Twin Turbos

[natedog1284]

Hello all, this is Nate, and I was just looking for some feedback on an idea. I went by my local speed shop today, (I won't post the name till I'm sure its ok!) because I wanted to ask him about his reccomendation as far as what I should do for forced induction. Eventually we got to talking about turbos, (I know, I know, I don't want to offend any Trilogy guys, I love that kit too, but hear me out ;) ). Anyway, he asked if I would be willing to let him use my car as a test car in developing a twin turbo kit for Marauders, as this would pretty much give him the only business around as far as a multiple turbo set-up for our cars. He asked me if I could get him some numbers of people that might be interested in a kit like this. I would *LOVE* to have a setup like this on my car personally; he told me that boost lag isn't a problem with the proper setup and tuning, and turbos are much more efficient. I know this guy's work, and everything he does is always top notch, with great fit and finish, so quality would certainly not be an issue. So anyone interested just reply. Thanks for hearing me out guys!

[O's Fan Rich]

That's a very interesting idea.
Proceed , please.
You could always have the shop chime in and check up on what it takes to achieve vendor status here.

[2003CTMarauder]

I'm For It:banana2:

[blackf0rk]

he told me that boost lag isn't a problem with the proper setup and tuning

Not that this statement throws off anything else you say about him, but it depends on what he means by it. If he means "not a problem" to mean virtually no lag then he's lying; else if he means "not a problem" to actually mean a real "problem" then he's correct. :) ALL turbo vehicles have turbo lag.

You will have more turbo lag with a twin turbo charger setup than with only one. Remember, turbos run off the exhuast; the exhaust is what spins the compressor side. With a single turbo, all of your exhaust is working on one turbo. With two turbos, half of your exahust is working on each = turbo lag.

Turbo's also need a lot of tuning and care; not to mention of buttload of hardware. Trust me when I say this necause I was a guinee-pig for a turbo (single) too.

I'm not against turbo's for MM's or for any car. But just make sure you know what you're getting into, and don't let anyone tell you it'll be a peice of cake.

I do hope that if you decide to go forward with this, that it turns out ok and that it can represent the MM community in a great way. Just think, a top-notch and purrrring Twin Turbo MM - sweet! Best wishes!

:beer:

[TooManyFords]

You will have more turbo lag with a twin turbo charger setup than with only one. Remember, turbos run off the exhuast; the exhaust is what spins the compressor side. With a single turbo, all of your exhaust is working on one turbo. With two turbos, half of your exahust is working on each = turbo lag.

I'm not sure you can say this without knowing exactly which particular turbo(s) are being used in such a kit. Typically when running duals, each turbo is approximately half as big as one single unit when trying to generate the same HP levels. With that said, it generally is easier to spool up two smaller units than one big one, thus being able to use the broad term, "virtually no lag".

Regardless, I too would love to see a twin turbo unit hit the streets! I have a special place for those that walk to the beat of a different *cough*6-71*cough* drummer...

Keep us posted, Nate!

John

[bobbyc]

I drove an Audi RS6, a factory built twin turbo V8 with about 500 HP. Without any noticable lag. I think the engine is a 4.2, I could check, but the point is, it's doable. With our 4.6 it would be a real sweet package...

[BAD MERC]

You couldn't GIVE me a turbo. PERIOD! They are sluggish and incinerate the oil if you don't have a TURBO-TIMER. Leave the turbos for the Honda owners with their anemic 4 bangers. The Marauder craves the "Thrillogy" blower for the maximum amount of raised hair. I will HAPPILY spend the 6 large for the compressor when the funds are available.

[Joe Walsh]

^^^^This would be my dream forced induction set-up....two smaller turbos mounted low and close to the exhaust ports,
dump pipes that are routed where the OEM exhaust pipes ran, and a big 'split' intercooler with two inlets and one big outlet.
I would use custom brackets to set back the OEM radiator, allowing easy placement of the big intercooler as well as direct intercooler piping (few, if any 90s and bends)
However, I fear that packaging all this around the wide a$$ DOHC heads and the myriad of radiator hoses will prove to be VERY difficult.
I'll watch this thread to see if it looks feasible.:up:

[Joe Walsh]

You couldn't GIVE me a turbo. PERIOD! They are sluggish and incinerate the oil if you don't have a TURBO-TIMER. Leave the turbos for the Honda owners with their anemic 4 bangers. The Marauder craves the "Thrillogy" blower for the maximum amount of raised hair. I will HAPPILY spend the 6 large for the compressor when the funds are available.

You haven't driven a well designed and well maintained Turbo car.
They are a BLAST!
I'm working on an 'anemic' 2.5 OHV Ford 4 banger that will put down 400+ RWHP.
A turbo would be my first choice for forced induction on a street car.
BTW: Almost all modern turbos have oil AND water cooled bearings.
Mobil 1 has to get REALLY HOT to cook.

[Todd]

You couldn't GIVE me a turbo. PERIOD! They are sluggish and incinerate the oil if you don't have a TURBO-TIMER. Leave the turbos for the Honda owners with their anemic 4 bangers. The Marauder craves the "Thrillogy" blower for the maximum amount of raised hair. I will HAPPILY spend the 6 large for the compressor when the funds are available.


Unfortunately you have absolutely NO idea what you are talking about.....


Coking the oil is not a problem unless youa re pushing the motor very hard and turn the car off without any 'normal' driving in between. Even if I am driving my car very hard I drive normal while driving back through my neighborhood. By the time I reach my house the oil temps are fine. And you can turn the car right off.

So unless you race down your street you will be fine.

And as far as sluggish, again, you have no idea. You have to properly size the turbo(s) for the car. If you do there will be almost no lag at all. You WILL have some boost before your eyes can go from the road ahead of you to the boost gauge. Ask me how I know!!!!!!!!!! I have a PROPERLY sized turbo on my car.

People really need to think before posting.....

[sfsv]

As someone who has done a great deal of research with engine modifications and the return on investment (performance per dollar spent). You must first know your goals with your vehicle. A properly engineered twin-turbo kit for MM would be the ultimate set-up for maxium torque and horsepower, but you would need a 03-04 Mustang Cobra short block to realize the twin-turbo potential of 700 whp. If you are looking for that type of power be ready to spend from 15k-25k into a MM, because you have to upgrade the complete drivetrain, brakes, and suspension to safely handle this type of power. As most supercharged MM owners will tell you that 350-450 rwhp MM are a lot of fun without a lot of headaches. I would like to see Trilogy offer a racing/offroad upgrade to replace the Eaton blower with a twin screw design Whipple/Kenne Bell more efficient supercharger in their kit , but you would need to replace the short block with a 03-04 Cobra short block or have a short block built. In theory this set-up could put 450-650 whp to rear wheels base upon boost and tuning. It is great to see the open mindness in the MM community, when you see the modifications/enhancements that are being done. I know for a fact that MM has a limited market and I know that no one is going to get rich catering to such a small market. But on the flip side, I am impressed with Trilogy selling over 100 kits in about two years.

[grampaws]

Definitely interested in any turbo kits-
I'm in...

[mpearce]

I thought the whole point of a twin turo set up in the first place, is a reduction in turbo lag. Am I wrong on this?

-Mat

[Joe Walsh]

I'm not sure if there is any difference either way...
Twin Turbo = Each smaller, lighter turbo is driven by 1/2 the exhaust energy.
It does allow easier placement of the smaller turbos, usually they can be put very close to the exhaust manifolds.

[Warpath]

If I had the cash, twin turbos would be in my Cobra in < a heart beat. You can't beat their broad, flat torque curve and high efficiency. Rule of thumb I heard is that superchargers take 50-100hp to turn whereas turbos are 10 hp or less. Plus, you get to use all that exhaust energy.

Some single turbos run off only one bank of exhaust. Therefore, its one large turbo driven off 1/2 the exhaust energy. I can see such a set up having boost lag. Current impeller/turbine design minimizes lag. Besides, lag (if it exists) is a small price to pay.

[Tallboy]

Hello all, this is Nate, and I was just looking for some feedback on an idea. I went by my local speed shop today, (I won't post the name till I'm sure its ok!) because I wanted to ask him about his reccomendation as far as what I should do for forced induction. Eventually we got to talking about turbos, (I know, I know, I don't want to offend any Trilogy guys, I love that kit too, but hear me out ;) ). Anyway, he asked if I would be willing to let him use my car as a test car in developing a twin turbo kit for Marauders, as this would pretty much give him the only business around as far as a multiple turbo set-up for our cars. He asked me if I could get him some numbers of people that might be interested in a kit like this. I would *LOVE* to have a setup like this on my car personally; he told me that boost lag isn't a problem with the proper setup and tuning, and turbos are much more efficient. I know this guy's work, and everything he does is always top notch, with great fit and finish, so quality would certainly not be an issue. So anyone interested just reply. Thanks for hearing me out guys!

Keep us posted on the Turbo thing. If you'd like an up-close look at a Trilogy car, BillyGman lives quite close by. I'm from Ansonia. I miss the football game every Thanksgiving...

[natedog1284]

...I miss the football game every Thanksgiving...
Yeah, we do have some good rivalries here in the "All-American Valley", always makes for some good games! :beer:

I will be speaking to this guy again later in the week, and I'll try to get some more information regarding his plans for this kit...Again, this is all just hypothetical for the moment, but I appreciate all the feedback I'm getting. I would love to be able to do this, so let's hear from some more of you N/A guys out there! Thanks again everyone!

[ctrlraven]

if lag is such a problem, properly sized turbos will correct it or have one small low-mid rpm ranged turbo and one mid-high rpm ranged turbo. i've seen many TT fox bodies 5.0 do this. the smaller turbo spools up giving you that low end thrust and before you know it the larger turbo has already spooled up to the correct rpm for proper psi boost without lag. the one stang i rode in nearly scared the hell out of me cause if anyone has ever watched Back to the Future part 3 when they are boosting up the speed of the train with the canisters, it's kinda like that when the 2nd and 3rd canister blow. it's such an unbelieveble force :burn: and a great way to see if someone can grap the $50 bill sitting where the defroster vents are:lol:

[O's Fan Rich]

Yeah, we do have some good rivalries here in the "All-American Valley", always makes for some good games! :beer:

I will be speaking to this guy again later in the week, and I'll try to get some more information regarding his plans for this kit...Again, this is all just hypothetical for the moment, but I appreciate all the feedback I'm getting. I would love to be able to do this, so let's hear from some more of you N/A guys out there! Thanks again everyone!

I would love to here more about this possibility. I'm with Warpath in that I would adore having a TT setup.
I have seen that some of the Mustang/Cobra TT kits provide a tubular X member for the front suspension and engine mounting. This allows for more room for the tubes and pipes and such. It also saves some weight if I understand correctly.


I'm not that far from Conneticut either....

[2003CTMarauder]

Heres a bump!

[Gre8one7]

Im interested, after seeing a stang with twin turbos at autorama i think i would want to do it.

[BAD MERC]

C'mon guys, I had a supercharged '91 Bonneville SSEi (3.8 pushrod) and a '87 Turbo Supra (3.0 24v DOHC) a year before that. The turbo was great boost but high maintenence. The blown Pontiac was a handful with the FWD. Sure, maybe I am ignorant with the turbo technicals- but I am buying the Trilogy regardless. I can see both sides here, BUT... I guess I will have to ride in and drive both induction systems to fully appreciate it.

[natedog1284]

...Sure, maybe I am ignorant with the turbo technicals- but I am buying the Trilogy regardless...

Believe me, if this doesn't pan out, I am certainly buying the Trilogy blower too, but I'm just trying to get a rough number of members who would be interested in such a kit, not launch a war between the lovers of blowers vs. the lovers of turbos. At this stage, this is simply market research in the development of something we haven't seen before. We all love our 'Rauders, and we all love making them go fast, and this is simply another venture to that end.

[juno]

Yeah, see what you can find out. If it is significantly better then the single I may be interested.

[GreekGod]

Question about [Quote]:

"I would like to see Trilogy offer a racing/offroad upgrade to replace the Eaton blower with a twin screw design Whipple/Kenne Bell more efficient supercharger in their kit"

What is meant by "more efficient design"? Takes less hp to drive? Gets better fuel mileage? Both?

[MikesMerc]

The lysholm design (kenne Bell) is technically not any more efficient than a roots (eaton) based design....at least if you use the commonly accepted definition of blower efficiency which is a CFM produced vs air charge heat measurement.

Lysholm based units, just like the roots blowers, produce LOTS of heat at lower rpms. This is nothing notable as this is where these blowers make most of thier boost. The compression of the charge creates the heat. So, where ever in the powerband compression happens, heat happens.

Lysholms, just like roots blowers, need inter cooling to be effective in day to day applications with any kind of meaning CFM (boost). A Kenne Bell blower without a inter cooler is junk. I know. I had one. It pinged like a diesel on hot summer days at only 6 psi.

Anyway, the only difference between the roots and lysholm designs are in the rotor shape. Pure roots designs, like the Eaton, produce much of thier boost without having to spin very hard. They are great for low and mid range, but can fall off on the top end. Lysholms produce a little less boost down low, but produce monstorous mid range, and do not fall off at the top end.

Centrifugal designs produce little boost at low blower speeds, okay mid range, and create a halacious amount of top end boost. They run very cool in the low to mid range which is why they are considered "efficient." However, they produce a ton of heat when they are compressing and producing boost at the top end.

IMO, blower choice has nothing to do with efficiency. It has to do with where in the powerband you want to see your boost created. If you want it down low, you better get roots or lysholm design. However, becuase they start making compression (and heat) in the low end, you better have an inter cooler as well. Centrifugals can be easier to keep cool as they only create heat higher in the band, although they also respond well to inter cooling too as thier top end charge can get blistering hot as well.

All that said, Stay tune Lysholm fans!! Jerry has had some fruitful discussions with the Lysholm folks, and we may be seeing a bolt on upgrade for the Trilogy kit in the not so distant future. Some small tooling is needed, as well as a by-pass design, but that should not be too hard to pull off. (Unlike the Eaton that has a built in by pass, the Lysholms do not come with a by pass built in). I think Jerry will be making some announcements this spring.

[2003CTMarauder]

Heres a bump!

[GreekGod]

Q,-Was the (OEM) '57 T-Bird a Lysholm 'charger, without an intercooler?



quote:"The lysholm design (kenne Bell) is technically not any more efficient than a roots (eaton) based design....at least if you use the commonly accepted definition of blower efficiency which is a CFM produced vs air charge heat measurement."
-This makes sense!

quote:"Lysholms, just like roots blowers, need inter cooling to be effective in day to day applications with any kind of meaning CFM (boost). A Kenne Bell blower without a inter cooler is junk. I know. I had one. It pinged like a diesel on hot summer days at only 6 psi."
-Interesting

quote:"All that said, Stay tune Lysholm fans!! Jerry has had some fruitful discussions with the Lysholm folks, and we may be seeing a bolt on upgrade for the Trilogy kit in the not so distant future. Some small tooling is needed, as well as a by-pass design, but that should not be too hard to pull off. (Unlike the Eaton that has a built in by pass, the Lysholms do not come with a by pass built in). I think Jerry will be making some announcements this spring."
-A little confusing, "upgrade for Trilogy kit"? Trilogy kit is Eaton, so are you saying the possible future kit will combine a Lysholm with an Eaton?

[Dan]

Moderators,
This topic is one that is particularly interesting to a number of MM owners and one that has not been discussed nearly enough, IMHO.

I am not saying that anyone has done anything wrong but I am requesting that you moderate this topic going forward for the sake of keeping things on the subject at hand, keeping the conversation on turbos, and keeping things "unheated."

Thanks for any consideration you give us with this request.

Best,

Dan

[Dan]

Hello all, this is Nate, and I was just looking for some feedback on an idea. I went by my local speed shop today, (I won't post the name till I'm sure its ok!) because I wanted to ask him about his reccomendation as far as what I should do for forced induction. Eventually we got to talking about turbos, (I know, I know, I don't want to offend any Trilogy guys, I love that kit too, but hear me out ;) ). Anyway, he asked if I would be willing to let him use my car as a test car in developing a twin turbo kit for Marauders, as this would pretty much give him the only business around as far as a multiple turbo set-up for our cars. He asked me if I could get him some numbers of people that might be interested in a kit like this. I would *LOVE* to have a setup like this on my car personally; he told me that boost lag isn't a problem with the proper setup and tuning, and turbos are much more efficient. I know this guy's work, and everything he does is always top notch, with great fit and finish, so quality would certainly not be an issue. So anyone interested just reply. Thanks for hearing me out guys!
Hi Nate,

Dan here from Hard Hittin' New Britain. It seems like we CT guys are gonna have to schedule a meet come spring.

Anyway, I have been a closet turbo "fan" on this forum for quite a while. The last time I brought this subject up it didn't really take. I am glad that this one seems to be taking.

I did quite a bit of research myself and here are a few things that I have learned.

1. Turbos for the 4.6 are not rocket science. A lot of tuners have worked with them and have quite a bit of stuff ready right out of the box. HP Performance is one that comes to mind.
2. HP Performance (http://www.turbochargedpower.com/) is willing to lend some technical assistance to a project like this. I think that you would need to have me act as an intermediary to make it easier since I have a decent relationship w one of their owners.
3. HP makes one of the largest intercoolers out there, if not the largest.
4. HP has submitted the idea of making a new K-member to run the pipes through. I suspect that, for any kit to really sell to the average MM owner, running the pipes under the K-member would be a turn off. This is something for your guy to keep in mind.
5. There seems to be more than enough space just below the headlights to place the turbos.
6. There is a company that makes a tubo kit for Chevy's which actually replaces the mufflers. Check out http://www.ststurbo.com. Their idea is patented but they do sell kits which can be used for experimentation. Their concept seems to be pretty good and I suggest that you and your tuner look into them as well. I am sure that someone else will post their link.
7. I have been told, and it was mentioned here already, that to really get the power ROI that a turbo set up is capable of giving you you should really look into strengthening the lower end of the block. From what I understand you really limit yourself in total engine HP if you don't. To be honest, I wouldn't go the non supercharger route to come up with a car that had the same HP as a supercharged car.

There are a few other things that are of interest.

1. A custom K-member could conceivably be useful on Crown Vics and Grand Marquis. That would make ROI on a MM kit a bit quicker for someone who built one.
2. The turbo mounting location, brackets, etc. would very likely also be very similar for Panthers of comparable years, this again, woudl short the ROI time on a TT kit for the Panther platform.
3. Same goes for intercooler location.
4. Our intake goes in a different direction than the 2V 4.6 engines in other Panthers. Plumbing a kit for an MM would be different than for other Panthers.
5. Exhaust plumbing from the turbos to the exhausts would probably be the same for Panthers but I haven't thought that through so I could be wrong.
6. There are a lot of guys out there with Panthers who aren't afraid of the added maintenance that a turbo brings. If your guy can do a kit for the MM and then do the pipe bending needed for the other Panthers out there he might just have something which could make him some real money. Especially if it got coverage in MM&FF.

We have a few other guys around who are very much proponents of turbos. They may have more to add. I hope that what I have added is of some use to you. I am sure that others will be able to clarify some of my points. I am pretty sure on most of it but not 100%.

Still, it's the thought that counts. :) :up:

Best,

Dan

[natedog1284]

:eek: Wow, that's a lot of info to swallow Dan, and thanks, I had never even thought of the market that there could be with other Panther owners. I will definately bring that up to him tomorrow.

I definately agree with you that if I can't get the same power with twin turbos that you can with a supercharger, either roots of centrifugal, then I would be a lot more hesitant, (although I would still probably go for it because of the subsequent dropped jaws I'm sure I would enjoy at car shows! :D) However, to that end, he did tell me about a twin turbo kit he put on a Mustang GT that put down about 520 to the wheels, so it could be done. I think for the most part, as you said before, there's only so much our stock bottom ends can take, but even if it was dead even, it would give the turbo supporters another option. Besides, if that means more Marauders on the road that haul a**, then I think it is our civic duty to see that this happens :up:

But again thanks for the ideas, and I'll let him know tomorrow.

-Nate

P.S. I would vehemently endorse any Marauder Meet that was set up here in the Nutmeg State, so keep us posted!

[Dan]

Nate.

For the last couple of years I have pretty much been "the guy" who puts events together for MM owners in the CT/MA/RI area. I have co-chiared a cop car show two years running, have organized a number of Berlin Pike Cruises and hosted a foliage run where we drove some of the best drivers roads in the area. THAT was a blast! If we can get a core group of CSM owners together this summer should be the best one yet.

I want you to be successful with your project. I think it would be awesome for us to have a TT set up. Just remember tha this business of running pipes below K-members is not going to fly for a lot of guys, myself included.

If you figured out how to go the STS Turbo route you might wind up have a nearly stock looking set up. Have you thought about having a car that only drops jaws when the green light drops?

Anyhow, good luck to you with this, Nate. Expect to give up the use of your car for around 3 months, minimum. Make sure that the guys removes your front quarters before he gets going. And, of course, let me know if I can do some preliminary groundwork between your guy and HP Performance.

Best,

Dan

[natedog1284]

...let me know if I can do some preliminary groundwork between your guy and HP Performance.
Will do Dan, and thanks again for your support. As I said before, I'm going down there tomorrow to talk to him about this; if I can show him the enthusiasm and ideas I'm getting here, he'll probably do it, but again, I don't know for sure at the moment.
Yeah, I know my car will be down for a while, he told me that much anyway, but hey, if I can do this next winter, at least my car will be stored inside, so it's yet another plus for me! :D
Of course, while he's in there, I might as well look into having him put in a 5.0 stroker crank too....that would be pretty sweet....:cool4:
-Nate

[2003CTMarauder]

Then there will be smokey burnouts all day!:burnout:

[rayjay]

Just a thought, isn't the compression ratio of our engines a bit too high for turboing?

[Todd]

Just a thought, isn't the compression ratio of our engines a bit too high for turboing?

Generally speaking, you would think so.

But the general consensus is that the DOHC mod motors can handle greater compression ratio with forced induction. In fact, they like boost. Obviously apparent by looking at all the supercharged MArauders already on this site. That also comes from the many gues running turbo'd, supercharged cobras...


(Edit - IT is a given that would would be safer with lower compression. But it is safer to run our motors with a given level of boost than running a pushrod motor at the same level for instance.....)

[GreekGod]

Sorry Natedog1284, didn't mean to go off-topic but your man's statement got me curious: [quote]

[" he told me that boost lag isn't a problem with the proper setup and tuning, and turbos are much more efficient."]

Q1)Can someone explain why/how/in what sense a turbo driven supercharger is more efficient than a belt driver supercharger?

2)Would a tubular "K-member" replacement for the diecast x-member that mounts the engine, steering rack, and suspention bits gain any room for turbo-tubing? I just went out and looked at mine and there doesn't seem to be any wasted (or spare) space under there!

[TripleTransAm]

Q1)Can someone explain why/how/in what sense a turbo driven supercharger is more efficient than a belt driver supercharger?


The exhaust gases are going to be thrown away (along with the heat and motion energy in them) so why not harness that energy to drive the blower?

In contrast, the belt-driven supercharger is an always-there extra load on the motor even under no or low-boost conditions. And in this case, you're still throwing away energy through the exhaust.

[Todd]

The exhaust gases are going to be thrown away (along with the heat and motion energy in them) so why not harness that energy to drive the blower?

In contrast, the belt-driven supercharger is an always-there extra load on the motor even under no or low-boost conditions. And in this case, you're still throwing away energy through the exhaust.


Exactly...

Just to add a little. Turbos have been said to have approx 5% parasitic loss while operating. Whereas a belt driven supercharger (very broad term here so I will generalize) have approx 20% parasitic loss while operating.

Thats the difference between having to turn a belt with the motor you are powering versus recirculating exhaust gases.

[Todd]

Sorry Natedog1284, didn't mean to go off-topic but your man's statement got me curious: [quote]

[" he told me that boost lag isn't a problem with the proper setup and tuning, and turbos are much more efficient."]

Q1)Can someone explain why/how/in what sense a turbo driven supercharger is more efficient than a belt driver supercharger?

2)Would a tubular "K-member" replacement for the diecast x-member that mounts the engine, steering rack, and suspention bits gain any room for turbo-tubing? I just went out and looked at mine and there doesn't seem to be any wasted (or spare) space under there!


Regarding the k-member thing, you could recover some space. But someone would be hard pressed to recover enough to run allpipes back and forth through it AND retain/maintain the strength required.


But I am sure it could be done. With a good bit of R&D.

[natedog1284]

Sorry Natedog1284, didn't mean to go off-topic but your man's statement got me curious:
Q1)Can someone explain why/how/in what sense a turbo driven supercharger is more efficient than a belt driver supercharger?


No problem, this is a learning a experience for a lot of us, so we might as well cover as much ground as possible ;)

As for your question, Trilogy's web site has a great article about superchargers and turbos, you can check it out here: http://www.trilogymotorsports.com/products/bill_bowker.php

Very well written, makes me want both! :D
.....come to think of it.....no, never mind, now I'm getting out of control! :o

[Blackened300a]

Just a quick chime in. A TV show installed a turbo set-up into a Z28 and had the turbo piped in the exhaust at the rear of the car. They then ran the intake and oil lines forward which saved space. On the dyno it pumped out 265 RWHP Before the install and ended up with something like 380 RWHP. Thats off a single turbo application.

I want a turbo!

[natedog1284]

Yeah, I know what you're talking about. It's something Dan brought up last October. Squires Turbo Systems specializes in remote twin-turbo systems, but alas, they don't make one for our cars, and apparently they aren't really interested in ever making such a product either, so maybe my guy will jump into this and be the first one to make one! I don't know if he would be doing a remote setup like STS, or if he would be doing something like the HP turbo setup....something else I'll have to discuss with him tomorow!
-Nate

[GreekGod]

Thanks! Parasitic loss is one factor I was wondering about.


Exactly...

Just to add a little. Turbos have been said to have approx 5% parasitic loss while operating. Whereas a belt driven supercharger (very broad term here so I will generalize) have approx 20% parasitic loss while operating.

Thats the difference between having to turn a belt with the motor you are powering versus recirculating exhaust gases.

[O's Fan Rich]

Just a quick chime in. A TV show installed a turbo set-up into a Z28 and had the turbo piped in the exhaust at the rear of the car. They then ran the intake and oil lines forward which saved space. On the dyno it pumped out 265 RWHP Before the install and ended up with something like 380 RWHP. Thats off a single turbo application.

I want a turbo!

Yeah that was on "Two guy's garage"
It was this : http://www.ststurbo.com/
Here's a tech install
http://www.chevyhiperformance.com/techarticles/148_0502_turbo/

[ctrlraven]

:bump: :bump:, BADDA BING BADDA :bump:

[keithb123]

I'm interested!

[Dan]

Hey Natedog,

How about an update? Did you talk to your guy? How did it go?

Thanks,

Dan

[natedog1284]

Hey Natedog,

How about an update? Did you talk to your guy? How did it go?

Thanks,

Dan

I talked to him a little bit last week. He doesn't seem to like the idea of doing an STS style setup, (why I'm not sure), and he was also talking about doing a single turbo setup, (which I'm not really interested in; I would just as soon go for the Proturbo system). I need to see if I can talk him into doing an STS style setup, because I don't really see how he'd be able to fit two turbos under our hoods; it would be a plumbing nightmare. I'll keep you posted. I'm bringing my car in on the 21st of this month to get it tuned so I can finally get some numbers for the guys that were interested in my heads. (I'm gonna hold off on the throttle body right now, because I want to buy a handgun first :D). While I'm there I'll talk more to him, and if I get any new information I'll be sure to post. Stay tuned!
-Nate

[BK_GrandMarquis]

This would be nice under our trunks. :D

http://i.b5z.net/i/u/1473169/i/mustang/mustang%20twins.jpg

They have plans for a universal system.:drool:

[rumble]

This would be nice under our trunks. :D

http://i.b5z.net/i/u/1473169/i/mustang/mustang%20twins.jpg

They have plans for a universal system.:drool:

Man! Just looking at that setup makes me think that the
"turbo lag" would be horrible. Is it?

Neat plumbing though.

[FordNut]

Man! Just looking at that setup makes me think that the
"turbo lag" would be horrible. Is it?

Neat plumbing though.
I saw one of those setups on a 'stang that a customer brought to Team Ford once. The rear bumper cover was melted from the turbo heat and the car had terrible turbo lag, they never got it to run right and stripped all that stuff off to return it to stock.

[BK_GrandMarquis]

Man! Just looking at that setup makes me think that the
"turbo lag" would be horrible. Is it?

Neat plumbing though.

From what I understand, the turbos are small so they spool up easily.

[Vortech347]

STS's are crap. I've yet to see a car with their kits run good. I've seen 3 STS cars in person and for all the work involved nothing amazing just disapointing. There are several 4.6 mod guys around here running singles and hauling serious ass. A couple people have twins too... We've got a TON of room compared to the mod stangs.

[94_302]

There is a guy in the 94-95 mustang section who did the STS turbo but he is moving them to front mount. He had the air filters in the side vents and he said that everytime it would rain he would get water and was worried he might hyrdolock the motor. I don't think he had any problems with lag or anything like that, and I'm not sure about the paint near the turbo.

[Joe Walsh]

STS system pictured:
Note how the air filters are about 3 inches away from the rear tires....WTF???
Nice set-up in the rain....:( ..... plus you get to clean and re-oil your K&N EVERY week!
As previously stated, I'd bet on LOTS of turbo lag.....having to pressurize ALL OF THAT PIPING.

[Mike M]

The length of exhaust pipe becomes a built in intercooler. I read a review online from Hot Rod or Car Craft and the really liked it. I would like to drive one first, the universal kit is about $3000.00 if I remember correctly.

[DarthMarauder]

Thats one hell of a stealth setup for PINKS. LOL

[David Morton]

Dyno numbers don't lie.

And experience at the tracks, drag, circle and road courses say turbos are the way to go for racing.

No need to detune a turbo to get the same HP as a blower. If properly tuned, a turbo making the same boost as a blower will have higher HP and torque because it has less parasitic loss, no belt dragging off torque from the front of the crankshaft.

Turbo technology has improved much since those days back in '80s, but the really big improvement in turbo reliability has more to do with the better oils available today that can deal with the heat turbos expose the oil to.

The way I look at it, blowers are great for bottom-end grunt. Want to warm up those Nittos and lift the front tires off the ground? Get a blower.

But spool-up time hasn't kept turbos from being the fastest thing at the track, it's the rules about not being able to run them in many classes.

The way I see it, after that first 60 feet, any serious engine is going to be doing 3500 rpm and any turbo lag will be a memory by then. On to 6200 rpm and the 1-2 shift occurs and we're back to, you guessed it, 3500. A good turbo setup will always be faster at the track than a blower alone on any given engine simply because of the belt.

Click here (http://www.ststurbo.com/fast_customers) to see some of the STS fast customers. 9.33 in a C5 'Vette isn't bad. And a 1.465 second 0-60' time in a GTO tells me lag isn't that much of a problem.

Air filters and piping are incidental problems that can be fixed. This thread is about the dual turbo idea. How it could work, what system would fit best, how to tune it. These are the things I've been waiting to see the answers for. Taking pot-shots at particulars or defending an entirely different setup is unproductive.

I think a blower is a good setup for a street machine, but I'm partial to the come-from-behind turbo style. It's 10.63 at 129 mph blower car (with a 30 shot of nitrous) versus 10.53 at 145 mph and no nitrous that I'm thinking we're gonna see someday. It's the tuners we need to get on line here with the concept of the dual turbos. My experience at Buick with the Grand National (a single turbo 3.8L V6) tells me it's possible.

Tune is where it's at, always has been. Even in the days of Holley double pumpers, dual point distributors, tunnel-ram intakes and mushroom tappets. If you're not getting enough fuel or it's dripping out of the exhaust pipe, it ain't gonna be streetable.

[natedog1284]

Well said David. We're still kinda in the R&D phase of this. I would like to do an STS style setup, but the guy I'm working with is more interested in putting both under the hood. It seems to me that this would create more heat, so we would need a rather large intercooler to make any decent power. Then you have the problem of plumbing, and potential damage to electronic components that aren't sufficiently insulated. There is also the issue of how this crowded engine compartment will interfere with regular maintenance, (i.e. oil changes). He is convinced it will work, and is better than an STS style setup for the reasons mentioned before. But I for one am not convinced.
I'm glad there is more interest in this, I hope some way or another we can make it happen. I'll keep you updated.
BTW, I personally am not in a position to make any money off this, so if anyone can beat me to it, feel free. I just want my car to be twin turboed!

[BK_GrandMarquis]

BTW, I personally am not in a position to make any money off this, so if anyone can beat me to it, feel free. I just want my car to be twin turboed!

That's my dream too. :D ;)
:burnout:

Couldn't the piping be ceramic coated to reduce heat? I know that would cost more but nothing done well is really cheap, now is it? :)

[maraudernkc]

Turbos are quick.

]

[David Morton]

Fine KC. Thanks for editing out the post filled with self-justifying remarks about the blower you're using.

The purpose of this thread is to discuss the ways of making a different technology work on our cars, not argue about which technology is best.

Can we keep our eye on the ball? Yes we can.

KC, you're a steely-eyed Marauder Man. Kudos for the humility to edit that stuff out.

I propose we cast a "Most Humble" medal to award KC.

But we'll have to take it away from him if he wears it.

[natedog1284]

Fine KC, but what's that got to do with the thread?

Come on guys! The purpose of this thread is to discuss the ways of making a different technology work on our cars, not argue about which technology is best.

Can't we keep our eye on the ball?

Again, well said David. I know centrifugals can add a lot of power, but so can turbos, and, to the best of my knowledge, there are no twin turbo marauders, or if there are, they are at least few and far between. Let's keep this topic on a turbo setup please.

[GreekGod]

If these can fit on a Mustang big block, then turbos could in a Marauder...



There was a 67-68 Mustang at the Hot Rod Magazine sponsored Pump Gas Drags last Friday; here's a photo of the motor, courtesy of 1320 Video:

http://www.network54.com/Realm/JaysPictures/2paxFE.jpg

Two Paxton Novi 2000 superchargers plus nitrous; pretty cool setup. Unfortunately, according to a post on the Hotrod.com message boards, one of the superchargers grenaded during a burnout at the event, leaving the car unable to compete.

[Dan]

Nate,

Get down on the ground and look at the space behind the front air dam. If I recall correctly there is a space there that is about the size of a bread box.

Then take a look at the HP Turbos intercooler.

The fitment in the bay isn't what the biggest problem is. To me, at least, it is the fact that you need to run your pipes BELOW the k-member. IMHO a new k-member would need to be built which would allow the plumbing to pass through it.

Best,

Dan

PS: I, too, am hoping for a twin turbo set up someday.

[Dan]

Well, at the last Pike run I met Nate's "turbo guy." He sounds very, very reputable and we discussed in detail what a turbo set up would entail.

He quickly destroyed the "no room" myth by quickly demonstrating right where he would put the turbo. He also addressed the K-member issue quite nicely, too.

I'm hoping that I can afford to have this done to my car asap. I'm respectfully waiting for Nate to make a final call on his, though. That and awaiting winter time. We all know how long a project like this would take.

Best,

Dan

[TAF]

He also addressed the K-member issue quite nicely, too.

Best,

Dan

I'd like to know how that was "addressed"...if you don't mind sharing.....

[Dan]

He told me that he could go through the K-member.

[TAF]

He told me that he could go through the K-member.

Is his name...Criss Angel?

http://www.believeinangel.com/wallpapers/crissangelwallpaper5.jpg

[juno]

I put pics of the PTK general routing.
The exhaust runs under the K-member on their kit.

http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?p=394711#post39 4711

[Dan]

Is his name...Criss Angel?

No, and obviously, your's isn't Jeff Foxworthy, either. :)

[TAF]

No, and obviously, your's isn't Jeff Foxworthy, either. :)

"If you try to go THROUGH the K-Member on a Marauder to do a turbo set-up....

You might be a Red Neck..."


But seriously...I'd like to see just how that would be done...with sufficient size tubing....be sure to post up some pics....



I put pics of the PTK general routing.
The exhaust runs under the K-member on their kit.


Agreed...that's they way I've personally seen it done, as well...on the 1st ever turbo'd Marauder that joined us for breakfast over 2 years ago here in Atlanta....and several of us took rides. BTW....there were a couple (few) built by the same group....all of them grenaded their motors.....

[Dan]

Good reply, TAF. :up:

Of course there would be pics a-plenty. I'm certain that the "K" would need to be reconfigured quite a bit to allow for the right size piping.

Best,

Dan

[BlownBlass]

I too am working on the twin-turbo setup. I will post when I have worked out the details. It will come.

[MM_BKK]

I would prefer a large single turbo due to less piping and complication. I wouldn't mind turbo lag at all. It will allow the car to somewhat get traction while moving before all that awesome turbo torque kicks in! I've seen 6cyl 3 liter engine put down some 800+ horsepower with single turbo! If you need to take off without turbo lag, all you have to do is pre-spool the turbo at the starting line by holding the brakes and gas at the same time. Adjusting the boost on the turbo is soooo much easier than a supercharger. All you would have to do is press a couple of buttons on the electronic boost controller or just turn a knob. No swapping out pulleys and belts!

[InglewoodAwk]

Twins! Every guy's dream. I want in.

[SWOOSH]

What's a turbo?

[Vortech347]

At 88mph it produces exactly 1 gigawatt of electricity, if you're not carefull you'll end up in 1955.

[Joe Walsh]

dead thread alert!!!!

[RF Overlord]

At 88mph it produces exactly 1 gigawatt of electricity1.21 gigawatts.

[ctrlraven]

If someone had enough time and money it could happen and there is enough space in the engine bay to do twin turbos of the right size.

[Vortech347]

1.21 gigawatts.

T hat explaines why I kept going to the wrong year... :eek:

[wchain]

dead thread alert!!!!
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v437/HitManX/ForumPics/resurrection.jpg