Good News?

[SergntMac]

http://www.dynoperformance.com/article_details.php?ID=20

I don't know if the MM motor is a brother to the Cobra motor, or, just a distant "kissin cousin," but this reads "good news" to me.

[Warpath]

Distant cousins. Besides the obvious blower, the 03 Cobra intake, cams, and maybe heads are different; iron block instead of aluminum; it has forged pistons and rods instead of cast; it has a lower compression ratio since its blown (I think 9:1 vs. about 11:1 - I can't remember off the top of my head); I think oil pan. It was designed to be blown and quite a bit different from 1999/2001 Cobra and MM engines. With a few bolt ons and a good tune, it can get near 500 bhp.

[Warpath]

By the way, I hope to rebuild my engine this summer with forged internals and upping boost to 12 psi. If I do, I'll let you know what the outcome is. It should give you an idea of what is possible.

[SergntMac]

Thanks, Joe, and yes, I am interested in your plans.

I would like to know more about the motor we have in the MM, and it sounds like there are many differences after all. At one time, I simply believed that our MM motor was the Cobra motor with a flipped intake. It doesn't seem that way anymore. If you know of any site I can read up on the MM motor, please let me know?

I have been considering rebuilding my MM motor, but building up, like you suggest. This has been just a lot of day dreaming for me, and I thought just my sympathetic longing for my "old days."

Now, it may become a reality someday, keep me posted, please?

[mad man]

Hi sarge since your talking mm motor's what's the thinking of racing fuel. since we can get some at the track

[TripleTransAm]

Originally posted by SergntMac
http://www.dynoperformance.com/article_details.php?ID=20



I took a look at one of their "stock" MM dyno curves. Note the word "stock".

254 peak rwhp... cool.

... at 6610 RPM... not so cool.

I'm not calling BS or anything, but isn't a "stock" MM supposed to shut down at just past 6000 RPM? *shrug*

Regarding the 2003 Cobra motor, yep I've been hearing from all over the place that this motor is underrated. The reasons they list in your link make sense, too. I'm glad... it will no doubt make up for the 1999 or 2000 over-rating problem that dragged down the poor car's reputation.

My 1998 dyno'ed bone stock at 310 rwhp with some 10000 miles on it. Being an M6, I'll assume a high 15% loss and come up with a 365 flywheel horsepower. With a conservative 10% loss (doubtful, maybe more like 12%), it's still 345 flywheel hp. Compared with the 320 hp rating from GM...

[SergntMac]

This is my first try at double quoting, hope it works and bear with me if it does not, k?


Originally posted by mad man
Hi sarge since your talking mm motor's what's the thinking of racing fuel. since we can get some at the track

Hi Gary...Jeeze, I just don't know what to expect here. I'm daily driving on 93 octane with a 10% ethanol blend, same stuff I've used from my first fill up. I tried a few "off the shelf" octane boosters here and there, all seemed bogus because I didn't feel, or, find any difference from adding them. My dyno numbers didn't produce any change either, so, I'm blind on this.

I'll probably stick with what works on the daily drive, what gives me my "seat-of-my-pants" performance today and run this pump blend at GLD. I'm open for advice on this too, anyone?


Originally posted by TripleTransAm
My 1998 dyno'ed bone stock at 310 rwhp with some 10000 miles on it. Being an M6, I'll assume a high 15% loss and come up with a 365 flywheel horsepower. With a conservative 10% loss (doubtful, maybe more like 12%), it's still 345 flywheel hp. Compared with the 320 hp rating from GM...

TTA...Enough! I give, okay? You win!

I cannot track your cars anymore, I have tried believe me, time and time again, to keep your automotive experience and pace in my head. You're kicking my a*s here, and this ain't working. You have too much Detroit steel in your yard, and too much history in your head. Lemme up, okay? Uncle?

I know you own an MM, but WTF do you mean with your "my 1998 dynoed at..."? What does your reference mean to me here and now? Your "1998" what? And W T F is an "M6?"

What do you mean by "GM"? Do you point to a Grand Marquis, or, a General Motors car? And, how does any of this figure here in this thread...In this discussion, of MM and Cobra motors, dynos, plans for performance rebuilds, racing gas and so on?

Please help me figure this out, bud, 'cause I haven't the time to keep a scrapbook on your cars. k?

I'm not trying to flame you, but I am seriously confused too.

[UncleLar]

I believe that refers to his 98 Trans Am ,M6 is 6 speed manual tranny.

[SergntMac]

Originally posted by UncleLar
I believe that refers to his 98 Trans Am , M6 is 6 speed manual tranny.

Okay UncleLar, maybeTTA means well, and again, I don't mean to flame his butt. But, I cannot keep up with his shorthand. When he points to something, I have learned to read and listen, ya know?

Lately, I've become lost by trying to keep up with his facts and figures. While I don't mean any harm here, TTA is kicking my as* with his data, that has no meaning what-so-ever with my MM experience, okay?

Come on already TTA, leggo my arm, you win!

[TripleTransAm]

Originally posted by SergntMac
I know you own an MM, but WTF do you mean with your "my 1998 dynoed at..."? What does your reference mean to me here and now? Your "1998" what? And W T F is an "M6?"

What do you mean by "GM"? Do you point to a Grand Marquis, or, a General Motors car? And, how does any of this figure here in this thread...In this discussion, of MM and Cobra motors, dynos, plans for performance rebuilds, racing gas and so on?


Sorry for the confusion. I took it for granted that it was clear I was referring to my 1998 Trans Am, since I have that listed in my 'sig' (or whatever one calls it on a message board format). Same with 'GM'... given I was referring to the '98 TA, I figured there was no chance of mistaking '320 hp' and 'Grand Marquis'. I apologize for the lack of clarity, English not being my mother tongue (nor is French, for that matter).

I also apologize for the length of some of my posts. Again, linguistic limitations are at play and it's tough for me to convey concise details in text... I'm more of a 'draw it on the white board when explaining it to the colleagues at work' type.

I apologize for the voluminous 'data' of automotive nature. Fact is, I've harvested an incredible amount of information and knowledge about the MM in my brief time here, ultimately leading to my purchase. I feel indebted to this great group of enthusiastic individuals and I've tried to pay my debt by forfeiting whatever little scraps of automotive data I've collected and experienced over the years... some of it through personal experience, a lot of it through learning from others on the many car-related lists I participate in or have participated in. Being the type to crave learning new things on a daily basis, I was hoping some might find it somewhat entertaining or perhaps informative. There has never been any intent at 'kicking anybody's a*s", whatever that can represent in an environment such as an internet message board.

What did my post have to do with the Cobra? I may have completely missed the point of that link you sent, but I thought it focused on the present Cobra's underrated figures from Ford. I felt the article was bang-on, having heard similar stories from other sources. The inclusion of my own under-rating experiences (the 98 TA) was meant to show it's not a unique occurrence in the automotive world nowadays (and I truly welcome it... I wouldn't have minded being insured for a 300 hp MM which in reality put out 330 or more, but alas the dynos do not cater to this wish...)

Again, it's all just because I happen to go ape-**** when it comes to talking cars... I can't help it, I do it in public too when I'm in the presence of die-hard gearheads. If I wasn't in it for the learning, I wouldn't be sticking my nose into threads. I honestly don't think there's anything about the MM that makes it *unique* in automotive history... the same laws of mechanics and physics apply to it like all other cars.

Your prose may not have been intended as a flame, but no matter how many times I read and re-read your text, I can't shake the feeling you're taking all this as some sort of pissing match. If that's the case, I guess I sort of apologize for that but there really is nothing I can do about it since none of it was intentional. So, given that you've ac***ulated FAR more MM experience than I can hope to attain even in 3 years worth of ownership, I guess the best thing to do for everyone's sake is for me to clam up and not piss you off any further in whatever way I seem to be.

So, y'all have a nice day, k? TTA over and out...

[RF Overlord]

YO, 3TA...don't go away mad...

I sincerely doubt Sarge meant any negative criticism in his statements...although we haven't met in person, my wife has met Sarge and will confirm that he is a perfect gentleman with a big heart and a very generous nature...(sorry if I've blown your cover, Sarge... ;) )

He also has a special way with words, and as you noted, the one-dimensional nature of this board makes mis-interpretation very easy. I, too, am overwhelmed by your storehouse of factoids, many of which are gems, but some of which may not strictly apply in the Marauder world...PLEASE don't let this stop you from offering your insights...if they don't necessarily apply every time, well, that's what the "ignore" button is for, but I don't want to miss that occasional pearl, either...

And since YOU brought it up, what exactly IS your mother tongue?

[sailsmen]

TTA your posts are all perfectly clear to me.

[SergntMac]

TTA, no harm intended, no anger in in my words, and surely...no pee on my toes. Where you extrapoliate this from I can't say. And, not that I have, but who am I to remark about the length of anyone's post?

I have a point to make with you, but I meant to bust your chops a bit too. It didn't work out that way, and I sincerely apologize. Please continue to contribute.

There are times your added opinion is right on the mark, just what we need to hear. Once in a while, (as it happens to us all), I do not get your point, or your perspective for that matter. You sound like a teacher in a classroom, and I think you do yourself a diservice in that.

The nature of this medium is flat, one dimensional, what one types, is not what another will read and I just proved that again here. I should remember to avoid my local slang. Not everyone here lives on my block, we're not all from the same neighborhood and that does excape me from time to time. I do feel we are all buds of one form or another, so, it's easy to get the feeling that it's okay to bust some chops. We do see others doing this on a regular basis, guess it's not for everyone.

To me, this forum is a big garage, and we're all standing around one car, trading tips and telling stories. When someone joins us, he should be shown courtesy and given an audience when he wants to add to the commentary. Likewise, the new guy, should listen too.

I try, whenever possible, to type sentences that should carry a sound with them, like I'm speaking to you face to face, add a touch realism to this flat medium. Rather than type, TTA, you could try talking when posting? Just a suggestion, offered in a friendly manner.

Again I apologize, no harm intended, no anger in my words (actually quite the opposite) and surely, no pee on my shoes.

I'm leaving my errors up here for others to read. We all could be doing this just a bit better, yes?

[ITZAMERC]

Trans Am, I had no trouble following your first post. But I've worked with engineers for 20+ years. Now I can't communicate with non-technicals anymore, LOL.

--- Itza

[sailsmen]

There is an easy way, click on Preferences, Edit Ignore List, anyone you add to the list and their posts will only show their handle and not their post in the thread, If you want to see their post just click to open it in the thread.

[Menace]

I put myself on the ignore list. :rolleyes: :coolman: :D

[Warpath]

Originally posted by SergntMac
Thanks, Joe, and yes, I am interested in your plans.

I would like to know more about the motor we have in the MM, and it sounds like there are many differences after all. At one time, I simply believed that our MM motor was the Cobra motor with a flipped intake. It doesn't seem that way anymore. If you know of any site I can read up on the MM motor, please let me know?

I have been considering rebuilding my MM motor, but building up, like you suggest. This has been just a lot of day dreaming for me, and I thought just my sympathetic longing for my "old days."

Now, it may become a reality someday, keep me posted, please?

The 2001 Cobra and MM engines are really similar except for the intake and maybe cams and/or timing. MM uses regular gas correct? Whereas, Cobras use premium (91 or 93). Ford stated the MM intake is the most free flowing intake they have. So, I think there is more to it than flipping it. The 03 Cobra engine is basically only similar in the fact that it is a 4 cam, 4V, 4.6L engine with the same crank. Just about everything else has been changed. I don't remember everything and I don't really have time to search for it. I only check this site during my lunch break. So, you have to suffer with my spotty memory. To learn more about the MM engine, you might want to try talking to SHM or Kenny Brown. They may have torn some down and learned a few things. If you want to learn more about the Cobra engines, there are countless number of Mustang sites. I go to www.corral.net .

As far as octane boost, you will not see any gain unless the engine is tuned for it. Upping octane reduces the chances of detonation. Therefore, timing could be advanced or boost increased for blown engines. Also, I have read octane boost additives will eventually clog up O2 sensors. I have a racing buddy who told me racing gas (~104 octane) will clog stock catalytic converters. I have no proof of the last two however.

As far as my engine, it was all a daydream for me too until the engine broke. I gave it to Livernois Motorsports here in MI and they gave it back to me broken. I don't recommended anyone going there. Anyway, I am thinking now of getting JE 9 cc dished pistons to give 9:1 CR, Manley rods, race bearings (I don't drive it much), assorted fasteners. I am looking for a good engine builder. I hope to have them tell me everything I should get. Once I get a list, I'll post it with prices so you will know what to expect. I am hoping to spend between $3000 and $4000 for the rebuild only. I'll pull and reinstall the engine. I'll also need a new tune.

[WolfeBros]

Joe, The Marauder engine wants 91 octane and with the chip 93.
I have heard it uses the cams out of the 5.4 engine that LM had in the Navigator. That engine was good for 300 hp while the standard 5.4 in the F-150's and Expeditions was 260 hp.
The difference between the Cobra and MM 4.6.......I have no real knowledge of........but we are real interested about it on here. :D
You already know about the intake setup.

[Warpath]

I heard 2003 Cobra cams are Navi cams also. I have heard MM and 1999/2001 Cobra engines were the same except for intake and maybe cams. 1999/2001 Cobra cams are not Navi cams.

The weak point of these engines is the cast pistons. They do not like detonation one bit. The rods are also rather weak. But, the pistons usually go first. The 03 Cobra engine replaced them with forgings. Any Mustang owner rebuilding an engine always upgrades to forgings. However, the stock internals are not as fragile as eggs though. Lidio over at Alternative Auto got over 700 hp out of an engine with stock internals (for a little while at least). He ended up pulling the pistons apart from excessive rpm. I think he had it near 8,000 or 9,000 rpm. With a proper tune and if you avoid trying to squeeze every hp out of it, you usually don't have much to worry about. I don't think you'll get 150k miles out of a blown engine. But, you'll should get plenty if your careful.

[Warpath]

BTW, I'll try to take pictures of my internals if I get a chance and post them. You'll have to be patient though since I may not take the engine apart for a month or two. It may not be rebuilt until the end of summer.