My Sick Marauder...

[Rider90]

Where to start...

I installed the Granatelli C.O.P. Kit today and the install went great, but a few problems were found...

http://midwestpanthers.net/sickmm/1.jpg
I don't know what # cylinder this is, I'm sure you guys do...Passenger side closest to the firewall. A liquid that looks clear and has obviously done some corrision is pooling inside. This was not here when I did the S/C install, about 4,000 miles ago. So this is what has accumulated since the install. I could not get a scent on it, my hands already smelled like oil, what could it be?

http://midwestpanthers.net/sickmm/2.jpg
This is what the bottom of the plug boot looked like from that cylinder, wet, and the spring within is corroded (rusty lookin)

http://midwestpanthers.net/sickmm/3.jpg
The plug boot

FYI - These conditions were found on both the cylinder closest to the firewall on the passenger side as well as one cylinder foward of that (second closest to firewall, passenger side)

http://midwestpanthers.net/sickmm/4.jpg
Here is the cylinder closest to the firewall on the driver's side.

http://midwestpanthers.net/sickmm/5.jpg
I suspect oil from that breather has leaked into the coil cover, since both are wet with oil.

http://midwestpanthers.net/sickmm/6.jpg
that breather..plug...at a loss for words...

http://midwestpanthers.net/sickmm/7.jpg
My fix, for now, for a better seal.

Another issue since I put the Trilogy on has been a howl, I am having trouble figuring if it is close to the firewall or the front of the accessories. Sound seems louder near the back of the engine, and goes away once the engine is around 100*F

Here is a VIDEO
http://midwestpanthers.net/sickmm/enginehowl1.wmv

What can it be?

Also wondering with that pooling, can it be fuel or oil? Oil does not corrode, does fuel? does not smell like antifreeze.

[Rider90]

I'm starting to think it is just water, the coil cover gaskets seemed to have some wet areas and I cleaned my engine about 300 miles ago...ideas on how to get it out?

[blackf0rk]

Ouch, that howl is definately not normal. Sorry to hear about this. Being a 'sound guy' I would suspect that it's something moving quite fast. The frequency of that sound is high, so maybe something attributed to the pulley(s)? But you said it sounds more like it's coming from the rear of the engine? Maybe something in your TC or trans?

Have you tried dressing the belt to see if that was it? I know it sounds like a simple/stupid fix, but at least it would be the cheapest place to start. Then again, you could probably pin-point that sound easily if it was coming from the SC belt.

Hmm.

[blackf0rk]

I'm starting to think it is just water, the coil cover gaskets seemed to have some wet areas and I cleaned my engine about 300 miles ago...ideas on how to get it out?

Do you have a vacuum? You can go to a hardware store and get really small attachments for wet vacs - attachments that are small enough to fit in there and be precise enough to soak up the juice. Just a suggestion.

[Rider90]

Have you tried dressing the belt to see if that was it?
Yes. That is not the problem. I think it is near the firewall...could it be the blower? if so..how?

[blackf0rk]

Ok. How about these:

1. Could the belt be rubbing on something it's not suppose to be touching?
2. Maybe you have a very small vacuum leak that is undetectable under load, and small/large enough to cause the noise?
3. Could it be the actual supercharger thingys (forget the word) that compress the air? Maybe they're going bad - bad S/C'r?




EDIT: Upon further inspection of the video, I would say it's definately NOT a vacuum leak sound.

[Rider90]

I'm going to go outside and take the S/C belt off and start it, will share my results soon Jourdan.

Thanks

[Breadfan]

I thought you weren't supposed to dress grooved belts?

Anyway, I'd wonder if the howl is a vacuum leak. A vacuum leak could also cause the oil buildup you saw.

As for water, I learned to be cautious hosing down Ford V8's after finding out water pools in the SOCH plug areas and causes shorts/misfires.

[Breadfan]

Ok. How about these:

1. Could the belt be rubbing on something it's not suppose to be touching?
2. Maybe you have a very small vacuum leak that is undetectable under load, and small/large enough to cause the noise?
3. Could it be the actual supercharger thingys (forget the word) that compress the air? Maybe they're going bad - bad S/C'r?




EDIT: Upon further inspection of the video, I would say it's definately NOT a vacuum leak sound.

#3 is plausible in a way. Bad bearings perhaps. My friend has bad bearings in his Magnussen though and it rattles, doesn't whistle...

[Rider90]

I thought you weren't supposed to dress grooved belts?
Both belts have grooved sides, and I dressed both grooved sides. Nothin...

[Rider90]

VIDEO #2
http://midwestpanthers.net/sickmm/howl2.wmv
Blower belt off, howl went away because the engine was still warm but notice how it fades off...

[blackf0rk]

Well, then it's not your supercharger. (Thank you Cpt. Obvious :D)






EDIT: Hey, could it be the intercooler core? Maybe the air flowing through the little ribs is making that noise?

[Zack]

Use silicone around the end of the coil pack wiring harness to seal it from the elements. The factory uses silicone and the seal is broken the first time the coil cover is removed.

[Tallboy]

Rider, about the "howling", did you do the Trilogy-only K&N mod?

You drill another hole in the K&N and add a second vacuum hose.

[Rider90]

Rider, about the "howling", did you do the Trilogy-only K&N mod?

You drill another hole in the K&N and add a second vacuum hose.
I've never heard of this. Link? Thanks

Now I am guessing the howl can be a bad water pump?

I just went for a test drive and I have a stumble upon moderate load. The purpose of the test drive was to get the engine hot and take off the coil covers and packs so evaporation can do it's job. One thing I noticed was that 6/8 of the Granatelli wires stayed on the plug and not the coil pack when I removed them - is that a problem? Also, that black sliding device on the Granatelli wire is usually slid to one end and not in the middle - problem?

[Rider90]

Use silicone around the end of the coil pack wiring harness to seal it from the elements. The factory uses silicone and the seal is broken the first time the coil cover is removed.
Once I get this stumble figured out I will pull them back off and apply the silicone. Thanks Zack.

[Tallboy]

Your howling sound may be cured by the following...

http://www.circlecitymarauders.com/trilogy_kandn/

[Rider90]

Your howling sound may be cured by the following...

http://www.circlecitymarauders.com/trilogy_kandn/
Thanks Chuck, but the howling is not changed when that fitting is moved. Maybe that will help my oil issue...what a mess that is...

[Tallboy]

Thanks Chuck, but the howling is not changed when that fitting is moved. Maybe that will help my oil issue...what a mess that is...

We do every Trilogy and K&N combo this way. No noises, or oil issues. I hope it helps.

[Rider90]

We do every Trilogy and K&N combo this way. No noises, or oil issues. I hope it helps.
and I'm sure it will. Thank you

Do you, or does anyone else, have a clue as to what that embarrassing howling is?

[Tallboy]

and I'm sure it will. Thank you

Do you, or does anyone else, have a clue as to what that embarrassing howling is?

My shot in the dark-check the ribbed idler pully bearing on the passenger side top of the accessory drive belt, or the idler pulley bearing on the alternator bracket.

[SergntMac]

I can't answer any noise/howl questions, but backing up a bit...

Cylinder numbering is relatively easy. Working from the firewall forward, passenger side is cylinders 4, 3, 2 and 1. Driver's side cylinders are 8, 7, 6 and 5. Your problem is in cylinders 4 and 8

Like Zack said, your issue with fluids is that it's water, and it's coming in over 4 and 8 because the coil pack wire harness has lost it's factory seal.

Re-install the coil covers with carefully and with some additional silicone around the harness as it passes between the coil cover, and the valve cover, and you'll be fine.

Tighten down the coil covers snugly too. BTW, a set of Wes Chain thumbscrews do a better job at sealing the coil cover than the OEM bolts.

[Rider90]

Chuck,
I checked both idler pulleys by hand and they seem fine. The pulley on the alternator bracket has already been replaced once, but still may not be out of the question.

Mac,
Thanks for the # info, now I know. The speak-plug areas are now dry and I haved added the silicone and tightened with thumb screws.


All----

Now I have a stumble problem. I took each Granatelli connector out and swamped both ends of the wire in dielectric grease thinking that may have been my problem to begin with. After a 15 minute test drive I've concluded something is wrong around 3,000 RPM - I have no power from there to 3,500 which is unusual and it stumbles from 5,000-6,000 RPM. Not that bad, maybe one cylinder, but the point of my test drive was to get the computer to throw a code and tell me which cylinder was misfiring and nadda, the computer slept through the whole thing.

Am I doing something wrong? Does the dielectric grease need to run down the whole Granatelli wire? Maybe it's time to replace the plugs again because of the moisture issue...

9 hours under the hood today and it still isn't working right...

[Tallboy]

You've got a Predator, right? Perhaps a quick data-logging session will shed some light on the subject?

[kj31067]

my guess would be anything that is run on serpentine belt
i listened to that vid and i thought ''accessory bearing'' as soon as i heard it .. just my .02....

[FordNut]

My two guesses on two problems...
1. Idler pulley noise.
2. Water corrosion may have damaged spark plug insulation, try new plugs.

[blackf0rk]

my guess would be anything that is run on serpentine belt
i listened to that vid and i thought ''accessory bearing'' as soon as i heard it .. just my .02....

Yes. And as I mentioed before about the noise; it's at quite a high frequency which means it's something vibrating quite fast.

Also, any water in the engine is not good. Anything (even what you're going through) can happen. But look on the bright side - at least you didn't hydrolock it :D

[DEFYANT]

I suspect an idler pulley.

One of mine went bad and drove me bonkers trying to find the "Odd Sound".

I found it by using an automotive stethescope (sp?). I keep placing the probe around the engine compartment in different noisey thingys.

I listend to fuel injectors, cam covers timing chain cover, altenator, the blower - I could go on and on.

Probably looked like a real dork too.

Then I found it!

I put the probe on the bolt that secures an ider pulley to the timing chain cover. Bingo! Thats the sound!

First thing I said was "Thank god its not the blower!"

Second thing I said was "Yo, Jerry, I need an "idler pulley - ribbed, part number 4W33-030504-004-A1" as indicated in the manual page 92.

Funny thing happen. A new one showed up a few days later and the problem was gone.

The berring was shot.

[DEFYANT]

Whoops, theres is a pic on page 94.

[Rider90]

Thanks for the replies everyone. I do still have the Predator, may sell it soon, but I don't really know how to log with it. I'll get new plugs, if that doesn't work, then I'll get the stock coil pack springs and throw the Granatelli kit away.

Jourdan - There was no water "IN" the engine, thankfully. It was just in the spark plug tunnel, still, too close for my comfort :D

Charlie - I'll get an auto stethoscope over here soon and listen around. People that don't know a thing about cars ask what that sound is on cold-start when I leave work, I reply "It's the supercharger blades warming up" or "The bearing is breaking in." I think they're on to me by now.

(ignore P/N I'm posting it so I know what to order tomorrow AWSF-22C)

[Donny Carlson]

I vote for bearing noise, likely the idler pully like Fordnut said.

[Rider90]

Got me thinking...If it was an idler pulley - why does the noise go away once the engine is warm?

[LCSO34]

Kinda off subject, but on the subject of the idler pulley. I noticed a ticking noise and thought it was one of the heads, but I got to watching the idler pulley and it was vibrating a lot, in time with the ticking. It acted like the spring was weak, my question is this normal, the thing was moving about an inch, I never noticed this on the T-bird. How hard is it to change?

[SergntMac]

You have two repair issues pending here and I don't know where to reply. This thread reads like it's addressing a noise, so, I'll skip over to the other thread. Meanwhile, wipe all the grease off the COP connectors, spray the clean with brake cleaner too.

[Rider90]

You have two repair issues pending here and I don't know where to reply. This thread reads like it's addressing a noise, so, I'll skip over to the other thread. Meanwhile, wipe all the grease off the COP connectors, spray the clean with brake cleaner too.
The water has been taken care of, but as of yesterday I still had a stumble under moderate/wide open throttle. There seems to be some confusion as to where to put the dielectric grease...I thought both ends? there is none on the wire...

The howl will get diagnosed as soon as I can get an auto stethoscope.

[shakes_26]

Definitely sounds like a bearing, most likely one of the idler pulleys.

I have an auto stethoscope, so if you can't find one, let me know if you want to borrow.

[Paul T. Casey]

Howl is, IMHO, an idler pulley issue as previously stated. Mine does the same thing right now, noisy until it warms up. I think the grease/lube in it heats enough to seep into the bad bearings and quiet things down. Fluid is just water, IMHO, and again this is a re-curring problem for me too. I now re-seal and inspect the coil/wire area once a month. Silicone is a lot cheaper than new COP's.

[mad1stgen]

Why don't you remove the primary 6 rib belt to isolate the idler bearing noise ?
You can run the engine for couple seconds with no accessories.

[Rider90]

Why don't you remove the primary 6 rib belt to isolate the idler bearing noise ?
You can run the engine for couple seconds with no accessories.
If I cannot figure it out with a steth, that is the next step. Thanks for the replies everyone, now onto the thread where I am misfiring....

[Rider90]

Definitely sounds like a bearing, most likely one of the idler pulleys.

I have an auto stethoscope, so if you can't find one, let me know if you want to borrow.
I think my brother has one at work, if not I'll PM you. Thanks Shakes!

[Smokie]

Your noise sounds to me like a moving part barely rubbing a stationary part...both are metal. The fact after warming up it gets better not worse suggests to me that heat expansion is creating a gap between the rubbing parts...I am not familiar with bearings that get quieter the longer they run.

This may sound primitive to you, but I use a hollow metal pipe to trace origin of noises, about 2 to 2 1/2 feet long...it works rather well.:D

[Rider90]

There is a Murrays next to work, I looked online and for $10.00 i'll pick up a stethoscope since the brother doesn't seem to want to help. Thanks though, Shakes.

Thanks for the replies everyone. I'm eager to get this tracked down and I really appreciate the feedback.

[magindat]

Jason,

Marc had the EXACT same sound and problem after we finished his SC. The ideler pulley was bouncing, howling sound, bad idle. All was caused by the IAC vacuum line being knocked off. It's easy to do and it's hard to see under the throttle body. I'm suspecting it got bumped when removing the coil cover.

I know it sounds simple, but it had 4 of us stumped for about 2 hours.

I guess the comp keeps trying to compensate and is confused by that line not being on. Caused the same noise and action on your videos.

We thought it was the idler, too, but as soon as we found it and plugged the line on, everything smoothed right out.

Hope it's that simple.

Rich

[Jerry Barnes]

Rider90,

We received your old bracket back and put it on Trilogy #2. We were able to recreate the squeeky belt condition. We have had some bearings go bad and as Defyant has said we sent new bearings a.s.a.p. to those customers. Most of the time the problem was fixed. As background, we purchased new, more expensive, more heat resistent bearings and they are the ones giving us a problem. Go figure! So we have gone back to the old bearing.

I want to be very up front. We are looking into the alternator bracket and checking and re-checking the dimensional characteristics of the bracket. We have checked our assumptions on the engine stand, on Trilogy #2 and on the digital data in our computer system. I don't know if it is a problem yet, but we should have an answer by the end of the week. We are putting all of the parts and different conditions on Trilogy #2 and beating the piss out of it.

It is very difficult for us to diagnose a problem hundreds of miles away. That is why I sent our guys to Chicago to help a couple of weeks ago. I thought we had the problem licked, but we will work on it until it is right.

My offer still stands, I will send a truck and enclosed trailer with Trilogy #2 and let you have Trilogy #2 while we bring your car to Michigan and thoroughly review your issues.

The rust and the hesitation on acceleration are new ones for me, so I cannot comment on those issues, but I would be willing to work with Lidio to do the research.

The bearing and pulley issue I think we are getting close to addressing. I will have Scott call you with an update in the next couple of days.

Call me anytime day or night (248)877-2792.

Thanks

Jerry

[Rider90]

Jerry,

I hope to get squared away with this misfire/stumble issue soon. I need to do even more troubleshooting, and if coil packs from a SOHC 4.6L are not compatible for testing then I may have to fork up even more money for the right ones so I can continue troubleshooting.

I appreciate the first favor in sending a truck and two techs to my doorstep to get the issue squared away, and your second offering is unlike any other I could imagine. If I cannot find the howl and/or cannot get the squeak out of the picture then I will gladly give the car over for however long you need it to research it's problem. The whole purpose of my S/C purchase and install date was to have it crankin' by Summer though. Just FYI, I have a belt-sounding noise around 3,000 RPM now. Like a squeal that stays constant.

Like usual your generosity is through the roof, and we'll keep in touch.

Thanks Jerry,

Jason

[ex00p71]

Wow, That may be the best customer service I've ever seen! It also sounds like you guys stand by your products quite thoroughly also. Jason, good luck with your car I hope it turns out alright.

[Jerry Barnes]

Jason,

I know just how you feel. I have been having my cars worked on and it is taking longer then I expected. And I to want to get the cars ready for summer. We would have your car no longer then a week. Call me when you are ready.

Thanks

Jerry

[juno]

The only thing I can add to this thread is Wow!!

Now that is customer service!!

[Brutus]

Sean Hyland needs to read THIS thread!

[blackf0rk]

That's Jerry for ya! :D

[Lone_Star]

Many sleepless nights since I first heard this squeal. We are working on it night and day. I will definitely keep you informed Jason.

[DEFYANT]

Did he just offer to send his car to Rider90 and ship Riders car to Michigan?

Jerry has once again raised the customer service bar!

Nice going!

[Rider90]

If anyone reading this thread can help with my stumble issue, please help me out...

http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?t=27221&page=2

[blackf0rk]

Did he just offer to send his car to Rider90 and ship Riders car to Michigan?

Jerry has once again raised the customer service bar!

Nice going!

Yea, and this isn't the first time Jerry's helped out in this fashion.