To Flush or Not to Flush

[STLR FN]

by machine that is. Change fluid by flushing or do it the old fashion way by dropping the pan, changing filter and adding new fluid? My dealer says that flushing gets out 99% of the old fluid and there is no need to drop the pan. But what about the filter and any particles that are trapped by it? Where do the particles go? Do they get dissolved? Just asking. Guess you can say I'm somewhat skeptical but if it works then hey I'll do it.

[jgc61sr2002]

I guess I am a little old fashion. I believe i dropping the pan .
Many new cars have a drain plug on the transmission pan which allows you to change 3 of 4 quarts of transmission fluid.

[Rider90]

Having talked to professional mechanics 20 years in the business, I have heard nothing good of complete flushes, especially on higher mileage transmissions. I'll stick to my fluid change and filters just as our cab fleet of 1000+ CV's has been for years.

[STLR FN]

Having talked to professional mechanics 20 years in the business, I have heard nothing good of complete flushes, especially on higher mileage transmissions. I'll stick to my fluid change and filters just as our cab fleet of 1000+ CV's has been for years.I've heard nothing good about doing flushes either. Guess I'll stick to doing it the old fashioned way. But I'm still curious to how others feel.

[Marauderjack]

All I have heard DJ is that after the first scheduled filter change the filter never needs to be replaced again (per David Morton I think)....so I put a pan with a drain plug on mine and drop 4+ quarts every other oil change and forget about da filter!!:beer:

BTW.....I do oil and filter changes at 5K mile intervals and the trans fluid stays sparkling by swapping out 4+ quarts every 10K miles!!:bows: :banana:

Marauderjack:burnout:

[RF Overlord]

I've heard nothing good about doing flushes either. Guess I'll stick to doing it the old fashioned way. But I'm still curious to how others feel.I've said this a hundred times before, but I believe it bears repeating...

There is NOTHING wrong with doing a complete flush as long as you are using the correct machine in the correct fashion. Take the T-Tech machine for example; it's little more than a double-ended cylinder that has fresh ATF pumped in through one end. There is a pair of lines that connect to the cooler line coming from the transmission, then the motor is started and allowed to idle. The transmission's OWN PUMP pushes the old fluid into the other end of that cylinder (which is sealed between the 2 sections, like a shock absorber) which then gently pushes the fresh fluid back into the transmission. There is NO back-flushing or power-flushing involved. The fluids are all circulated by the transmission in the normal fashion. This is the exact method Ford dealers have been using for years.

The problems occur when Joe SixPack realises that his poorly-maintained beater is now starting to shift funny...or slip when it gets hot...whatever. Knowing that he has NEVER done a thing to it, he finally decides to take it to Jiffy Lube and have them do a transmission flush. The transmission is on its last legs, and it's too little-too late, but guess what, folks? Those damed Jiffy Lube monkies worked on it last, and they did a transmission flush that they said would cure all its problems, but now his transmission's broke, so it MUST be their fault, and that transmission flush MUST have caused it. This is how these urban legends get started and why they refuse to die.

A flush, performed properly on a transmission in GOOD WORKING ORDER, will not cause it to malfunction. In case I haven't been clear, my definition of "good working order" means one that hasn't been abused all its life by towing or too many trips down the 1320, and also means that the ATF has been changed all along on a schedule that is appropriate to the car's driving conditions. Do not go in for a flush if the car has 150,000 miles on it and the fluid has never been changed.

Now that my rant-of-choice is over, lemme answer STLR FN's other question: the factory service manual clearly states that it is only necessary to replace the filter if the transmission car is undergoing an actual internal repair procedure, not if it's just getting routine maintenance. IMHO, it's an inexpensive item, and I would change it at least the first time. You should be able to skip the next one or two filter changes. Better yet, if you're having the dealer do all this work anyway, have them do their normal flush, change the filter, and install the Ford factory pan that has the drain plug already installed (p/n F8UZ-7A194-AA). That way you can follow jgc's plan (and mine, too, BTW) of changing the ATF at some convenient schedule in your own driveway. I do mine at every other oil change (10,000 miles total) which may sound a little often, but with the blower on the car, it's cheap insurance and it's so much easier and less messy now.

*Disclaimer*

Neither I nor any of my relatives works in the transmission-related industry. I have no financial interest in Jiffy Lube nor Clore Manufacturing, maker of the T-Tech machine. I simply believe that on-line forums like this one should promote clear factual information, not hearsay or "my wife's cousin's barber knew a guy..."

[STLR FN]

Guess there's two sides to every story. Thanks fo the info RF. I was just asking as I'm do for a change.

[O's Fan Rich]

I've had mine flushed 3 times in 56k. 18k, 38K 54k (just before going to FL) The last one got the screen done.
Yep... shifts real nice.

[RF Overlord]

And Rich...after you get that big whirly thing installed on top of your motor, you especially want to keep up with ATF changes...unless you plan to drive it like a girlie-man... ;)

[O's Fan Rich]

And Rich...after you get that big whirly thing installed on top of your motor, you especially want to keep up with ATF changes...unless you plan to drive it like a girlie-man... ;)

Not me....not me.....

[Bobby Clobber]

Count on it , Rich will drive the hell out of it, it's the guys he runs against that break.:banana2: :banana2:

[Hotrauder]

Count on it , Rich will drive the hell out of it, it's the guys he runs against that break.:banana2: :banana2:

He breaks almost...almost all of them. :D and he will keep coming back till he gets the last one. Watch out for Rich. Do your eyes a favor and watch out for Michelle, too! Dennis:)

[jonroe]

Better yet, if you're having the dealer do all this work anyway, have them do their normal flush, change the filter, and install the Ford factory pan that has the drain plug already installed (p/n F8UZ-7A194-AA). That way you can follow jgc's plan (and mine, too BTW) of changing the ATF at some convenient schedule in your own driveway. I do mine at every other oil change (10,000 miles total) which may sound a little often, but with the blower on the car, it's cheap insurance and it's so much easier and less messy now.
I plan to do exactly this now at 25,000 miles. In fact, today I ordered a new deep pan from Ford Racing to replace my standard pan. It is aluminum, has the cooling fins, and holds two extra quarts of fluid. I'll have the dealer do the pan swap at this 25K flush.

Jon

[carfixer]

RF, great writeup. There are too many horror stories of transmission failures due to fluid flushes. A fluid change will not cause a good trans to go bad.

We used to do the pan drop and filter on cars before we got the trans flush machines 10+ years ago.
Lets look at this, trans holds about 12 quarts of fluid. You drop the pan and change the filter. Put the pan on and add 5 quarts of fluid. Did it help? Sure, 5 quarts of new fluid is better than not changing it at all. Cost: about $80

Flushing with a power flusher: Hook up the machine in-line with a cooler line. Put 16 quarts of fluid in the machine and start the engine. 10-15 minutes later, you have now flushed out your trans, torque converter and the rest of the lubricated parts inside you transmission. Cost: $150.

You make the choice. I will stick to flushing.

Replacing the filter, IMO, is a waste of money. I had a friend with a MM insist on a new filter. I couldn't talk him out of it. We dropped the pan and installed a new filter before flushing his trans. We looked closely at the filter. He won't be changing the filter again, it looked a good a the new one. Your filter will only plug in the event of a catastrophic trans failure. If the fluid is burnt or filter is plugged, you need more than a flush.

[Tallboy]

RF, great writeup. There are too many horror stories of transmission failures due to fluid flushes. A fluid change will not cause a good trans to go bad.

We used to do the pan drop and filter on cars before we got the trans flush machines 10+ years ago.
Lets look at this, trans holds about 12 quarts of fluid. You drop the pan and change the filter. Put the pan on and add 5 quarts of fluid. Did it help? Sure, 5 quarts of new fluid is better than not changing it at all. Cost: about $80

Flushing with a power flusher: Hook up the machine in-line with a cooler line. Put 16 quarts of fluid in the machine and start the engine. 10-15 minutes later, you have now flushed out your trans, torque converter and the rest of the lubricated parts inside you transmission. Cost: $150.

You make the choice. I will stick to flushing.

Replacing the filter, IMO, is a waste of money. I had a friend with a MM insist on a new filter. I couldn't talk him out of it. We dropped the pan and installed a new filter before flushing his trans. We looked closely at the filter. He won't be changing the filter again, it looked a good a the new one. Your filter will only plug in the event of a catastrophic trans failure. If the fluid is burnt or filter is plugged, you need more than a flush.

Yeah, yeah. Why not just call me out by name?? :P

[carfixer]

Yeah, yeah. Why not just call me out by name?? :P
:lol: :rofl:

[Hotrauder]

Yeah, yeah. Why not just call me out by name?? :P

We appreciate your sacrifice, my brotha. :rolleyes: My Art Carr tranny pan came with a new filter. When we changed the pan and dumped the fluid at 21K we installed the new filter. The old filter was absolutely new and there was no reason to change it. I plan to dump the pan at oil changes primarily because I do not trust my FORD dealer oil change newbie techs(?) who gather around my Marauder as if it just arrived from Mars, can't remember to turn off the air and have left old oil filter "O" rings on and had 2 engine seizures in the past as the oil ran out onto the street as customers drove home. If the crack troops led by Claude were local I would flush as I believe that all new fluid is a plus. Dennis

[Smokie]

My car has 37,000 miles and I had the tranny flushed twice (19k & 36k), both times by Ford authorized service departments. Somewhere around 28,000 miles I had the pan dropped by Carfixer and the top tranny guy where he works and they were both very impressed with how clean the fluid and pan were; no residue, powder sludge, metal shavings, a totally clean magnet.

As those of you that know me are aware of; I use my car to it's full potential, the power train goes to it's limits. I recommend the flush when done with the proper equipment that allows the engine running itself (tranny pump) to generate the pressure for the exchange.

My filter is clean and has never been changed.

[Bigdogjim]

If the fluid is burnt or filter is plugged, you need more than a flush.

Yes if it's get to this stage time for a new trans.

The filter is not flushable. So just look at it if it's dirty then change it.

[MdnightMarauder]

What I Do To My Marauder Is Flush It Twice With A Machine. The Only Way You Get All Of The Fluid Out Is Your Torque Converter Need A Plug In It And Drop The Pan. By Flushing It Twice You Get More Of The Old Fluid Out. I Am A Parts Manager At A Lincoln Mercury Dealer. Most Flush Systems Suck. I Would Rather Drop The Pan And Drain The Converter But My Stock Converter Doesn't Have A Plug. Most New Reman Converters Have Plugs In Them.

[LVMarauder]

Im having mine flushed right now , opted not to do drop the pan and replace the filter. I asked for a sample of the mercon v so i can see if it was toasty or not. My trans temp guage spends too much time above 180.

[hitchhiker]

When giving a dweeb a whirley it is usually best to flush the toilet for maximum effect!

:lol:

[Hotrauder]

When giving a dweeb a whirley it is usually best to flush the toilet for maximum effect!

:lol:

I am deathly afraid of the whirley so I am traveling to Carfixer this Saturday for his expert flush and I hope install of the SergntMac recommended
M-7095-SR secondary tranny oil cooler. this dweeb is a careful fraidy cat dweeb in great hands with the mighty Claude. :2thumbs:

NOTE: He pays me to say good things about him. Handsomely. :beer:

[stryker]

:burn: Ok Fellas members I recentlt went to a auto dealer and change my 97 Ford Crown Victoria for a newest Mercury Grand Marquis LS 2003, The Panther still has that interior smell of a new car it only has 62,000 so I change the engine oil and later I went to Western auto to do the tranny flush the first question the guy in service do was the milleage of thye car when I say 62,000 he said "ok" no problem I request to him to use Valvoline Mercon V and they did the flush plus after they inject the new oil they put some additives to make function and protect the tranny parts better that was about a week and a half and I drive long distance and the tranny is working perfect and shift awesome now I have plans to get that tranny pan with the plug for draining at this moment I have CERO problems with the tranny I think the low milleage was an important factor to do the flush ¿ Any comments ?

STRYKER :drive:

[stryker]

! Ups ! I forgot to tell the flush service cost me $130.00 that price includes the new Valvoline Mercon V tranny oil.


STRYKER.

[RF Overlord]

stryker, if they used Mercon V, what was the additive they put in? Mercon V doesn't need anything added to it to work correcctly or to "protect the transmission better"...I'm very leery of adding cans of "miracle-cure" to "fix" problems that don't exist. Get the new pan and get that ATF out of there ASAP and put in fresh fluid.

Did they remove the pan and clean it and the magnet? Did they replace the filter?

[stryker]

!Hmmmmm! No. They don't, he said that with the flush is not necesary to remove the oil pan and neither the filter, That's what the service man tell me, Now I have a indecision ,which of these oil pans you recomend me RF OVERLORD ?

1-ART CARR

2-FORD RACING

3-B&M

Other questions are what is the part number for the tranny filter? This pans include the gasket ? What are the Xtra quarts for each one of these ?

The Amsoil tranny oil will work good for my tranny I heard and read excelent comments about this line of oils not only for tranny also for engine and differential in fact I was using amsoil in the 97 Crownvic LX.

thanks for the advices dude.


STRYKER.

[RF Overlord]

The filter doesn't generally NEED replacing, but at 62,xxx miles, it would be a good idea to at least replace it once. As far as their comment about not removing the pan, that's BS. Removing the pan is the only way to get a decent idea of the transmission's internal condition by checking the amount and colour of the deposits in the pan, and the amount of metals on the magnet. Doing a flush without removing the pan is only doing 3/4 of the job. The RIGHT way to do a flush is to remove the pan, inspect for deposits, clean the pan and magnet, replace the filter if appropriate, reinstall the pan, THEN do the flush.

Any of the 3 pans you listed will work fine, but, honestly, I would go with the Ford factory replacement pan, P/N F8UZ-7A194-AA...costs about $75, looks completely stock, and has a drain plug.

The gasket on the 4R70W is reuseable...I don't know if the pans you listed come with one or not...

AMSOIL ATF is good stuff...use it with full confidence.

[stryker]

:thanks: A lot Mang for your advice I appreciate it really so I will work to get the Amsoil ATF for the 4R70W and about the trans pan I will talk with my mangs of the Ford parts house to start the 1st phase of mods !AGGRESSIVE MODS!


STRYKER.

[Shora]

Where is the magnet that you speak of? I have the new Ford pan with the drain plug and do not see any magnet on it.

[Joe Walsh]

!Hmmmmm! No. They don't, he said that with the flush is not necesary to remove the oil pan and neither the filter, That's what the service man tell me, Now I have a indecision ,which of these oil pans you recomend me RF OVERLORD ?

1-ART CARR

2-FORD RACING

3-B&M



I've got a really nice 'HUGHES' deep sump aluminum tranny pan....satin black with natural aluminum fins and extra fluid capacity, plus magnetic drain plug.
www.hughesperformance.com

[RF Overlord]

Where is the magnet that you speak of? I have the new Ford pan with the drain plug and do not see any magnet on it.Shora, the new pan doesn't come with a magnet...you re-use the one that's in there now. It goes on that little dimple in the corner with 3 "bars" around it...

[stryker]

I visit the web site of Huges for the aluminum tranny pan but it don't are for 4R70W transmission they're only available for C4,AOD,AODE and E4OD. I think I will go for the Ford Racing Trans Pan, anyone knows the part number of that ford racing trans Pan.


STRYKER.

[RF Overlord]

Here ya go... (http://www.fordracingparts.com/parts/part_details.asp?PartKeyField= 6616)

[jstevens]

Okay, experts. Do the cooling fins really help?

I had my flush done at 30,000 and am now at 50,000. I go the the track about 10 times a year and drive spiritedly.

Does the deeper pan make the trans last longer?

[Shora]

Shora, the new pan doesn't come with a magnet...you re-use the one that's in there now. It goes on that little dimple in the corner with 3 "bars" around it...

Goodness, you respond at the speed of light. Thank you very much good buddy. I had the ford dealer replace the pan today with the ford pan containing the drain plug.

The fluid was nice and red but the magnet was totally black from tiny particles I guess. The tech said it was normal but I have no idea if that was true. Also, when I got home I decieded to check the ATF level since the car was hot from over 1 hour of driving. The level was not even on the checkered section of the dip stick so I ran to Pep Boys and bought Pennzoil Marcon V ATF and dumped one quart in there while the engine was still on. I wanted to buy the Motorcraft brand but they don't carry it and I didn't want to drive all the way to the dealer.

Is this brand ok for the transmission?
Is it best to add the fluid while the motor is on or off?

[RF Overlord]

Finding black sludge on the magnet is perfectly normal, unless it's really thick, like over 1/8"...

Good on ya for checking the fluid after letting someone else do the work...glad you caught it or you might have had other issues later on.

Pennzoil Mercon V? No worries, mate!

It doesn't matter if the motor is running or not when adding fluid, as long as the car is level and the motor idling in Park when you check it. If the fluid level is anywhere within the cross-hatched area it's fine. Actually, it should NOT be all the way at the top of the cross-hatch unless the fluid is VERY hot...

[stryker]

!Hmmmmmm! it looks perfect but I ask myself the others trans pans hold the same 2qt of trans oil of they have capable to recieve 3qt or same?


STRYKER.

[RF Overlord]

stryker, I'm not sure what you're asking...

[stryker]

Sorry RF OVERLORD The question is if the others trans pans(B&M,Art Carr) permit to fill with two or more qts of ATF as Ford Racing one or they can recieve more than 2 qt ?


STRYKER.

[SergntMac]

Okay, experts. Do the cooling fins really help?

Does the deeper pan make the trans last longer? IMHO, they can't hurt. The #1 killer of our tranny is overheated fluid, resulting in fluid breakdown. The "rule of thumb" on this is that every time the tranny fluid reaches it's boiling point, it looses half of it's operational life, and reaches that boiling point sooner than before. You really only "burn" the fluid once, and it's all down hill from there.

The air flow under the car is handicapped by the front air dam that redirects the air flow up and through the radiator. What does get past it, serves to externally cool the oil pan and stock tranny pan.

The deeper pan adds 2 more quarts of fluid on tap, and it extends 2" deeper into the undercarriage air flow. Heat transfer native to aluminum is greater that that of the galvanized steel pan, and this is where the fins pay off in keeping tranny temps in check. More fluid + cooling fins = good stuff.

IMHO, overall this is an excellent mod that will help you extend the normal service life of the transmission as a whole, however, it does not offer any immediate performance benefits other than additional moderation of fluid temps.

Just my .02C, carry on gents.

[jstevens]

Thanks Mac, I knew I could count on you for a thorough explanation.

I'm always trying to get things to last longer and this 411 will be put to good use.

[SergntMac]

No problem, glad to offer some views on a good product. One addition benefit I didn't mention...Road hazzards. When something gets flipped up into the tranny area, the fins take the hit before the pan. Moreover, these aftermarket aluminum pans are very thick walled and overall have the effect of a large heat sink shedding temps as you drive. Another plus?

[RF Overlord]

The question is if the others trans pans(B&M,Art Carr) permit to fill with two or more qts of ATF as Ford Racing one or they can recieve more than 2 qt ? Ah, now I get it... ;) but I don't have an answer for you. I'm not familiar with the pans you mention, other than seeing them in catalogues...your best bet for information is to contact those vendors directly, although in general most pans add 1 or 2 qts capacity.

[stryker]

:banana2: The past week I went to a transmission Parts store and I request the price for the Ford Racing trans pan and I think I will buy this for sure, When I got the trans pan I will buy the new Trans oil in Amsoil brand plus new filter,gasket and then do another flushing job but this make me do the next Question ¿ Which other mods can I do to make perform better and last longer my 4R70W Transmission ?


STRYKER.:cool:

[RF Overlord]

stryker, before you install AMSOIL ATF in your transmission, read this (http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?t=28586) thread.

As far as mods to the 4R70W, other than getting a tune from Dennis or Lidio, about the only thing you can/should do is to install the "J-Mod"...Link (http://www.tccoa.com/articles/tranny/shiftybusiness.html)

[stryker]

As far as mods to the 4R70W, other than getting a tune from Dennis or Lidio. ¿Tune? ¿ What kind of tune you said ?


STRYKER.

[STLR FN]

¿Tune? ¿ What kind of tune you said ?


STRYKER.The tune will increase the line pressures in the trans. It allows for quicker and firmer shifts. Creates less heat which in turn helps to prolong the life of the trans. IIRC

*short condensed version posted. Others will provide a more detailed versions*

[Dennis Reinhart]

by machine that is. Change fluid by flushing or do it the old fashion way by dropping the pan, changing filter and adding new fluid? My dealer says that flushing gets out 99% of the old fluid and there is no need to drop the pan. But what about the filter and any particles that are trapped by it? Where do the particles go? Do they get dissolved? Just asking. Guess you can say I'm somewhat skeptical but if it works then hey I'll do it.

He is absolutely right, with the BG transmission flush machine, it will flush the entire transmission and torque converter, if you just pull the pan it leaves 8 quarts of dirty fluid in the converter.

[larryo340]

He is absolutely right, with the BG transmission flush machine, it will flush the entire transmission and torque converter, if you just pull the pan it leaves 8 quarts of dirty fluid in the converter.
The torque converter does not have a drain like it does in my 4R70W??

[Dennis Reinhart]

The torque converter does not have a drain like it does in my 4R70W??


No it does not, but the BG flush machine pushes out all the old fluid and dissplaces it with clean fluid

[Zack]

I just changed the trans fluid on the Blue with 46k on it.
The previous owners never changed it!
A transmission flush is the way to go, cause i only got 5 quarts out and the fluid is still dirty.
On the bright side, there was no metal in the pan, nor any black sludge.
Guess the previous owners were good to it.