blue smoke at start-up

[Bruce Wayne]

Oh No! Just noticed the dreaded blue smoke when I fired up my MM yesterday, this is after letting it rest for two days, it is my daily driver. I really don't need this, and I am really bummed out. How bad is this, what is it caused by, and how can I cure this without spending a fortune? Any suggestions would be appreciated Car has 65,000 km

[Marauder2005]

Let me guess you have a 2003 Marauder 300a/300b?

Most likely dealer will tell you its normal, so its best you act like it is.

Its what I did :(

[MENINBLK]

Oh No! Just noticed the dreaded blue smoke when I fired up my MM yesterday, this is after letting it rest for two days, it is my daily driver. I really don't need this, and I am really bummed out. How bad is this, what is it caused by, and how can I cure this without spending a fortune? Any suggestions would be appreciated Car has 65,000 km

This is normal.
My 2004 does the same after it sits for a few days.
When you get the blue smoke from sitting overnight,
then you need to start worrying.

[SergntMac]

Don't get me wrong here, I'm not making excuses. Just sharing my viewpoint.

No one (to my knowledge) has ever nailed it down, but the best of guesses is that once at rest, engine oil leaks down through valve seals. I've been working with Mike Hally of High Flow Heads Inc., who has done a lot of design work with Ford.

Mike engineers and produces racing heads, predominately Ford products, and he told me that in his opinion, it's a wear issue with the guides and seals, and Ford is well aware of it, however the guides and seals are still within engineering/performance specs. He also believes the 5W20 oil Ford suggests, is too light for our high reving 4V DOHC design.

Mike also said that he has discussed this with Ford engineers a number of times, and he's disappointed with the OEM tolerances and specs. This problem seems to be rather common acrosss the spectrum of Ford products using the InTech built engines, and Ford won't consider redesign due to R&D and manfacturing costs. They also won't declare any oil consumption "abnormal" until you consume more than 1 qt of oil in under 1000 miles. So, we're racing against the warranty expriation of 36K before we get Ford's attention, and by then, it's usually too late. Doesn't seem to matter much anyway, if you get a warranty replacement, it's still the same design, tolerances and specs, you're just starting over.

In Mike's opinion, "as long as it doesn't affect performance, it's going to be "characteristic" of Ford mod motor engines, as it was for Mopar products of the late '60 and early '70s." I remember that, a little "puff" was considered "normal" back then too.

Just my .02c, carry on gents.

[David Morton]

CONGRATULATIONS! You've are the starter of the 1000th thread on this topic! :D

There's no prize. :( If it's still under warranty, tell the dealer about it.

There's two things that can result from this. 1) longer valve guide life, or 2) valve guide failure.

First, the cause of the smoke is oil seeping down the valve guide getting on the head of the valve. This is not of itself a bad thing. What can be bad is one of the ways it might be getting there. (1) If it's because the valve guide oil seal is loose, letting a little too much oil get by, that's actually a good thing. The guides will last longer. BUT, (2) if the guide is loose, then it is in the beginning stages of failure.

If it has to sit a couple of days to produce this effect, I wouldn't worry about it. But if you park it for twenty minutes and you get blue smoke, the guides are shot.

[Marauder2005]

Don't get me wrong here, I'm not making excuses. Just sharing my viewpoint.

No one (to my knowledge) has ever nailed it down, but the best of guesses is that once at rest, engine oil leaks down through valve seals. I've been working with Mike Hally of High Flow Heads Inc., who has done a lot of design work with Ford.

Mike engineers and produces racing heads, predominately Ford products, and he told me that in his opinion, it's a wear issue with the guides and seals, and Ford is well aware of it, however the guides and seals are still within engineering/performance specs. He also believes the 5W20 oil Ford suggests, is too light for our high reving 4V DOHC design.

Mike also said that he has discussed this with Ford engineers a number of times, and he's disappointed with the OEM tolerances and specs. This problem seems to be rather common acrosss the spectrum of Ford products using the InTech built engines, and Ford won't consider redesign due to R&D and manfacturing costs. They also won't declare any oil consumption "abnormal" until you consume more than 1 qt of oil in under 1000 miles. So, we're racing against the warranty expriation of 36K before we get Ford's attention, and by then, it's usually too late. Doesn't seem to matter much anyway, if you get a warranty replacement, it's still the same design, tolerances and specs, you're just starting over.

In Mike's opinion, "as long as it doesn't affect performance, it's going to be "characteristic" of Ford mod motor engines, as it was for Mopar products of the late '60 and early '70s." I remember that, a little "puff" was considered "normal" back then too.

Just my .02c, carry on gents.

Mac, after your friends advice im guessing you do not use 5/20 oil. If thats

the case what oil do you use?

[Breadfan]

Here's mine, mine recently started doing the same thing. http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?t=26197&highlight=time+smoke

Go figure, as soon as it started, it appears to have stopped. My car has not smoked on startup in the last few weeks.

For a few days it was doing it everytime after about 8hrs of sitting. It happened right out of the blue - err, no pun intended.

It stopped right out of the blue too.

You may want to try servicing your PCV system, I've heard that sometimes clogged or malfunctioning PCV can cause this symptom.

Otherwise I don't think there's a clear answer. If it's the heads, its the valve guides most likely are leaking. Valve seal possibly. If you don't smoke whle running or idling then it's not piston rings or blowby.

The issue appears to be that the valve guides leak a very small amount of oil thats ontop of the head after shutdown and over the course of a day or so enough oil seeps by that upon startup you burn the small amount of oil collected in the combustion chamber.

Doesn't seem to affect normal operation.

I did not receive any confirmation that this was the end of my heads. It's hard for me to find that info - if this is a problem, how long will the car run normally and is it terminal, if so, how long?

Good luck!

[RF Overlord]

How bad is thisIf it's just a puff that's mostly noticeable from behind the car, then not to worry. OTOH, if your neighbours think the area is being fogged for mosquitos every time you start the car, then you're SOL.
what is it caused byyou've already gotten that answer^^^
and how can I cure this without spending a fortune?You can't...some cars do it, some don't. Some people had the heads replaced under warrany and it stopped; others had the heads replaced only to have the problem return later on. As Mac said^^^, if you get a replacement, you're not fixing it, you're just starting over.

[Pat]

I noticed my 04 emiting a blue smoke puff at start up a few months ago. Nothing consistent, just once in awaile after sitting overnight. I had that clutch in my breast too, but saw that it wasn't a progressive thing and after a heart to heart talk with Silverback, all seems well. The car has 20K miles.

If it puffs now and again I give the car a stern look and wag my finger.

[SergntMac]

So much to reply to, can't do the quote thingy.

David...Do you know Mike Hally? You almost quoted him word for word.

Marauder 2005...Straight up 5W30 Quaker State, buck 79 per quart, changed every 2000-2500 miles. LOL...That's just me. BTW, anyone want to buy "seasoned" oil? LOL!

Breadfan, Pat and others...Ocassional "blue smoke", and not on a regular basis seems to indicate that only one or two valve guides/seals may be affected. When you shut off the engine, some of the valves are closed, others are not, and it will be different every time you shut down. Therefore, it's the luck of the draw, 1 out of 32 chances that one particular valve stops open, even partially. Makes sense to me.

[MainEngDwarf]

Ok now it's my turn. I've had the same problem for over 10,000 miles. When I lived in NY the dealer replaced the pcv system the passenger side valve cover and the seals in the passenger side head. No luck there. Since then I've moved to Virginia Beach and picked myself up an everyday driver. So last month I took The Marauder to the ford dealer and they agreed to look at it. There happens to be a good 4V mechanic where I took it. He noticed that not only was it at start up but that it would occasionally puff some blue while running. He got ford to agree to replaceing the rings and rod bearings,(also a good excuse to tear the engine down and check it out). What was found was "soft" rings in at least 6 cylinders and the ring gaps lined up in at least 3 cylinders. When I looked at it there was evidence of oil getting past the rings in 7 of 8 cylinders. Since the dealership can't seem to find there tools to work on the heads they were sent to a reputable machine shop where all the guides and seals were replaced. I've taken photos of the engine and heads and will post some photos when I get them developed. The engine is going back together this week and I should have the car back early next week. Persistance does eventually pay off!!! :2thumbs: :poke:

[Marauderjack]

Mine has puffed a bit at startup off and on for 2 years but not at all consistant??:confused: I first thought it was temperature related in that below 45* or so it would do it but this winter on colder days it was fine!!:argue:

I have never had oil consumption changing every 5K miles and the car runs fine...NO TICKY!!:bows:

My personal feeling is not to tear into it unless it has other symtoms.....seldom can a dealership "Wrench" build a motor as good as the factory and you may end up with more "Worms" than you want!!:eek:

Marauderjack:burnout:

[MainEngDwarf]

I figure thats what the warrentee is for.....get it right or keep tryin till you do.:D

[frdwrnch]

Mine has done this periodically since new. Like previously stated it has no pattern. It interested me enough to perform an oil consumption test and there was no detectable oil loss over several 3000 mile intervals. Obviously it's burning some, but I don't feel it's indicative of a problem or I'd fix it. If anybody remarks about it I tell 'em, "It's Hi Performance Smoke! Line it up and I'll Show Ya!"

[SergntMac]

If anybody remarks about it I tell 'em, "It's Hi Performance Smoke! Line it up and I'll Show Ya!" Exactly what the HEMI/426 Wedge owners declared back in 1968-1970. No one busted their balls...

[Todd TCE]

Happens on the race car's SHO motor all the time. No worries mate.

[David Morton]

David...Do you know Mike Hally? You almost quoted him word for word.No, but this isn't the first time I've come up on this problem (IF you can call it that).

Back in the 80's, Chevrolet and other GM products with the 350's and 4.3L V6's started producing them without any valve seals on the exhausts, NONE AT ALL!(?) There was a small o-ring on the top of the valve stem that went between the retainer and the stem effectively making the retainer an umbrella of sorts. Any good technician knows that the intake valve stems and guides are under constant vacuum and must have a seal to keep them from sucking huge amounts of oil into the cylinders ("smokes at idle") and that the exhausts are under pressure all the time ("exhaust back pressure") and, on a running engine, don't even need a seal at all.

So here's what the engineers were telling us then.

In the old days before PCV, exhaust valves got a seal to keep huge amounts of exhaust gas from pressuriseing the crankcase. And in those days exhaust valve guides didn't last long or were made of expensive alloys to take the punishment of almost no lubrication.

It was a while before some wiz-kid straight out of engineering school figured out with PCV they could use umbrellas that let oil splash up against the exhaust valve stems so the guides would last longer, much longer.

So, old school (very old school) diagnosis for this complaint (blue smoke on start-up) was exhaust valve guides going bad. A guide had to get pretty bad before it would hurt the seal enough to drip oil on the stem and down onto the valve. But on the new design theory, some oil dripping down the stem, through the guide and onto the valve was normal, even on a new engine, and showed good lubrication of the guide. Back in '88 warranty was telling us to put on a set of those old fashioned seals on the exhaust guides when we had the "complaint" and ship it. I never had a comeback, but I often wondered whether we were really doing them a favor or not. We were certainly cutting down the service life of the guides.

And one other thing about your "intermittent" theory. It doesn't matter if the valve is closed or not or whether the oil makes it into the combustion chamber or not. It's still on the valve and in the exhaust port. The minute the engine fires up, fire, really hot fire is gonna burn whatever is there. It doesn't have to get inside the CC to make blue smoke. Another little sidebar is that it's only doing it until the cat heats up anyways. Catalytic convertors cover a lot of sinful motors today that burn lots of oil and except for when it's cold, don't make any smoke at all, at the exhaust pipe.

So the engineers ended up telling us that an engine that burns a little oil will last a lot longer than one that doesn't burn any.

And I believe them.