I'm thinking of getting a torque convertor....

[StevenJ]

This subject is about torque convertors and all the ones available that we can use on our car. Now before everyone starts screaming for the Stallion, let's go through all the options. I found three suitable convertors through Summit Racing so I just wanted to know what everyone's opinion was on them. All the ones listed below have a stall rating of 3000.

http://static.summitracing.com/global/images/prod/large/bmm-20400.jpg
http://store.summitracing.com/default.asp?target=partdetail. asp&autofilter=1&part=BMM%2D50403&N=115+4294925134+4294865449+42 94908331+4294865436+4294904002 +4294865432&autoview=sku
This one I am inparticuarly interested in. I've heard some very good things about B&M products and it is the least expensive out of any 3000 rpm stall torque convertor I have seen.


The next two I've never heard of before. Anyone know anyone who's used either brand before?

TCI Automotive
http://store.summitracing.com/default.asp?target=partdetail. asp&autofilter=1&part=TCI%2D433600&N=115+4294925134+4294865449+42 94908331+4294865436+4294904002 +4294865432&autoview=sku

http://static.summitracing.com/global/images/prod/large/hup-43-30_w.jpg
Hughes Performance

http://store.summitracing.com/default.asp?target=partdetail. asp&autofilter=1&part=HUP%2D53%2D30L&N=115+4294925134+4294865449+42 94908331+4294865436+4294904002 +4294865432&autoview=sku

Lastly, the Stallion Torque convertor...

http://reinhartautomotive.com/Merchant2/graphics/00000001/Stallion%20Torque%20Converter. jpg

http://reinhartautomotive.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=12345&Product_Code=MM-PISC&Category_Code=9

I've heard everything there is about the Stallion. Anyone know anything about the other three mentioned?

[Cobra25]

I Vote for the Purple One! :drool: :drool: :drool: :2thumbs:

[StevenJ]

Z, I know you got the Stallion. I know I brought up getting the B&M with you before. I'm curious about these other three. Having a choice is a good thing. It doesn't always have to be the Stallion.

[Cobra25]

:hmmm: I Vote For The Purple One Again ! :drool: :drool: :drool: :2thumbs:

[ghost03]

I vote for the purple one:drool: :bows: as well:o ...The black one looks like a tire from a remote control car. The red one looks like one of those medical doughnuts people sit on for their hemroids. The purple one is the peeeertiest. Just my 2 cents:lol:

[Cobra25]

After Reading Ghost03's post I must say this, I still Vote For the Purple One.:drool: :drool: :drool: :2thumbs:

[ghost03]

I dont know about you but I think that this thread just got :hijack: :hijack: :hijack: ....Those dam pirates, They are everywhere:hijack: :hijack: .

[Cobra25]

I agree with ghost03 ! :hijack: :hijack: :hijack: :hijack: :hijack: :hijack:

[StevenJ]

You guys are awful! I don't mind the jokes but I was hoping for a long drawn out technical thread. I'll give it another day before 'intelligent' people start responding j/k :flamer:!

[Cobra25]

We Still Like the Purple One ! That's My Vote ! :neener:

[TooManyFords]

Not to take anything away from the Stallion as I have one too, but in my '79 F150 I run a TCI on the C6 and it works great. TCI has probably just as good, if not better, reputation in the racing industry.

B&M, I think they make good shifters, but cannot comment on their converters never having used one. I did try one of their shift kits in a C4 once, and it blew up the tranny. (yes, I followed the directions)

If money matters I'd go with the TCI, otherwise the Stallion.

John

[BruteForce]

The pink one is nice. :lol:

I can't offer any technical expertise as I followed in the foot steps of those who know more about this than I do and they recommended the PI Stallion. All I know is that is makes you go faster. :D

[Joe Walsh]

How 'bout an ART CARR TC??

[StevenJ]

How 'bout an ART CARR TC??

I've heard some mixed things about ART Carr which makes me shy away from them. Something about not really being built by ART Carr but that they are really built by a different company using their name under license. I don't know, I think I asked about some of their products on CV.net a year ago and I didn't get a good response about them.

[Dragcity]

I ran a BDR way back when. Likely not around any more. 3000 stall behind 500 HP in a C-6, driving a 3.25:1 - 9" rear end. Had 32" X 10" Micky Thompson Tubed Drag Slicks. Still had to watch out. I could smoke half way to eternity if I wasn't careful. Had a cut, balanced & reinforced driveshaft.

I have always seen B&M as a lower end street application for the most part. Do a little research on the producer and see what their mission is. If it's geared toward supporting the racing community, your in good hands.

On another note, how much stall do we really need? I am stock and if I torque up just a little, There is no way I'll hook up. It's always a good idea to get close to our power band at launch, but if you can't keep the back end down, what's the sense. Unless of course you just like to light it up.

I have read here about a lot of folks having to take it easy at launch to keep from going up in smoke. Are you going to the extent of:

1) Wider tires/wheels
2) Sticky Mickys (slicks)
3) Some sort of weight transfer (traction bars) which I read is hard on Marauders.
4) Bolstered drive shaft?
5) Transmision bracing.

Just some of my thoughts, may not be technical, but considerations non-the-less...

High stall converters are great when you need them, but do you really need it? What do we stall at now? 1800?

Someone please feel free to tell me if I'm off my rocker, not that I'm actually IN a rocker.....So I guess I am off it then ! Hmmmmm...

[StevenJ]

The stock stall speed is 2500. I'm basically thinking of it this way, risk getting gears and ending up with drive shaft issues or spend a few hundred more and get a torque convertor which will yield higher performance and I don't have to worry about the stock driveshaft or rear end problems. I probably will keep my car N/A and see track on a monthly basis. About once every two months. The most I hope for my car to see is mid 13s after the convertor and possibly exhaust. I have heard that B&M isn't as good for racing as other brands. Right now I'm leaning towards the TCI convertor. It seems to be good, or at least TooManyFords has had good luck with them, and it's NOT a Stallion like everyone else has. I want something a bit different.


*edit, I also found another company that makes/ deals with convertors though this one is different.

http://www.circledspecialties.com/index.htm

They do not SELL new convertors. They take your old stock convertor and upgrade it. This seems interesting and it is much cheaper than buying a whole new convertor. I'll have to see about this one I do not know.

http://www.circledspecialties.com/Performanceproducts.html

This page lists the prices for the upgrades. There are multiple stages of upgrades and the prices vary from $249.99 to $499.99.

I heard about them through the Modular Depot boards. I was reading this thread and they happened to mention it....
http://forums.modulardepot.com/showthread.php?threadid=74423&highlight=Torque+convertors

Also, mentioned in the thread is someone who goes by the name "Dirtyd0g" on TOCCA boards who rebuilds convertors as well. He is supposively the best. Anyone know anything about this?

[Dragcity]

Do you really think the extra 500 r's is going to help? Have you launched at full stall on the stock verter? Seems to me we have more than enough for a relatively stock engine and drivetrain. It's just my opinion and limited experience.

Changing out the converter is a bit of work and a good chunk of dough for increasing the inefficency of our rear ends for hook-up.

I feel like I may be missing something here, or missunderstanding something.

At launch, if you get any more that three or four revolutions of the rear wheels, you are sacrificing a good ET. We used to put a fat stipe down the sidewall of the rear tire with white shoe polish to see the slippage.

You know your car best, and it sounds like you have just about made up your mind.

Whatever you do, have fun and stay safe...

[StevenJ]

If you mean have I ever flogged it from a stand still yeah I have. I have heard that even on stock cars, higher stall convertors can work wonders on dropping et.s even more so than switching to gears will. Of course, before I get it installed I will purchase a new tune from Lidio for $50, I believe that's the cost, for the new tune for the convertor. I'm still not sure which route I will go as to getting an aftermarket convertor or getting the stock one rebuilt. I believe the cost for the labor of replacing the convertor is anywhere from $250 to $400. It's about the same as switching the pinion gears. I'm aware that higher stall convertors can fry tires easily. Even still, the higher stall should help the car get moving quiet a bit faster. It's not like they'll fry at the slightest touch of throttle. You can still drive it normal without chirping the tires in stop and go traffic. I know people who have convertors, my neighbor Cobra has one. He doesn't have widen rims and he has a superchager. He's using KDW2s though. I'm using stock KDWs but I'm also using stock gears so traction shouldn't be as much of an issue for me.

[Dragcity]

Have you ever loaded up the converter (done a brake torque) ? Hell, I tromp on mine almost every red light. I can't ever really load up and launch. I'll go up in smoke and go nowhere.

I remember the first time I launched it, I didn't go anywhere fast. I saw a bunch of smoke in my rear-veiw and though only one wheel was spinning. Man was I pissed, thought I had a bum rear end. I went back to that spot in the morning light and saw the two black stripes across the intersection. That was the last time I really loaded up and launched. Had a couple mild street races and knew I couldn't torque up too much.

Signing off for the evening..

[StevenJ]

Okay, now I know what you are getting at and the answer is yes I have. I usually hold it around 1,500 rpm when I'm at the strip. I'm aware that my launch techniques will have to change when I switch convertors. I won't be able to aply full throttle at launch, which is fine. I'll just have to adjust to the convertor.

[HwyCruiser]

What is the rated torque multiplication between the different brands?

[JACook]

OK, I won't comment about the purple one, 'cause I don't have one, other than to say they have an excellent
reputation amongst list members that have them in their MMs.

I do have a TCI, and the converter itself seems to work fine, but the attaching hardware they included was
complete junk. Rather than welded studs like the factory converter, they used threaded holes, and Allen-head
set screws as studs. And non-locking nuts. So, I've just finished rebuilding my C4, and get it back in the car with
this new TCI converter. Road test time. Not more'n a mile from my house, and the "studs" worked loose, and a
couple of 'em sheared when they hit the rear of the block. (I had used red Loctite, and religiously use torque
wrenches on stuff like this.) TCI tech line was no help. Cost me $75.00 to have the hardened "studs" electro-
burned outta the holes. And, of course, a few more hours of my time to R&R the trans I had just installed. I also
had to come up with my own hardware solution. So, let's just say I'm not exactly one of TCI's best references.

When I built the AOD/4R70W hybrid box for my '93 LX, I went with the B&M. Without having cut either one of
'em open, I can't speak to any internal build quality differences, but from what I could see, and from the B&M's
tighter end-play measurements, I can say I'm more favorably impressed with the B&M's quality.

But I still wouldn't try to use the one in the photo you posted. That's a Chevy converter... :burnout:

[MarauderMarc]

Well in my opinion, you will get what you pay for. You seem to favor going the cheaper route. Its your baby, though, do what you want to her. Well just have to test the results at the track when I get my Stallion put in. By the way, you made a comment about not having what everybody else has. Its not a trend thing or a fad thing, but merely buying something with proven results. Every mod on my car is based on reading up on them and seeing the actual #s posted on here. If you could get the same performance and quality from a TCI or any other of those listed, dont you think there would be alot of talk on here about them? And the gears wont ruin your driveshaft. None of us would have them on if gears did that. Thats my .02


Okay okay, THE PURPLE ONE, THE PURPLE ONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!



BTW, ghost, that hemmoroid comment was funny as *****

[Glenn]

Without doubt the purple PI one. It cut a good 1/2 second off my e.t.

Glenn

[Cobra25]

All joking around aside, You have to pick which one is best for you and what you can afford. It may be true that the Stallion is the one most used here but it does cost more. The first Stallion TQ I had installed at carfixers shop went bad on the way home the same day. The people at Stallion give me a hard time exchanging it. Dennis Reinhart stepped in and cleared up the problem and another one was on the way. It cost me another $250 to have the next one installed and I didn't get a penny from Stallion . So as far as I'm concerned even though they have a good product I lost me respect for them. The second one is doing great . Every one else here as far as I know hasn't had any problems with them. Some of the other's TQ's may cost a little less which is good and they do the same thing but the quality may be different. Even though I like mine ( The Purple One) , and a few of us may joke with you a little for fun but you did start a good thread and it may help other's in the future think of the difference's in TQ's and the cost, and That's a good thing for all.

[StevenJ]

OK, I won't comment about the purple one, 'cause I don't have one, other than to say they have an excellent
reputation amongst list members that have them in their MMs.

I do have a TCI, and the converter itself seems to work fine, but the attaching hardware they included was
complete junk. Rather than welded studs like the factory converter, they used threaded holes, and Allen-head
set screws as studs. And non-locking nuts. So, I've just finished rebuilding my C4, and get it back in the car with
this new TCI converter. Road test time. Not more'n a mile from my house, and the "studs" worked loose, and a
couple of 'em sheared when they hit the rear of the block. (I had used red Loctite, and religiously use torque
wrenches on stuff like this.) TCI tech line was no help. Cost me $75.00 to have the hardened "studs" electro-
burned outta the holes. And, of course, a few more hours of my time to R&R the trans I had just installed. I also
had to come up with my own hardware solution. So, let's just say I'm not exactly one of TCI's best references.

When I built the AOD/4R70W hybrid box for my '93 LX, I went with the B&M. Without having cut either one of
'em open, I can't speak to any internal build quality differences, but from what I could see, and from the B&M's
tighter end-play measurements, I can say I'm more favorably impressed with the B&M's quality.

But I still wouldn't try to use the one in the photo you posted. That's a Chevy converter... :burnout:
The picture may be of the Chevy one but it's for the AODE/ 4R70W in the link. It's probably just a generic picture. Anyone have any another experiences at all?

http://www.tciauto.com/converters/index.htm
Here's a link to TCI's page with all their convertors. The Converter that I'm interested in is the Super Street one. It's listed as compatible with the AODE/ 4R70W. It has a stall range of 3000-3400.

http://www.bmracing.com/index.php?id=products&sid=4&cat=5&subcat=6&pid=49
This is the page for the HoleShot convertor that I'm also interested in. Again, not too much information other than it's balanced and it is a lock up type convertor. I guess I will have to call them for more specific information.


Well in my opinion, you will get what you pay for. You seem to favor going the cheaper route. Its your baby, though, do what you want to her. Well just have to test the results at the track when I get my Stallion put in. By the way, you made a comment about not having what everybody else has. Its not a trend thing or a fad thing, but merely buying something with proven results. Every mod on my car is based on reading up on them and seeing the actual #s posted on here. If you could get the same performance and quality from a TCI or any other of those listed, dont you think there would be alot of talk on here about them? And the gears wont ruin your driveshaft. None of us would have them on if gears did that. Thats my .02


It's not like B&M and TCI are no name brands. B&M inparticularly is famous for building a variety of transmission and torque convertor applicances. While it is rare, I have read some members on here say they expierenced driveshaft vibaration when they switched gears at speeds of 90mph and above. This bothers me because I do quiet a bit of highway driving and the last thing I want to have to do is go to a shop to have my shaft rebalanced if it ends up needing to be done or having to spend another $500 on a MMX driveshaft. Convertors will drop ets even more than gears for just a little more.

[MarauderMarc]

The picture may be of the Chevy one but it's for the AODE/ 4R70W in the link. It's probably just a generic picture. Anyone have any another experiences at all?

http://www.tciauto.com/converters/index.htm
Here's a link to TCI's page with all their convertors. The Converter that I'm interested in is the Super Street one. It's listed as compatible with the AODE/ 4R70W. It has a stall range of 3000-3400.

http://www.bmracing.com/index.php?id=products&sid=4&cat=5&subcat=6&pid=49
This is the page for the HoleShot convertor that I'm also interested in. Again, not too much information other than it's balanced and it is a lock up type convertor. I guess I will have to call them for more specific information.



It's not like B&M and TCI are no name brands. B&M inparticularly is famous for building a variety of transmission and torque convertor applicances. While it is rare, I have read some members on here say they expierenced driveshaft vibaration when they switched gears at speeds of 90mph and above. This bothers me because I do quiet a bit of highway driving and the last thing I want to have to do is go to a shop to have my shaft rebalanced if it ends up needing to be done or having to spend another $500 on a MMX driveshaft. Convertors will drop ets even more than gears for just a little more.

Im not saying they are "no name" brands. This is the way I see it: Every last thing that has come out for the Marauder has been evaluated by someone on here. All the ebay stuff as well. Dont you think that the other TCs would have been mentioned by now? B&M is a well known brand, but it isnt high quality IMO. Like I said, get what you want, and well test the results side by side....

[StevenJ]

I wouldn't necessarily say that. No one may have thought of trying some of these other brands before for whatever reason. They aren't necessairly worse or better than the Stallion unit just because they are different. I'm probably better off posting this topic on the TCCoA board, which I may just do. Our community is more limited in our knowledge than some other Ford forum communities due to the limited market for our car. So people only try one or two items and then they post it here and everyone else gets only the same items. I'm just trying to see if maybe there is a better brand convertor than the Stallion PI unit.

http://forums.tccoa.com/showthread.php?t=47149&highlight=Hight+stall+Torque+C onvertors

I happened to find this post. It's a break down of what our stock convertor looks like. Just thought it was interesting.

http://www.edgeracingconverters.com/

I also saw this company mentioned on TCCoA. A few of the members there have used them and they recromend their product. The only thing is, is that it's listed for a 9.5 inch convertor and ours is 11 1/4th. I'll have to keep looking.

[MarauderMarc]

Our community is more limited in our knowledge than some other Ford forum communities

Youd be surprised on how much our community really knows.

[StevenJ]

Youd be surprised on how much our community really knows.

I know there are lots of technically minded people here that are really knowledgable. My point is that there are more so people at on other boards, like TCCoA, for example because their communities revolve around similar Ford cars that have been around a lot longer, therefore there is a greater knowledge base to work with.

[BruteForce]

FYI the Dirtyd0g character over on TCCoA board was banned from this site. Don't remember the exact details but it was related to his discussion of his converter mod.

[StevenJ]

Hm, I'll make sure not get from him them, thanks for the heads up. Anyone else have any ideas?

[JohnE]

Modular Depot thread on single disk concverters (http://forums.modulardepot.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=77636&perpage=20&pagenumber=7)

I am running a CircleD Specialties (http://www.circledspecialties.com/) 9" billet single disk converter. It is performing very well for me and the service is outstanding. I highly recommend this shop. Chris will custom build for your needs. The PI industries converter is good, but the clutch(es) are not the best. The shop is here in Houston and I've been allow to see the facility. They only builds converters, that is their business.



John

[StevenJ]

Allright, I'll think about it JohnE, thanks. BTW, how long does it take them to rebuild and then ship the convertor? I don't want to be with a car that I can't drive for a month! Will they sell new convertors? What should I do? Drive my car to a shop, let them take out the convertor, and leave the car there for a week while they rebuild it?

[JohnE]

I had my original 9" converter that I bought from them over a year ago restalled just after Christmas. I pulled the tranmission, toook it to CircleD and reinstalled my tranmission all in the same day. Granted it was a rather long day. So, I'd say they can do a fairly fast turn-around.

The one I have is not a factory converter that is rebuilt. They can rebuild any manufacturer's converter, as well as PI stallions. I have a friend who had them upgrade the clutches in a PI converter to high carbon material.

I have no stake in this company, simply passing along personal experience.


John

[Cobra25]

Steven If you need a Factory Torque Convertor to ship out to have them build you a new one, I have my Old Factory one I took out when I replaced my TQ. All I ask is when you take out the one in your car to replace it give me your's as a exchange. This way your car won't be down at all. I hope that help's.

[StevenJ]

Steven If you need a Factory Torque Convertor to ship out to have them build you a new one, I have my Old Factory one I took out when I replaced my TQ. All I ask is when you take out the one in your car to replace it give me your's as a exchange. This way your car won't be down at all. I hope that help's.

You'd seriously do that? No way! Well here's the deal. Now that I've read a number of tech articles on torque convertors I have determined that I want one with a 9 inch diameter vrs. ones that have the stock 11.4. So this means that I'm now looking at the PI convertor or a rebuilt factory convertor from Circle with the same specs as the PI with the better clutches. Oh yes Cobra, is your Stallion PI a single plate or the triple plate version? Yes, it does make a difference. I probably won't need a triple plate but I'd imagine that you probably would considering yours makes a significant amount of power. I don't plan on installing a s/c on my car so a single plate should be fine.

*edit, I'm not sure if the prices listed on there websites are for 'new' convertors or the price to have yours rebuilt. I sent them an email regarding this so Cobra, I may not need your convertor. I'm not sure yet.

[Cobra25]

You'd seriously do that? No way! Well here's the deal. Now that I've read a number of tech articles on torque convertors I have determined that I want one with a 9 inch diameter vrs. ones that have the stock 11.4. So this means that I'm now looking at the PI convertor or a rebuilt factory convertor from Circle with the same specs as the PI with the better clutches. Oh yes Cobra, is your Stallion PI a single plate or the triple plate version? Yes, it does make a difference. I probably won't need a triple plate but I'd imagine that you probably would considering yours makes a significant amount of power. I don't plan on installing a s/c on my car so a single plate should be fine. I wouldn't make the offer if I wasn't willing to do it. Your my neighbor and a member of our group , I've helped you in the past and will in the future if you need help.

[StevenJ]

I appreciate it, thanks. Um, this isn't going to be done for atleast two months or so. I'm just trying to get the information ahead of time.

[cyclone03]

Ok I've only got 30,000 miles on my PI 3000 rpm converter and I've had no problems with the clutch at all.

The trick to making it live long I'm sure is in the lock up schedule in the tune.

I would not run this converter for long with a stock tune.The stock tune "locks" the converter from 25%-100%,of course less than 100% would be unlocked and slipping.

With the higher stall you'll want it to be locked a little more than the stocker anyway because an unlocked converter in OD makes a lot of RPM but little go.Dropping to 3rd gives more go than staying in OD,at least to me.

I don't think the so called weak lock up clutch in the PI is a problem with a N/A Marauder with our "normal" go fast mods. I have KOOKS,Pulleys and a tune and make 296hp to the wheels, lock the converter at 45 in 3rd and OD and have run 14.12 with stock gears.I also get 25-26mpg on the highway at 70-75mph.So the PI works well for me.

[StevenJ]

-delete Post-

[StevenJ]

Thanks, especially considering you basically have the same mods as me. Yeah I'm aware you need a tune to make the PI work. Now if it were a 3000 stall convertor with a 11.4 inch plate, it wouldn't matter but the stallion does because it has smaller plate. Since I have a Lidio tune anyway and Lidio is very familar with the PI convertor, it won't be a problem. I'll ask him for a new tune. You guys have convinced me. I'll just save pennies and get a PI convertor. I'm kinda disapointed Cyclone. You have a full kooks system with a PI convertor and only run 14.12? Should hit 13.88 atleast. Hell, I thought with a convertor alone I could break 13.99! Well okay, not that low but maybe 14.2! I'm going to need to get a set of KDW2s to go along with the new convertor eventually.

[cyclone03]

As they say YMMV.

I ran that on a 85+f day,no real cooling just stab and go.
I stalled it to 2000rpm then let 'er rip.
I'm sure theres more in it.

I've noticed that rear tires take a beating,for me at least, they spin at will from a stop on up to about 30mph:) .

[StevenJ]

As they say YMMV.

I ran that on a 85+f day,no real cooling just stab and go.
I stalled it to 2000rpm then let 'er rip.
I'm sure theres more in it.

I've noticed that rear tires take a beating,for me at least, they spin at will from a stop on up to about 30mph:) .
Oh yeah, on a cold day you'd definietely hit 13s. You're supposed to brake torque it while staging. Then launch. Not just hit it from a stand still like at a street light.

[Zack]

3000's suck, go 3500

[MarauderMarc]

3000's suck, go 3500

Why is that???

[StevenJ]

Why is that???

Probably because he has a set of radials and his car can deal with the higher rpm launches to get it moving faster. I wouldn't get it though because it makes stop and go city traffic very difficult. If you really want, you can send your convertor back to PI and have them update it to 3500 rpm stall.