twin cobra pump hp level ??

[thePunisher]

how much hp does the twin cobra pump support (rwhp)?? with the stock fpdm.......

[FordNut]

Around 500 with stock lines and a BAP.
Add bigger lines & filter and it's closer to 600.
Around 600 you may need the modified FPDM.

[thePunisher]

thanks...but how about without a bap????

[Zack]

Around 500 with stock lines and a BAP.
Add bigger lines & filter and it's closer to 600.
Around 600 you may need the modified FPDM.

I dont know Brian, I think they can handle about 650rwhp with a BAP on a Roots Car. A centrifugal will be more like 600rwhp.

[Zack]

how much hp does the twin cobra pump support (rwhp)?? with the stock fpdm.......

With my Vortech, stock lines, no BAP, I ran out of fuel at the 480rwhp range.

[FordNut]

I dont know Brian, I think they can handle about 650rwhp with a BAP on a Roots Car. A centrifugal will be more like 600rwhp.
True, my brain was stuck in centrifugal mode.

[FordNut]

With my Vortech, stock lines, no BAP, I ran out of fuel at the 480rwhp range.
Likewise, around 470 I needed a BAP.

[Joe Walsh]

This question is something that I am just now investigating for my upcoming S/C install.
Are we talking about new/larger fuel rails?
Or are we talking about new/larger fuel lines from the tank all the way to the fuel rails?
If so, how did you guys re-plumb the fuel line and what did you use?
(hard line or braided fuel hose?)
BTW, What is the HP limit of the new Ford GT pump?
Thanks, Joe

[FordNut]

This question is something that I am just now investigating for my upcoming S/C install.
Are we talking about new/larger fuel rails?
Or are we talking about new/larger fuel lines from the tank all the way to the fuel rails?
If so, how did you guys re-plumb the fuel line and what did you use?
(hard line or braided fuel hose?)
BTW, What is the HP limit of the new Ford GT pump?
Thanks, Joe
Talking about lines, not fuel rails. However the fuel rails are a problem for Cobra guys around 650 hp.

Dennis has a kit with braided steel lines from the tank to the fuel rails. That's what most people who have changed went with. I'm always doing something different, so I'll be using stainless steel hard-line for my upgrade. I'll post more details when I get started on the install.

With twin Ford GT pumps, an upgraded FPDM, upgraded lines/filter/rails, and a BAP there are a few Mustangs running over 750 rwhp on the returnless system. Much higher and it's absolutely necessary to go with a return style system.

[thePunisher]

thanks guys....i will be putting a centrifugal on very soon...so that is my focus.....

[Joe Walsh]

From reading juno's thread about his Ford GT pump install, it looks like a single GT pump is better than a twin Cobra pump set-up.

324 lph @ 80 psi!

It is a lot less expensive too.

That GT pump with a Kenne Bell BAP should feed VERY hungry DOHCs.
I've got to research the larger fuel filter and Dennis fuel line upgrade kit.

[juno]

I am going to install a BAP, but I plan on finding the limit for a single GT pump in our cars during the dyno. It will be a month away though.


From reading juno's thread about his Ford GT pump install, it looks like a single GT pump is better than a twin Cobra pump set-up.

324 lph @ 80 psi!

It is a lot less expensive too.

That GT pump with a Kenne Bell BAP should feed VERY hungry DOHCs.
I've got to research the larger fuel filter and Dennis fuel line upgrade kit.

[MarauderTJA]

I have Cobra fuel pumps and plan on adding a BAP for my application. Do you guys mutually recommend larger fuel lines in place of fuel rails? I heard that with a BAP and the Cobra pumps that larger fuel rails are more necessary than lines looking at around 600 RWHP with that combination. What do you guys think?

[TooManyFords]

All I can tell you is that I've replaced absolutely everything on mine, all -8: braided hose, twin focus pumps, hanger to hold the pumps, huge filter, new rails, 60lb injectors and a BAP. I guess I didn't change the FPDM yet but I don't see why that has to change.

Pressure and Volume are two different things. If you can generate the same pressure using -8 line as you were using -4, you have to be moving 4x the fuel, assuming -8 is twice the diameter of -4.

John


[someone please check my math on this...]

[FordNut]

... twin focus pumps ...

I guess I didn't change the FPDM yet but I don't see why that has to change.


You ought to look into upgrading the FPDM. Without upgrade it will drive the twin Cobra pumps ok unless it has a very high duty cycle. The twin Focus SVT pumps draw more power than the twin Cobra pumps and can put the FPDM into thermal overload, shutting it down. Then you go lean and buy a new engine.

[SergntMac]

I have Cobra fuel pumps and plan on adding a BAP for my application. Do you guys mutually recommend larger fuel lines in place of fuel rails? I heard that with a BAP and the Cobra pumps that larger fuel rails are more necessary than lines looking at around 600 RWHP with that combination. What do you guys think?I'll cast a dissenting vote here...I think you may be stepping into the overkill zone?

On the KB #1x, I started out with a Walbro 255 pump added to the stock system, with 42lb. injectors in place, all stock stuff on the KB build sheet. This worked fine up to 455 RWHP. Then I added Reinhart's fuel filter and 90 degree bend removing kit fuel line kit, and made 475 RWHP, but it was still getting lean above 5500 RPM. Only 36 PSI across the injectors at a full 100 percent duty cycle. So, I added twin Focus pumps (also cheaper than the the Cobra) and a BAP, and the modified Fuel Pressure Delivery Module from Mark Chiappetta. (BTW, my BAP is set for full on, always.) Further, IMHO no matter what else you do, updating the FPDM is a key to keeping everything fuel system related under your control.

Still using the original 42lb. injectors, I ran it up to 538 RWHP, with 39 PSI across the injectors, with a 93 percent duty cycle. Everything else in the system between the fuel filter and the injectors, is OEM Marauder stock. I'm still in the safety zone, but I think one more mod may push me over the edge. If that happens, I'll move up 50lb. injectors first, and consider rails and larger line after testing those results.

Until then, IMHO (and with much respect to others posting here) there's not much actual "bang for the buck" in overhauling the whole system all at once. It's cheaper to build as you need. I say so because a very good friend of mine with a turbo Marauder just dropped 2400 bucks on a sumped tank/return system from Areomotive. It's badazzed alright, lot's of bling too (I've always like a touch of red). But, was it necessary? He's not making much more power than me. Gobs of torque yes, but not much more HP at the RW.

In any event, it's "do what you want." But, I like to associate my mods with fixing a need before quenching a want.

Of course, everything is "bang for the buck" related too, and if you run across a deal on parts, look at it again?

Just my .02C, carry on gents...

[MarauderTJA]

Thanks Mac...Pm to follow.

[TooManyFords]

modified Fuel Pressure Delivery Module from Mark Chiappetta. (BTW, my BAP is set for full on, always.) Further, IMHO no matter what else you do, updating the FPDM is a key to keeping everything fuel system related under your control.

More people with hand in my pockets! (Thanks for the lingo JD)

Ok, so how much with this little jewel cost me and can I get it yesterday?

Cheers!

john

[Joe Walsh]

If the single Ford GT fuel pump has more capacity AND draws less current than both the dual Cobra and dual Focus pumps, then I'm assuming no upgrade to the FPDM is required??? :dunno:

[SergntMac]

More people with hand in my pockets! (Thanks for the lingo JD)

Ok, so how much with this little jewel cost me and can I get it yesterday?

Cheers!For once, John, no. This mod isn't following that path, it's not that "salesman" crap...Again.

The FPDM mod was only 100 bucks when I bought two upgrades back to back in '05. I have a blank spare here I can send out on your behalf now, if it's critical.

The deal is...You send Mark your FPDM, he mods it, you get your original back in about 5-7 days, via UPS. E-me for the UPS details, or, call Dennis? I got it all from him.

The FPDM is located in the trunk, driver's side, just under the fuel system reset button, 'cause it's related hardware.

I'm not clear on this because I'm not the fuel system engineer Mark is here.
(Pssst...I think he's "inside" somewhere...Hehehe). However, remembering as much as I can about this mod and my voice discussions with Mark, it's a "fuel system safety" feature of our Marauders (possibly all Fords, and likewise all modern automobiles everywhere), that monitors all fuel system behavior.

When the "gallons/liters" per hour flow too high, or, the power wire temps from increased pump activity reach a threshold of heat/voltage that spell "pressurized fuel system is leaking", the FPDM steps in and shuts everything off...Instantly. Another version of "tachometer", but for our fuel system? And, with a new "redline"?

It's the "instantly" that kills our engines like a single shot to the brain. You got a taste of this yourself. Rise above 5500 RPMs in full tilt WOT and shut off the fuel, but not pull spark, or, timing, and...Well...Ouch.

Just because something appears to be leaking, and it appears that someone has had a serious collision, and the pressurized system is pumping raw fuel out all over a car full of someones...Go figure?

It's not a bad safety feature, or, a safety feature gone sour.

More like our mods changing the game plan on things, and playing outside it's rules. It's the FPDM threshold(s) that say something is broke when it's not really broke, and what appears to be a leak somewhere, and what is not a leak, but improved flow responding to increased demand. Mark changes the thresholds for alarm.

I hope I'm explaining this right, but I may be missing a verb or two...

Anyway...If you need any more than this 411, we need to talk.

[TooManyFords]

I hope I'm explaining this right, but I may be missing a verb or two...

Anyway...If you need any more than this 411, we need to talk.

LOL! No, I think I understand. I was thinking the FPDM was the little thingie up on the fuel rail (FRPS = Fuel Rail Pressure Sensor) and thought I had all my acronyms all twisted around.

No, this is VERY good 411 and yes I do need to make sure I don't miss the obvious. So, if you have one to send to him then I sure can back it up with Paypal or a CC#. When I get the modified one, I'll make mine available for the next person. I believe Tom has already has his hand up in the back corner...

Yep, hitting the nail on the head... Been there once already and really don't need a $100 oversight make me build an even bigger motor.

Cheers!

John

[thePunisher]

i just sent my fpdm out today for modification. i will be running dual gt pumps. and no bap....ive never been a fan of the bap.

5/16 line can only flow so much regardless of pressure......a good rule of thumb...more pressure equates to less volume....so the the more near stock pressure you are the better. this is also better for the injectors. of course on boosted applications youll need one extra # of fuel pressure for every # boost. this is why on return style systems the regulators are boost referenced.

[FordNut]

BTW, the acronym FPDM stands for Fuel Pump Driver Module...

Not trying to split hairs or anything like that, just thought it would be better to get it right sooner rather than later.

[DEFYANT]

Great thread!

I just got off the phone with (Cheesehead)Bob. We were on this subject then I come online and see this thread!

Question: I am no fan of the BAP either. Sounds like a Ford GT pump may be the way to go. And as Joe stated above, no mods to the FPDM?

Thanks

[FordNut]

Single Ford GT pump no FPDM mod needed. BAP possibly needed depending on power level. Twin Ford GT pumps and FPDM mod is needed. BAP probably not needed, also depending on power level...

JUNO will be testing the single Ford GT pump soon, until then we don't know for sure about how much power it will support.

Maybe I'm all about overkill, but I'm not willing to risk an engine by taking shortcuts on the fuel system. I'll be running Twin Ford GT pumps, modified FPDM and wiring (parallel wires from FPDM to fuel pumps, reduces voltage drop due to wire resistance), BAP (with Hobbs Switch, wired pre-FPDM with 10 ga wire/relay), upgraded fuel lines and filter, upgraded fuel rails, 60 lb injectors. This is pretty much the system that Mark Chiappetta uses on his car, he's pushing about 750 rwhp (maybe he has bigger injectors).

[SergntMac]

BTW, the acronym FPDM stands for Fuel Pump Driver Module...Not trying to split hairs or anything like that, just thought it would be better to get it right sooner rather than later. Correction noted. I tend to call things what others call them when I'm learning from them. My introduction to Mark passed quickly, couldn't take as many notes as I wanted. Consider the split hair healed.

Maybe I'm all about overkill, but I'm not willing to risk an engine by taking shortcuts on the fuel system. Though I didn't mean to, it looks like I ruffled your feathers. My apologies, Brian, this wasn't my intent.

I'm not a mechanic, or, an engineer, and my learning curve is slower. Being careful and taking steps one at a time improves my ability to learning new stuff and conserve my mod money for what's needed. I have done business with "experts", and some have been disappointing, you and I can't help that. Being conservative isn't being cheap, or, is it taking shortcuts. It's learn what you need to do, and get it done. Nobody wants to lose an engine.

Wouldn't it be nice is there was just one answer for every question.

[FordNut]

Though I didn't mean to, it looks like I ruffled your feathers. My apologies, Brian, this wasn't my intent.

Not at all, no apologies needed. Once again, the printed word doesn't convey the same message as the spoken word. I was just explaining the thought process behind my approach to the fuel system.

[SergntMac]

No harm, no foul, thank you my friend.

[juno]

I keep going back to Kenne Bell when it comes to stuff like this. He has not published anything on the GT-40 pump, but he has done extensive testing on other setups.
http://kennebell.net/techinfo/general-info/BAPsvtFocus_kens.pdf

At 700 rwhp he showed a 7 psi drop across the stock filter/lines and 3 across the rail. Changing the lines to 3/8" brought the line drop down to 2 psi. Our rails are really not a problem up to 700 rwhp. Even the stock lines will support it.
You have to figure in the actual fuel pressure drop across the injectors to really determine flow. A larger injector, such as a 60# will give you more flow at the same delta (fuel rail pressure - boost pressure)

If you have a 10 psi drop on the stock system and running 15 psi boost, that is 25 psi your pump has to overcome. Most injectors are rated at 39 psi delta I think, so you have to have a pump putting out 64 psi at the pump to get 39 psi drop across the injector on stock systems.

So a 42 lb injector will get you about 528 hp at the crank and a 60 will get you over 700. The tuner can raise the fuel pressure to increase flow, but the focus pumps won't go over 85 psi as they have an internal bypass.

It's all in the article anyway and explained better then I can.
According to the test I saw with a single gt-40 pump it should supply all the needs of 8 60 lb injectors even on the stock system. I am still kind of leary about that and I anticipate that a BAP will be needed, but we will see.

[tmac1337]

For those of us with the Dual Ford Cobra Pump Assembly......is it possible to simply swap out the Cobra pumps for GT-40 pumps on the assembly?

Or is this new territory?

[FordNut]

For those of us with the Dual Ford Cobra Pump Assembly......is it possible to simply swap out the Cobra pumps for GT-40 pumps on the assembly?

Or is this new territory?
Yes. Not exactly a direct swap but close enough with a little innovation.

[SergntMac]

Wondering...What fuel system mods (if any) come with the the base Trilogy kit? Seems to me they are in the same community as the '03-'04 Cobra owners, and I don't really know what come in the boxes.

[Tallboy]

Wondering...What fuel system mods (if any) come with the the base Trilogy kit? Seems to me they are in the same community as the '03-'04 Cobra owners, and I don't really know what come in the boxes.

Injectors and a KB BAP. That's it.

[DEFYANT]

I don't really know what come in the boxes.

Easy way to find out ya'know. Give Jerry a call. :D

[TooManyFords]

I keep going back to Kenne Bell when it comes to stuff like this. He has not published anything on the GT-40 pump, but he has done extensive testing on other setups.
http://kennebell.net/techinfo/general-info/BAPsvtFocus_kens.pdf

Wow, that was good reading! Sounds like I need to call Dennis and arrange to exchange these Focus pumps for some Cobra or GT pumps!

John

[thePunisher]

from what i heard the trilogy kit comes with a focus pump. i will be installing the dual cobra pump soon as i get it back from dennis...but beofre i do i will be swapping a set of gt pumps in their place.....

[MarauderTJA]

Overall I am extremely glad to see the input here. We all want our engines to be safe within the proper power levels. IMO, the more research the better. I have a call into Al Papitto at Boss 330 Racing (one of the nations top modular 4.6 engine builders) just on this discussion as he is building my engine. Don't want to spend all this money on a new motor and starve it out of fuel to lose it. :confused:

[tmac1337]

[B]I have a call into Al Papitto at Boss 330 Racing (one of the nations top modular 4.6 engine builders) just on this discussion as he is building my engine. Don't want to spend all this money on a new motor and starve it out of fuel to lose it. :confused:

That engine builder sounds real familiar to me:D Your gonna like it...really like it!

Sounds like a KB BAP with Dual Cobras will do the trick......

[tmac1337]

Wondering...What fuel system mods (if any) come with the the base Trilogy kit? Seems to me they are in the same community as the '03-'04 Cobra owners, and I don't really know what come in the boxes.

Mac.....Mac.....your not gonna start talking about a stock air intake next r' u?

[SergntMac]

Mac.....Mac.....your not gonna start talking about a stock air intake next r' u? Nope...Like I said, "just wondering", 'cause I didn't know. I've heard some variety in answers, but I believe TallBoy answered my Q. BTW, thanks, Chuck!

[thePunisher]

so i guess ill be the first guy running dual gt pumps and modded fpdm?????

[FordNut]

so i guess ill be the first guy running dual gt pumps and modded fpdm?????
Probably the first Marauder anyways...

I've been carrying them around in my trunk for a couple of months now, but the twin Cobra pumps w/BAP is more than adequate for my current setup. I went ahead with the FPDM upgrade so everything is ready to go when I pop the GT pumps in there, but they're not needed 'til the built motor is done.

Hopefully before SSHS6!

[MarauderTJA]

Probably Hopefully before SSHS6!

It looks like by the sound of things around here we are all going to have some serious competition with our Marauders at SSHS6:cool: . Boy are the Impala boys going to be in for a surprise:D .

[tmac1337]

I've been asking around and have come to the conclusion that swapping out the Dual Cobra Pumps on my harness for GT Pumps is the way to go, and costs less than getting a KB BAP.

Something to do next month.

I also was told that the Fuel Pump Driver mod is not necessary even with 2 GT pumps.......:confused:

[thePunisher]

ill be doin that tomorrow.....ill let you know how it go.....

[Tallboy]

from what i heard the trilogy kit comes with a focus pump. i will be installing the dual cobra pump soon as i get it back from dennis...but beofre i do i will be swapping a set of gt pumps in their place.....

You heard wrong.

[tmac1337]

Anybody have any leads online where to get the GT-40 pumps for a decent price?

[merc]

Anybody have any leads online where to get the GT-40 pumps for a decent price?

The dealer on this site. It sounds like it's time for another group purchase

[tmac1337]

The dealer on this site. It sounds like it's time for another group purchase

Rockauto has them for $88.99.
Lethalperformance.com has 2 for $210.00

[thePunisher]

i got mine for 72$ each...but im a ford tech and thats my dealer price....

[juno]

Anybody have any leads online where to get the GT-40 pumps for a decent price?

Ray the dealer on here. Got it for 85-90, its in my post.

[MarauderTJA]

Group purchase sounds like a good idea! I'm in for two.

[tmac1337]

Any info. back from you guys who have swapped out to the dual GT-40's?

A vendor on this site may be doing a group buy on these pumps soon...possibly in the $70 dollar range if enough people want em.

[thePunisher]

i installed em in place of the cobras...but have not run the car yet.... only put the key on to hear them prime....

[fastblackmerc]

I'm in for 2.....

[tmac1337]

i installed em in place of the cobras...but have not run the car yet.... only put the key on to hear them prime....

Any new information on replacing 2 Cobra pumps with 2 new GT-40 pumps?

Anyone.....anyone?

[thePunisher]

still waiting on the rest of my blower parts before the trip to the dyno....should be this week....

[tmac1337]

still waiting on the rest of my blower parts before the trip to the dyno....should be this week....

Good luck with your car. Keep us posted.

[thePunisher]

definitely

[tmac1337]

Answered my own question. A little snip snip here, spade connector there, and.............significantly more fuel on the top end!:)

A couple of these and BAP's are out the window.

[thePunisher]

just got the car running today.....but wont push it till its dynoed....

[Dennis Reinhart]

how much hp does the twin cobra pump support (rwhp)?? with the stock fpdm.......


If you swich to the new GT Pumps and a dash 8 line, with good fuel rails the twin pumps with a BAP can support 600 RWHP easily