View Full Version : New Engine, No Warranty
Further to my new engine thread:
When the shop pulled out the old engine, I told them to look in the oil pan for shavings or anything that might show internal failure which led to the engine ejecting the spark plug. I also told them that they should look up into the engine with the pan off to see if there were any signs of internal failure.
Talked to the mechanic who did the work. He said that he saw some small metal particles in the pan, but they looked like they came from installing the heli coil, not like any engine failure he had ever seen. He also said that when he looked up in the engine, he didn't see any sign of failure in any parts.
OK, so now for the big question.
Why did this engine just decide all of a sudden to eject a spark plug? I can't think of anything that I did that could have caused it, but if I did something wrong, someone tell me so that I won't do it again and ruin another engine.
On the other hand, if I didn't do anything wrong, did I just get a POS engine from the factory that was doomed to fail way prematurely?
There has to be a reason for this. Either I screwed up, or Ford did.
cyclone03
03-02-2006, 09:32 AM
There's no way you could get shavings from installing a heli coil in the combustion chamber in the oil pan unless there's a hole in the piston!
Any metal in the pan is from a broken part,piston,or oil pump is my guess.
Maybe a timing chain?
My guess is when the heli coil was installed they put it in too deep,leaving the thread insert in the combustion chamber,causing a hot spot,causing detonation,causing a piston to break,causing the mechanics to make you think it's your fault so they don't have to eat a rebuilt engine!
RF Overlord
03-02-2006, 01:46 PM
Why did this engine just decide all of a sudden to eject a spark plug? I can't think of anything that I did that could have caused it, but if I did something wrong, someone tell me so that I won't do it again and ruin another engine.Ross, have you changed the plugs from the OEM? Did you use anti-seize? Did you use a torque wrench?
MENINBLK
03-02-2006, 01:49 PM
There has to be a reason for this. Either I screwed up, or Ford did.
ALUMINUM HEAD
Yes, shortly before this happened I changed out my plugs to Bosch Platinum plugs. Didn't torque them, but I never have since I started changing plugs in the 1960's. Used a little anti seize on the threads.
TripleTransAm
03-02-2006, 02:07 PM
ALUMINUM HEAD
That's not a nice thing to call Ross...
I never used a torque wrench on the plugs when I changed them (twice so far). But then again I can't really say I "torque" them down either, I only snug them on until it feels 'right'. Very unscientific approach, I know. I guess it's a 4.6 thing because it's not the first I've heard of spark plugs shooting out of the heads, stripping the threads clean. Meanwhile, I've not heard of any such occurrences on the aluminum headed GM V8s, at least in the F-body crowd (and it ain't easy using a torque wrench on the plugs on an LT1 F-body, I can tell you that much).
merc406
03-02-2006, 02:12 PM
Motor was cold when you changed the plugs?
That's not a nice thing to call Ross....
Believe me, I'm married, AND I'm a lawyer. I've been called a lot worse!
RF Overlord
03-02-2006, 02:15 PM
Didn't torque them, but I never have since I started changing plugs in the 1960's.Unfortunately, this is not your father's Oldsmobile...aluminium heads are VERY susceptible to thread damage from improper torquing. I'm not saying you caused the problem, but it's possible the plugs were over-tightened, and the threads, of which there are precious few in these heads, may have been stressed.
Motor was cold when you changed the plugs?
Either cold or "room temperature." Definitely not noticeably warm. Did everything the same way I've always done it. I've changed plugs on this car before, but used OEM plugs before.
TripleTransAm
03-02-2006, 02:18 PM
In the spring of '04 I pulled all the plugs to check if there was any sign of trouble with those infamous driver's side cylinders. I did notice that the technician who reassembled my engine after the 'tick' incident cross-threaded the spark plug on one of those cylinders. The threads were kind of munched but useable. I thoroughly cleaned the threads on the plug and reinstalled, and haven't had any problems yet, knock on e-wood.
merc406
03-02-2006, 02:19 PM
Either cold or "room temperature." Definitely not noticeably warm. Did everything the same way I've always done it. I've changed plugs on this car before, but used OEM plugs before.
Sumofa*****, I don't know then, prolly a bad cast.. No warranty???????:bs:
After market warranty, 81K miles. Warranty people wanted evidence of what caused the failure. If I can't show that the engine self destructed, they ain't paying. I could always sue the %^&$#'s, but I don't know any good lawyers!
DEFYANT
03-02-2006, 02:24 PM
This may answer your question. This post :down: (http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showpost.php?p=327758&postcount=15) shows the slag inside our engines. I think we all have it. This post is from the Cam Cover Replacement thread.
I remember that thread, Defyant. Is that the kind of thing that could cause a plug to eject?
TripleTransAm
03-02-2006, 02:43 PM
This may answer your question. This post :down: (http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showpost.php?p=327758&postcount=15) shows the slag inside our engines. I think we all have it. This post is from the Cam Cover Replacement thread.
I'm not familiar with the word "slag". Is that the shiny line of stuff going from top to bottom on that photo, on the inside of the timing chain cover? (on what looks like a ridge?).
Edit: okay, I see where the cam cover extends to. Nasty.
merc406
03-02-2006, 03:00 PM
Reminds me of the metal model's I use to build, had to shave that crap off with a knife and file.
thePunisher
03-02-2006, 03:05 PM
thats not slag its called casting flash. it is a byproduct of the casting process. it has no effect on the durability of the engine and probably will never come loose. if you ever seen the valley of a windsor or small block chevy...it is loaded with it. slag is garbage left over from the welding process. it can be chipped away with a hammer.
ford doesnt even know why the plugs are blowing out. it all comes down to a weak casting. nuthin else. only about 3 threads hold those plugs in. in my time at the dealer, i bet ive replaced about 15 modular heads because of this problem. it is usually the truck heads that it happens to cyl 3 or 4 most commonly. i bet we see 1 or 2 come in per month. its just the luck of the draw. there is no way to prevent it...torquing, never seize...doesnt matter. i actually had one truck that blew at 15000mi...we did a head and the new head blew another plug out on an adjacent cylinder 2 years later. ford revised the replacment plugs to have a fully threaded shoulder and that seems to have helped but it still happens occasionally.
ford doesnt even know why the plugs are blowing out. it all comes down to a weak casting. nuthin else. only about 3 threads hold those plugs in. in my time at the dealer, i bet ive replaced about 15 modular heads because of this problem. it is usually the truck heads that it happens to cyl 3 or 4 most commonly. i bet we see 1 or 2 come in per month. its just the luck of the draw. there is no way to prevent it...torquing, never seize...doesnt matter. i actually had one truck that blew at 15000mi...we did a head and the new head blew another plug out on an adjacent cylinder 2 years later. ford revised the replacment plugs to have a fully threaded shoulder and that seems to have helped but it still happens occasionally.
After just paying $5K for this new engine, the thought that this could happen again out of the blue scares the ****z out of me. :depress:
thePunisher
03-02-2006, 04:03 PM
well you do have a 3yr 36000mi warranty on it if that helps at all....it was purchased from a dealer correct???. i did hear the ford had recasted the heads to have more plug threads but they wanted to sell all old stock before releasing them to dealers. dont know for sure if theres any truth to that at all...ill be at the ford training center in yonkers tomorrow...ill ask the engineer if he knows anything about this....
JACook
03-02-2006, 05:02 PM
ford doesnt even know why the plugs are blowing out. it all comes down to a weak casting. nuthin else. only about 3 threads hold those plugs in. in my time at the dealer, i bet ive replaced about 15 modular heads because of this problem. it is usually the truck heads that it happens to cyl 3 or 4 most commonly. i bet we see 1 or 2 come in per month. its just the luck of the draw. there is no way to prevent it...torquing, never seize...doesnt matter. i actually had one truck that blew at 15000mi...we did a head and the new head blew another plug out on an adjacent cylinder 2 years later. ford revised the replacment plugs to have a fully threaded shoulder and that seems to have helped but it still happens occasionally.
Granted I've not done as many of these as your shop, but every one I've seen so far has happened after someone has had
the plugs out. I'm a firm believer in torque wrenches, clean threads, and a small dab of aluminum-base anti-seize. Granted,
there are no guarantees in life, but I believe in minimizing my chances for problems.
Also, I'm curious how changing to a fully-threaded plug would make any difference at all. You still have the same number of
threads in the head holding the plug in. Wasn't the newer plug released to fit the later "PI" heads?
I'm also a big fan of using TimeSerts for this repair. I'm of the opinion that the less you molest the engine, the less chance
there is for surgical complications. The TimeSert has maybe one or two more threads than the original, but otherwise fits
the standard spark plug as if nothing had happened. Unlike HeliCoils, TimeSerts will _not_ come out.
Yeah, I don't get paid as much to do a TimeSert as I could if I replaced the head, but that's not quite so important to a free-
lancer like myself...
thePunisher
03-02-2006, 05:30 PM
ive seen cars with under 10,000mi blow the plug out...and the plugs were never touched. not sure on fords theory of the revised plug....i thought the same thing...if im not mistaken the only difference on the pi heads is the intake port dimensions....plugs should be the same...ford is very strict about repairing the heads....they do not recommend it and will not honor the repair under warranty...what you do on your own time aft the warranty is up is your choice....however i know of alot of mom/pop shops which have repaired the hole but the fix did not last long in any of the attempts....there is not too much material to work with in there...
JACook
03-02-2006, 06:29 PM
ive seen cars with under 10,000mi blow the plug out...and the plugs were never touched. not sure on fords theory of the revised plug....i thought the same thing...if im not mistaken the only difference on the pi heads is the intake port dimensions....plugs should be the same...ford is very strict about repairing the heads....they do not recommend it and will not honor the repair under warranty...what you do on your own time aft the warranty is up is your choice....however i know of alot of mom/pop shops which have repaired the hole but the fix did not last long in any of the attempts....there is not too much material to work with in there...
I thought I understood the later PI heads had a few more threads holding in the spark plugs as well. Or maybe not.
I understand Ford's position on inserts under warranty, and I'm fine with that. (GM has a different policy, BTW.)
But I would not lump all insert repairs together into the same group. The TimeSert is unlike any other insert repair
I've ever used. And, to the contrary, there's plenty of material for this insert, as the tooling reams out the original
spark plug hole. The outside thread of the insert is about 11/16" dia by about 5/8" tall. The inside of the insert looks
very much like a factory spark plug hole, including the proper tapered seat. The insert gets coated with red Loctite,
and after installing it, you run in a tool that sets a tang into the head, which further mechanically locks the insert
in place. Like I said, this is very unlike a Helicoil or those Volkswagen plug inserts people might be familiar with.
Those who know me, know I'm pretty anal, and am not one to do band-aid fixes. I also recognize a well thought-out
and well enginered product when I see one, and I'm pretty impressed with TimeSert's approach. But I'm not gonna get
all religious about it. If it doesn't float yer boat, oh well...
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2025 vBulletin Solutions Inc. All rights reserved.