View Full Version : cut rear cats and gutted front cats!
jay03merc
07-03-2006, 09:48 PM
i had rear cats cut off and i have two chamber flowmaster mufflers with resonate delete tips it sounded good other than the loud drone at around 2200 rpms. not to loud but noticable.i couldnt help myself being a mustang owner also with off road x pipes and one with off road h pipe i gutted front convertors to see what it sounded like. i love the sound when reving car up in park it seems to have a little more of a throaty sound to it now i have had alot of compliments. i just wish there was a way to keep the same loudness and get rid of the resonating sound at that certain rpm.i dont like that even though my wife loves that sound she rides around trying to make it sound like that.lol. i really would like to put headers on it but i just cant afford to spend 1800 dollars on exhaust system. is there any alternative to headers and that high cost like ordering long tubes or short tubes for a cobra mustang. i really just need headers cheap i can have custom exhaust pipe built for ther car. does dr or kooks offer there longtubes cheaper in a non ceramic coating????????????????:help: :bows:
jabo731
07-03-2006, 10:03 PM
I have not cats at all with the Kooks full system, and to keep the computer under control I have O2 eliminators plugged in. I also have res. delete tips. My tips are extended about an inch out. Not noticible to the eye but considerable less drone to the ear. Also I run Super 40s instead of the original 40. same sound outside with less resonance inside the car. I have a 1990 Mustang Gt that I run original 40s on but I didn't want the noise inside the Marauder.
SergntMac
07-04-2006, 08:09 AM
i just wish there was a way to keep the same loudness and get rid of the resonating sound at that certain rpm.i dont like that even though my wife loves that sound she rides around trying to make it sound like that.lol.:help: :bows: It's the same vibration causing both.
SergntMac
07-04-2006, 09:11 AM
I disagree with "no cats" or cutting them up inside. You don't gain anything from it, and you stand to face a world of hurt and may wind up spending more money.
Federal law requires cats, and functional cats. State laws on emmissions vary. Some states have none at all, while others (like Illinois) have severe penalties, including vehicle seizure. In the states with laws, they could even reach into the repair shop, and levy a fine against the wrench working on a car without cats, even if he's doing a brake job.
Keep this in mind when traveling on vacation. You may need a repair and won't get any service until you restore the required components.
Those of us who have bought the kits offered here (Kook's-Reinhart), get new high flow cats in the deal, as well as an X-pipe. This is a good deal, and the way to go. The laws don't require cats to be OEM, and the cats on the market as "high flow" are indeed an improvement over the OEM. Thus, it just doesn't make any sense to me, to take the risk.
The penalties clearly outweigh the gains, OTOH, nothing is illegal until you get caught.
Just my .02C, carry on gents.
bigmerc'03
07-04-2006, 03:51 PM
ford racing has a set of cobra headers from the 99-01 cobra thats a perfect fit for the marauder and a improvement on performance and airflow
SergntMac
07-04-2006, 04:34 PM
ford racing has a set of cobra headers from the 99-01 cobra thats a perfect fit for the marauder and a improvement on performance and airflow Good advice, thank you. But, short on detail, why make us hunt for that?
On page 87 of the 2006 Ford Racing catalogue, FRP offers a chart of which "shorty header" fits what application, from '86 Mustangs to '05 F-250s.
If you're inclined, the shortys you want to consider on this list, is part number M-9430-E464 ($350.), or, M-9430-E465 ($450.), the difference being ceramic coating (which would not be cheaper aftermarket).
Added word of caution here, none of the "shorty" headers from any of the aftermarket suppliers mate up to the stock Marauder exhaust pipe. No matter what you choose, custom exhaust pipes, (leading to cats or not) will require custom exhaust pipes, and anything you want after that.
StevenJ
07-04-2006, 09:42 PM
I disagree with "no cats" or cutting them up inside. You don't gain anything from it, and you stand to face a world of hurt and may wind up spending more money.
Federal law requires cats, and functional cats. State laws on emmissions vary. Some states have none at all, while others (like Illinois) have severe penalties, including vehicle seizure. In the states with laws, they could even reach into the repair shop, and levy a fine against the wrench working on a car without cats, even if he's doing a brake job.
Keep this in mind when traveling on vacation. You may need a repair and won't get any service until you restore the required components.
Those of us who have bought the kits offered here (Kook's-Reinhart), get new high flow cats in the deal, as well as an X-pipe. This is a good deal, and the way to go. The laws don't require cats to be OEM, and the cats on the market as "high flow" are indeed an improvement over the OEM. Thus, it just doesn't make any sense to me, to take the risk.
The penalties clearly outweigh the gains, OTOH, nothing is illegal until you get caught.
Just my .02C, carry on gents.
I asked this before. Is it illegal to remove one pair of cats? I plan on doing that eventually. I'd really like to know, thanks in advance.
SergntMac
07-05-2006, 05:01 AM
I asked this before. Is it illegal to remove one pair of cats? I plan on doing that eventually. I'd really like to know, thanks in advance. Off the top of my head, I'd say no. But, the second set is there for a reason, I'm sure. The end result may be a rise in emissions and if you're in a testing State, you may fail the test. Wish I had a better answer, but I do not.
BTW...Why remove just the two rears? What do you gain?
Technically...it is against Federal Law to remove factory Catalytic Converters before 8 years/80,000 miles unless they are damaged externally or internally to make them non-effective. This includes replacement by "High-Flow" CATs.
ctrlraven
07-05-2006, 06:14 AM
I'm not sure of what vehicle model year and up they start out but I know when I had my 2001 focus they just plugged into my OBD-II plug and 20 secs later they handed me my pass sheet and that was it. I know they just run a scan to make sure everything is plugged it and sends an OK feedback. I haven't gone through emissions yet for the Marauder but I'm sure it will be due the end of next year and I'll have a full exhaust system on so we will see what happens.
SergntMac
07-05-2006, 06:54 AM
I'm not sure of what vehicle model year and up they start out but I know when I had my 2001 focus they just plugged into my OBD-II plug and 20 secs later they handed me my pass sheet and that was it. I know they just run a scan to make sure everything is plugged it and sends an OK feedback. I haven't gone through emissions yet for the Marauder but I'm sure it will be due the end of next year and I'll have a full exhaust system on so we will see what happens. Illinois just recently moved up to a dyno system. It rises up from under the car lifting the drive wheels on rollers. They place sensors on the hood, plug into the OBDII port, and use a tail pipe sniffer while running the car up to 40 MPH. It doesn't take long, and I think they are only checking emissions from "normal" standing start acceleration.
You can test and fail 3X, but if you can show attempts to repair up to 500 dollars, and it doesn't fix the problem, they give you a pass. Oddly enough (but not for state government) AWD and SUVs get nothing more than a gas cap check. Go figure...
DEFYANT
07-05-2006, 07:06 AM
Illinois just recently moved up to a dyno system. It rises up from under the car lifting the drive wheels on rollers. They place sensors on the hood, plug into the OBDII port, and use a tail pipe sniffer while running the car up to 40 MPH. It doesn't take long, and I think they are only checking emissions from "normal" standing start acceleration.
You can test and fail 3X, but if you can show attempts to repair up to 500 dollars, and it doesn't fix the problem, they give you a pass. Oddly enough (but not for state government) AWD and SUVs get nothing more than a gas cap check. Go figure...
Maryland has a similar system. With OBD II, they simply plug into the computer and check for codes. No codes? Your done!
My 89 F250 has to run the "dyno".
fastblackmerc
07-05-2006, 07:46 AM
[QUOTE=DEFYANT]Maryland has a similar system. With OBD II, they simply plug into the computer and check for codes. No codes? Your done!
[QUOTE]
North Carolina has the same testing. No codes and you pass unless you have less than 100 miles after any codes have been cleared.
Big D's Merc
07-05-2006, 08:23 AM
SO is there a way to get rid of the cats and not throw engine codes? a buddy of mine cut his cats off his 01 Vic and it has codes and only gets about 200 miles to a tank of gas. I wanna run a new exhaust system on mine but want to do away with the cats. But I don't want codes and poor gas mileage. On my 00 SS Camaro I had o2 sims on it till I got them deleted out of the computer. Didn't know if there is something like that for the FOrds and Mercs.
fastblackmerc
07-05-2006, 08:28 AM
I believe the O2 sensors can be elminiated via tuning software. If not you can use MIL's that plug into the O2 Sensor connetors and fool the computer into thinking the O2 sensors are connected.
mrjones
07-05-2006, 08:51 AM
Lots of the Mustang supply places sell those MIL eliminators that just plug into the O2 sensor.
I just had the cats cut off my truck because they were bad at 175K. They were stopped up and rattling. I had considered cutting off the other two so that they would match, but I'm thinking now of just putting in one aftermarket cat in place of the two that were cut off. I don't care for the smell of the uncatalyzed exhaust.
Any of you guys have your old cats that you cut off you might want to get rid of cheaply?
Donny Carlson
07-05-2006, 06:02 PM
Off the top of my head, I'd say no. But, the second set is there for a reason, I'm sure. The end result may be a rise in emissions and if you're in a testing State, you may fail the test. Wish I had a better answer, but I do not.
BTW...Why remove just the two rears? What do you gain?
According to Scott Levine, Senior Master Tech at Team Ford, the first pair of cars are "light-off" cats designed to bring exhaust gases to a certain temperature range, the second cats do the remainder of the work. He told me that this setup was good for the life of the car, that removing one set of cats (or replacing the OEM cats with two high flow aftermarket cats) would work... for awhile, then you'll see premature failure of the cat, usualy when it starts throwing a code through the O2 sensor. I've seen MM's that throw codes he's talking about, and the usual solution was to have the 02 sensor alarm shut off in the chip.
RE: "the drone." It's a harmonic, shows up around 1500 -1700 rpm, higher in some other engines. The LS2 has the same issue at 1500 rpm. This was discussed online with the project manager for the SSR, his comment was "you drive through the range, it's not an issue." Nature of the beast. You make it more noticable when you make the exhaust system louder. Easy fix is to Dynomat your cabin like TAF did. He's car sounds like a Bentley inside, a wildcat on the outside.
StevenJ
07-05-2006, 08:14 PM
Off the top of my head, I'd say no. But, the second set is there for a reason, I'm sure. The end result may be a rise in emissions and if you're in a testing State, you may fail the test. Wish I had a better answer, but I do not.
BTW...Why remove just the two rears? What do you gain?
I heard that having a set of four is very restrictive and that deleting two will increase exhaust flow netting a 5 hp gain. Thankfully, Florida has no emission testing...
Oh yeah, if you remove one set of cats, doesn't the exhaust shop guy drill two new holes for the O2 bungs so that way the car doesn't throw codes? I'm pretty sure that's how it is on the custom set ups like the Kooks or the Cobra headers package that Rienhart sells.
SergntMac
07-06-2006, 02:30 AM
I heard that having a set of four is very restrictive and that deleting two will increase exhaust flow netting a 5 hp gain. Thankfully, Florida has no emission testing...
Oh yeah, if you remove one set of cats, doesn't the exhaust shop guy drill two new holes for the O2 bungs so that way the car doesn't throw codes? I'm pretty sure that's how it is on the custom set ups like the Kooks or the Cobra headers package that Rienhart sells. 5 HP? What about torque?
Generally speaking, when you open up the exhaust system on a small CID engine, you give up torque in the lower RPMs, and gain HP in the higher RPMs. I used to know which was more important on a heavy car, but it slips my mind at the moment. Heard any more?
You are correct, aftermarket kits from Reinhart and Kook's come complete, and use all four factory sensors. But, they also come with high flow cats for compliance.
IMHO, this "cat cutting" is just another form of individual rebellion against the government rule at large (which I indulge in myself from time to time in other topics). However, no matter what the automotive issue is, if there isn't going to be any reasonable power gains, I really have to ask myself why I'm spending the money. When I bought the first DR Cobra kit, I picked up 30 RWHP, and 30 RWTQ, as well as a very sweet and mellow exhaust tone, for under 1200 bucks including install. I would spend this again, in the blink of an eye.
Just my .02C gents, carry on...
Rider90
07-06-2006, 07:39 AM
I would get high flow cats, or remove two of them, just for the louder exhaust note.
Rider90
07-06-2006, 07:42 AM
Just thought this was an interesting read about Illinois and possibly one perticular emissions location...or maybe all of them?
http://www.chicagosvt.com/forums/showthread.php3?t=13017
Marauderjack
08-31-2006, 01:25 PM
Someone made statements about throwing engine codes without the cats??:confused:
The first O2 sensors are before the first cats and they control the A/F based on the exhaust gases directly from the engine....the next O2 sensors are after the first cats and before the second cats. Most tuners turn the back two O2 sensors off so why would any codes exist even if the cats were removed completely??:confused:
Someone took the cats off my 96 dually and it shows no CE light but I don't think it even has a OBD port.
Just curious??:rolleyes:
Marauderjack:burnout:
jasonblair
08-31-2006, 02:11 PM
I'm so glad I don't live in Illinois. Emmissions testing, front plates, no guns, no water fowl foods, $10 minimum wages forcing businesses out... sounds like a lovely place!
SergntMac
08-31-2006, 03:26 PM
I'm so glad I don't live in Illinois. Emmissions testing, front plates, no guns, no water fowl foods, $10 minimum wages forcing businesses out... sounds like a lovely place!If that's how you feel, I'm glad you found a home in VA...
BTW, emissions systems (including cats) are protected under Federal law, and cutting them up in any fashion when legal alternatives are available, is just plain stupid. The government will never seize my Marauder, and I don't have to look over my shoulder.
Last time I checked, Federal law applies in VA, unless you know something we don't?
CRUZTAKER
08-31-2006, 07:12 PM
Mine look damaged to me.
:baaa:
I hit a racoon...twice...yeah, that's the ticket...:P
Raudermaster
08-31-2006, 07:45 PM
Off the top of my head, I'd say no. But, the second set is there for a reason, I'm sure. The end result may be a rise in emissions and if you're in a testing State, you may fail the test. Wish I had a better answer, but I do not.
BTW...Why remove just the two rears? What do you gain?
FYI I believe the first set of cats are the Primary's and have to be there. The second set of cats are useless IMO. I had the second set of cats removed on my Crown Vic and had Dynomax cats installed as the primary's.
SergntMac
09-01-2006, 04:08 AM
FYI I believe the first set of cats are the Primary's and have to be there. The second set of cats are useless IMO.My my, how generous of Ford to give us some free stuff...
Actually the second set of CATs are the primaries (in regards to what a Catalytic Converter actually does which is turn Carbon Monoxide that comes from the motor into Carbon Dioxide that needs to exit the tailpipes). The front "oval" CATs are "light-off" CATs to help heat the primaries.
Cutting/"gutting" CATs is "ghetto" in my book...and it will affect how the car runs....period.
Loco1234
09-01-2006, 07:50 AM
High flow cats work great...
If you were to dyno High flow cats and the same exhaust with straight pipes
You'd find almost no difference in power... Particularly on a stock car...
The more power adders and free flowing intake/heads the more of a power gain without cats...
Its not really worth it when High flow cats are almost the same results...
High flow cats work great...
If you were to dyno High flow cats and the same exhaust with straight pipes
You'd find almost no difference in power... Particularly on a stock car...
The more power adders and free flowing intake/heads the more of a power gain without cats...
Its not really worth it when High flow cats are almost the same results...
^^^^+1,000
Rider90
09-01-2006, 09:22 AM
I'd be interested if someone were to make the pipes with high flow cats, welded already, bungs, bolts right in, everything...I don't think I am the only one looking for this. Any takers, TAF?
I'd be interested if someone were to make the pipes with high flow cats, welded already, bungs, bolts right in, everything...I don't think I am the only one looking for this. Any takers, TAF?
Thanks for asking...but, 1) I'm not a vendor here...and 2) we don't believe in "kits". We only build "On-vehicle" for that vehicle.
But again...thanks for asking. :up:
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