Fuel system issue, Read Immediately [Archive]

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DEFYANT

06-08-2006, 12:03 PM

Today I had to bring in my 2004 CVPI for service. The car just turned 40K miles and set off the CEL. It had a rough idle and hesitation while cruising. A mechanic came out and read the code to find the rear cylinders (4&8) were misfiring. And the engine was running lean.

The suspected cause? Ethanol blended gas! My car it the umpteenth car to come in with these symptoms. Turns out we just switched over from the MTBE blend. What’s the difference? MTBE blended fuel displaced water, leaving it in the bottom of the tanks. The Ethanol blend we are all using now absorbs the water in the fuel. It sits at a certain level in the storage tank (not at the bottom) and is pumped to the customer’s car. Our fuel pump sends it to our engines where the junk corrodes our fuel rails near the 4 & 8 cylinders and plugs up our fuel injectors. The fuel filters do not catch it all – especially if they are old. They have not seen this problem on cars with the return style fuel system. They believe the junk in the gas is simply getting stuck in the rails
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The fix? New fuel rails! Cars that do not have this problem, or have it fixed, will have the fuel filters changed at EVERY oil change.
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They have a fuel rail split open at the shop. It shows all the corrosion (Rust?) at the rear of the rail. I will try to get some pics for you to see.
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On a side note, if this happens to you, it is not necessary to replace the fuel injectors. It is possible to clean them out and reuse them.<o:p></o:p>
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JVJ

06-08-2006, 12:13 PM

Will This Happen To My 2002 Lx Sport Cv????

RoyLPita

06-08-2006, 12:55 PM

Will This Happen To My 2002 Lx Sport Cv????

It is a crap shoot.

Welcome aboard. Enjoy the site.

juno

06-08-2006, 01:17 PM

Thanks for the heads up!

Does anyone have a site for which states/stations are dispensing ethanol?

Bluerauder

06-08-2006, 01:20 PM

Today I had to bring in my 2004 CVPI for service.

[FONT=Arial]The Ethanol blend we are all using now absorbs the water in the fuel. It sits at a certain level in the storage tank (not at the bottom) and is pumped to the customer’s car. Our fuel pump sends it to our engines where the junk corrodes our fuel rails near the 4 & 8 cylinders and plugs up our fuel injectors. [/FONT
OK, now I understand how this ethanol blend saves fuel and is better for the environment. On any given day about 10% of the vehicles will be in the shop instead of out on the road. :rolleyes:

Sorry to hear about your fuel troubles Charlie. Is this a company car ??

DEFYANT

06-08-2006, 01:50 PM

I just got back from the shop. Yep... new fuel rails are being installed as I write this. And for good measure, they are replacing a fuel injector since it was FUBAR.

This was the company car, not the Marauder.

Thay have not seen this problem on any cars prior to the 03/04 model years. I think the 02s have the return style fuel system. The junk in the fuel rails gets recycled back to the tank, so does not sit and rot. With increased fuel filter swaps, the junk in the gas should be caught.

jgc61sr2002

06-08-2006, 02:49 PM

John - Welcme to the MM site.:welcome1:

Hotrauder

06-08-2006, 03:36 PM

ex00p71

06-08-2006, 04:05 PM

I thought the Crown Victoria and Grand Marquis are flex fuel vehicles?

duhtroll

06-08-2006, 04:29 PM

What about the millions of us who have been using this fuel with no problems for the last couple decades?

Even alternating between ethanol and non-ethanol fuels.

In several cars.

For several years.

This sounds pretty fishy to me.

Even *if* the switch is what caused the problem, it sounds like it was created by the excess water from your previous fuel, and not by the ethanol.

Seems to me in Maryland (where temps can dip a bit in the winter) you wouldn't *want* all that water in your tank to begin with. But what do I know?

kj31067

06-08-2006, 05:31 PM

is this with e-85 or the 3% to 5 % mix that is around? it is my understanding that e-85 is limited in it s distribution . i have read that they mix the eth with the gas at the last step before distribution because the eth loves to suck up the water that is hanging out in the pipework from the petroleum production that was previously done in the same place.. if the ethanol thing is going to work they are going to have to dedicate time and cash to make this work. read the latest car and driver mag .. good write -up

kj31067

06-08-2006, 05:37 PM

if i run my marauder every day or every two days ,will i build up the corrosion ? gas is still a petroleum product, albeit semi -watered down, so to speak. just wondering?

DEFYANT

06-08-2006, 06:17 PM

Our fuel systems are comparable to the CVs and GMs.

Fishy or not, the machanic that I spoke to has around 20 years experiance working at the local Ford dealer and almost 10 years working for the company that maintains all the county vehicles. I have described other driveablity issues with two other Fords to him. He got it right both times. Oh, and when I brought my old 02 CVPI in with an idle problem, he accurately diagnoised the IAC to be faulty.

Either way, this is what I found out. It COULD affect us, it could not. I hope we are all in the clear and this was just a tank maintenance issue here.

DEFYANT

06-08-2006, 06:20 PM

if i run my marauder every day or every two days ,will i build up the corrosion ? gas is still a petroleum product, albeit semi -watered down, so to speak. just wondering?

I seem to run my company car almost 200 miles a day. FWIW

JMan

06-09-2006, 03:55 AM

Defyant,
Does your agency have it's own fueling storage or are you buying fuel on the road (a la PHH) at local gas stations? Alcohol and water are miscible and it tends to carry otherwise dormant water through. That de-icer you Yanks use is primarily ethanol. In a petroleum only environ, that water would sit at the bottom of a fuel storage system unless run down to that level. That goes for fuel storage or vehicle tanks. I suppose one thing we should do is not allow fuel levels to drop below 1/4 tank for the time being (Or ever for that matter!). I would be willing to bet this is a case by case situation that boils down to where fueling is done and the characteristics of the driver's fueling habits. I wish everybody well on this . . . :popcorn:

J

DEFYANT

06-09-2006, 05:50 AM

We have our own fuel storage, shared with all county vehicles.

Keeping the tank above the 1/4 mark will not help this problem. With this new mix of fuel, any water in the tank is suspended at a certian level. I do not know what that level is. For the purpose of this conversation, call it half a tank. If the station you get your gas from had water in the tank before the new blend, when the new stuff is put in the tank, the water will settle at the half way mark.

JMan

06-09-2006, 06:25 AM

[quote=DEFYANT]We have our own fuel storage, shared with all county vehicles.

[quote]

That's good news for the citizens in your county!

What you said about fuel/water is true. The water is stirred up during the fuel drop into the storage tanks. The ethanol will hold it in suspension throughout that load of fuel! That's one way of getting rid of the water in the tanks, albeit a bad way! They need to fill-up all the old carburetted big-block trucks to get rid of it all.

Best luck,

J

David Morton

06-09-2006, 12:51 PM

Water is heavier than gasoline so it will always settle at the bottom of the tank, which is, BTW, where the sock sucks up the fuel to begin with. Generally, if there's gasoline there it will go through first but often the water will slosh past the sock and go through to the filter. Most of the water will stay in the filter if it is changed frequently and this is where most fuel system problems regarding water or other contamination can be traced, not changing the filter often enough. I've changed a couple hundred fuel filters in my day and there's almost always some beaded up water there on the floor on top of the gas.

I'm getting mine changed next week at 25K.

About ethanol blended fuels. You can easly test how much ethanol is in your gas. Take a graduated test tube (with marks for amounts on the side) and put, say 25 millilitres of the fuel in question and 25 ml of regular coolant. Shake it up and let sit for a day, shaking it up every now and then. Next day, the coolant will have absorbed most of the ethanol and it will have more volume than the gasoline. For example if there's now 27 ml of coolant and 23 gasoline, then 2/25ths (or 8%) of the fuel was ethanol.

Because of it's affinity of water, ethanol is problematic as an additive for gasoline. In the previous example, there's no way of knowing how much of that 8% was ethanol and how much was water. I don't remember the figure but at some point the water/ethanol percentage causes the blend to precipitate out of the gas altogether and causes most of these type of problems. That's why it's best to replace fuel filters frequently or use water dispersants that dissolve the stuff back into the gas.

Also, the best way to avoid water is to buy your fuel at the busiest gas station in town. I'd cringe pumping fuel from Ma Kettle's Dry Goods in Cross Creek Junction, Mississippi because it might be from the load she bought back in '96 and chock-full-o-"NUTS! The mechanic wants $500 to fix a simple miss".

Marauderjack

06-09-2006, 01:53 PM

Why not just install a water separator filter with a see through bowl??:rolleyes:

Then you can not only see the water but you can tap it off as necessary!!:beer:

Marauderjack:burnout:

MENINBLK

06-09-2006, 02:14 PM

DEFYANT

06-09-2006, 06:03 PM

Charlie,

This can't be true.
New York, California and Connecticut have been running Ethanol blend for a few years now.

There are no such problems with Ethanol blended fuels.

Water is dispersed througout the fuel, not at just one level.
That vehicle has probably run low on fuel, and drew up water into the fuel system.
For it to affect 2 cylinders makes no sense.
We have a returnless fuels system.
Pressure goes in one side and the rail ends on the other side.

Maryland just made the switch. The vehicle in question is my assigned vehicle that I have had for over a year now. We never had this problem until we switched to the new blend of fuel. There was probably water in the storage tank that was mixed into the new blend gas.

On top of that, I doubt gov't agencies buy the best fuel available :rolleyes: .

The inside of the fuel rails on my car, and many others, were rusted. Subsequently clogging the rear fuel injectors. I saw the parts with my own eyes.

Bottom line - I'll be changing the Marauders fuel filter more often.

jgc61sr2002

06-09-2006, 06:37 PM

The NYPD Highway Patrol units use premium fuel while all others use regular.
According to the fuel truck driver, "They pick up fuel at the same depot as the name brand gasolines".

David Morton

06-09-2006, 11:09 PM

Bottom line - I'll be changing the Marauders fuel filter more often.That's the right answer! Give the man a cigar!

And to Marauderjack, a water separator would work fine. It is the technical solution to the specific problem. Actually a water separator is a fuel filter with a draincock on the bottom, but it isn't the right answer because it'll cost more to have one installed (and serviced with new filters) than you would save over simply doubling the fuel filter change regimen, and that's assuming you just use it for the filter and toss the factory setup completely. Conversely a fuel filter is also a water separator without the draincock, just replace it more often to be sure you get that water out before it floods the element. In most cases, a regularly scheduled filter change is often enough. I do it twice as often because I believe it's cheap insurance, like changing the engine oil every 2500 miles (filter every other time), line flushing the transmission fluid every 25,000 and servicing the axle every 25,000. Fluids are the most critical parts of almost any machine. We don't think of the gas as a lubricant because it isn't, so we tend to overlook the importance of making sure it's maintenence component, the filter, is changed regularly.

Personally I think there's a stealth "planned obsolescence" department at the manufacturers telling us to change oil every 5000 miles and such. Hell man, we're burning gasoline, the by-product of the combustion of it is carbon. Abrasive, sooty carbon that cannot be filtered out and the more saturated the oil is with it the more our engines wear out. Hell, as soon as it looks dark that's when we should change it.

That reminds me. I must get some DOT 5.1 racing brake fluid and flush out the old (12,000 miles) stuff. It's starting to get dark (not from carbon, from heat breaking it down) and that's the signal to replace brake fluid.

I KNOW! I'll put on the line-lock I've been planning for the front brake lines later this summer and do the fluid flush then.

That's the ticket.

rayjay

06-10-2006, 06:04 AM

The NYPD Highway Patrol units use premium fuel while all others use regular.
According to the fuel truck driver, "They pick up fuel at the same depot as the name brand gasolines".

A few years back we were having problems with our CVPIs not performing properly. Turns out the agency was buying the "economy" grade fuel, 86 octane, to save money. They didn't save much -or- anything when the fuel consumption and engine repairs increased. :rolleyes:

mtnh

06-12-2006, 08:18 AM

My wife may have run into this problem. The Marauder would not fire up this morning, coughing and sputtering and stalling. She called me with the audio. I had her hold the throttle to the floor and start it, it started then stalled, and I had her do it one more time. It started up with lots of chugging . I had her drive it up our street, which is a slight uphill grade, in first gear, test the throttle resonse, still not smooth, a bit of power, though, and 2 minutes into the trip, it was mostly cured. Sounded like possible water in the gas, she just filled up on friday and had not driven the car since saturday. I'm buying a new fuel filter and a few bottles of dry gas (isopropyl alcohol) to have on had, one bottle will be used immediately.

Thanks very much for posting this info, Mr. Defyant.

Mike

SergntMac

06-12-2006, 01:39 PM

hbarrett

06-12-2006, 04:13 PM

Sounds like an IAC problem to me. My CV went through a IAC every25k or so.
My wife may have run into this problem. The Marauder would not fire up this morning, coughing and sputtering and stalling. She called me with the audio. I had her hold the throttle to the floor and start it, it started then stalled, and I had her do it one more time. It started up with lots of chugging . I had her drive it up our street, which is a slight uphill grade, in first gear, test the throttle resonse, still not smooth, a bit of power, though, and 2 minutes into the trip, it was mostly cured. Sounded like possible water in the gas, she just filled up on friday and had not driven the car since saturday. I'm buying a new fuel filter and a few bottles of dry gas (isopropyl alcohol) to have on had, one bottle will be used immediately.

Thanks very much for posting this info, Mr. Defyant.

Mike

DEFYANT

06-12-2006, 05:36 PM

Thanks very much for posting this info, Mr. Defyant.

Mike

No prob Mike, but I am inclined to suspect the IAC also. ;)

mtnh

06-12-2006, 06:42 PM

It had a severe stumble at all speeds off idle until whatever was wrong cleared in 2 to 3 minutes. Not the iac, but thanks. It's all right now.

hbarrett

06-12-2006, 07:25 PM

Great! I hope that the problem is gone and does not return.
It had a severe stumble at all speeds off idle until whatever was wrong cleared in 2 to 3 minutes. Not the iac, but thanks. It's all right now.

David Morton

06-13-2006, 06:11 PM

Try a pint of SeaFoam? It's a gas additive available at your FLAP, cost is 6 bucks per pint, but I tested it not long ago and picked up 2 MPG, and dumped a lot of cold start issues. I would suggest adding a pint to three or four consecutive fill ups for the initial reconditioning of the system, and after that, one in every four fill ups maintains that nicely.Yup! That's the stuff for when you already have a bad water contamination problem.

But you'll never need it if you change that fuel filter every 25K and buy your gas at the place that sells the most. Doing that will also nip a lot of other problems in the bud before they even get started.

Maintenance. Can't say enough good things about it.