Can't find electrical drain

[John F. Russo]

Couldn't start car after not running it for weekend.

Facts
On Saturday I opened the car door and noticed the interior light was not as bright. The car was never started until Monday AM. On Monday I just heard clicking sound after I tried to start it. Even after the key was removed from the ignition, it continued to click continuously. It stopped only after I closed the car door. The interior lights radio etc. did not work.

I tried to jump start with another car and could not. I had the car towed to the dealer. I should have waited about five minutes then try to start it according to the dealer.

At my dealer (competent), all diagnostic testing indicated no problems. They let the care stand overnight at the dealer and no problem again. No parasitical electrical leakage was found. My dealer does not have an explanation.

Questions
1. Why did the clicking continue even after the key was removed and the car door was closed?
2. What caused the original battery drain?

You guys are the best. So who will come up with the answers?

[gpfarrell]

Is the battery itself in 100% good shape?

With so many sensors and electronic gizmos a weak battery could trigger lots of other misleading symptoms.

I'd disconnect the ground and put it on a slow charge for a few days... if it was only pushing 10 volts even priming the fuel pump could take longer than normal.

Best of luck!

Greg

[Mike Poore]

You guys are the best. So who will come up with the answers?

OK, John here's the answer.

You live in a cold climate and have had a spate of warm weather, then it got cold again. The battery terminals do weird stuff during changes like that, and all you have to do is clean and properly tighten them, and spray on some of the battery terminal goo from Ford ....problem solved.

I'll bet you can grab the POS. or NEG terminal, and jiggle it loose, unless the dealer has already tightened them.

What did I win?:D

[Tallboy]

Does your car have an aftermarket alarm/security system?

Any other aftermarket electronics?

[Bluerauder]

Here's one .... :laugh:

http://www.mercurymarauder.net/showcase/files/1/8/9/1/PolarExpress.jpg

[Petrograde]

Does your car have an aftermarket alarm/security system?

Any other aftermarket electronics?

I was gonna ask the same thing,... when my original battery died, it caused my car alarm to make strange noises,.. like 'click' and 'whir'

[John F. Russo]

Does your car have an aftermarket alarm/security system?

Any other aftermarket electronics?


I do not. But in the future I'll be getting a Lojack knowing that our car is high on the list of the most stolen cars.

______________________________ _____________________
2003 Dark Blue Pearl 300B (Canadian) w/Light Flint (reversed traction control, mini spare, trunked 6 disc CD changer, clock-in-the-radio, heated front seats/mirrors, hood light), Born 12/10/02; converted new then used 2/28/03
ENGINE: Kenny Brown: 6th “Signature Series” conversion (450 hp), Vortech supercharger (5 to 7 psig boost; pulley), 377 RWTQ, Dennis Reinhart Cobra engine cooling kit TRANSMISSION: Stock transmission upgraded with Performance Automatic "Super Streeter" transmission version, stub shaft (defective metal) failed at 30k miles; upgraded internals (except for torque converter) to Dennis Reinhart's design; Precision, triple disc, P/N469018-3, later upgraded to 3500 rpm stall speed); Ford Racing transmission aluminum pan SUSPENSION: Metco control arms (black powdered coated), coil from each front stock spring removed to produce the “same” effect as an Eibach spring DRIVETRAIN 4.10 gears, MMX Driveshaft, Ford Racing Stud and Girdle BRAKES:14 in. BaerClaw front, (two piston, slotted rotors), TIRES: Pirelli P-Zero Asimmetrico (front 255/45ZR18 99Y, rear 255/50ZR18 102Y), ACCESSORIES: Wheel locks (Ford), godshead valve stem caps, Dead pedal, Badgeless front grille by “Zack”; Zaino waxing; RainX; Autobhanded, FordChip, Ground clearance: 5 in.; 36,000 miles MISCELLANEOUS 18.5 mpg at a steady speed of 80 mph, one tank of gas
______________________________ ___________________________
1961 Ford Galaxie, 2 dr. Club Victoria, 390CID, 375hp, 4 barrel (gone)

[John F. Russo]

OK, John here's the answer.

You live in a cold climate and have had a spate of warm weather, then it got cold again. The battery terminals do weird stuff during changes like that, and all you have to do is clean and properly tighten them, and spray on some of the battery terminal goo from Ford ....problem solved.

I'll bet you can grab the POS. or NEG terminal, and jiggle it loose, unless the dealer has already tightened them.

What did I win?:D

You may win something yet. In any case, the terminals were not loose but the mechanic did tighten each one turn but did not put the terminal post liquid on. I wish he hadn't tightened the terminals connections because this weekend I intend to have the car in my garage unused to simulate the same set of conditions as I had last weekend when the car would not start-up on Monday morning.

P.S. How can I put this message and the previous message all together as one response?

[Rider90]

It must be the red blinking light on the dashboard! ;)

[Ozz]

My sister has the same problem with her Cougar. If she does not drive it for 5 days or so, it's dead. New alternator, new battery, no difference... same story from the dealership. They can't find the problem so she can't leave it at the airport, etc for any length of time. PITA! :mad:
She is ready to swear off Ford products. She may replace it with a Mazda or Volvo (she is A-Plan eligible).

[John F. Russo]

Here's one .... :laugh:

http://www.mercurymarauder.net/showcase/files/1/8/9/1/PolarExpress.jpg


I like your blue car. Just like mine.

It is interesting that you displayed a steam engine that I saw yesterday.
It was a hand built model about 10 inches high of an old Boston and Maine engine and tender. It was in a glass case in a local library. It was exquisitely detailed. I looked at it on the way in and I had to stop to see it again on the way out. It didn't say what gauge it was.

[Bluerauder]

Questions
1. Why did the clicking continue even after the key was removed and the car door was closed?
2. What caused the original battery drain?
Are you completely sure that your ignition was in the full off position. Sounds like it may be stopping short in the "accessory" position. That could account for the clicking and possibly the drain. :dunno: Just had a similar problem on my E150 van ... a worn ignition switch ... but the van was over 10 years old.


It is interesting that you displayed a steam engine that I saw yesterday. It was a hand built model about 10 inches high of an old Boston and Maine engine and tender.
At that size, it sounds like it was probably a "G-Gauge" train like the ones that they run in yards and outside garden displays. Or it could be a non-standard gauge from a private model maker.

I just happened to pick "The Polar Express" since my son-in-law just got one for Christmas. The old orange and blue Lionel boxes remind me of the train that I had as a kid. :D

[John F. Russo]

It must be the red blinking light on the dashboard! ;)


That's a thought. But I have had that blinking red light on for the past 50,000 miles (3 years). Is it possible that battery is weaker? Not according to the diagnostic battery testing.

[John F. Russo]

My sister has the same problem with her Cougar. If she does not drive it for 5 days or so, it's dead. New alternator, new battery, no difference... same story from the dealership. They can't find the problem so she can't leave it at the airport, etc for any length of time. PITA! :mad:
She is ready to swear off Ford products. She may replace it with a Mazda or Volvo (she is A-Plan eligible).


Wow! I'd leave the car at the dealer for five days and let them solve the problem. My problem may be the same. We'll see this weekend. I'll test the interior lights on Saturday to see if they're dimming. And Monday will be the real test!

[Ozz]

If you are comfortable troubleshooting it yourself you can always put an volt-meter (in DC Amp) mode in series between your battery and your battery cable. Note the draw on the battery. Start pulling fuses until the draw drops. This at least isolates what system has failed. Once you know the system, put the fuse back in and start unhooking things in that system until you find the draw... serious PITA.

A note about using your meter in DCA mode... I initially had to hook mine up in parallel with another electrical wire between the battery and cable. After the interior lights, etc dimmed, I removed the other wire. Otherwise, the fuse in my meter would blow up before it could take a reading. I used a cheapo 'Harbor Freight' meter though... :rolleyes:

[mrjones]

If you still can't find it, pull your underhood and trunk courtesy lights and see if the drain is still there. Sometimes those switches allow the lights to stay on even when the hood or trunk is closed.

[fastblackmerc]

My sister has the same problem with her Cougar. If she does not drive it for 5 days or so, it's dead. New alternator, new battery, no difference... same story from the dealership. They can't find the problem so she can't leave it at the airport, etc for any length of time. PITA! :mad:
She is ready to swear off Ford products. She may replace it with a Mazda or Volvo (she is A-Plan eligible).
Lemon-law???

[magindat]

If you are comfortable troubleshooting it yourself you can always put an volt-meter (in DC Amp) mode in series between your battery and your battery cable. Note the draw on the battery. Start pulling fuses until the draw drops. This at least isolates what system has failed. Once you know the system, put the fuse back in and start unhooking things in that system until you find the draw... serious PITA.

A note about using your meter in DCA mode... I initially had to hook mine up in parallel with another electrical wire between the battery and cable. After the interior lights, etc dimmed, I removed the other wire. Otherwise, the fuse in my meter would blow up before it could take a reading. I used a cheapo 'Harbor Freight' meter though... :rolleyes:

An inductive ammeter around the positive cable will serve the same purpose.

[vegasmarauder]

The Lighting Control Module will automatically turn off any light left on longer than 20 minutes, so I do not think it is a light left on. These later model cars really don't like anything other than a full 12V. It seems all the modules reference off this 12V signal, so anything less, makes them schizo.

I have found in older CV's, Panthers, Fords with high mileage, this type of problem is in the positive battery cable. As they get a few years on them corrosion builds up inside the rubber cover where you can't see it. The cable looks normal until you cut it open. It has become a large resistor. The dealer diagnostic should catch this if they know what they are doing.

I have changed the positive cable on a number of cars that seemed to repeatedly kill good batteries and alternators. That stopped the problem. See if anyone hacked into your positive cable to install some aftermarket item. If so and not properly sealed off, it's like letting a virus into that cable. I have bought a Lincoln Town Car from a tow auction with a "hard to start" condition that came back to life with a new cable.

Do not ever under any circumstances use those battery cable end replacement clamps. The are a ticking time bomb on any car. They increase the resistance at the clamp/cable junction and do nothing to address the built up corrosion inside the cable sheath. They will cause the alternator to work harder to charge the battery and eventually you will have a "no start" again. It is cheaper in the long run to replace the entire cable assembly with a factory unit.

Try and measure with a good digital voltmeter the voltage at the relay box. Any less than 12V usually indicates a bad cable.

Just my .2 worth...

[John F. Russo]

I repeated the same conditions as before i.e. not using the car over the weekend. On Monday there was no indication of any battery drain.

This is the worst kind of problem--non repetitive.

So I will take some of the previous advice on this thread and see what happens. I'll keep everyone posted.

Thank you all again for the help.

[John F. Russo]

Well, I bought a new 3 yr. warranted Ford battery from Ford since I didn't want to take a chance with winter coming with a faulty battery.

I left the dealer drove my car 20 miles at highway speeds and left it in the garage for two weeks without moving the car.

I went to drive it and it was stone dead. Not one light went on.

I had the supicion that this wasn't going to solve my problem because My last battery did not show a failure from the dagnostic tests my dealer performed. (This is a very good dealer that I have been with for more than 3 years.) The old battery would fail after my car remained idle for a few days, then later only two days.

My hunch was correct. Obviously there is a parasitic loss somewhere. My dealer will get the car Monday.

They had the car overnight and still couldn' find it. I wonder what they will do now?

How can they find it now?

[DEFYANT]

Do you have anything plugged into the cigarette lighter or power point inght console? I left some gizmos plugged in with the car parked for a long time once and returned to find a dead battery.

[John F. Russo]

Do you have anything plugged into the cigarette lighter or power point inght console? I left some gizmos plugged in with the car parked for a long time once and returned to find a dead battery.

I have none. Thank you for your thought.

[Tallboy]

John, if you can't find the drain, perhaps a battery tender would be of help?

I have one plugged into the Marauder at all times.

[shakes_26]

What electrical mods, stereo, etc, have you had done to the car?

Me, I'd connect an ammeter between the ground and the battery and see how much current is being drawn, then start yanking fuses until I found the guilty party.

In my experience, stereo and alarms are the primary culprits.

[John F. Russo]

John, if you can't find the drain, perhaps a battery tender would be of help?

I have one plugged into the Marauder at all times.

Did you have that much trouble?

[John F. Russo]

What electrical mods, stereo, etc, have you had done to the car?

Me, I'd connect an ammeter between the ground and the battery and see how much current is being drawn, then start yanking fuses until I found the guilty party.

In my experience, stereo and alarms are the primary culprits.

I have not done any of these mods since I bought the car new.

I'll make your suggestion to my dealer. Thank you for your suggestion.

[Tallboy]

Did you have that much trouble?


No-no trouble at all, here. My car is a toy that sits in the garage under a cover until I decide to use it. The Battery Tender just keeps the battery fully charged for me, as it can sit for a month at a time. It's just preventative maintenance on my part.

[John F. Russo]

No-no trouble at all, here. My car is a toy that sits in the garage under a cover until I decide to use it. The Battery Tender just keeps the battery fully charged for me, as it can sit for a month at a time. It's just preventative maintenance on my part.


Usually my car was running so often that it could not lose its charge. Now that I want to slow down its wear rate it has caused me the trouble.

I use much less gas this way!

[MM_BKK]

Well, I bought a new 3 yr. warranted Ford battery from Ford since I didn't want to take a chance with winter coming with a faulty battery.

I left the dealer drove my car 20 miles at highway speeds and left it in the garage for two weeks without moving the car.

I went to drive it and it was stone dead. Not one light went on.

I had the supicion that this wasn't going to solve my problem because My last battery did not show a failure from the dagnostic tests my dealer performed. (This is a very good dealer that I have been with for more than 3 years.) The old battery would fail after my car remained idle for a few days, then later only two days.

My hunch was correct. Obviously there is a parasitic loss somewhere. My dealer will get the car Monday.

They had the car overnight and still couldn' find it. I wonder what they will do now?

How can they find it now?

You may have to find another dealer to troubleshoot the electrical problem. It can be tricky for some technician, but if they understand electrical then this shouldn't be a big deal at all. I've parked my Marauder for over a month with no battery tender hooked up and did not experienced a dead battery. I 've fixed this type of problem for at least three of my friends car.
Like other member have said, need to hook up an in-line amp meter do find out the rate of current drain. The "clamp on" amp meter does not work (they only work on AC circuit and the MM electrical system is mostly DC) If the current drain is more than 100 miliamps, you definitely have a heavy drain and within 5 days the battery will be dead. If you have the high drain then start pulling fuses and watch for the drain to drop. You may have to disable the interior lights so they don't interfere with you test. Once you find the culprit fuse, look in the owners manual for the description of the circuit and try to narrow it down further. In my past troubleshooting, I've found the problems caused by defective radio, stuck light on in the glove box or hood or trunk.
Hope this will shed some light.

[jgc61sr2002]

John, if you can't find the drain, perhaps a battery tender would be of help?

I have one plugged into the Marauder at all times.



I have one also.:D

[MM_BKK]

An inductive ammeter around the positive cable will serve the same purpose.

The inductive ammeter only works on Alternating Current. Coming off the positive cable is Direct Current. :)

[John F. Russo]

The inductive ammeter only works on Alternating Current. Coming off the positive cable is Direct Current. :)

Thank you for the clarification.

[John F. Russo]

I too would came back twice from a two day trip back to a cold winter night only to find my car battery dead. This happened to my Crown Victoria that I use to have. I didn't pay attention to how they solved the problem.

This time I'm going to take notes.

I thank everyone who has made comments about my problem. I'm digesting them and consulting with my dealer about your ideas.

I'll report back about how they solve it. (I hope.)

[cyclopsram]

In any of these instances it would seem prudent to carry a battery jumper pack...the sister in the airport parking garage could use one and be gone in two minutes...secondly, just put a master switch on the battery feed and it will stop all drain... but your radio presets will be lost..among other little nuisance things..

[John F. Russo]

Well the facts are in.

My new Ford 3 yr. battery was found to be defective. The current battery drain is 0.5 amp (Ford spec is 0.8 max.). According to MM_BKK on 9/13 on this thread, he said that "any drain higher than 0.1 amps is a heavy drain." I have 5 times more than this!

I have had my car in the stable since I got it back and it will remain for two weeks to find out what will happen.

I'm still not convinced there isn't something else wrong because my three old battery always has checked okay according to my dealer's (very capable and been with them for three years) standard diagnostic tests.

I'm going to use my own ammeter to verify my dealer's 0.5 amp drain.

Any other suggestions other than a battery tender.

[MM_BKK]

If you check the drain yourself and it's the same as dealer's finding of .5 amps, in about 8-9 days even with a new battery your car will probably not start. (Let's say your battery has a reserve capacity of 130 amps, 80% of this is 104 amps. Divide this by .5 amps/hr = 208 hrs. 208 divide by 24hr = 8.6 days) Did they at least were able to narrow the current draw to a particular fuse? If not, it would be like looking for a needle in the hay stack. One important thing to remember when checking for drain is you must make sure the interior or under hood lights are not on otherwise it will interfere with your finding.
For ***** and giggles, I measured the drain on my car and it's drawing .12 amps or 120 ma.

[ahess77]

OEM designs typically allow only about 6 to 10 milliamps of key-off current draw. That's 0.006 Amps. This allows the car to sit for 6 weeks (boat shipping overseas) and still start under worst-case conditions (-40C). If your key-off current is at 0.500 amps, the battery isn't going to last long. The CCA rating on the battery is for short term enging cranking. It will last longer than the CCA rating implies if you are draining it slower. But at 0.5 amps it's still not going to last long.

[John F. Russo]

OEM designs typically allow only about 6 to 10 milliamps of key-off current draw. That's 0.006 Amps. This allows the car to sit for 6 weeks (boat shipping overseas) and still start under worst-case conditions (-40C). If your key-off current is at 0.500 amps, the battery isn't going to last long. The CCA rating on the battery is for short term enging cranking. It will last longer than the CCA rating implies if you are draining it slower. But at 0.5 amps it's still not going to last long.

ahess77
Are you saying that I should ask another dealer about the 0.8 amps draw since it is much too high?

I just checked the draw tonight and it was 0.4 amps. I now have had the car in my grarage for 8 days without running it. The overhead lights do not shine as brightly. I'm driving it tomorrow.

MM_BKK
I intend to do what you suggested about taking each fuse out one at a time until the 0.4 amps drops substantially. Thank you for the trouble shooting suggestions.

[ahess77]

One question, how are you measuring the current draw? What is the capability of the meter you're using, does it measure +/- 0.1A as the minimum resolution? If so, your measurement isn't accurate enough.

You need to have an ammeter (multimeter) in series with the battery. Of course the problem is that when the battery is initially connected there is an inrush current and that pops the fuse on most multimeters. One way to do this is to pull all the vehicle fuses & relays, put the multimeter in series with the battery (10A setting on a Fluke), and then insert the fuses/relays one at a time. This will be time consuming because when you repower a computer module it's going to need 20 minutes to an hour to go into sleep mode where it's drawing the key-off current. Otherwise you're not measuring the key-off load.

One thing I'm always dissapointed with is the shop manual write-up of electrical diagnostics because they're not written by the electrical archtecture people, especially since portions of that may be outsourced to a Tier 1 supplier instead of Ford.