tampering charges...


What tampering charges? He bought the car and all that came with it. He can do whatever he wants with his own personal property so long as he doesn't endanger anyone.

[JMan]

The crash data in our cars is non-volatile once triggered and is contained in the Restraint Control Module (RCM or Airbag module.). It will contain approx. 1 sec. of data before deployment or a near deployment. Many data parameters are stored for retrieval. That module can withstand extreme conditions somewhat like the black box recorders on an airplane. It requires some special software to retrieve it afterwards. Many law enforcement agencies have that s/w. I believe on the second page of our owner's manual it states our cars may be equipped with a recording device for the inflatable restraint system. It does - trust me on this.

There is no realistic way to defeat or remove this system, legally. You are the owner of it however. In the case of a catastrophic crash, you are entitled to your property and are in your right to destroy it. But it does exist and could be subject to subpoena if there was some wrong doing or criminal intent involved. Those terms are subject to interpretation and therefore can become extremely broad. Be forewarned!:shake:

If you'd like to know or read more, search CDR or the site named MFES
http://www.mfes.com/

If you're a technoid freak like me you'll love this stuff.
Don't freak out, it could verify your story or villify your complaintant!

The technoid one,:D

J

[1stMerc]

The crash data in our cars is non-volatile once triggered and is contained in the Restraint Control Module (RCM or Airbag module.). It will contain approx. 1 sec. of data before deployment or a near deployment. Many data parameters are stored for retrieval. That module can withstand extreme conditions somewhat like the black box recorders on an airplane. It requires some special software to retrieve it afterwards. Many law enforcement agencies have that s/w. I believe on the second page of our owner's manual it states our cars may be equipped with a recording device for the inflatable restraint system. It does - trust me on this.

There is no realistic way to defeat or remove this system, legally. You are the owner of it however. In the case of a catastrophic crash, you are entitled to your property and are in your right to destroy it. But it does exist and could be subject to subpoena if there was some wrong doing or criminal intent involved. Those terms are subject to interpretation and therefore can become extremely broad. Be forewarned!:shake:

If you'd like to know or read more, search CDR or the site named MFES
http://www.mfes.com/

If you're a technoid freak like me you'll love this stuff.
Don't freak out, it could verify your story or villify your complaintant!

The technoid one,:D

J
According to this site our cars do not have "snitch boxes".http://www.harristechnical.com/downloads/cdrlist.pdf

[QWK SVT]

According to this site our cars do not have "snitch boxes".http://www.harristechnical.com/downloads/cdrlist.pdf

How do you figure? If the 2003 and 2004 Ford Crown Victoria and Mercury Grand Marquis have data recorders, it stands to reason we do, too...

[RCSignals]

In the event of a crash where the air bags deploy, the data is stored in the RCM (restraint control module). There is no way to clear the data. The module must be replaced after a crash.


And really that is it's real and basic purpose.

It is not meant to be a 'spy' device. Use of the data for anything but crash analysis/performance of safety equipment such as airbags may be unconstitutional in the US. I'm not sure if this has been 'tested' yet though.

In Canada, it is open for any use, until someone finds a section of the 'new' Canadian constitution that such use may be in violation of.

[RCSignals]

How do you figure? If the 2003 and 2004 Ford Crown Victoria and Mercury Grand Marquis have data recorders, it stands to reason we do, too...


Yes. I can't be bothered to look right now, but As I recall, you'll find reference to it in your owners manual.

[DEFYANT]

I was hesitent in posting this. The lil box is on the trans hump under the rug below the center guages.

If you fiddle with it you will disable you car. So dont bother. If the info is retrieved and used against you, you have a good civil law suit. Keep that in mind and just leave it alone.

Mac, please bring that scanner to Florida. I think you are right, another gizmo for my toy box!

[seans]

Here in CT, our state police union is complaining about this. If a trooper is involved in an accident, the state police remove the box and turn it over to what ever department is investigating the accident. Apparently the brass are also planning on using this for disciplinary action as well.

[SergntMac]

According to this site our cars do not have "snitch boxes".http://www.harristechnical.com/downloads/cdrlist.pdf Please go back and read this again? The cover sheet explains that this is a list of vehicles that are compatable with their software. The list jumps from 1999 to 2006, that's a serious gap in time, with a lot of development in the science they may not have participated in.

The cover sheet also says that vehicles not listed have recorders that use other methods for collecting and reading data, looks like Ford products use a proprietary technology.

Rest assured our Marauder have recorders, I've read EECs from June of 2002, through the last run, catch code MAV2, with my Davis chip. I have also loaned it out to a surburban PD for an internal crash investigation, the officer was cleared. My friendly dealership has borrowed it to settle a warranty claim on an '04 Marauder. The block was windowed at cylinder 3 and 4, and it was a mess. The owner claimed to be cruising I-57, just minding his own business when the dash lit up all the lights. Mysetriously, the battery also came undone when the engine blew, however, that didn't matter. Seven bullet holes stiched down the driver's side and across the trunk were disturbing, and the dealership called me.

The gentleman's "cruise" down I-57, was over 112 miles per hour, apparently he was running for his life? The oil filter was found to be the production line filter, and there was over 8k miles on the car, without an oil change. Bullet holes aside, clearly owner abuse and this information was shared with a factory rep who came out to see the failed engine. Ford bought the engine, but the bullet holes were deemed "owner's responsibility." Go figure.

The data is there and removing a battery cable will not clear it. It's there until overwritten by time, approximately 300 hours of driving. I posted a sample ^ there, a full 20 seconds of vehicle operation, triggered by sudden hard acceleration during a dyno pull. I can post other samples if you wish.

[wsmylie]

I hope so, that's the protocol being hammered out here as we speak. But, as is will go sometimes, the issue gets clogged up with a dealership's need to access this data for service, and they can clearly use it for warranty claims, so, like your credit history, some say the data is not your property to begin with, and the Service Manager can share this record with anyone he chooses. Yep, us too, and we're also downloading after chases even without collisions. Guys are taking time over their top speed on city streets. Prolly...But if you want to borrow it sooner, Charlie, drop me a mailing addy at my e-mail. Once you try it, you'll prolly want your own. Interesting topic Mac/Charlie. Anybody here remember a somewhat crude electro-mechanical device from the 60's-70's called a "Tac-O-Graph" (not quite sure on the spelling)?? Installed in a radio car, basically did the same kinda function we're discussing. The device, mounted in the trunk, recorded vehicle idle time, speeds, activiation of emergency equipment etc on a disk that looked somewhat like an old 45 rpm record. PD brass made attempts to use the data to burn guys for speeding, loafing, unauthorized code 3's etc. The troops and the unions hated em; even "heard" stories of guys pouring coffee etc into the unit (:D) to thwart the higher ups. Anyway, the things didn't really hang-on for too long, maybe a couple years, and then just seemed to fade away. But now these built-in, electronic devices are a whole new ballgame on the labor front. On the squad unauthorized speeding topic, in the past the brass even tried burning guys by claiming to be able to extrapolate an accurate patrol vehicle speed during a chase by timing the periods between voice/location call outs on the radio as the pursuit progressed.:shake:

[DEFYANT]

The police agency's can do this because they own the car, not the user.

This is a great way to track the usage of your car, say after you get it back from the dealer, or when your kid comes home from a night on the town.

[vegasmarauder]

I have seen some of the data from these crash modules on Ford CV's that have been wrecked. Out of all the manufacturers, Ford collects the least amount of data. Some cars will tell you Speed, Brake on/off, Accell on/off, ABS on/off. The Ford system mostly records G force deceleration against time expended. From that the actual car is weighed, driver weight figured, and then a formula is used to compute speed. It takes out the road surface part of the old manual speed equations, and has less variation. It does tell you if the front seats were occupied, and if the seat belts were on/of. It tells if the seat belt pretensioner charge was fired before the air bag and wether the High/Lo air bag charge fired. The general feeling is that if this information is going to be used for prosecution purposes, a search warrant is needed. This does not apply to the dealer/service person because they don't have to follow the fourth amendment unless they are acting on behalf of the police (the police ask them to obtain the info for the police). What the service people do with the info after that is on them. Most professional police agencies will serve a warrant or administrative/Grand Jury subpoena on a private company to obtain information to avoid potential litigation.

Long story short, even without it, most law enforcement still have/had speed calculation tools without the information from the box.

[Dan]

Like it or not, it's there. Let's hope the lawmakers do the right thing when managing this with law.

I have been an activist for motorists issues for nearly 10 years. When it comes to lawmakers the word HOPE should never come out of our mouths.

What we, as motoring enthusiasts need to do, is ensure that our lawmakers do the right thing when it comes to these boxes.

Our doing so is the only way to balance out the governement agencies who are interested in more power and more control.

Best

Dan

[Dan]

PS: On rereading my above comment I felt that I should explain that I am not yelling at you, Mac. :)

[SergntMac]

PS: On rereading my above comment I felt that I should explain that I am not yelling at you, Mac. :) Didn't think you were, and I agree with you.

The problem with the US Government at large, is that it creates it's own obligation to protect the masses. Some citizens expect the government should take action, and others expect government to stay out of it. I have taken both sides at one time or another, depending on the topic. Not sure where I stand on this, yet.

I'm more concerned about Insurance companies demanding to read your data in a random test, and if you refuse, no policy.

[Vortech347]

Ok so where is this box on our cars. If I get in a wreck I'll know where to smash with a BFH, shoot at, or dump acid on.

I think its BS, we should't have leashes on our cars.

[MarauderMark]

This POS does not lower your insurance premiums whatsoever by having it it only gives these multi million dollar a year companys the right to charge more.
Also telling you before you buy the car you want that this has a POSbox in it doesn't mean anything .i mean if you want the car you have to take it with it in how about if you don't wan it in the car then you cannot buy the car or buy a car w/o that POSbox so thats stupid as well.in some ways this thing may be good but it feels like a violation to my privacy .i dont like it.:down:
Thank you for letting me vent .:D

[RCSignals]

I have seen some of the data from these crash modules on Ford CV's that have been wrecked. Out of all the manufacturers, Ford collects the least amount of data.

As I understand, GM collects the most. I've been told that for some years they (GM) have also had the capability of reading the data remotely.

[PJR]

We collect the data in traffic fatalities. We do obtain a warrant first. The
'device' in the car is read with this: http://www.vetronix.com/diagnostics/cdr/ (http://www.vetronix.com/diagnostics/cdr/)

[1stMerc]

How do you figure? If the 2003 and 2004 Ford Crown Victoria and Mercury Grand Marquis have data recorders, it stands to reason we do, too...

Your reasoning is sound. Since the CV and GM or listed as having it, and the Marauder is based off GM platform it follows it would as well.
Since our cars are limited edition runs they just weren't mentioned are Ford did not wish to go through the expense of installing one.

[1stMerc]

Please go back and read this again? The cover sheet explains that this is a list of vehicles that are compatable with their software. The list jumps from 1999 to 2006, that's a serious gap in time, with a lot of development in the science they may not have participated in.

The cover sheet also says that vehicles not listed have recorders that use other methods for collecting and reading data, looks like Ford products use a proprietary technology.

Rest assured our Marauder have recorders, I've read EECs from June of 2002, through the last run, catch code MAV2, with my Davis chip. I have also loaned it out to a surburban PD for an internal crash investigation, the officer was cleared. My friendly dealership has borrowed it to settle a warranty claim on an '04 Marauder. The block was windowed at cylinder 3 and 4, and it was a mess. The owner claimed to be cruising I-57, just minding his own business when the dash lit up all the lights. Mysetriously, the battery also came undone when the engine blew, however, that didn't matter. Seven bullet holes stiched down the driver's side and across the trunk were disturbing, and the dealership called me.

The gentleman's "cruise" down I-57, was over 112 miles per hour, apparently he was running for his life? The oil filter was found to be the production line filter, and there was over 8k miles on the car, without an oil change. Bullet holes aside, clearly owner abuse and this information was shared with a factory rep who came out to see the failed engine. Ford bought the engine, but the bullet holes were deemed "owner's responsibility." Go figure.

The data is there and removing a battery cable will not clear it. It's there until overwritten by time, approximately 300 hours of driving. I posted a sample ^ there, a full 20 seconds of vehicle operation, triggered by sudden hard acceleration during a dyno pull. I can post other samples if you wish.

Mac and QWK SVT
I neglected to take in the fact that since our cars are a "Limited Edition" run, they don't warrant mention in most of these kinds of data sheets.

My baddd

[1stMerc]

This POS does not lower your insurance premiums whatsoever by having it it only gives these multi million dollar a year companys the right to charge more.
Also telling you before you buy the car you want that this has a POSbox in it doesn't mean anything .i mean if you want the car you have to take it with it in how about if you don't wan it in the car then you cannot buy the car or buy a car w/o that POSbox so thats stupid as well.in some ways this thing may be good but it feels like a violation to my privacy .i dont like it.:down:
Thank you for letting me vent .:D

Most of us "general public" were not aware of these devices in our vehicles till it was made known via the media a couple of years ago. Now if you want the car you don't have a choice. This will is my second vehicle with one in some form or another, and for the most part it does not even cross my mind while driving. Just like dating or getting married, you have to take the good with the bad.

To quote one of Bill Cosby's comedy routines
"Those of you with or without children will understand".

[ctrlraven]

What tampering charges? He bought the car and all that came with it. He can do whatever he wants with his own personal property so long as he doesn't endanger anyone. its like the tag says on your mattress "Do Not Remove Me" lol. its all gravy as long as the law doesnt know :lol: