Found more boost...WTF?

[SergntMac]

This was originally posted in another thread here, in an inappropriate manner. This was my error and I apologize to everyone affected by my oversight.

This is odd...Freaky odd.

Just recently, I changed my front timing cover, valve covers, upper and lower intake manifolds too, and just for bling. I also replaced a worn out idler pulley and a weak OEM tensioner (This is on my Kenny Brown #1x Marauder S, not my #3 MM).

Once I pulled everything down, I found a lot of serpentine belt wear, and subsequent belt residue in places I cannot normally see. So, I spent considerable time (16 bench hours) making sure everything "serpentine belt-wise" was lined up properly, a different kind of "front end alignment". Fresh Gates 109.5 belt too.

While doing all this cleaning up and blinging, I removed the PHP intake spacer that's been on the car for two years. Dayum...Boost jumped from 16 to 20 PSI and without any tuning. Not only does it climb to 20 PSI, it climbs instantly...WTF?

Mechanically speaking, all I have done is remove the PHP spacer, and (possibly) corrected some serpentine belt drag I wasn't aware of. But dayum, 4 PSI of boost...No snit!

Thus, it may be detonating now (I can't hear that frequency but Zack can) and I'm not going to hammer it again until I get it back on the dyno and retuned. I may give back this 4 PSI, but I want a safe tune too.

This new boost is really freaky like odd, can't help wondering how the PHP spacer plays in this. It may be a great mod for a N/A car, but it may not be so great when supercharged.

Dunno...A fresh SCT tune will tell?

[snowbird]

Mac,

I'm might look a bit novice but : if the spacer take off resistance at the entry, isn't it normal that boost (resistance) raise up ? Your test would then mean that the PHP spacer is indeed effective ? (Like a good free exhaust usually take off 1 or 2 pounds after install).

By the way, i lost your email adress. I would have another small question ...:)

[sailsmen]

Looks like you had belt slippage.

[Tallboy]

Looks like you had belt slippage.

My thoughts exactly. Maybe put the spacer back on and re-test?

But, in any case, it sounds like your time under the hood of ole' #1 was well spent...:beer:

[TooManyFords]

Mac,

Congrats on the newfound power! Now, make me a deal on that spacer, will ya? I need one for my adapter plate between the lower intake and the 6-71 base plate. If you're going to put it on #3, that's ok. Just getting "first dibs" in ... :D

Also, when swapping the front cover, do you have to pull the pan too?

Cheers!

John

[thePunisher]

definite belt slippage.. seen it time and time again especially on the dyno in supercharged applications...that spacer should have no affect on boost pressure.....

[Smokie]

Hey Sarge, belt slippage is a factor but I don't believe it is the whole story. The spacer removal decreased the surface area of the plenum so you have the same specs for everything except plenum volume, same amount of air pushed into a smaller space should increase pressure....that's my opinion. Let us know if power output has been affected.

[thePunisher]

boost doesnt work that way....if it were a head or cam change and the engine now consumed more air then that would make sense but were talking about a very small amount of plenum volume....i personally dont think that spacer should have any effect on boost....remember boost is just a resistance to airflow....

[SergntMac]

Thanks for all the input, gents. IMHO, the added boost was the result of reducing the drag of a misaligned pulley system, which also explains the chaffing of the serpentine belt. In any event, the car is running much better and I believe a retune on a dyno is in order.

John...Haven't made up my mind on using the spacer on #3 yet, and I am not so inclined at this time. How soon do you need it, my friend? And, no, the pan does not have to come off to change the front cover.

Snowbird...e-mail addy is SergntMac@aol.com or you can e-me through my member profile here.

[TooManyFords]

Thanks Mac. I'm still about 2 weeks away from needing it if you are still so inclined. No sweat though, I know Dennis can hook me up if I still need one. <smile>

That's good news on the front cover. Thanks!

Amazing what a new belt and an alignment will do, eh? hehe!

Cheers

John

[magindat]

Mac,

I'm might look a bit novice but : if the spacer take off resistance at the entry, isn't it normal that boost (resistance) raise up ? Your test would then mean that the PHP spacer is indeed effective ? (Like a good free exhaust usually take off 1 or 2 pounds after install).

By the way, i lost your email adress. I would have another small question ...:)

Mac, I agree w/snowbird. I beleive the PHP relieved a restriction. Therefore, if you removed it and caused less back pressure, it would show up on your guage as less boost. As you know Lbs boost does not equal CFM. YOU can make 20 lbs of boost blowing up a baloon, but that's not much CFM!

My opinion FWIW is that the spacer relieves a pressure/turbulence point going to the lower intake manifold. More boost on your guage does not equate to mare air into the motor, just more back pressure on your blower. Also, more back pressure on the blower will shorten it's life to whatever small degree.

This was probly combined with a tiny bit of dry belt slippage.

I got a feeling the dyno will tell you to put the spacer back on. Aside from the slippage possibility, your blower is not putting out any more CFM of air than t was before. It's trying to squeeze the same CFM into a tighter space, thus increasing pressure shown onthe boost guage.

All that said, if the tougher entry into the lower intake is causing back pressure and there's less air as a result, you should find you are running rich.

I am truly curious to know how this works out for you given our previous discussions.

Good luck.

[RF Overlord]

Another vote for the "belt-slippage" theory.

This is from the great MM&FF article on forced induction:

"...screw and centrifugal superchargers compress the air within their housings, whereas Roots blowers force air through the blower and the compressing is done in the manifold."

Since Mac's car has a hair-dryer, changing the volume of the downstream plenum by removing the PHP spacer shouldn't have changed his boost numbers.

*NOMEX suit on*

[SergntMac]

Belt slip or pulley drag, it's all the same to me. the bottom line is more boost, and I need to be careful here.

I'll be getting a dyno-check up March 21 from Jerry Vanderlinde at Sutton Ford to see where I'm at. I still don't have a BAP, and I'm still using 42 lb. injectors, there goes another grand...

[Warpath]

Belt slip is somewhat common with centrifugal blowers and that type of boost level. Some people switch to 8 rib belts and pulleys to eliminate the slip. So, another vote here for slip. I can't imagine that spacer affecting boost that much.

[MikesMerc]

Yep....belt slip. Some slip is good. You want the slippage during moments of abrupt deceleration. When you slam the throttle closed and engine rpm dives, the slippage allows the blower to spin down a little slower and helps keep the blower together. But, it sounds like you had a lot of slip. At 20 psi you really have to have a tight 8 rib set up.

Reminds me of the days when I used to put VHT on my blower belt :)

Anyway, that's free performance Mac. Get your tune to accomodate it and your styling!

[SergntMac]

Okay..."belt slip".

I give, K?

Y'all are just so right. It's all "belt slip". What the Hell was I thinking anyway...Just glad I caught it.

Y'all want me to keep thinking your way when I've got the crap in my hands. How the Hell "belt slip" eats away at the edges and top of a serpentine belt, I just don't get. Must be math and I never got math.

But, I'm educated now, thank you all. I've been told, so, now I know better, thanks! BTW, y'all need, or, maybe "should" check your belt alignment.

Just in case it's not my math...

[Tallboy]

Okay..."belt slip".

I give, K?

Y'all are just so right. It's all "belt slip". What the Hell was I thinking anyway...Just glad I caught it.

Y'all want me to keep thinking your way when I've got the crap in my hands. How the Hell "belt slip" eats away at the edges and top of a serpentine belt, I just don't get. Must be math and I never got math.

But, I'm educated now, thank you all. I've been told, so, now I know better, thanks! BTW, y'all need, or, maybe "should" check your belt alignment.

Just in case it's not my math...

You forgot to say "Thank You".:D

[SergntMac]

Yes, I did.

Thanks!

So...Thank you all who have replied here. Thank you all very much.




How did I do, Chuck?

[MikesMerc]

Okay..."belt slip".

I give, K?

Y'all are just so right. It's all "belt slip". What the Hell was I thinking anyway...Just glad I caught it.

Y'all want me to keep thinking your way when I've got the crap in my hands. How the Hell "belt slip" eats away at the edges and top of a serpentine belt, I just don't get. Must be math and I never got math.

But, I'm educated now, thank you all. I've been told, so, now I know better, thanks! BTW, y'all need, or, maybe "should" check your belt alignment.

Just in case it's not my math...


No need to get worked about it Mac. There are many causes of belt slip....not tight enough, mis-aligned, worn, etc. No doubt based on your description that you had an alignment issue. The alignment issue reduced surface contact of the belt, reducing grip, and creating slip. A blower belt is under tremendous back force when under boost and even a little looseness or mis alignment can cause a lot of slippage.

Think about it this way....drag wouldn't cause less boost. Your belt spins in direct correlation to engine rpm. Your belt spin determines impeller rpm in the blower which in turn dictates cfm air flow. The only way you account for more boost (assuming your motor is consuming the same air volume it was before you touched anything), is by turning the blower faster. The only way this would have happened at any given rpm is that the belt was slipping.

I hope this helps. I don't think anyone here is trying to flame you Mac.

[SergntMac]

Worked up? WTF? Dude...It's over! And, I'm glad I learned about it in time. Jeeze...Y'all know everything about what's going on under my hood...

[Tallboy]

Yes, I did.

Thanks!

So...Thank you all who have replied here. Thank you all very much.




How did I do, Chuck?

You get a Gold Star and a lollipop!!!:lol:

[SergntMac]

Thank you.

[O's Fan Rich]

Worked up? WTF? Dude...It's over! And, I'm glad I learned about it in time. Jeeze...Y'all know everything about what's going on under my hood...
Better then knowing whats going on under your... I'm gonna stop here. There may be some kilt jokes formed.

BTW, Mac, could you explain the method you used aligned the pulleys? I have never done it. I'd imagine it involves shimming and or grinding.

[SergntMac]

BTW, Mac, could you explain the method you used aligned the pulleys? I have never done it. I'd imagine it involves shimming and or grinding. Well, I got lucky here because the first L/M wrench to work on my #1x after Kenny Brown, collected diagrams of what went where. After that, lot's of measuring and installing (or reinstalling) bolts, spacers and shims. Just kept building it out until everything lined up correctly.

Problem is, a lot of different "professionals" have contributted to this car, and I suppose each of them had their own idea of what went where. I suppose that when my enging builder put the car back together in December of '04, he too placed some very similar shims in the wrong places, or missing altogether. Also, incorrect bolts holding the altenator brackets at the wrong angle, likewise A/C and P/S pumps.

The idler pulley bearings went south, and the tensioner was wearing out fast, pulling the belt in two different directions, and pushing it up against the front cover. This is prolly from fighting against each other. I replaced the front cover too, due to a deep gouge from the inside of the belt. This was one of those "time" things, Rich, repeating step after step and over again until it all fell into place. Those sketches were a big help, and a good idea.

[martyo]

Well, I got lucky here because the first L/M wrench to work on my #1x after Kenny Brown, collected diagrams of what went where. After that, lot's of measuring and installing (or reinstalling) bolts, spacers and shims. Just kept building it out until everything lined up correctly.

Problem is, a lot of different "professionals" have contributted to this car, and I suppose each of them had their own idea of what went where. I suppose that when my enging builder put the car back together in December of '04, he too placed some very similar shims in the wrong places, or missing altogether. Also, incorrect bolts holding the altenator brackets at the wrong angle, likewise A/C and P/S pumps.

The idler pulley bearings went south, and the tensioner was wearing out fast, pulling the belt in two different directions, and pushing it up against the front cover. This is prolly from fighting against each other. I replaced the front cover too, due to a deep gouge from the inside of the belt. This was one of those "time" things, Rich, repeating step after step and over again until it all fell into place. Those sketches were a big help, and a good idea.

Counting washers (a/k/a shims) on removal/install -- been there done that.

Ever notice it never goes back quite the same way?

[SergntMac]

Counting washers (a/k/a shims) on removal/install -- been there done that.

Ever notice it never goes back quite the same way? LOL! I have now!

[martyo]

LOL! I have now!

Every tome my car comes apart (pretty much any day with a "Y" in it) we say, "Okay let's count the washers....you know we should have spacers amchined...."

Then reassembly time comes and we are counting washers and eyeballing the set up.

[Zack]

Install the spacers between the blower and the bracket and most of the washers will be eliminated.

[SergntMac]

I took my #1x MM to Sutton Ford in Matteson Il. this AM, for a check up and possible dyno tune. Master Tech Jerry VanDerlinde SCT PHd. is quite the talented tuner with Marauders (and Ford in general), and we are quite lucky to have him in our MidWest area. I'll skip the chit-chat...

Today's fresh numbers, all at @ 6200 RPM;

RWHP: 528.24
RWTQ: 479.00
Boost: 17.66 (absolute)
AFR: As flat as it can get, 11.5 throughout the pull.
Fuel Pressure Delta: 39 Lbs. across the injectors.
Duty Cycle: 70 percent
Diagnosis: This supercharged MM is very healthy!

Now...The chit-chat;

Jerry's baseline pull said I was running lean above 5000 RPM, with the 42 Lb. injectors at 95 percent duty cycle, and he shut everything off before any damage could occur. Damn, right back where I was the last time Jerry tuned my MM, on a dangerous line. Get 1 sour tank of pump gas light on octane and it's a skeet shoot...Pull!

Backing up a moment...Late in the '05 season, I added dual Focus pumps, a Reinhart fuel filter kit, and a modified OEM Fuel Delivery Control Module. Otherwise, my #1x has a stock MM fuel system delivering 39 Lb. of fuel pressure across the injectors at 6200 RPM. This is cool, but the injectors were at 95 percent duty cycle and about exhausted. I knew I was within arm's reach of a disaster, and Jerry's recommendation was to add the Kenny Bell Boost-A-Pump. However, back then there were none to be had, a national back-order.

Order placed, my wait-time slipped into winter and the car went down at the end of season. Over the winter months, I completed the mods and maintenence that started this thread, and discovered 20 Lbs. of boost on tap. As I have said ^ there, I had better make sure I can still safely hit WOT before I do. After sharing my mods and maintenence developments with Jerry, he completed the baseline pull.

He was right last year, and he is right again today. With the added boost, it's all tapped out now, and I hear his BAP suggestion again. I didn't want to hear "larger injectors", "return system", "new rails", or, "dash whatever" fuel lines, I just don't have the cash right now. BAP, I can do.

Well, it's good news this time around. Sutton Ford has 5 BAPs in dealer stock, and I could have my fix in "a few hours if you have the time". Hell yeah I got the time, WTF! and hour later, BAP installed. Three dyno pulls and a test drive after that and I get the numbers you see above.

Whew!

Side note, y'all pay attention!

When any of y'all get your MM dynotuned, insist that the tuner drive your MM himself on the street, after his final tune. Anomalies between performance on the dyno and performance on the street in actual WOT and full load conditions will conceal detonation, and a possible lean condition. Make sure the tune you are buying, is the tune you want to own. If the tuner balks, walk. Otherwise, it's just not worth a new engine.

BTW...I am replacing my AutoMeter boost gauge 'cause 20 PSI on the dial when it's only 17.66 absolute near gave me a heart attack!

[Hotrauder]

Mac, I know this has been a frustrating time for you. I am grateful for your decision to share this and all of the other ups, downs and sideways with this board. You have provided info on hits and misses with all of us and stood tall in your contributions to the store of knowledge we have at our fingertips. :bows: I am happy for your resolution and looking forward to your next contribution here. Thanks Dennis :)

[CRUZTAKER]

Hey Mac...not being much of a mechanic myself...but knowing that the spacer is really easy to put in / take out in 15 minutes or so...

I am really curious if indeed it helps or hinders a blown car.

Would you consider a second dyno run with it re-installed?

[SergntMac]

Thank you, Dennis. Your words are the highest praise I could expect here, but I'm just doing what I think all MM owners should do for one another.

Got a problem? Ask for help.
Find an answer? Share it.
Go exploring and take a stroll down a dead end?
Go back to the main road and re-direct oncoming traffic away from the disappointment.

I'm having fun (most of the time), and I hope you are too.

[TooManyFords]

I figure I've only got a couple more weeks before the new S/C monster is ready to be dialed in. I should call over and reserve one of those BAP's from Sutton right away!

John

[RF Overlord]

I second what Hotrauder said^^^

From the very inception of MM.net, Mac has been on the front lines, testing mods ranging from Dennis's Cobra exhaust to underdrive pulleys; from Denso spark plugs to intake spacers, even to the point of developing the perhaps never-to-be-seen-again Z&M control arms, one of the best handling mods ever for this car. Dyno time ain't cheap, yet Mac has always shared his findings with us for free, both the good, and perhaps more importantly, the bad. Many of my parts-buying decisions for the Blackbird were directly influenced by info Mac provided to us all, and I know my car would NOT be what it is today without his input.

[snowbird]

Thank you, Dennis. Your words are the highest praise I could expect here, but I'm just doing what I think all MM owners should do for one another.

Got a problem? Ask for help.
Find an answer? Share it.
Go exploring and take a stroll down a dead end?
Go back to the main road and re-direct oncoming traffic away from the disappointment.

I'm having fun (most of the time), and I hope you are too.
^^^^^^^^What he said !! ^^^^^^

[RCSignals]

Another old thread.....

I was searching for something else and came across this. It's a good read with some humour, if you have the time.

[Stranger in the Black Sedan]

I don't have the time (I'm at work) and I read it anyway. Woopsie!