Can this be the beginning of the end???

[BillyGman]

The big three are clearly in some serious HP wars, and that's kinda cool, but there's something that really scares me about that....

the last time there were HP wars amongst the new car manufactures that was as intense as these current ones are gearing up to be, the government found a way to step in and put a stop to it. And do you remember what means they used to do that? It was gasoline. They reduced the octane to a point where the auto makers could no longer produce powerful engines, and all of us suffered for the next 20 years with slow street cars.

And with the rumors and reports floating around now of the potential for $5 per gallon gasoline prices, I'm kinda worried that the government is up to it's old tricks, and will once again use gasoline as a means to end these HP wars, and that will usher in the flood of electric cars and hybrid cars.

In the 70's they used gasoline to end the HP wars by making it mandatory to reduce lead which ofcourse was being used to keep the octane high. But now, since there isn't any more lead being used in pump gas, they cannot use that trick again, so instead they're going to use the sheer cost of gasoline by allowing the prices to go so sky high, that nobody will be able to afford to drive fast cars any more. I hope that I'm all wrong about this, but this is beginning to look real scary for us hi-perf car enthusiasts. It looks like BIG government is about to step in once again to slow the street cars down just as they did back in the 70's. this is not good!!

[ex00p71]

SHUT UP! Don't give them any more ideas!!!!

[BillyGman]

SHUT UP! Don't give them any more ideas!!!!Unfortunately, I think they're way ahead of us, and they don't need to read these forums to figure this out, nor to notice the HP wars either. Just look at how the gas prices have begun to soar over the past two years every time the weather begins to get warm in the majority of the US. Right when all the fast cars begin to come out for the first time of the year in about 75% of the U.S......... Do you think that's coincidental? I dunno. Like I said, I hope that I'm wrong, but I dunno.

[ex00p71]

My post was just a joke pretty much. It's not because the fast cars are coming out in spring time, it's because all the cars are, nice weather=more driving and travelling.

[BillyGman]

It's not because the fast cars are coming out in spring time, it's because all the cars are, nice weather=more driving and travelling.Yeah, I thought of that too. That might be the reason, and maybe the timing for the price increases are simply about oil company greed. Who knows? Another thing too is that I remember the last time that the gas prices went over $3 per gallon, there were rumors flying around then too about it heading up to $5 per gallon, but that never happened, and the prices went back down to about $2.30 per gallon. So let's hope that happens again this time around.

[Shaft333]

Fast cars aren't the problem. It's all the light trucks everyone is getting for their daily commute.

At least where I live and commute light trucks are very prevalent. I'm guessing nearly 40% of the vehicles I see during my commute are light trucks.

I do see your point. Fast cars (better qualified as Awesome V8 powered cars), whether they are the problem or not, will suffer.

[O's Fan Rich]

Alcohol... alcohol... alcohol.
Drink enough and you'll forget all about gas prices!

I believe it takes twice the volume to equal the output of gasoline. But down the road it may be the high HP fuel of choice. Either that or we will all be ion a forum discussing how we can reduce the ohms to allow for higher motor output..... puke.

[Bradley G]

If gas $ increased at the rate of Inflation/ cost of living,
It would be far more than five dollars a gallon.
Coffee and water co$t more than premium fuel.
I wanna do a burnout!:burnout:

[Rider90]

I wanna do a burnout!:burnout:
That's the spirit!

[KillJoy]

Gas pricing is about greed. As I was flipping throught the channels last evening, one of the Manjor Networks had an Executive from one of the Major Oil Comanies (Exxon, I think), and the interviewer asked if they even considered lowering proces. The Exec replied saying (rought quote here) "No. We have share holders to take care of. We are in business to make money."

KillJoy

[Rider90]

Gas pricing is about greed. As I was flipping throught the channels last evening, one of the Manjor Networks had an Executive from one of the Major Oil Comanies (Exxon, I think), and the interviewer asked if they even considered lowering proces. The Exec replied saying (rought quote here) "No. We have share holders to take care of. We are in business to make money."

KillJoy
Look's like it's time to move my stocks...

[KillJoy]

No kidding. If I am not mistaken, NO OTHER industry has ever posted Record Years, for so long, and with so much profit.

KillJoy

[jerrym3]

Insurance costs and pollution devices also helped to kill the horsepower wars.

I hate paying higher prices, but why blame Exxon? They're in the business of making money, not subsidizing the energy glutton that we are. If we weren't willing/able to pay it, they could not get the price per gallon that they do.

Do we fault the auto companies for pushing Explorers, Expeditions, Hummers (please, anybody, tell me what purpose a Hummer serves unless you're fighting the Taliban on the way to Home Depot?) instead of fuel efficient cars?

Are we going to tell our bosses that the raise he/she just gave us is too big, so, please boss, "take some back for the good of the company"?

We wanted bigger, faster vehicles and bigger and bigger houses further from the city. (People commute by car into NY and North Jersey from areas that were weekend getaway spots in the 50s. Many are driving their SUVs with one single driver on board.)

Mt sister-in-law drives an Explorer. The closest she will ever come to going off road is if she misses the turn into her driveway. Say the word "station wagon", and you immediately get the "not cool" look. She's in her early 50s, and she's worrying about looking cool?

We also have this fantastic network of roads (The Interstate Highway system) which has greatly fueled the 40-50 mile commute. Without it, I doubt if the long commute into work would be acceptable by many.

We got what we all wanted, and we're paying for it.

(PS: I do not work for an oil company.)

[David Morton]

... Either that or we will all be on a forum discussing how we can reduce the ohms to allow for higher motor output..... puke.Oh pooh. You (and everybody else that's been listening to the petroleum industry myths) have displayed a popular misconception about electromotive power. That it's weak and effemminate. It's not.

For over seventy years our society has been using electromotive power to move freight. Today, one diesel-electric locomotive can sport 6000 HP.

Click here (http://travel.howstuffworks.com/diesel-locomotive.htm) for an article about how diesel-electric locomotives work.

In the aforementioned article, the passenger train locomotive uses a 3200 HP two-stroke diesel engine to generate up to 4700 amps of current with 560 kilowatts of power. It alone weighs 270,000 pounds. I make that to be 84.375 pounds per HP. It can motivate the whole passenger train to speeds of 110 mph, and the other cars can easily outweigh the locomotive by a factor of ten. So adjust that figure to over 800 lbs per HP. Now...

(Can you see where I'm headed with this?)

At the advertised curb weight of 4195 lbs. and running 302 HP we are currently at 13.89 lbs. per HP in our cars, stock.

Now, the locomotive is no drag racer, but that's by design, not because it isn't a capable and powerful performer. It has steel wheels, and doesn't get very good traction. Using those same figures, our car could have a 50 HP diesel engine driving a generator making electricity and have the same power to weight ratio.

I think we could go very fast, very quickly on those figures with some Nitto's on the back.

[gpfarrell]

Oil companies actually aren't that profitable (Flame suit on!)

If you compare the amount of capital tied up in the oil industry to the amount of revenue that capital generates, it's nothing special.

Many, many other industries have a much higher return on shareholder's equity.

The Exxon quote on the news was wildly out of context. I watched the interview with Matt Laur on the Today Show, and the CEO of Exxon provided clear explanations that 1) oil prices are set on the commodities exchanges 2)Exxon gas stations only provide 8% of retail gas sales, so their pricing influence would be very low and 3) Exxon's role is to supply a product. The market sets the price.

The Media has a very clear agenda: create news. I was very impressed that the CEO was willing to be interviewed knowing that the editors would clip his remarks into a misleading soundbite.

I'd much rather have the opportunity to pay $5 a gallon than stand in line trying to get gas at $2.50 a gallon from a station that doesn't have any.

[ckadiddle]

I'd much rather have the opportunity to pay $5 a gallon than stand in line trying to get gas at $2.50 a gallon from a station that doesn't have any.
I am just old enough to remember having to figure out if it was the right day for me to go and get in line to buy gas. I will be car-tripping on vacation around the state later this month, so I am hoping high gas prices keep a few folks off the road.

[STLR FN]

... snip....The Media has a very clear agenda: create news. I was very impressed that the CEO was willing to be interviewed knowing that the editors would clip his remarks into a misleading soundbite. The media would never do a thing like manipulate the news.

[DEFYANT]

I will not be fuel - priced out of my car.

Period.

[DeadVic]

I do work in the oil industry. Yes, we're making money but after a long down cycle. It's all about supply and demand. Demand is up and supply is down therefore prices are up. The margins for a well run company have been there for the taking all along. There are two barriers to unlocking earnings in this business, people and equipment.

One problem is people cost in our sector of the oil business. You have to keep some people during even the nastiest downturn. That results in tight margins during downturn. when the upturn comes you staff up and charge more for our services.

Plus, you have all that equipment to payoff from the last upcycle. this equipment has a 20 -30 year life span and it has to be amortized. the last downcycle nearly killed us. now were humming along. hopefully we've learned from our mistakes last time(s) and have grown into this uptick appropriatley. Time will tell.

Is there gouging at your local station. yes, at some. But gasoline is a competitive business. take a drive and look around at the mom and pops. they keep the prices down.

The real bottleneck in the country is from a lack of gasoline refineries. Learn more by reading abou Valero (I do NOT work for Valero) and what their doing. This should help clear up some misconceptions.

[gpfarrell]

The media would never do a thing like manipulate the news.

You're right. And the #6 team will never win the Superbowl!

[Hotrauder]

Thanks guys for blowing a little clean air into this frey. the oil companies don't set their cost for petroleum and they don't control their selling price. You and I do. They can't sell what we won't buy. Oil stocks have not been a good investment for your capitol over most of my lifetime. An 8% return on investment is lower than average for the mfg. segment of the economy. We are correct to be worried about the pandering politicians who manage to screw up everything everytime they get involved in the market place for OUR own good.(read that their own good) Dennis:cool:

[STLR FN]

You're right. And the #6 team will never win the Superbowl!And who might you be talkin about? :rolleyes:

[Rider90]

I heard from T.V, and T.V. never lies to me, some man in a suit say that there is no possible way we can rely on our current gasoline mixture in 20 years. Vehicles are being made to run on different fuels as we speak.

So buy it while you still can, in 20 years I'll have no regrets paying top dollar for the rides this Marauder takes me on.

[Krytin]

Alcohol... alcohol... alcohol.
Drink enough and you'll forget all about gas prices!

.

With some seal material changes and some re-tuning - we can run on alcohol!!!

[BillyGman]

I will not be fuel - priced out of my car.

Period. What if you suddenly find yourself paying $5 per gallon? If you luv your car as much as I LUV mine, that might not make you sell it, but how often would you be driving it with gas being $5 per gallon? I mean just think about it.... we pay $55 to fill our gas tanks now, and that's tough enough, but at $5 per gallon, it would be costing us $90 for a fill up!! How many days out of the month do you think you'll be driving your S/Ced Marauder with 4.10 gears when you have to pay $90 for a fill up??? I know one thing is for certain, if the prices ever go that high, I can forget about my S/Ced Marauder being a daily driver.

[Rider90]

What if you suddenly find yourself paying $5 per gallon? If you luv your car as much as I LUV mine, that might not make you sell it, but how often would you be driving it with gas being $5 per gallon? I mean just think about it.... we pay $55 to fill our gas tanks now, and that's tough enough, but at $5 per gallon, it would be costing us $90 for a fill up!! How many days out of the month do you think you'll be driving your S/Ced Marauder with 4.10 gears when you have to pay $90 for a fill up???
Every single day. At $150 I might start driving slower... but until then, "Light em' up!"

[Krytin]

.

The real bottleneck in the country is from a lack of gasoline refineries. Learn more by reading abou Valero (I do NOT work for Valero) and what their doing. This should help clear up some misconceptions.

Yep - can't make it fast enough to keep up w/growing demand.
Just try and build a new refinery anywhere and see how popular that is!

[BillyGman]

Every single day. At $150 I might start driving slower... but until then, "Light em' up!" Well then you either don't have a mortgage to pay like most of us do, or your very wealthy.

[Rider90]

Well then you either don't have a mortgage to pay like most of us do, or your very wealthy.
That's right I don't. I change my answer to $200 a tank...

Rock on! :burnout:

[BillyGman]

That's right I don't. I change my answer to $200 a tank...

Rock on! :burnout: More power to ya bro, but my point is that you're certainly not in the majority of hi-perf car enthusiasts, and some day you will be paying a mortgage like most of us have to, and with gas at those prices, you can kiss your hi-perf cars good-bye. And in the meantime, your car would be practically the only hi-perf car on the street anywhere you go.

[Rider90]

More power to ya bro, but my point is that you're certainly not in the majority of hi-perf car enthusiasts, and some day you will be paying a mortgage like most of us have to, and with gas at those prices, you can kiss your hi-perf cars good-bye. And in the meantime, your car would be practically the only hi-perf car on the street anywhere you go.
Billy I don't think you realize my priorities here :) I'll leave it at that. C'mon gas prices...

[BillyGman]

Billy I don't think you realize my priorities here :) I'll leave it at that. C'mon gas prices...Yeah, apparently I'm missing something. But whatever......

[hitchhiker]

Until our currently corrupt government returns to doing its duty of protecting the American people's future instead of catering to the corporate and wealthy only, our industries and with them our jobs will continue to disappear.

An a major employer and contributor to our society our domestic auto indistry should be protected to some extent. Not completely, but enough to allow it to recover from its current funk.

I advocate an immediate 50 percent tariff on all foreign labor and products for a period of five years.

Enough is enough.

Regards,

Dave

[BillyGman]

I advocate an immediate 50 percent tariff on all foreign labor and products for a period of five years.

Enough is enough.

Regards,

DaveLOL....actually Dave, I think that's the first political thing you've ever stated here that I completely agree with. Problem is that the foreign country loving liberals won't allow any terriffs like that. But I do agree that's one of the things we need here in the U.S.

[RR|Suki]

LOL....actually Dave, I think that's the first political thing you've ever stated here that I completely agree with. Problem is that the foreign country loving liberals won't allow any terriffs like that. But I do agree that's one of the things we need here in the U.S.

We even have that in little Jamaica, we have tarrifs on EVERYTHING that is imported, and I am talking heavy weights. Hell the importation tax on a vehichle is near 200%... now granted that's a little extreeme, but ya... it happens. But in all honesty though we aren't doin too bad with prices so far. Hopefully it holds out... there's always that 8-4 clyinder deal that gets like 34mpg on the freeway... Too bad I hate the Motecarlo :burnout:

[SergntMac]

Yeah, he's coming around...

[jerrym3]

Got to be real careful on defining what is and what isn't considered "foreign". (What about Fords being built in Mexicao or Canada?)

[KillJoy]

Most of the electronics in "Domestic" vehicles are from over seas.

KillJoy

[Haggis]

Got to be real careful on defining what is and what isn't considered "foreign". (What about Fords being built in Mexicao or Canada?)
If the 'Home Office' does not speak english as it's first language or the dollar is being coverted to another currency.

[hitchhiker]

Most of the electronics in "Domestic" vehicles are from over seas.

KillJoy

Well... That too would change under a 50 percent tariff.

[BillyGman]

Well... That too would change under a 50 percent tariff.Exactly! Yes it would. Right on brutha!!! A tarriff of that magnatude would help to bring jobs back over here. So why aren't there any politicians on either side of the isle in any hurry to do this? Because both sides of the isle are hopelessly corrupt, and are undoubteldy being paid off by somebody, and in essence they're selling out their own country because of the LUV of money. I cannot offer a better suggestion here than you have Dave. It's a bit off-topic, but that's quite alright as far as I'm concerned since it's an excellent point you've made.

[hitchhiker]

Exactly! Yes it would. Right on brutha!!! A tarriff of that magnatude would help to bring jobs back over here. So why aren't there any politicians on either side of the isle in any hurry to do this? Because both sides of the isle are hopelessly corrupt, and are undoubteldy being paid off by somebody, and in essence they're selling out their own country because of the LUV of money. I cannot offer a better suggestion here than you have Dave. It's a bit off-topic, but that's quite alright as far as I'm concerned since it's an excellent point you've made.

When is 'Politician Season'?

You could put that 50 cal. to good use!

:D

[BillyGman]

When is 'Politician Season'?

You could put that 50 cal. to good use!

:D:eek: :eek: :eek: :uzi:

[gpfarrell]

Until our currently corrupt government returns to doing its duty of protecting the American people's future instead of catering to the corporate and wealthy only, our industries and with them our jobs will continue to disappear.
Dave

Uh, Bush's tax cuts have led to a huge increase in taxes collected from the wealthy. Refer to page A14 of today's Wall Street Journal... capital gains receipts have climbed 79% since tax rates were reduced in 2003. Dividend taxes collected are up 35% since 2002.

Taxes are friction to an economy. Increasing them slows the whole thing down.

Oh, and you won't find many times when a higher percentage of Americans are working, and not at low paying jobs either. Referring to the same paper, in 2001 40.8% of Americans earned more than $50,000 a year. By 2004 that had climbed to 44.2%.

I'd rather talk cars here and get back to "Will high gas prices put an end to high-performance car sales", but you're continual unsupported rants keep dragging us into this.

I realize our economy isn't perfect, but distorting it won't improve it.

Peace.

[MikesMerc]

I hate paying higher prices, but why blame Exxon? They're in the business of making money, not subsidizing the energy glutton that we are. If we weren't willing/able to pay it, they could not get the price per gallon that they do.

Do we fault the auto companies for pushing Explorers, Expeditions, Hummers (please, anybody, tell me what purpose a Hummer serves unless you're fighting the Taliban on the way to Home Depot?) instead of fuel efficient cars?

Are we going to tell our bosses that the raise he/she just gave us is too big, so, please boss, "take some back for the good of the company"?

We wanted bigger, faster vehicles and bigger and bigger houses further from the city. (People commute by car into NY and North Jersey from areas that were weekend getaway spots in the 50s. Many are driving their SUVs with one single driver on board.)

We got what we all wanted, and we're paying for it.



Well said by someone who understands where the problem really is!




Oil companies actually aren't that profitable (Flame suit on!)

If you compare the amount of capital tied up in the oil industry to the amount of revenue that capital generates, it's nothing special.

Many, many other industries have a much higher return on shareholder's equity.

The Exxon quote on the news was wildly out of context. I watched the interview with Matt Laur on the Today Show, and the CEO of Exxon provided clear explanations that 1) oil prices are set on the commodities exchanges 2)Exxon gas stations only provide 8% of retail gas sales, so their pricing influence would be very low and 3) Exxon's role is to supply a product. The market sets the price.

The Media has a very clear agenda: create news. I was very impressed that the CEO was willing to be interviewed knowing that the editors would clip his remarks into a misleading soundbite.

I'd much rather have the opportunity to pay $5 a gallon than stand in line trying to get gas at $2.50 a gallon from a station that doesn't have any.

WOW! Yet another awesome post from someone who understands the energy industry. :beer:

There is hope for this forum yet!!




I advocate an immediate 50 percent tariff on all foreign labor and products for a period of five years.


And this is about the stupidest thing I've read so far this year. A perfect example of someone who is completely void of any understanding of the world economy. It frightens me to think that some folks are so far in the dark about the economy that they beleive this would work. The only thing this would create are huge shortages of products and materials, rocketing inflation, trade war, and recession. I think we are all stupider for having even read that "idea."

When are the protectionist folks gonna get thier collective heads out of the sand and realize we are in a GLOBAL economy. This loss of manufacturing has been going on for 200 years already. Nothing new here. Textiles went bye bye over 150 years ago. Where have all you protectionists been?

Bottom line is that the American public demands the lowest prices. To meet that companys must look for the cheaper source to stay in business. If you have to blame someone, blame the American public with their out of control buying habits. They should be shopping at thier local mom and pop shops instead of wal mart.

No amount of government legislation is going to reverse the melding of the global economy.

[MikesMerc]

Uh, Bush's tax cuts have led to a huge increase in taxes collected from the wealthy. Refer to page A14 of today's Wall Street Journal... capital gains receipts have climbed 79% since tax rates were reduced in 2003. Dividend taxes collected are up 35% since 2002.

Taxes are friction to an economy. Increasing them slows the whole thing down.

Oh, and you won't find many times when a higher percentage of Americans are working, and not at low paying jobs either. Referring to the same paper, in 2001 40.8% of Americans earned more than $50,000 a year. By 2004 that had climbed to 44.2%.

I'd rather talk cars here and get back to "Will high gas prices put an end to high-performance car sales", but you're continual unsupported rants keep dragging us into this.

I realize our economy isn't perfect, but distorting it won't improve it.

Peace.

Another great post! I'm honored to share the forums with you.

The idea of the thread was great until the paranoid, tin foil hat wearing, conspiracy theory mongers showed up to stump their uneducated protectionist rhetoric. I'll leave it to you to battle with these wizards of economic theory :D

EDIT - By the way, I doubt the higher prices will kill the HP wars directly. However, indirectly I do see a long term shift away from performance to more basic transportation through shift in product mix. Ford has already gone green. That said, technology has given us an advantage in maintaining decent levels of performance while being more efficient (displacement on demand, etc,etc).

[hitchhiker]

Uh, Bush's tax cuts have led to a huge increase in taxes collected from the wealthy. Refer to page A14 of today's Wall Street Journal... capital gains receipts have climbed 79% since tax rates were reduced in 2003. Dividend taxes collected are up 35% since 2002.

Taxes are friction to an economy. Increasing them slows the whole thing down.

Oh, and you won't find many times when a higher percentage of Americans are working, and not at low paying jobs either. Referring to the same paper, in 2001 40.8% of Americans earned more than $50,000 a year. By 2004 that had climbed to 44.2%.

I'd rather talk cars here and get back to "Will high gas prices put an end to high-performance car sales", but you're continual unsupported rants keep dragging us into this.

I realize our economy isn't perfect, but distorting it won't improve it.

Peace.

Great job of repeating GOP propaganda. Bill O'Reilly and Rush would be proud of you.

Your own citation, from the WSJ, confirms that the wealthy became quite a bit wealthier since 2003 while most of us have lost a lot of ground in terms of real earnings.

I can't believe that after 6 years of failure by the current regime, some people still believe this @#$%!

It is very sad to see our country's leaders committing economic suicide on our behalf so that the very few can add to their already obnoxious riches.

By 'Beginning of the End', the thread topic, I see to the survival of American auto industry and people's jobs both inside and outside of the auto industry as the serious isue here. Those with the funds to buy and operate will always have performance options.

Therefore I am quite on-topic, seeing the bigger picture.

If the topic was intended to be limited to the availability of performance vehicles, a more limited topic might have been presented, IMHO.

As usual, my posts are never to offend, just participate in in discussion.

Sometimes discussions don't always go in the direction we would like.

God Bless America.

:D

[hitchhiker]

Another great post! I'm honored to share the forums with you.

The idea of the thread was great until the paranoid, tin foil hat wearing, conspiracy theory mongers showed up to stump their uneducated protectionist rhetoric. I'll leave it to you to battle with these wizards of economic theory :D

EDIT - By the way, I doubt the higher prices will kill the HP wars directly. However, indirectly I do see a long term shift away from performance to more basic transportation through shift in product mix. Ford has already gone green. That said, technology has given us an advantage in maintaining decent levels of performance while being more efficient (displacement on demand, etc,etc).

Uneducated my a$$.

What you really wish for is a dumb population, without the ability to spot the lies and deceipt, totally accepting of whatever propaganda the GOP chose to broadcast.

Nothing like a little more typical GOP hate speech against anyone who doesn't fall for the propaganda.

Atta boy... Attack the truth wherever it appears by attempting to smear the messenger.

re: Protectionist rhetiric:

Would you have us be the only country in the whole world to not protect our people's jobs and future opportunities?

Are there any limits to the lies, distortions, and personal attacks some people will perpetuate in the war against truth and the American middle class?

The performance offerings by the domestic automakers in the last few years will indeed be their last gasp unless Americans change their ways and resume buying domestic vehicles again. A tariff would make American vehicles American again and protect American people's jobs.

Do you remember all those other makes that produced stunning vehicles just before they expired. Hudson, Packard, Studebaker, etc.

Do you want to see Ford and GM become extinct?

Is anything OK as long as it makes your chosen few (GOP patrons) wealthier?

:D

[MikesMerc]

Here's an interesting link:

http://www.truthabouttrade.org/article.asp?id=5656

From a non-Profit group representing the US Farmers.

[hitchhiker]

Here's an interesting link:

http://www.truthabouttrade.org/article.asp?id=5656

From a non-Profit group representing the US Farmers.

Written by 'K' street (major Bush patrons) financial interests who are making lots of money while the life is being sucked out of our country.

They will be wealthy, living in their gated communities, while the rest of us compete for scraps in their vision of the new world global economy.

It would have been nice to see a factual article posted instead of more propaganda.

Here is one source for the truth about about what is being done right now to ruin our future:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=10 width=700 bgColor=#ffffff border=0><TBODY><TR><TD width=329 bgColor=#cccccc>http://i.cnn.net/cnn/CNN/Programs/lou.dobbs.tonight/images/2004/08/lou.book.jpg </TD><TD class=cnnBodyText vAlign=top>The shipment of American jobs to cheap foreign labor markets threatens not only millions of workers and their families, but also the American way of life. With the pay of corporate CEOs at historical highs and job creation at the lowest level since the Depression, corporate raiders are breaking down our borders in search of the lowest-price labor available anywhere in the world. For the first time in history, corporations are laying off Americans from well-paying jobs and replacing them with low-paid foreign workers. A recent study revealed that 14 million American jobs are now at risk of being outsourced overseas.

Make no mistake, Corporate America isn't doing all this alone: Big business and Washington are in cahoots, trading our nation's livelihood for short-term gain and Lou Dobbs's bold new book takes dead aim. A stirring call to arms and an invaluable prescriptive guide to dealing with the issue, EXPORTING AMERICA tells readers what they can do to save not only their own jobs, but the American dream.

Where to buy:
http://barnesandnoble.com (http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=Yf7qioq 9ww&isbn=0446577448&itm=4)
http://www.amazon.com (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0446577448/qid=1092259905/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/102-0411290-5639345?v=glance&s=books&n=507846)
http://www.borders.com (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0446577448/qid=1092259961/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_1/102-0411290-5639345?v=glance&n=507846)

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Regards,

Dave

:D

[MikesMerc]

Here is one source for the truth about about what is being done right now to ruin our future:

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=10 width=700 bgColor=#ffffff border=0><TBODY><TR><TD width=329 bgColor=#cccccc>http://i.cnn.net/cnn/CNN/Programs/lou.dobbs.tonight/images/2004/08/lou.book.jpg </TD><TD class=cnnBodyText vAlign=top>The shipment of American jobs to cheap foreign labor markets threatens not only millions of workers and their families, but also the American way of life. With the pay of corporate CEOs at historical highs and job creation at the lowest level since the Depression, corporate raiders are breaking down our borders in search of the lowest-price labor available anywhere in the world. For the first time in history, corporations are laying off Americans from well-paying jobs and replacing them with low-paid foreign workers. A recent study revealed that 14 million American jobs are now at risk of being outsourced overseas.

Make no mistake, Corporate America isn't doing all this alone: Big business and Washington are in cahoots, trading our nation's livelihood for short-term gain and Lou Dobbs's bold new book takes dead aim. A stirring call to arms and an invaluable prescriptive guide to dealing with the issue, EXPORTING AMERICA tells readers what they can do to save not only their own jobs, but the American dream.

Where to buy:
http://barnesandnoble.com (http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=Yf7qioq 9ww&isbn=0446577448&itm=4)
http://www.amazon.com (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0446577448/qid=1092259905/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/102-0411290-5639345?v=glance&s=books&n=507846)
http://www.borders.com (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0446577448/qid=1092259961/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_1/102-0411290-5639345?v=glance&n=507846)

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>



LOL...you cough up this idiot? :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

He's a joke...even amongst the left, and the laughing stock of journalism to boot. Everyone knows he stepped up the nightly trade protectionist rhetoric because Fox news was burrying his program.

Lou Dobbs is worried about one thing....Lou Dobbs. He knows what the country is worried about and preys on its fears for ratings. He's the lowest of journalistic lifeforms.

What a bafoon.:soapbox:

[MikesMerc]

Is anything OK as long as it makes your chosen few (GOP patrons) wealthier?


Yep :D

No seriously, You've convinced me of the higher truth!!

I even support having the aliens from Area 51 in the Cabinet and Defense Department too. They, along with Bigfoot, can rise up a crush the zealous corporate infidels and free us of the economic tyranny we all find ourselves subject too. I'll prepare my tinfoil hat tonight so that I can communicate with all the other conspiracy mongers more efficiently. We must rise up and crush everyone in the governement cause they are all bad folk. Every last one of em. The truth MUST be uncovered.

BTW, Elvis said Hi.

[hitchhiker]

LOL...you cough up this idiot? :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

He's a joke...even amongst the left, and the laughing stock of journalism to boot. Everyone knows he stepped up the nightly trade protectionist rhetoric because Fox news was burrying his program.

Lou Dobbs is worried about one thing....Lou Dobbs. He knows what the country is worried about and preys on its fears for ratings. He's the lowest of journalistic lifeforms.

What a bafoon.:soapbox:

Coming from someone who believes the drool coming out of Fox News, your opinion of Lou Dobbs means nothing to me. It just shows that you are one of the easily fooled or perhaps part of the corporate problem yourself. You should also use spell check on your posts before submitting them.

Obviously, you do believe the BS you're touting as information. Incredible!

Now if you had called Bill O'Reilly or Rush Limbaugh buffoons, you would have been correct.

Enjoy your time in the here and now; There will be very few Elephants in heaven.

God Bless America.

Regards,

Dave

:D

[Rider90]

There will be very few Elephants in heaven.

But this one is so cute!
http://www.totallycool.net/Blurbs72001/IMAG0021.JPG

[hitchhiker]

Yep :D

No seriously, You've convinced me of the higher truth!!

I even support having the aliens from Area 51 in the Cabinet and Defense Department too. They, along with Bigfoot, can rise up a crush the zealous corporate infidels and free us of the economic tyranny we all find ourselves subject too. I'll prepare my tinfoil hat tonight so that I can communicate with all the other conspiracy mongers more efficiently. We must rise up and crush everyone in the governement cause they are all bad folk. Every last one of em. The truth MUST be uncovered.

BTW, Elvis said Hi.

Name calling directed as the messenger will not change the truth.

Your profile identifies you as a corporate officer (CFO).

How many working people's lives can you take credit for ruining via layoffs and offshoring of jobs?

Maybe Lou Dobbs' message strikes a little too close to home?

Regards,

Dave

:D

[hitchhiker]

But this one is so cute!
http://www.totallycool.net/Blurbs72001/IMAG0021.JPG

I like that!

:lol: :lol: :lol:

[marauder307]

"Can this be the beginning of the end?"

Yeah, and the sky's falling too.

The points that have repeatedly made in various quarters---about high demand, high supply, etc---are correct, but only so far as they go.
What they miss is a couple of pretty obvious facts (at least, obvious to me...)

1) We're a country at war. The war effort, such as it is, lives or dies on fuel---ships that make the supply runs run on DFM, tanks run on some variant of mogas or JP-5, Humvees run on mogas or diesel, etc. All these vehicles, before 9/11, were just sitting around in garrison, doing nothing; not a lot of fuel consumption when you're in garrison.

Now, all that stuff is deployed or deploying; it's burning fuel like it was goin' out of style. So, yeah, our demand's a LOT higher, and it's been that way for the last 5 years. The solution? Find bin Laden and kill him. Publicly. Nastily. Painfully. Bloodily. End the GWOT, and the gas demand goes down...and the only way to end the GWOT is to take care of business the way it oughta be done.

2) The above holds true for the supply levels. I think it speaks pretty well of Bush & Co. that they've been able to convince OPEC to keep pumping out the black stuff even as we're trying to hunt down and destroy one of their own.

3) Are we getting gouged? Ohhh, you betcha...I think I've got one of Exxon's chisels sticking out of my navel. (This after going in through my spine.) Now, I'm all for supporting free enterprise and letting market forces be the controlling factor, but Big Oil is flat-out profiteering here. What's my evidence? The parting shots thrown by Exxon's outgoing CEO last week; his comment was "I don't want to hear from the White House when prices are $75 a barrel just like I didn't want to hear from them when prices were $10 a barrel."

He might as well have said, "Let them eat cake." Hope he chokes on that $400 million retirement package.

Hitchhiker: You want to take potshots at Bush, yet like most other liberal so-and-so's, you keep looking in all the wrong damn places. Lemme help you a bit: Ask yourself why, with the technological sophistication, superior training, and superior weapons and people, why at 9/11 plus five years, we haven't been able to nail bin Laden to the nearest sand dune and mount his head on a pike outside 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue?

Find that answer for yourself...and you'll understand at least part of the reason why the gas prices are outta control.

[BillyGman]

No amount of government legislation is going to reverse the melding of the global economy. Perhaps I was just looking at this on a smaller plane. For instance, what do you think about what happened with Harley Davidson since the mid 80's? They were struggling, and the Japanese motorcycles industry was flourishing. So in 1984 President Reagan imposed a 49% tariff on all Japanese motorcycles with engines of 750cc and bigger, and that helped to bring Harley Davidson back with avengence.

As far as the title of this thread, and the main topic that would be nice for us to get back to here, I just think that things run in cycles through the pages of history, and because of that, I don't believe that these HP wars will go on indefinitely. Something is going to bring them to a halt just as something did 30 years ago.

[Donny Carlson]

before the politics get the thread closed.


I absolutely hate paying $75 a tank, and would need a change of underwear if it was $125. If it hits $5 a gallon, the SSR is gonna be traded in on something hybrid or 4 cylinder, and screw horse power.

[David Morton]

When is 'Politician Season'?

You could put that 50 cal. to good use!

:DYou can thank yer lucky stars you didn't say "federal" in that 1st sentence. You might get a visit from some federal law enforcement officers if you did.

[jerrym3]

As much as I'd like to see Osama dead or in jail for the rest of his days, behind him is another Osama, and behind him is another Osama, and so forth and so on.................

Granted, he had the family wealth to support his murderous plot, but there will always be money around to fund the next SOB, and much of it will come from our trips to the gas station.

[duhtroll]

Hey, all I know is that prices can jump 15 cents overnight, and then when we discover a few million more barrels of oil, the prices only gradually go down 1/3 the prior increase, and even then it takes 2 weeks.

The gouging is happening in the way the prices are raised and lowered as much as it is in the prices themselves.

But of course, regulating prices in some way would be a pinko commie treehugging liberal hippie tinfoil hat conspiracy.

Right? :lol:

-A

[hitchhiker]

You can thank yer lucky stars you didn't say "federal" in that 1st sentence. You might get a visit from some federal law enforcement officers if you did.

Come on now. You know I was kidding.

:D

Oh, I didn't see those crown vics out front!

:lol:

[hitchhiker]

Hitchhiker: You want to take potshots at Bush, yet like most other liberal so-and-so's, you keep looking in all the wrong damn places. Lemme help you a bit: Ask yourself why, with the technological sophistication, superior training, and superior weapons and people, why at 9/11 plus five years, we haven't been able to nail bin Laden to the nearest sand dune and mount his head on a pike outside 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue?
.

I am not a liberal. I am a former Republican who saw his party morph into something I could no longer be a part of. The current Democratic party really isn't any better. Bush is the current President. I had points to make about Clinton too. Please read our constitution. It protects our right to critique our leaders. I wish more citizens would question the reasons behind events instead of just accepting the talking points of a morally bankrupt political party.

Like I said previously, There will always be performance vehicles. The cost of operating them...now that's another story.

Have a great day and enjoy it while you can. Fuel will continue to go up in price most likely.

Regards,

Dave

:D

[GreekGod]

A Democrat is just a Republican that hasn't been mugged yet.

I do not believe in the false Right-Left dichotomy. There is only more or less government. Anarchy is no government. Our Republic is a system with checks and balance and a Constitution that is the law of the land. If you have swallowed the poison of Democracy and a false Right-Left conflict, you have no basis of truth to start from.

Capitalism is not a system. It is the natural way true free trade works.

[Mad4Macs]

10...9...8...7...6...5...4...3 ...2...1... :popcorn:

[BillyGman]

Getting back to the original topic, let me clarify something..... I don't think that the gas prices alone are going to end the HP wars amongst the big three this year, or even next year. In fact, hybrid car sales are in the basement, and they're far from catching on.

It's just that it's becoming a trend that in the spring, the gas prices go through the roof. And I know that the bigger our government gets, the more rules, laws and restrictions there are that get written on the books. Most politicians are simply lawyers, who always want to write more Laws and regulations in an attempt to get their names in the newspapers so they can gain future votes, whether more laws are needed or not. :rolleyes: And the faster the factory cars get, the more the HP levels of cars become a bigger target for politicians, and therefore a vehicle for them to gain political clout with the voters who are parents of teenagers. Atleast that's the way they will see it.

I sure hope my predictions are all wrong, but I believe that by 2010, there's going to be some big changes blowing in the wind for hi-perf cars and trucks. And it might simply come via strangulating gas prices. Whether it's via gas prices, or some other means, it will be very deliberate on the part of our big government. Big government is the opposite of freedom, plain and simple. I'm not saying that fast cars will become a target for all politicians, but because most of them look for a niche to use to gain political ground, some of them will look to use the HP wars to "cash in". If you think that's far fetched, then just remember Ralph Nadar. Fast cars were his original target.

[SergntMac]

When they start taxing brake horsepower, I'll go nitrous...

[TripleTransAm]

The gouging is happening in the way the prices are raised and lowered as much as it is in the prices themselves.

Agreed... I've yet to see the dramatic price drop at the pumps that would reflect the drop in oil prices due to the increased reserves that were announced a few days ago.

It's just simple economics... the price keeps going up, we keep buying it, the price will go up again, we'll just keep buying more... we're hooked. We're automotive crack addicts. We're fuel junkies, most of us would probably gladly pay 5 times what we currently pay just to enjoy our motoring style. 10 times more? Heck, some of us might do it, just to keep enjoying high performance cars. Why did I commute to work so often in a carbureted 400 cubic inch 70s Trans Am last summer when I had an uber-efficient late 90s version (with tons more power to boot) waiting at home? Because I could. And I'll probably do it again this summer too (though not as often, with the kids being with me in the car more often).

Expecting the government to do something about it would be silly. The welcomed source of taxation is there and wouldn't be given up easily. We also have to maintain consistency: if we advocate a 'hands off my property' attitude towards government, we can't expect it to interfere in the natural behaviour of capitalism.

The only way to control fuel prices is to regulate and limit our consumption. If only 1/3 of the fuel is being consumed after prices are doubled, the result is a loss in profit, which is a big capitalist no-no. Continued dependance on fuel-hungry vehicles while demanding low prices is contradictory. Anyone working for themselves can appreciate the lunacy of this concept, imagining your customers coming to you and simply proclaiming that they intend to continue to purchase your product and more of it, but refuse to pay you what you are asking for it, and you have no say in the matter. I know I'd be pissed.

[the_pack_rat]

I'm not too worried about all this ......

I'll just go find me some of that ultra-rare racing blend kersosene, & I'll be good to go.

[BillyGman]

When they start taxing brake horsepower, I'll go nitrous...Not a bad idea. ;)