5W-20 warranty issues [Archive] - MercuryMarauder.net Forums

TAF

05-07-2003, 07:05 AM

Originally posted by prchrman
called my local Ford dealer (not Mercury dealer bought at 35 miles away) to get 2nd oil change...asked if they had full synthetic...he replied he did not...only blend...he stated if I bring in full synthetic they would change it...wanting dealership to change as to have ducks in a row if warranty issues come up...asked about voiding the warranty by using full synthetic...he replies it will not void warranty if it is 5W-20 but would void with any other weight!?!?!?...has anyone else ran into this...might be a heads up to all using other weights...going to Mobil 1, 5W-20...whew this warranty stuff is unbelievable...:confused:

Find another dealer, Willie...the statement above is :bs: from that Ford dealer.

WolfeBros

05-07-2003, 07:08 AM

It pays to know the SM.
Thats one this week that will void the warranty for wrong oil and one that will void it for Silverstar headlamps.:rolleyes:

I am waiting for some moron SM to tell me he will void my warranty because I CAN read oil pressure in my car.
Bastages

RF Overlord

05-07-2003, 07:10 AM

You know what? There are SO MANY different stories out there on what exactly will/will not void a warranty, that I refuse to pay any attention to anything a dealer says in that regard...it's obviously a crap-shoot either way...

I'LL SAY IT AGAIN...THE MANUAL DOES NOT USE THE WORD "REQUIRED" IN RELATION TO 5W-20.

MAD-3R

05-07-2003, 07:13 AM

You know, of all the problems I've had with warrenty, that was the one thing on my side. I switched to Mobil 1 at 3000 miles.

LincMercLover

05-07-2003, 07:24 AM

Originally posted by RF Overlord
I'LL SAY IT AGAIN...THE MANUAL DOES NOT USE THE WORD "REQUIRED" IN RELATION TO 5W-20.

Yah... but my SM thinks RECOMMENDED means REQUIRED. :rolleyes:

RF Overlord

05-07-2003, 07:26 AM

Originally posted by MAD-3R
You know, of all the problems I've had with warrenty, that was the one thing on my side. I switched to Mobil 1 at 3000 miles.

MAD, I don't understand...how was that helpful to your side?

RF Overlord

05-07-2003, 07:30 AM

What I don't get is that the dealer sez you WON'T void the warranty by using full synthetic oil, even though Ford DOESN'T SELL a full synthetic, but you WILL void the warranty by using 5W-30, when 5W-20 is not "required" in the manual?

:bs: ...makes no sense... :bs:

MAD-3R

05-07-2003, 07:38 AM

I should have said it was one thing they were happy to see.

TAF

05-07-2003, 07:39 AM

Look...

I haven't said much of anything on all these posts about "Warranty Issues" so here is my nickles worth -

Do you risk having warranty claims denied by modding your car in ANY way? Yes

Will you fight the SAME fight on a potential warranty claim even if you DON'T do ANYTHING outside the normal recommendations, use and ownership of your vehicle? Yes

Are ALL companies (automotive or not) strapped for cash and looking to cut-back right now? Yes

Would I question the validity of someones claim against MY product if I had knowledge of miss-handling, miss-use, etc.? Yes

Are there more "mod-friendly" dealers out there to work with? Yes

Is this a car that MOST L/M dealers were not ready to handle as far as the clientele and performance structure? Yes

If you have any doubts about needs or problems for your first 36 mos./36K miles...don't do anything to your car other than what is recommended under normal use and ownership.

*TAF steps down from his soap-box*

LincMercLover

05-07-2003, 07:40 AM

From what my SM said, the "heavy" oil will starve the cams because it's SO heavy. Right... I'd belive that if I was wanting 10W, but 5W20 to a 30, come on! He also said he sees a lot of PI's come in with blown motors due to them running too heavy of an oil. I told him he's comparing two different cars, two different motors, two different driving conditions. And probably the PI's WERE runnign 10W. So yah, he's a moron...

prchrman

05-07-2003, 08:13 AM

The Ford dealer I talked to is a SVT dealer and have sold lots of cobras and lightenings...they are not that unfriendly to speed lovers...my thought with 6 year/72000 mile warranty is that I am covering myself...it also makes me think that 5W-20 make be the best oil for my ride...look I do not have the funds to drop in another motor or whatever and we have seen how far you can go with a dealer on mods, etc...I am just giving a heads up on what a fairly good dealer informed me...yes I do not want to give them a reason...:up: now what about window tint and SS inserts?? hmmm...JK

Blue Marauder

05-07-2003, 08:18 AM

Any thoughts on using 0W-20 Mobil 1?

Menace

05-07-2003, 08:46 AM

Its my car,bought and paid for and I'll do what I want to with it, not what they want me to do! They can gft. :coolman:

prchrman

05-07-2003, 08:50 AM

Originally posted by Menace
Its my car,bought and paid for and I'll do what I want to with it, not what they want me to do! They can gft. :coolman:

yeah me and ford credit...must be nice...$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

RF Overlord

05-07-2003, 08:53 AM

Here's a question....

What oil is in mensrea's motor?
What oil is in Lidio's motor?
What oil is in Sean Hyland's TV-car?

TAF

05-07-2003, 08:57 AM

Originally posted by RF Overlord
Here's a question....

What oil is in mensrea's motor?
What oil is in Lidio's motor?
What oil is in Sean Hyland's TV-car?

AHHHH...Quite a profound question from Tobor...let's just hope those guys look at this thread...because...frankly, they could probably care less about a thread discussing warranty issues:P

NickLee

05-07-2003, 10:06 AM

Took mine in for first oil change and I asked them to use 5W-30, no problem.

merc406

05-07-2003, 10:53 AM

How much oil does the oil pan hold?
With oil pressure's you guy's have, what 90psi, I think I read, that pump would suck it dry in no time without it being like water.
Remember the FE's that needed an extra quart above the line marked on the stick?
My 5.0 I'll throw in an extra quart when on the highway while traveling on vacation even with the double oil filters so the pan doesn't go dry.

LincMercLover

05-07-2003, 11:00 AM

Originally posted by Blue Marauder
Any thoughts on using 0W-20 Mobil 1?

Less you live in Antarctica, then I wouldn't even consider a 0W.

RoyLPita

05-07-2003, 11:11 AM

There was a TSB on the earlier 4.6s ('91-'93) that stated that using 10w-40 could make the check valve in the oil pump wear out and the oil filter balloon up. Just my .02 here.

LincMercLover

05-07-2003, 11:18 AM

Yah, and 10W40 is HEAVY oil!

vaderv

05-07-2003, 12:29 PM

Its only 0 weight when its extremely cold lml...

Fourth Horseman

05-07-2003, 12:54 PM

I mentioned this in another thread, as well, but when my dealer changed my oil once they put in 5w30 synthetic blend. Hard to believe that 5w30 is going to void your warranty if some dealers around the country are putting it in.

prchrman

05-07-2003, 01:33 PM

Originally posted by merc406
How much oil does the oil pan hold?
With oil pressure's you guy's have, what 90psi, I think I read, that pump would suck it dry in no time without it being like water.
Remember the FE's that needed an extra quart above the line marked on the stick?
My 5.0 I'll throw in an extra quart when on the highway while traveling on vacation even with the double oil filters so the pan doesn't go dry.

very interesting...service manager told me to bring 6 quarts instead of 5...

RF Overlord

05-07-2003, 01:51 PM

Owner's manual says 6 qts w/filter, 5.5 w/o filter.

I do my own oil & filter changes...it takes just under 6 qts...

studio460

05-07-2003, 02:39 PM

I just had the dealer put in 6 quarts of Mobil 1 5W-30 not even knowing that the car came with 5W-20 synthetic blend (is this the weight the manual recommends?)! Is there really much difference between a 5W-20 and a 5W-30 weight oil? I live in Southern California, meaning moderate temperatures, but drive all day in stop and go city traffic. Is the 5W-30 the same weight everyone else who's using Mobil 1 using?

jgc61sr2002

05-07-2003, 03:38 PM

I was going to use Mobil 1 5 W 30, but after speaking to a friend(Ford Dealership) a service manager stated " I would use the oil recommended by FMC ", and that is 5 W 20 synthetic blend. He also said " that if there is a major problem FMC will do a total inspection , looking to find something that is not stock ".At present I have no plans to modify the MM. IMHO. John

RF Overlord

05-07-2003, 04:04 PM

Originally posted by NBC Shooter
I just had the dealer put in 6 quarts of Mobil 1 5W-30 not even knowing that the car came with 5W-20 synthetic blend

Obviously YOUR dealer didn't think it would void the warranty...

5W-20 synthetic blend (is this the weight the manual recommends?)!

Yes.

Is the 5W-30 the same weight everyone else who's using Mobil 1 using?

haven't done a poll, but it seems that ~75% of us are using 5W-30, ~24% 5W-20, and 1% "other" (10W-30, etc) in fact, maybe I WILL do a poll...

Bigdogjim

05-07-2003, 05:25 PM

*TAF steps down from his soap-box* [/B][/QUOTE]

Hey get the man a :beer: He got my vote :beer:

Well said young man here here :P :D

chapel1

05-07-2003, 05:39 PM

I'm using 5W-20W and having the dealership do the changes. And I'm comfortable with the sythetic-blend Motor craft oil.But then again I'm not driving my car all the time and haven't done any "Mods".I believe the oil is as stated before is for "CAFE" complaiance.
I have always gone with the thinking the harder you drive the better or more often your maintence should be.And if I was running my car with "Mods" or in a hot enviroment I would use a 5W-30Wblend or synthetic oil.:)

TripleTransAm

05-07-2003, 06:38 PM

Funny, we were just having this discussion on another list. Here's the jist:

The three lines represent:
SAE 40 * * * * * * *
SAE 10W-40 @ @ @ @ @ @ @
SAE 10 # # # # # # #

Hi Visc.
|*
| *
| *
| *
| *
| *
| *
| *
| *
| *
|# @ *
| # @ *
| # @ *
| # @ *
| # @ *
| # @ *
| # @*
| #
| #
| #
| #
| #
| #
| #
| #
| #
| #
|-----------------------------------------
Lo Visc, Hi Temps
Lo Temps

You can see how viscosity drops as temperature rises, and the 'slope'
of the viscosity line is essentially the same for all single weight
oils.

The multiweight oil has a different 'slope' such that at low temps
10W-40 has the same viscosity as straight 10 and at higher temps
10W-40 has the same viscosity as straight 40. Actually there are
specific temperatures that the multi-weights are measured at: 10W-40
matches the viscosity of 10W at 0 deg F and the same as 40W at 210 deg
F. What this means is that multi-weight oils exhibit less change in
viscosity as temperature changes, providing the benefits of lighter
oil at lower temps and thicker oil at higher temps.

This should help explain how the multi-weight oils behave at the two reference temps. 5W-20 and 5W-30 behave as 5 weight oil at the cold reference temp, but one behaves like a 20 weight at the higher reference temp and the other like a 30 weight.

SergntMac

05-08-2003, 02:45 AM

Owner's manual directions and Dealer advice "insight" aside, someone went to the trouble of marking the oil inlet cap "5W20."

That's good enough for me.

tetsu

05-08-2003, 06:24 AM

I've been agonizing of this stupid oil issue since I got my car in June. I was finally prepared to switch to Mobil 1 5w30 but after talking with my service manager (who was going to put in whatever oil I bring him) I decided to go with 5w20.

Now, I just need to find some Royal Purple before my appt!

Johnny

RF Overlord

05-08-2003, 06:45 AM

I just want everyone to understand that I am not trying to "convert" anyone here...I am simply supplying information that y'all can use to make your own INFORMED decisions, not based on hearsay or opinion.

This do¢ument (http://www.epa.gov/otaq/cert/dearmfr/ccd0112.pdf) describes the procedure the EPA has required any manufacturer wishing to use 5W-20 oil to follow. It clear states that they (the EPA) would approve using 5W-20 oil in the emissions and fuel economy certification tests only if this procedure is followed.

Of particular interest to this group are the sections entitled: "Owner's Manual Language" and "Labelling the Oil Filler Cap".

Also of interest is the closing statement:

"This information will be used by EPA to determine whether approval of the use of 5W20 engine oil should be extended beyond the 2003 model year."

If 5W-20 oil were REQUIRED for warranty purposes, why would the EPA be deciding whether the manufacturers can use it?

Blue Marauder

05-08-2003, 06:55 AM

Does anyone make a FULL synthetic 5W-20 oil?

Thomas C Potter

05-08-2003, 08:09 AM

Mobil 1 or Amsoil, maybe FORD, stay with 5x20 at least for 366 days. Brother-in -law had problems that dealer was difficult to deal with because of 10w30.

tomd

05-08-2003, 08:15 AM

I give up I don't know what to do anymore! It is just too risky and I don’t want to void my warranty with Ford, so am just going to park my car in the garage and look at it. Maybe I’ll sit in it now and then and make engine noises!
:alone: :bigcry: :shake: :nono:

:lol:

RF Overlord

05-08-2003, 08:17 AM

Originally posted by Thomas C Potter
, stay with 5x20 at least for 366 days.

I've noticed others, too, use the "366 days" number before doing mods (or whatever)...

Last I knew from 3rd grade, that was one year (and a day)...if our drivetrain warranty is 3 years/36,000 miles, what is the significance of 366 days?

prchrman

05-08-2003, 08:24 AM

Last I knew from 3rd grade, that was one year (and a day)...

we will probably be hashing it out with a dealer if issues "forever and a day"

Blue Marauder

05-08-2003, 10:19 AM

Originally posted by Thomas C Potter
Mobil 1 or Amsoil, maybe FORD, stay with 5x20 at least for 366 days. Brother-in -law had problems that dealer was difficult to deal with because of 10w30.

Mobil 1 makes a 0W-20. Motorcraft's (Ford) 5W-20 is only a synthetic blend. Don't know about Amsoil, but I had a bad experience with Amsoil 20 years ago have have refused to use it since.

LincMercLover

05-08-2003, 11:05 AM

Interesting... I'm sticking with my Mobil 1 Full Synthetic 5W30, but I'm rebelious like that...

MMM2003

05-08-2003, 03:07 PM

My Dealer will only do 5W-20 per Ford spec's, they say.
Since I'm stuck, by having prepaid service coupons for 5 yrs. (finance term), that's what I'll get.

SergntMac

05-09-2003, 03:08 PM

Okay, okay, let me up! I give! Uncle!

Let me ask y'all something, because it's something I just don't get. We have two very long threads on oil weight and composite going on right now, a poll with a growing thread, and another thread on oil additives. What I don't understand, is what y'all are pursuing? If common sense prevails, where is the common sense on this topic, and how do I define that?

In my book, oil is oil, and clean oil is supreme over all other considerations. I may be weird for doing this, but I change my oil and filter every 2K. I patronize my dealer, use his recommended stuff, and get it all on the record. I drive hard, but don't rack up a lot of miles, and by end of the year, I've had four oil changes to your three, and I'm still spending less than y'all.

When you reach for these special blends, and change every 3K, are you not throwing your money away? If you stretch that oil to 5K, which I think you could do safely, you may break even with me. But, I haven't seen many here promote 5K oil changes, nor in the other threads mentioned above.

So, I have to ask...What's the point here? What are we collectively accomplishing by using the exotic oil blends, but still changing them before their time? Anyone?

I would like to add that I change oil and filter every 2K because of a bad experience with Mobil 1 graphite in the late '70s. Back then, I owned a '77 Diplomat, and used the "hundred thousand oil change" miracle Mobile 1 graphite. I had to add oild every so often, but not change it, according to the advertising/marketing program of that time. At just over 32K, the motor seized, no real damage other than it was just "clogged." Inches of rubbery slidge in the 318's valley. Top end rebuild, out of pocket, all from crap oil, and my trust of responsible advertising. Now it's every 2K, needed or not. That's my view today, but I don't get your views. I think it can't be much difference between going 2K or 3K in oil at large, why spend more for exotic blends too?

Okay, I asked for it...Got my NoMex on, go for it.

RF Overlord

05-09-2003, 04:22 PM

Otay:

:flamer:

J/K....

There are some very good articles I've read on line, I'll try and remember where and provide the links, if anyone wants...

Leaving aside the environmental issues, I think most will agree synthetic oils ARE superior to dino oil; they are also CAPABLE of extended drain intervals. Part of the problem is that the oil companies don't WANT you to extend that interval, as it hits them right in the pocketbook. And, since Jiffy Lube (at least; there may be others) is OWNED by Pennzoil/Quaker State, THEY most certainly don't want you to go more than the customary 3000 miles...

I'm not going to postulate some nefarious conspiracy between the "Big Three" and the major oil companies, but they have all known for some time that "we have the technology" to extend drain intervals to 10,000 miles or more, for dino oil, and 25,000 miles for synthetic. Then why DON'T they? I don't have that answer...

What it boils down to is this: if the manufacturer will warranty a motor only if the oil is changed at a specific interval (or more often), then we have no real choice but to do so. Another factor to consider is that peoples driving habits vary wildly, so what may be an "acceptable" change interval for the travelling salesperson who drives 90% at highway speeds, may be totally unacceptable for Aunt Minnie, are we all agreed here? Then how are we going to convince Auntie that she needs to have 3 times the number of oil changes as salesman Dan, but she only drives a quarter of the miles he does?

So: everything is figured for the lowest common denominator...just tell everyone to change their oil at 3000 miles, and we cut down on customer complaints and seized-motor replacements. And threaten them, to boot! "If you don't do as we say, kiss your warranty goodbye!"

In summation, using full synthetic and going 15, 000 miles may very well be just fine for some people. But you can't do it and protect your rights under the warranty...so what do you do? You can say "To HECK with the warranty" and you may indeed win. Or not. Or, you can use the best oil you can afford and change it at the "recommended" interval, and know in your heart that you've done everything you can.

Sorry for the extreme "Sarge-length" post... I'm done. :D

WolfeBros

05-09-2003, 04:32 PM

Well the way I see it......its like Ford or Chevy? What brand of gas do you use? What beer do you like? Type of tires, mufflers, sparkplugs? Oil is gonna be the same way. We will never come to an agreement on it. I have changed oil every 3,000 since before I had a drivers license so it is what I have become use to. The point on the oil is well taken too. It is by far the best stuff we have ever had in our engines. The additives last longer. We don't get as much acid and combustion by products in the oil as we used to due to the pollution measures, running them hotter, leaner, no carburetors ect....

I have used a synthetic blend the last 10 years. Mostly 5W30.
I made the choice to go to a full synthetic this time because:
#1. I have a new engine that is broken in and now is the time
to put a synthetic in it.
#2. The Mobil One have been around forever and is well proven.
#3. I personally feel that the 5W20 weight is too friggin thin for
the application and how I use the car and the environment in
which I use it. This comes from alot of years in building and running my own engines. I have never had an oil related problem.
Now the 4.6 DOHC is a new beast for me and I am taking a bit of an educated guess on changing weights beyond FoMoCo's recommendation. I think they did it for CAFE reasons only. Thats me......y'all think what ya want.

Oil has always been used as an engine coolant. The thinner weights really help with the heat transfer and maybe the engineers are depending on that cooling factor more than ever.
I know that the difference between 5W20 and 5W30 is fairly moot. I can tell by the oil pressure when the engine gets to temperature that it is not much of a factor. I see no difference on the gauge.

I know some people that never change a synthetic oil. They just change the filter at regular intervals and top off the crankcase.
Thats not for me but I can tell you that Jaguar goes 10K miles between oil changes with a full synthetic blend. And those are very expensive engines to replace under warranty.

So can you change you oil too often? Probably so for reasons of ecology and money saved. I do know that your engine doesn't need it as often as we change it. But ya know.........I have always changed before the factory interval and always will. (remember changing spark plugs at 10K miles.....I did them at 5k back then too)

Whats key here is staying with a known national brand of oil and a good filter with a GOOD antidrain back valve, and not straying too far from the recommended weight. Some of you with 0W30 and 10W40 scare me but hey its your money. Use it for oil or an engine replacement. Me......I feel safe with a 5W30 but heck its my opinion and I could be wrong. :D

RF Overlord

05-09-2003, 04:37 PM

I like WolfeBros "sarge-length" post better than mine...

Rock on, Sam... :banana: :rock:

jgc61sr2002

05-09-2003, 05:11 PM

The life of the engine depends on oil changes. Synthetic, Synthetic Blend, or regular oil as long as you change it every 3,000 miles or 3 months the chances of engine failure are greatly reduced. John:)

WolfeBros

05-09-2003, 05:16 PM

John said very well in one sentence what it took 3 of us 17 paragraphs to say.

Budweiser, Miller Light or Sam Adams.......who cares?
Its your money and your taste. Change early and often.
Cheers eh ??:beer:

jgc61sr2002

05-09-2003, 05:30 PM

Thanks Wolfe. John:D

TripleTransAm

05-09-2003, 06:38 PM

Originally posted by WolfeBros
#3. I personally feel that the 5W20 weight is too friggin thin for the application and how I use the car and the environment in which I use it.

Warning: long post ahead outlining a personal debate about oil I've been having with me, myself and I...

There are several sites on the web that deal with discussions on Ford and their choice to go 5W20 in the past year or so. Same with Honda. The focus (no pun intended) of these sites is on how the engines themselves haven't changed, the 5W20 hasn't changed, yet all of a sudden Ford is hammering people if they use 5W30 as specified previously. That sounds suspicious, in my opinion. But... if 5W20 is sufficient for our use, so be it. Problem is: we can never prove otherwise.

As I posted in another message, the 5W20 and 5W30 behave IDENTICALLY at a lower reference temperature (I forget what it is), so you can be pretty sure that they both provide good cold start protection (ie. flowing up to the heads and valvetrain quickly at cold start up). 10W30 might be a bit thicker at the cold reference temp... too thick, though? Again, I don't know... from 15+ years ago, the big rant back then was that makers were spec'ing 5W30 instead of 10W30 simply for cold-start economy issues!!! Sounds like the same argument all over.

Heck, I've run 10W30 in my GTA for the past ten years (ever since I bought it) and in fact only a few years ago realized the manual calls for 5W30! But being a traditional small block Chevy with OHV layout, there's no crucial valvetrain-related oil requirements. With the MM, this might not be so (as LML mentioned, I believe)... so, in MY opinion (and it's only a slightly educated guess on my part), I'll stick to the 5 weight oil for startup.

That being said, then there's the decision between 5W20 and 5W30. The 30 is thicker obviously at the hotter reference temperature. Too thick? Well, has the 4.6l DOHC oiling system or block casting been changed in any way in the past 2 years that would preclude ever again running a 30 weight oil at higher temperatures and henceforth only using 20 weight? Some of you are in a better position to answer this question... if the answer is no, then it proves either:
1) Ford spec'ed 5W20 only for CAFE reasons.
2) all the poor sods running 30 weight oil at operating temperatures in pre-2003 engines were experiencing engine failure from too thick an oil (and honestly I have NEVER heard of this happening).

So unless someone can prove that there was a fundamental functional reason why Ford would say 30 weight was too thick in operating temperature situations, I think I will probably stick with a 5W30 (in synthetic flavor, but that's something for the next post).

One more thing: the whole importance of oil weight at operating temperatures isn't so much how well it flows. From what I've read, the shafts (crankshaft, etc.) actually are suspended within their bearings by a thin sheet of oil under pressure. Hence the importance of an oil not too thin at that temperature (otherwise shaft to bearing contact will occur) and not too thick (otherwise flow will be compromised, resulting in oil starvation). That's why I'd like to make sure identical pre-2003 4.6l DOHC castings were working just fine on 5W30 oil before completely putting my money on the fuel economy reason as being the only one.

TAF

05-09-2003, 06:46 PM

Well done 3TA...a thorough and well thought out response.

TripleTransAm

05-09-2003, 07:01 PM

Originally posted by RF Overlord

In summation, using full synthetic and going 15, 000 miles may very well be just fine for some people.

Well, that's the problem. Marketing over the past 3 decades has misled people into thinking synthetic was some miracle oil. It is not. As I mentioned in my previous post, I am deciding on a full synthetic product, probably at 5W30 (especially heading into the hot summer months, and many web sites claiming fractions of a MPG increase in 5W20 over 5W30, nothing more).

My choice is related to oil longevity, but not for the popular reasons. Conventional multi-weight oils (ie. 5W30, etc.) require additives (viscosity modifiers) to achieve their schizophrenic properties. Schizo in that they behave as a particular weight of oil would at one temperature, then by the time you reach another temperature, they're behaving as another weight of oil would at that higher temp. Example: a 5W30 oil behaves like a straight 5 weight oil would at low temp 'X' but heat it up to a higher 'Y' temp and suddenly it's behaving like a 30 weight oil would at 'Y' temp.

As the conventional multi-viscosity oils age and break down, the modifiers become very abrasive (ash-like, I've been told) and actually degrade the lubricating properties of oil itself! Extreme situations bring about excessive sludge and coking and other nasty heat-and-age-related by products.

With synthetics, the base stocks are engineered with their multi-viscosity properties right from the start. No modifiers to break down, no vicious abrasives floating around in the oil, as the oil ages. Also, high temperature stability seems to reduce or eliminate sludge build-up and other heat-related oil breakdowns.

But combustion by-products STILL bypass piston rings and make it into the oil. Notice how modern engines STILL require a PCV system... that means there's some stuff getting by those tight ring seals (and they aren't totally tight, otherwise the engine would burn up!). Lots of it ends up in the oil, and oil filters just can't filter out that fine stuff.

So, in my opinion, you STILL need to change synthetics in fairly good time, otherwise your combustion byproducts are compromising your oil's lubricating properties. This is especially critical to me, since I like to occasionally visit higher RPMs even if not totally in an open-throttle situation.

So perhaps the synthetic oil can resist contamination long enough to maintain good lubricating properties well beyond the point where a conventional oil would have required changing due to viscosity break-down. I don't know where that point would be. But I don't want to find out.

My synthetic 5W30 comes out of my '98 WS6 fairly dark at 4000 miles. The oil itself is probably still great, but the thought of all that stuff in the oil makes me nervous and hence I stick to conventional-like oil change intervals.

Synthetic blends are a mystery to me, mostly because I don't know what percentages are used, and why. So I can't comment on them. They're probably great oils just like any other conventional or synthetic, especially if someone sticks to a decent oil change interval.

Side note: I pretty much have stuck to 2000-3000 mile oil changes in my GTA since owning it. I think I can blame this anal ritual for the fact that my small block Chevy engine does NOT leak from the rear main seal, and does NOT smoke at startup from dead valve seals, at 70000 miles. Both are ultra common SBC maladies, and I think I can attribute this to the fact I don't let the oil become corrupted enough to have the byproducts eat up my seals.

WolfeBros

05-09-2003, 07:06 PM

Anyone got a Ford shop manual ??
All we need to do is look up the rod and main bearing clearances since they made the change from 5W30 to 5W20 in our 4.6 DOHC engines. I bet nothing changed.

Very nice post 3TA. Your points are why I feel comfortable in going with the 5W30.

TripleTransAm

05-09-2003, 07:13 PM

Originally posted by TAF
Well done 3TA...a thorough and well thought out response.

Merci.
I didn't have a clue whether I'd make any sense, since this kind of discussion is best kept to a scenario of sitting around a table in a pub with copious amounts of beer on tap and me gesticulating feverishly in a manner best fitting my Portuguese roots.

The funniest thing about oil discussions is that an opinion about oil is like an *********... "everyone's got one". That's why I refuse to jump on any "which oil is better" bandwagon. Heck, even ambient temperatures can make a difference... perhaps a 5 weight startup oil is just TOO THICK for MM's stuck in -40 weather!! How's THAT for throwing a wrench into the discussion????? Some people in extreme high temp climates might even run straight weight oil! (like straight 20.... but again, maybe you still need 10W20 or something like that to provide "less-hot" startup thickness (thinness). )

And I just remembered something else... beyond those two reference points where they get the 2 viscosity numbers for multi-viscosity oils, synthetics and conventionals might behave totally different. One 5W30 might be twice as thick as another 5W30 at a temperature way BELOW the first (low) reference temperature. I think that low extreme is called the 'pour point' or something similar. ie. conventional is molasses at -40, synthetic may still flow somewhat better, etc.

I'm rambling again... anyways, that's about all I think I know about oil, I think. As RF mentioned, there are TONS of web sites with discussion on oil properties, just fire up a search engine (ie. google.com, etc.) and say goodbye to a few hours as you're stuck reading ALL SORTS of info (some good, some bad, but that's the nature of the internet).

TripleTransAm

05-09-2003, 07:21 PM

Originally posted by WolfeBros
Anyone got a Ford shop manual ??
All we need to do is look up the rod and main bearing clearances since they made the change from 5W30 to 5W20 in our 4.6 DOHC engines. I bet nothing changed.

One more comment, then I promise I'll shut up... I would think the internal oil passages would also have an effect on the oil thickness required for a given oil pressure. So, in other words, rod and main bearing clearances are one thing, but it would be nice to know if any changes were made in the castings themselves, particularly where the small oil passages reside throughout the block.

RF Overlord

05-09-2003, 07:23 PM

VERY nice posts, 3TA... :up:

One point of clarification...when I made the statement that synthetics and 15,000-mile changes may be fine for some people, I was referring to people who have their oil analysed, and who use high-quality filters, and change them (the filters) at the manufacturers recommended intervals, etc. I was not referring to the comfort level of the cars owner, but rather the fact that it is possible under the right conditions to do so.

merc406

05-09-2003, 07:37 PM

If your doing all city driving, change it around 3,000 miles, all highway ya can go 5,000. Combined city and highway somewhere in the middle. That being said I know some people that go 12,000 miles with the Mobil1 with oil filter changes at every 3,000 miles, with zero problems, but they are on the highway with their cars, sales people that put on 70,000 miles and more a year.

WolfeBros

05-09-2003, 09:08 PM

Originally posted by TripleTransAm
One more comment, then I promise I'll shut up... I would think the internal oil passages would also have an effect on the oil thickness required for a given oil pressure. So, in other words, rod and main bearing clearances are one thing, but it would be nice to know if any changes were made in the castings themselves, particularly where the small oil passages reside throughout the block.

Ok......I officially give and call Uncle. I know when I am pinned.
This can go on forever. I quit. Sarge where are ya ?? You have my back right ?? :D

TripleTransAm

05-10-2003, 04:35 AM

Originally posted by merc406
That being said I know some people that go 12,000 miles with the Mobil1 with oil filter changes at every 3,000 miles, with zero problems, but they are on the highway with their cars, sales people that put on 70,000 miles and more a year.

I've been told the idea with highway driving extending oil life is because the engine has time (and temperature) to burn off or evaporate away some of the contaminants in the oil (moisture, etc.). That's one reason why many people frown on starting a winter-stored vehicle every month and just idling it for a few minutes to "circulate the oil". I still do it, myself, although I tend to run for 50+ minutes while varying RPM... and I always change the oil immediately before officially going back on the road.

Just to put into perspective how subjective oil lifetime is:

My first winter car (when I purchased my 1987 GTA) was a 1984 Honda Civic, purchased for $500 Canadian (for two cars... I took engine and drivetrain from one (4cyl/manual) and stuck it in the car with the better body (originally 4cyl/semi-automatic)). About 110000 miles on drivetrain at the time.

I ran that car for 3.5 years, on the same oil. It never burned any oil so I never even had to top it off. The damned thing wouldn't die. And not any decent oil... we're talking the cheapest thing I could find at a cheap local gas station. I forget the grade, but I assume it was 10W30. The car was not meant to last more than a few months until spring came around, but by the end it had become my rain car as well, since I stopped driving the GTA in the rain by 1995.

In 1997 when the suspension-to-frame points rusted through (at about 175000 miles) the engine was torn down and things looked great. It was good enough to be donated to a Honda mechanic family friend who stuck it in his son's winter Honda station wagon (a 1987 this time). Last I heard, the engine is still chugging away no problems.

Now, I won't take a chance with any of my 'good' cars, but any time I start getting too jittery about missing my oil change interval by 500 miles or something, I like to stop and pinch myself just to remind myself things won't blow up over a *slight* deviation from my own preset interval.

TripleTransAm

05-10-2003, 04:37 AM

Originally posted by WolfeBros
Ok......I officially give and call Uncle. I know when I am pinned.
This can go on forever. I quit. Sarge where are ya ?? You have my back right ?? :D

Sorry, I don't know what I said to pin you, all I was intending to say is that I know we have Ford employees on here that would be able to tell us if the 4.6l block casting was changed in any way, which would justify ONLY using 5W20 from then on. Otherwise, I'm sticking to the proposed "economy" explanation with regards to Ford (and Honda's) choice of 5W20.

BODYMAN

05-10-2003, 07:51 AM

warranty is not a issue for me! But I have been using since I got the car back from KB. Fords 5-20 sythentic blend. the folks at KB did not have any specific recomendations. AS for a warranty issue for using mobil 1 5-20 I have never seen ford deny a warranty for this and I have been a manager at a Ford dealer for qiute some time. I think we are all getting carried away on the warranty Issues here. If the engine fails and it is due to something ford did and you dont have a ton of mods the are not going to try and void youre warranty. I think TAF summed it up the best! earlier in this post. If you were selling a part and you knew youre customer were being abusive would you continue to warranty that part you sold? you have to look at it both ways. That is my 2-cents. anyhow if you have any questions I would have any warranty work done at a SVT dealer it is very true thay are alot more mod friendly and have to be or they would never sell any cars.

Todd