RoyalPurple Synthetic 5w20

[tetsu]

Hi all,

After much gnashing of teeth and wringing of hands, I've decided in my next oil-change to go with RoyalPurple 5w20 Full Synthetic.

I know....I know.... most everyone is using Mobil1 5w30. I can even get that stuff at Sam's for $22 a 6qt case. However, I am turning risk averse in regards to my warranty. So, after consulting my service manager, I'm sticking with 5w20 and given that my only options are Amsoil and Royal Purple.

I'm interested whether anyone has opinions on RoyalPurple in a positive or negative sense. I dont really want to debate 5w30 vs 5w20. I'm aware of those issues.

Any comments?

Johnny

[TAF]

Johnny,

I'm the lone Royal Purple user. I use the 5W30, though. This was recommended by the Ford Master Tech that takes care of mine and I change every 4-5K miles due to mostly highway miles.

No problems to report.

[Marauder57]

This is the first place I have ever heard of Royal Purple....I thought maybe when it was mentioned it was a joke...but then I was looking through a magazine at a Dr's office and saw an add for it...

Personally I have been using Mobil 1 for the last 15 years on all my cars.....works great.....88 Cougar XR7, Tbird, F150...

[SergntMac]

What does Royal Purple offer over other engine oils? Weight arguments aside (I hear ya Johnny) what make this oil so significant?

For that matter, why does Mobil 1 seem to have so many loyal followers?

I would love to know the difference, if it was explained to me, I may become a fan too.

Until then, IMHO, the best oil is clean oil, and the recommended synth/blend seems more than adequate when short term and frequent change is also recommended.

If the performance of the engine oils mentioned is equal, then...

Anyone?

[jgc61sr2002]

Sarge - I agree that the best oil is clean oil. John

[vaderv]

Tetsu I too have listened to all the 5 30 guys and have developed this opinion based on many calls to ford and mercury. You should deffinately go with the 5 20 or 0 20. The tolerances in these new engines are light years ahead of the older ones. Also the engines are designed i.e. oil pumps and such for this oil. I am also reminded of back in the 80s when Ford first went 5 30 and all the experts like service managers and mechanics would reccomend at least 10 40. I feel this backlash is due to a resistance to change. Oils viscosity has little to due with its lubrication qualitys. The heavier oils were meant not only to lube but also to bridge gaps that are not existant in the newer cnc milled motors. Especially with aluminum blocks and overhead cams. I am sure some will mention race oils and to that point we dont run in the red zone for 500 miles at a time. Warranty issues be damned... The only thing I can get people to agree on is that full synthetics at this weigh will retain lube properties much better than dino rot. They also reccomend that we switch to synthetic trans fluid when we chage that...

[Billatpro]

Well, at the risk of fumbling through this I think I'll give it a shot. I know of the "Purple" only because they were the main sponsor on Cristen Powell's Top Fuel dragster. The stuff has made it's way into many drag race motors with outstanding results for resisting "sludging", "sulferic breakdown","scuffing", "heat degradation" and whole list of others. I can't say for sure if she used the stuff in the fuel motor or not but I understand it has the formulation to handle this kind of punishment. There is no more extream duty then this and anything that can stand up to it has got to be good. The only reason this or any oil does not make into wide spread use among the pro ranks of dragracers is common "Oil Deal" a weekend of funny car racing will go through a 150 to 200 quarts of oil and thats works out to a lot of money. There are only two or three vendors handing out free oil to the teams and an outsider will find it tough to break into that game.
The "Purple" in this royal concoction is not part of the "magic" potion" but rather part of the magic of marketing.

[Bigdogjim]

1,300,000 miles a year! 20 vans/trucks 17 Fords driven HARDED than we will ever ever push our MM. Real world, real oil 5W-20 changed every 3000 miles........... Have had engines go 300,000 miles and then traded in.. Nuff said

[RF Overlord]

Originally posted by Billatpro
The "Purple" in this royal concoction is not part of the "magic" potion" but rather part of the magic of marketing.

Saw a commercial for Royal Purple on the Speed Channel on Sunday...stuff looks like Grape Kool-Aid...

[mungce]

Right ON with the Royal Purple...more merchandising than go..........something different, that's all, same oil as MotorCraft, as SAE has to make them all fit within paticular catagories......

Just got 9K on my MM that I got last Aug, and it's just really getting broke in, or rather I am getting used to it. The nose of the car will fake you out if you don't watch it,threr's another 3 feet of car out there, and without a center stripe of some kind on the hood, it's e-z enought smack a curve. I have new wheels now, and they are goon stay new, without those dongs that happened the 1st time around.

Jim Williams
Ft.Worth,Tx

[tetsu]

RoyalPurple is FULL synthetic. The better Motorcraft is only a blend. I'm most interested simply due to it's full synthetic nature and reputation for resisting to forming lacquers and sludges.

PLUS, it's the only full synthetic besides AMSOIL which comes in 5w20.

Johnny

[tetsu]

Originally posted by Bigdogjim
1,300,000 miles a year! 20 vans/trucks 17 Fords driven HARDED than we will ever ever push our MM. Real world, real oil 5W-20 changed every 3000 miles........... Have had engines go 300,000 miles and then traded in.. Nuff said

Bigdog, are you saying that you put RoyalPurple in your fleet?

Johnny

[jgc61sr2002]

Who makes RoyalPurple? Never heard of it before this thread. Have driven two cars over 250,000 miles and a 4 cly. POS Pontiac sundird over 230,000 miles with no major repairs. Oil and filter every 3,000 miles. I have just started to use synthetic oil, although I'll use the Motorcraft 5 W 20 on the Marauder. John

[Bigdogjim]

tetsu: Sorry for the misunderstanding 5W-20 regular oil Motorcaft. It works for me...

[maraudaver]

Tetsu,
I work in an oil refinery and we have switched to Royal Purple lubricants for all our Rotating Equipment. This was a major economic decision as it is much more expensive than conventional oil (we used to use Amoco lubricants).

[maraudaver]

Well to finish my point, I was told by the head of Maintenance that there is a quantifiable difference between Royal purple and our previous oil. He said they have a proprietary technology that increases its effectiveness, but so does Mobil 1. He also mumbled something about the molecular chains being straight in synthetic oil as opposed to conventional. Anyway, I plan on using it in my beloved Marauder since it seems to be superior. That and I got a couple of cases for free from the vendor. Sorry for the dual posting but I am in the middle of my night shifts and I got a brain cramp.

[russ in VA]

I have been a loyal user of Mobile 1 since I changed the oil in my old carburated Datsun and the idle speed went from 800 rpm to 1100. Since there are no computer controls to change this I credit that to reduced drag ... synthetic is just slicker.

Sarge, the real benifit of synthetic is the increased cold start protection since sythetic does not thicken up when cold. Plus better high temp breakdown resistance (if I ever get around to it, I want to replace the volt meter with an oil temp guage, that would be the most informative guage we could add in my opinion since I don't like to stomp on it until the OIL is up to temp, the coolant temp guage does not give the info I want).

As far as Royal Purple, I don't know anything about it BUT I do know that some other true racing oils do not offer the right additives for street use. Race engines get oil changes after just a couple of heat cycles. Street oils need to have the right additives to stand up to hundreds of heat cycles. Real race oil does not have those type of additives ... so stick to an oil designed for the rigors of daily use ... for me that is mobile 1.

[RF Overlord]

Originally posted by russ in VA
As far as Royal Purple, I don't know anything about it BUT I do know that some other true racing oils do not offer the right additives for street use. Race engines get oil changes after just a couple of heat cycles. Street oils need to have the right additives to stand up to hundreds of heat cycles. Real race oil does not have those type of additives ... so stick to an oil designed for the rigors of daily use ... for me that is mobile 1.

I, too, have no actual experience with Royal Purple®, but their web site says that in addition to racing oils, they sell a "street" oil that has the API "For Gasoline Engines" star-burst which indicates the oil has all the correct additives for street-driven cars...

[tetsu]

I'm planning on using the automotive engine oil rather than the racing oil.

Johnny

[SergntMac]

Well, thanks to everyone for adding their .02c here. I've learned a lot about engin oils over the past few weeks and several threads. Never meant to challenge anyone's decision to use any particular oil or weight, hope y'all didn't feel that way. Then again, every once in a while, the one or two sheep that follow a popular brand name only because it's a popular brand name, wake up. No way to do that without asking why.

All in all, I have to consider the many sides to engine oil. it's a coolant, a cleaner, a lubricator, it's important to be the correct viscosity for the application, and be durable under a variety of constantly changing climates and applications. That's not easy to dice up, a particular oil may be high in attending to one area of concern, and dangerously low in another. Seems the one element of this discussion we do all agree on, is frequent changes.

I'm a bit more conservative with my changes than others, because I (IMHO) drive my car hard. The cost of the oil is a factor, if I stay with the recommended weight and blend by my dealer, it's cheaper. Cheaper allows me more frequency of change, and change on the record with the dealer for warranty issues. 28 bucks every 2K, with an automatic undercarriage inspection by a trained observer, is worth it to me.

I think I'll stick with my program for now, but I thank you all for the enlightment. This learning is what being a member here is all about.

[Warpath]

Hot Rod magazine ran a test with I think a Chevy engine, autotrans, and solid axle to see if synthetics make a difference. They first ran with dino fluids in the engine, trans, and axle. Then they ran it with full synthetics in all three and picked up about 8-9 hp. Unfortunately, they didn't do one at a time to see where the largest gain was. Also, a sample size of one isn't a very scientific test. Taking that into account, it seems to pay off to use synthetics. This test is the only real comparison I have ever seen. Most everything else is opinion.

Royal Purple is pretty popular among the Mustang crowd. It gets its color from a small amount of food coloring (not enough to worry about). Amsoil seems to be gaining popularity. They claim their additives are better or they add more additives so that you only have to change oil something like every 30k or 50k miles or something ridiculous like that. Like Sarge said, clean oil is best. My opinion is clean synthetic is best.

Also, IMO, I don't think you'll see any significant difference between Mobil 1, Amsoil, or Royal Purple. So, I say go with whichever's cheapest.

Also, I don't see why you want to change weight anyway. Ford tests these engines with the recommended oil. I don't think they would change weight if it didn't improve life or performance.

[tetsu]

Sarge,

If you really drive hard, you might consider at least upgrading to the Motorcraft Synthetic Blend.

Johnny

[jgc61sr2002]

Originally posted by tetsu
Sarge,

If you really drive hard, you might consider at least upgrading to the Motorcraft Synthetic Blend.

Johnny Johnny I think the Sarge is using the Motorcraft Blend as the dealer does his oil changes. The synthetic blend is the oil that most L/M dealers use. John

[tetsu]

My dealer puts in pure dino oil unless you ask for Blend.

Johnny

[RF Overlord]

Johnny, if your dealer puts in dino oil, then you can't be getting 5W-20...I don't believe there ARE any 5W-20 oils that are not either synthetic blend or full synthetic...

I might be wr--wr--wr--mistaken, but I think the 5W-20 that Ford calls for is the synthetic blend...

[Marauder57]

A lot of interesting opinions here.....I had NEVER heard of Royal Purple until here....I will do a little independant research just to see what there is to find out about it...internet and such...

For me Mobil 1 is the good stuff....but it will cost you about $50 give or take $10 depending upon where you get it changed...but it has been good on all the cars I have had.....and if for some reason you don't change the oil at 3,000 it is recommended you go 5,000 with it....you won't have a problem....

I don't have numbers or data to prove its effectiveness....it has worked well with me....my dad used it before me....and most of the guys I know who have V8's that I know and care about there car use it....

But I would safely say that using the recommended Dino of any of the majors will do you right.....but I would not push it much past the normal change mileage.....Just MO.

[tetsu]

My Sam's Club carries Mobil1 5w30 for $23/ 6qt case.

Johnny

[tetsu]

At the Advanced Auto Parts I was at last week, I could swear I distinctly saw Motorcraft 5w20 and 5w20 Synthetic Blend.

There were a couple of non synthetic 5w20s in addition to those.

Johnny

[Heavy D.]

Havoline and Valvoline both make non-synthetic 5w-20 - I used it in my truck to hasten the break-in process before switching to Motorcraft synthetic blend 5w-20.

[Blue Marauder]

Originally posted by tetsu
At the Advanced Auto Parts I was at last week, I could swear I distinctly saw Motorcraft 5w20 and 5w20 Synthetic Blend.

There were a couple of non synthetic 5w20s in addition to those.

Johnny

According to the Ford Motorcraft website (www.motorcraft.com), Motorcraft 5w-20 is available ONLY as a synthetic blend.

[Heavy D.]

Just got off the horn with Chicago Mustang. They said that they can get Royal Purple in 5w20, but it's racing oil and is not certified for street use. It's also between $7 and $8 per quart...

I'm sure the oil would work as good or better than most synthetics, but the lack of the API certification makes me nervous. Royal Purple's website has a faq on this:

http://www.royalpurple.com/rettech/retfaqs.shtml

If you look at the section under "Racing Oil", they say it's fine for street applications, but since it does not conform to API ir ILSAC specifications it should not be used when warranty work may be an issue.

[Marauder57]

Thanks for the link....I must say the "Purple" gimmick part of it is pretty clever.....pretty interesting......

I had been putting in Slick 50 for the first oil change....then just pure Mobil 1...now I may rethink that.....the Slick 50 part....

[Heavy D.]

You are welcome, Marauder57. Many years ago I put Slick 50 in my sister's heavily used '87 Tempo - It seemed to run better and get slightly better mileage. I tried it in my new '93 Sable when the engine was broken in and didn't notice any difference. My non-scientific opinion on Slick 50 is that in older cars that haven't had regular oil changes, it helps but if you stay on top of it and use partial to full synthetics it makes no difference.

Again, a non-scientific opinon based on anecdotal information with a sample size of 2...

[tetsu]

You can get RoyalPurple STREET oil for $5/qt from Jeg's.

I wouldn't use the Racing Oil unless I was going to change it between runs on a racing motor.

Johnny

[RF Overlord]

Originally posted by Blue Marauder
According to the Ford Motorcraft website (www.motorcraft.com), Motorcraft 5w-20 is available ONLY as a synthetic blend.

My point exactly; if Johnny's (tetsu's) dealer is putting in dino oil, then they're either putting in something other than 5W-20, or they're not using Motorcraft oil...so in EITHER of those cases, if the DEALER isn't using 5W-20, or isn't using Motorcraft oil, then why should there be a warranty issue if I do the same?

I'm not trying to convince anyone to STOP using whatever they're using, I just think we seem to be arguing over a moot point...there's no consistency from dealer-to-dealer...using high quality, clean oil, with regular changes and a good filter, is all that's important...Mobil1, Royal Purple, Pennzoil, Motorcraft, who cares...it's ALL good... :D

[Blue Marauder]

Originally posted by Heavy D.
Just got off the horn with Chicago Mustang. They said that they can get Royal Purple in 5w20, but it's racing oil and is not certified for street use. It's also between $7 and $8 per quart...

I'm sure the oil would work as good or better than most synthetics, but the lack of the API certification makes me nervous. Royal Purple's website has a faq on this:

http://www.royalpurple.com/rettech/retfaqs.shtml

If you look at the section under "Racing Oil", they say it's fine for street applications, but since it does not conform to API ir ILSAC specifications it should not be used when warranty work may be an issue.

Chicago Mustang doesn't know what they are talking about.

Here is the CORRECT link to API certified Royal Purple oil which DOES include a 5w20 oil for street use.

http://www.royalpurple.com/rpmor/rpmor.shtml

[Heavy D.]

Thanks for the link Blue Marauder! All I need to do is find someone who can get the street version of this... I'm guessing it's not going to be Chicago Mustang. This is good news to me, as I've been waiting since 2000 for Mobil 1 to get a pure synthetic 5w-20 out the door for the 2001 F-150's. If I can connect with a dealer here in Chicagoland I'll post who it is, unless a fellow member in this area who uses it can give me a name.

[Blue Marauder]

Check the Royal Purple web site. They have a link for distributers/dealers.

[Heavy D.]

Sweet. I'm there. Thanks again!

[Marauder57]

You are welcome, Marauder57. Many years ago I put Slick 50 in my sister's heavily used '87 Tempo - It seemed to run better and get slightly better mileage. I tried it in my new '93 Sable when the engine was broken in and didn't notice any difference. My non-scientific opinion on Slick 50 is that in older cars that haven't had regular oil changes, it helps but if you stay on top of it and use partial to full synthetics it makes no difference.

Well I remember when Slick 50 came out....my dad got to using it and there were no problems...don't know if you can attribute it to the Slick 50 or not...but here is my single real life andecdote on Slick 50.

Back in '91 my parents bought my sister a little Toyota pick up truck with Bed cover on back...I think it was a 85 or something....just a small little engine used....but would be something to get around in....anyway my dad put in the Slick 50 like he does with all the cars.....so my sister uses the car for about a year and a half.....goes from Homestead to Ft. Lauderdale maybe 3-4 times a week (for school)...which is about 150 to 200 mile round trip depending on how you go....anyway...the car starts running a little rough and she it was over heating....she calls my dad and he tells her to take the car to the family mechanic and he will meet here there.... So my dad gets there and asks what is wrong with the car.....Basically my sister NEVER changed the oil after my dad did the Slick 50 in and then the first change after...which was at least a year....the engine had barely any oil...infact it would not read on the dipstick.....my dad was POed in a major way....So my dad was like how much to rebuild the engine or should he toss it?

The guy says well I looked in a couple of housings and there is some heavy think oil in there but everything underneath seems fine he asked if my dad ever put in a teflon addititive....Of course my dad said...well he said you saved yourself a new engine.....total cost was about $100 to get all the crap out of the engine and put in new oil......So since then I put it in......

As for oil types...as far as I can concerned if you put in the right weight oil as spec'ed in the manual no matter what it is....you are within the warranty, Dino, Blend, Synthtic, Royal...dont matter....

[Heavy D.]

Sounds like there really is something to it as a failsafe against heavily contaminated oil. Great insight, Marauder57!

Also, to clarify, I called Chicago Mustang back and got the same guy on the horn. I told him about the Royal Purple street version 5w-20 listed on the website. He knew that they made it, he just can't get it from his regional supplier. He was very nice, and never said they didn't make it, he just said they couldn't get it. I would hate for a shop to get a bad rap over a misunderstanding.

[vaderv]

I had contacted Mobil in Feburary and they said they were comming out with the proper weight for our cars in April.... I tried to e-mail them last week and still have no reply??

[Blue Marauder]

Originally posted by vaderv
I had contacted Mobil in Feburary and they said they were comming out with the proper weight for our cars in April.... I tried to e-mail them last week and still have no reply??

I would think that their 0w-20 would work just fine.

[jgc61sr2002]

Originally posted by Blue Marauder
I would think that their 0w-20 would work just fine. I would use the manufactures recommended oil 5 W 20. IMHO. John

[WolfeBros]

Originally posted by Blue Marauder
I would think that their 0w-20 would work just fine.

Would you bet your warranty on that ?

[Blue Marauder]

From the Mobil 1 web site (www.mobil 1.com):

"Mobil 1 with SuperSynTM 0W-20 is engineered specifically for Ford, Honda and any other vehicle where a 0W-20 or 5W-20 engine oil is recommended. Mobil 1 with SuperSynTM 0W-20 exceeds API SL/CF, ILSAC GF-3, and the performance requirements Ford WSS-M2C-153H specification. This full synthetic formulation provides both exceptional engine protection while providing more efficient operation as indicated by improved fuel economy or greater power when compared to more viscous products.

Mobil 1 with SuperSynTM 0W-20:
Flows at -54°C (-65°F).
Provides outstanding fuel economy and fuel economy retention.
Specifically engineered for application where a 5W-20 or 0W-20 lubricant is recommended, such as many late model Ford and Honda vehicles.
Meets API SL/CF and ILSAC GF-3.
Meets the engine performance requirements of Ford WSS-M2C-153H."

If I am not mistaken, Ford WSS-M2C-153H is the spec stated in the Marauder's owner's manual. So I guess the answer is "yes."

[rkk]

Saw a commercial for Royal Purple on the Speed Channel on Sunday...stuff looks like Grape Kool-Aid...

Took the Marauder in for it's 15,000 oil change with fuel filter. Gave the tech 6 quarts of Royal Purple 5W20.

Thinking nothing of it, next day pulled the dipstick only to find out nothing appeared purple on the dipstick.

My question to you, did the dealer just take my oil and give me the regular Motorcraft stuff, or does Royal Purple literally look purple on the dipstick?

I see you say Grape Kool-Aid, but are you referring to the carton or the oil itself?
:censor:

[1 BAD 03 MM]

My 0.02 cents. These 4.6L DOHC engines work with many different weight oils. 5W20, 0W20, 5W30, 0W30. That being said I agree with Sgt. Mac. CLEAN oil, and lots of flow. Newer engines run tighter clearances, which require flow, not pressure. I know some have been suprised by the low pressure numbers are we see when replacing the fake, er, I mean, stock, oil pressure gauge.

For those interested in all things lubrication, (except for one) I suggest the following website.

http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi

I've learned more than I ever imagined surfing this one. :beatnik:

BTW I was running AMSOIL 0W30 (No API starburst) and Ford still replaced my driver side cylinder head. Dealer knew it, and saw my by-pass filter system. All they asked was if it was OK to put 5W20 Motorcraft in it.

[Sactown]

From the Mobil 1 web site (www.mobil 1.com):

........Meets the engine performance requirements of Ford WSS-M2C-153H."

If I am not mistaken, Ford WSS-M2C-153H is the spec stated in the Marauder's owner's manual. So I guess the answer is "yes."

I'm running with Mobil 1 synthetic 0-20, since it meets the specific Ford spec.

[Amsoil_Dealer]

As an Amsoil dealer I have studied the subject of oils and additives extensively and feel complled to comment here. There are so many tangents in this thread though I cannot begin to address all the comments and opinions but I will add a few brief comments:

Motorcraft 5w20 is a synthetic blend. I believe RF Overlord is also correct in saying that all the other 5W20s on the market are also synthetic blends. I believe he gets his info from the BITOG forum which he studies more extensively than I do. Many of the guys on that forum are oil professionals who really know their stuff.

Any of the 5w20s or 0W20s are fine for 3000-5000 mile intervals. As long as you have service records showing that you have had the oil changed within those intervals, your warranty will be valid. By law, Ford cannot refuse a warranty claim based on the brand of oil you choose.

Synthetic oils are a different molecular chain (a more perfect chain) than dino oils. By design are a little slicker than dino oils, flow better when cold, and resist vaporization when hot better than dino oils. This translates into marginally more usable HP at the wheels, marginally better fuel mileage and better general performance overall.

Many people have done dyno tests of synthetic vs. dino oil (including myself) and the results do show more HP to the wheels. I believe most of the gain comes from the driveline lubes rather than the motor oil.

The differences between Mobil-1 0W20, Royal Purple 5w20, and Amsoil 5w20 for a 5000 mile drain interval are probably so small that the results would be with the margin of error of whatever test equipment or lab is used. Used oil analysis in the same car over as close to the same drivng conditions as possible is the ONLY way to truly compare oils.

Marauder 57, your story about Slick 50 saving that Toyota engine is interesting but truly an exception to the norm. There is much more evidence out there, and all oil professionsals to a man agree, that Slick 50, and other such over the counter additives, typically do more harm than good. In fact, most would argue that all the sludge that was built up in that engine and the reason the regular oil was depleted to next to nothing was because the Slick 50 disrupted the normal chemistry of the oil and hastened the breakdown. Your sister was simply lucky that she was driving a Toyota and had the sense to pull over and call before she blew it up. I (and any oil professional I have ever studied) strongly recommend that you do not put Slick 50 (or any other OTC additive) in your Mobil-1.

Royal Purple and Amsoil are samller specialty oil belnders, their products are not as readily available off the shelf as Mobil-1 and niether do as much advertising as Exxon Mobil which is why many of you have never heard of them. Now for the shameless plug. Amsoil is largely sold factory direct and as an independent dealer I can sell Amsoil to anyone in the US and Canada and have it delivered right to your door within a few days. I also offer significant discounts to CVN and MM.net members. PM me if you may be interested.

Don

[Amsoil_Dealer]

Tetsu,
I work in an oil refinery and we have switched to Royal Purple lubricants for all our Rotating Equipment. This was a major economic decision as it is much more expensive than conventional oil (we used to use Amoco lubricants).

Maraudaver, I am aware of Royal Purple's industrial lubricant program and I too have read that their products and synthetics in general have had great success in industrial applications. I tend to agree that based on your success with RP in the industrial applications one can assume that the motor oils are likely quite good as well. One must be cautious to note however, that each application is different and success in one appplication does not necessarily guarantee success in another.

Having said that, will you share a couple of success stories that you experienced in your plant and what results lead your company to go synthetic over conventonal. I think such discussion may help the readers understand the benefit of synthetic lubes over conventional lubes and how the higher costs can be justified.

Don

[1 BAD 03 MM]

Just a note about using synthetic. IMHO, it just makes sense. It's better for your engine, you CAN run longer drain intervals, and the basestocks and additives are made by companies here in the US. If everyone out there ran synthetic, and changed at a reasonable extended drain interval, determined through oil analysis, say 10k-12k. Think of the oil we would save. Now I am by no means an environmentalist, but it helps the environment, and would help relieve the demand for crude oil.

21k a year divide by 3k - 7 Qts*7 OC = 49 Qts dumped :nono:

24k a year divide by 12k - 7 Qts*2 OC = 14 Qts dumped :up:

Most top quality synthetics CAN go even longer, look at 3MP's study

http://neptune.spacebears.com/cars/stories/oil-life.html

Just my 0.02 cents

[RF Overlord]

As far as rkk's recent question concerning the colour that Royal Purple should appear on the dipstick, I know that the oil DOES indeed look like grape Kool-Aid coming out of the bottle, but I've never seen it on a dipstick...I would have to believe that it would have at least some purple-ish colouration to it, at least when fresh...

I think we need TAF or LML to step in here, as they're the only 2 using it that I'm aware of...

[TAF]

I think we need TAF or LML to step in here, as they're the only 2 using it that I'm aware of...
I just pulled my dipstick out for you, RF. (Insert ALL the crude comments you want here...this is "science" darn-it!)

I guess you could say there is a "tinge" of purple on it. This is oil that has less than 1,500 miles in the engine.

[junehhan]

Took the Marauder in for it's 15,000 oil change with fuel filter. Gave the tech 6 quarts of Royal Purple 5W20.

Thinking nothing of it, next day pulled the dipstick only to find out nothing appeared purple on the dipstick.

My question to you, did the dealer just take my oil and give me the regular Motorcraft stuff, or does Royal Purple literally look purple on the dipstick?

I see you say Grape Kool-Aid, but are you referring to the carton or the oil itself?
:censor:

Motorcraft oil should have a light golden color to it that is barely even visible on the dipstick when brand new. If it's Motorcraft oil, it should definately be a really light gold color. I never used Royal Purple, but my friend did before switching to Redline and it definately has a purplish color to it.

[MARAUDERCHICK]

Johnny,

I'm the lone Royal Purple user. I use the 5W30, though. This was recommended by the Ford Master Tech that takes care of mine and I change every 4-5K miles due to mostly highway miles.
No problems to report.
Actually....Todd isn't the lone Royal Purple user anymore! We go to the same Ford Master Tech and he also recommended Royal Purple for my baby too!
And as most of you know.....whatever Todd has or gets.....Kathy usually has or gets too!!:P It's kind of an on-going "who can out-do who thang" hee hee hee

And yes, Todd.....YOU are in the lead at this point, but MARAUDERCHICK is closing in on you!!! "Check 6!!"......;)

[TAF]

Actually....Todd isn't the lone Royal Purple user anymore! We go to the same Ford Master Tech and he also recommended Royal Purple for my baby too!
And as most of you know.....whatever Todd has or gets.....Kathy usually has or gets too!!:P It's kind of an on-going "who can out-do who thang" hee hee hee

And yes, Todd.....YOU are in the lead at this point, but MARAUDERCHICK is closing in on you!!! "Check 6!!"......;)
You are aware that that post was from 11 months ago...right?

Anyway...bring it on girl...I can take whatever you've got...and then some!

[modular46]

I'm using Royal Purple 5W20 since Mobil 1 isn't available in 5W20, and yeah I've heard all the reasoning. The purple bottles are cool too! :banana2:

[junehhan]

You are aware that that post was from 11 months ago...right?

Anyway...bring it on girl...I can take whatever you've got...and then some!


LOL, i'm rooting for Kathy.......

Sorry, but gotta root for the ladies, since you just don't see enough of them in the car enthusiast scene :beer:

[MARAUDERCHICK]

LOL, i'm rooting for Kathy.......

Sorry, but gotta root for the ladies, since you just don't see enough of them in the car enthusiast scene :beer:
THANKS for rooting for me!!:bounce: :bounce: :bounce:

[MARAUDERCHICK]

You are aware that that post was from 11 months ago...right?

Anyway...bring it on girl...I can take whatever you've got...and then some!
Yeah I know Todd!! "And then some".....hmmmm we will just have to see about that! Let's see.....what mod can I get that Todd doesn't have yet????
It just wouldn't be right if I didn't pick on you!!
Hey, if I'm gonna run with the "Big Dogs" I've gotta stay on the "mods"
hee hee hee
:lol:

[kurly]

Well . . . another great oil thread ! :lol:

[427435]

I check this web site from time to time and saw this thread. Oil and oil additives certainly have a lot of stories and theories---some of which are old wives tales. In another life, I was involved with engineering off-highway vehicles (farm tractors and logging equipment) and spent a lot of time in engine selection and testing. I'm also a bit of a "gear head". Let me share a few things learned over the years.

Engine oil is roughly 2/3 lubricating oil and 1/3 addititives (viscosity index improvers, acid neutralizers, and detergents). The VI improvers are what makes an old straight weight 20 oil into a 10w-30 oil. The acid neutralizers keep the acid by-products of combustion from corriding engine parts, and the detergents keep dirt etc. in solution so it can be drained out at the next change (at least what's not filtered out). When the additives get over 1/3 (roughly), lubricating qualities go down hill fast. Less addititives leads to more frequent oil change requirements. Additives are also expensive and I have oil analysis data that shows some "widely marketed" oil having less additives than many other "brand name" oils. When oil can be widely sold for $0.99 a quart or $1.29 a quart, there's usually a good reason.

Synthetic oil doesn't need much (if any) VI improver as the custom "manufactured" molecules already act like a 5W-30 oil. Thus, there's more room for acid neutralizers and detergents---thus longer oil change intervals are possible.

By the way, the first number, in an oil's weight number, followed by the "w", is the viscosity at either 0 or 32 degrees (I forget which, now) while the second number is the viscosity at 180 degrees (or so). The cold viscosities are typically in the 4000 to 10,000 SUS range (SUS=Saybolt Universal Seconds) while the hot viscosities are typically in the 40 to 100 SUS range (huge difference in viscosity as the oil warms). Thus a 10w-30 oil gives you the easier cold cranking and quicker oil pressure to remote parts of the engine of a straight 10 weight oil as well as the stronger lubrication film of a straight 30 weight oil. By the way, the "w" after 10w stands for "winter", not weight. Also, don't worry about a 0w-20 or 0w-30 oil being too light. The 0w only means it'll crank easy and the oil will still be a 20 weight or 30 weight at operating temperature.

We have a 2003 Ford Explorer with the 4.6 V-8. I found it interesting to note that Ford recommends (not requires) a 5w-20 oil for the 4.6 but the same manual recommends 5w-30 for Explorers with the 4.0 V-6. Now I know that a car company has to use its "recommended" oil for its EPA and mileage tests and that a 5w-20 oil will give very slightly better gas mileage than a 5w-30 oil. So why not "recommend" 5w-20 oil for the smaller V-6----which is based on the 4.6 engine design anyway? Probably because the recommended oil has to also have enough lubrication strength to keep the engine running comfortably past warranty---and the V-6 will be working harder (higher bearing loads etc) than the V-8 moving basically the same load.

I'll cut to the chase scene----using a 5w-30 oil that meets the Ford Spec # won't void your warranty. The 5w-30 oil will not only give you good starting and quick cold lubrication but also a stronger lubrication film (ie, longer engine life). Using a good synethic oil will also give you long engine life with fewer oil changes. A good synthetic oil will also probably have better high temperature lubrication due to its "designer" molecules. I don't know anything about Royal Purple or Amsoil but I do know that Mobil spent big bucks developing synthetic oils 20 or more years ago. They were the first to widely offer and promote synthetic engine oils and have way more experience and labs behind their oils. They also have a lot of image to lose if they put a bad product out. (No, I don't own any stock in Exxon-Mobil.) I've also talked to a lot of people in engine labs of major OEM engine suppliers and (although they wouldn't name brands on the record) they always said to stick with a major oil supplier. Their definition of a major oil supplier meant someone that also sold gas---that is Shell, Mobil, Amoco, Texico, etc., not the Pennzoils etc of the world.

Before you flame me with all the stories about 100,000 + miles with this or that oil, remember I'm just telling you what engine design engineers and engine test engineers told me. Most any API oil will work if you change it often enough. However, in my old and still very busy life, I don't have as much time as I used to for changing oil. Thus, I use Mobil 1 and change every 6,000 to 8,000 miles in my highway vehicle and every 4000-6000 miles on my tow or locally driven cars.

I hope this sheds a little light on things.

[EbonyMarauder03]

I'll let you know that the 4.0L SOHC V-6 is a mess. It has 5 or 6 shafts in it and tensioners and chains at both ends. The ones being used in postal vehicles are dying early deaths. After engine replacement Ford is now recommending 20w50 during the warmer months and 5w30 in the cooler months. Because of the idling times they are in need of a heavier oil. The 4.0L SOHC engine is the only one besides diesel NOT to get 5w20.

[Amsoil_Dealer]

.

When the additives get over 1/3 (roughly), lubricating qualities go down hill fast. Less addititives leads to more frequent oil change requirements. Additives are also expensive and I have oil analysis data that shows some "widely marketed" oil having less additives than many other "brand name" oils. When oil can be widely sold for $0.99 a quart or $1.29 a quart, there's usually a good reason.

Thus, there's more room for acid neutralizers and detergents---thus longer oil change intervals are possible.

Using a good synethic oil will also give you long engine life with fewer oil changes. A good synthetic oil will also probably have better high temperature lubrication due to its "designer" molecules. I don't know anything about Royal Purple or Amsoil but I do know that Mobil spent big bucks developing synthetic oils 20 or more years ago.

I hope this sheds a little light on things.

This is well stated 427435. I selected a few parts of your message above on which I would like to add a few comments for the readers at MM.net.

"When additives get over 1/3 (roughly) {depleted}, lubricating qualities go downhill fast". This the same thing that I have always said that oil depeltion is not a linear progression. In most cars with most APL SL rated oils this does not occur until well past 5000 miles so those running 3000-5000 mile intervals need not worry.

"Thus, there's more room for acid neutralizers and detergents--thus longer oil change intervals are possible" Another ture statement in that most synthetic oils do have a more robust additive package that helps the oil endure longer drain intervals. The more stable synthetic base stock and it's resistance to evaporation however, is also critical for long life and extended drains.

Regarding your comments about timelines and R&D. Amsoil was actually the first company to offer an API rated synthetic oil for automobiles in 1972. Mobil-1 was introduced in 1976. That is not to say that Mobil was not developing the product prior to that, it just says that Amsoil released the first product.

Relative to R&D, there is little question that Exxon-Mobil has the most investment, technical expertise, and resources in this area. That does not neccesarily mean however, that they produce a superior product for mass consumption in automobiles. In fact from a cynical perpsective, it could be argued that because they are are Fortune 500 Dow component that they spend equal time and money cutting corners or trying to develop cheaper products sold at full retail prices so they can make more money for their shareholders. I am not accusing them of such practice, merely presenting a counter perspective. We as consumers have little way to know other than what they tell us or what their marketing programs lead us to believe. Used oil analysis cuts through the BS though and reveals much (not all) about the formula of the product and more importantly, how such product performs in your car.

Amsoil, Royal Purple, Neo, Red Line and other companies are specialty lubricant blenders that target their R&D into blending superior oils for niche markets. They very often use synthetic base stocks and additives from Exxon-Mobil and many of the same vendors that Exxon-Mobil uses thus taking advantages of Exxon-Mobil's extensive R&D capability. I don't know each of these companies strategies but based on what I read of their marketing schemes and what I have observed from reading used oil analysis reports, these companies blend their products with a solid base stock plus just a little more of this additive and a little more of that additive so that they can legitimately claim they are number one in their segment and better than Mobil-1. Red Line and Neo seem to blend for maximum HP for racing applications, Amsoil seems to blend for maximum extended drain intervals, and frankly I do not know enough about Royal Purple to make an observation claim about what their niche may be.

The point of all of the above is merely another different perspective intended to open MM.net readers eyes of the facts as we know them.

I'll boil all my comments down to stating my consistent bottom line. There are lots of excellent products out there and the ONLY way to evaluate which is better for your application is through used oil analysis in your car.

I hope this sheds some light (different light as it may be) on the subject as well.

Don

[RF Overlord]

Thanks Don, and 427435, for proving that I'm NOT the only oil geek on this board...

:lol:

[Amsoil_Dealer]

Thanks Don, and 427435, for proving that I'm NOT the only oil geek on this board...

:lol:

You are simply the most famous oil geek on this board. I am waiting for the flames.

Don

[RF Overlord]

Bastage...

[427435]

Quote, "the ONLY way to evaluate which is better for your application is through used oil analysis in your car."

While I agree with you on several things, including that analyzing drain oil is a good idea, it is far from the only way to analyze an oil. The police department, in a suburb of Milwaukee, sought my advice (in the early 80's) on what oil to use in their fleet. They had been using Pennzoil resulting in blown engines at around 100,000 miles with 318 chysler engines. I suggested they send unmarked samples of fresh Pennzoil and several other "major" brands to the lab that we sent our drain oil to from our engine testing lab. The other 3 oils (all dino) were from Mobil, Amoco, and Texaco (they weren't ready for synthetics). The TDN (total detergent number) was much higher (and fairly consistent) between the Mobil, Amoco, and Texaco compared to the Pennzoil.

Using drain oil samples may tell you how long one can go between oil changes and what may be happening in the engine, but to use it to judge the quality of the original oil is much harder-----unless new engines were run, on a carefully controlled dyno cycle, insuring the same operating conditions from one oil test to the next.

I've worked for big companies and, yes, cost is always an issue. But quality has been at least as big an issue for any company I've worked for. We never "skimped" on oil at any of the engine operations I worked for. Oil quality was also a primary concern with all of the engine companies I sourced engines from (including CAT, Cummins, and Deere).

By the way, I don't think GM would use Mobil 1 in the Corvette if they were not only sure of the oil specification but also the quality control, from batch to batch, of the supplier.

My 2 cents and I don't sell oil for a living----nor, as I said before, do I have stock in Exxon/Mobil.

[Amsoil_Dealer]

All,

Perhaps my quote "ONLY" is a bit too strong.

I guess my point is that no matter what the oil companies may say about the quality of their product or what virgin oil analysis reports may say, the only thing that matters is how it truly performs in real world situations (aka our cars). It is my opinion that UOA is a way to prove (or disprove) that the products peform as claimed. UOA can also be way to compare the performance of one product to another in each individual application.

For the record, my comments are not intended to criticize any of the products mentioned. While I obviously prefer Amsoil, the other products are excellent products and I applaud Mobil-1 and Royal Purple for their sportscar and drag car racing sponsorship programs.

I have a question for 427435 specifically. I assume that your screen name refers to the infamous 427 cu in 435 HP Vettes of the late 60s. Is this correct? Do you really have a 427/435? If so, tell us about it.

Finally, while I am a dealer, I do not sell oil for a living. The dealer thing is a side job/hobby for me. I break even at best. And by the way, I DO own stock in Exxon-Mobil.

Don

[427435]

Yes, I have a 1967 vette coupe with the 427/435. It was my first new car. Ordered it in November of 1966 (at the ripe old age of 23) and didn't get delivery until March of 1967. Wore out a brochure looking at it every night for 4 months. I repainted it the original color (marlboro maroon) 10 years ago but the chassis needs restoring now. Changes direction (more than normal) when you get on or off the throttle. Options included PS, PB, side exhaust, tele-steering and a 3:36 posi rear end. Did not order the radio as I wanted an 8-track tape player :lol: (mounted it under the dash).

It was our primary mode of transportation until 1972 (when I bought a 164E Volvo with a 4 speed and O/D). Got 11-14.5 mpg on $0.34 gas and, when you were in a hurry, the shift points were 60, 90, and 120 mph. When you shifted at 120, it pushed you back in the seat hard. The one time I was stupid enough to run it to redline in 4th (150 mph), it was still accelerating good when I hit redline. It felt seriously light, and I learned later that the body did lift badly at those speeds. At 130-140 mph it seemed manageable but I never stayed there very long. It is a minor miracle that I survived my 20's driving that car.

It wasn't very good at the stop light drags with the 3:36's but no one ever came close challenging me on the interstates. Shift down a gear (or 2 if it was serious competition) and pull away. The muscle cars back then were usually not geared for 100+ mph contests and they were pushing alot more air at higher speeds.

Interesting to think that a SC Marauder would beat it the quarter mile (the Marauder would be much better off the line). But it would be an interesting contest from 60 to 120 mph or so. The condition the suspension is in, currently, prevents any "exhibitions of speed", however!!!!

[Amsoil_Dealer]

[QUOTE=427435]Yes, I have a 1967 vette coupe with the 427/435. [QUOTE]

Cool Stuff,

I love old Vettes but I don't know how you guys drove them quickly. A friend of mine had a fuel injected 64 with bias ply tires and while it was fast, it handled like a pig. I hope yours handles better than that one did. You are wise to keep the speed down.

Don

[427435]

Alignment had to be correct---including the independent rear which was new to most alignment people then. When the alignment was correct, the car drove straight and cornered on rails (compared to other cars of its day).

Going to radials didn't hurt anything either.

[jgc61sr2002]

[QUOTE=427435]Yes, I have a 1967 vette coupe with the 427/435. [QUOTE]

Cool Stuff,

I love old Vettes but I don't know how you guys drove them quickly. A friend of mine had a fuel injected 64 with bias ply tires and while it was fast, it handled like a pig. I hope yours handles better than that one did. You are wise to keep the speed down.

Don

1965 was the first year for 4 wheel disc brakes. Made a hugh difference.

[marauder307]

...is LincMercLover?!?!?!?

He's been running Royal Purple for must be close to 5000-6000 miles now, enough for at least one full cycle of oil changes. He could tell us how his car is doing on the stuff...

I'm intrigued by the Royal Purple, especially because my valves are already starting to go (~15,600 miles now), and I need to push it a little farther before I can pull together the evidence I need to get Mercury to fix their @#$!@# faulty heads. Cylinders #7 and #8 are already begging to be put out of their misery, but I can't afford to do it...will probably slam down a quart of Marvel Mystery Oil to salve the situation, but until I can prove that my dying engine is Mercury's fault, I've got to go a little farther...

[427435]

Good oil won't solve a factory defect. However, as I pointed out above, the reason for Ford recommending 5w-20 oil, in most of their engines, isn't to maximize engine life but rather to maximize their EPA fuel economy ratings. That's why I use a 5w-30----why would you want to have a thinner oil at operating temperature when the oil is 500-1000 times thicker, anyway, during cold start. If the oil is thin enough to circulate during a cold start (and any 5w certainly is) why not use the bigger number at hot operating temperature??

During the summer, on my tow vehicle, I'll go to 15w-50 to provide still more lube strength under the heavier duty cycle and resulting hotter engine temps.

On the other hand, I recommended to my son to use 0w-30 in his car, that sat outside during Minnesota winters. When spring came, then back to the 5w-30 weight.

[junehhan]

...is LincMercLover?!?!?!?

He's been running Royal Purple for must be close to 5000-6000 miles now, enough for at least one full cycle of oil changes. He could tell us how his car is doing on the stuff...

I'm intrigued by the Royal Purple, especially because my valves are already starting to go (~15,600 miles now), and I need to push it a little farther before I can pull together the evidence I need to get Mercury to fix their @#$!@# faulty heads. Cylinders #7 and #8 are already begging to be put out of their misery, but I can't afford to do it...will probably slam down a quart of Marvel Mystery Oil to salve the situation, but until I can prove that my dying engine is Mercury's fault, I've got to go a little farther...

Out of curiosity, won't the factory warranty take care of it? Have you been to the dealer yet?

[427435]

Lubricants can't make up for a factory flaw but they can help marginal situations. Which is why I've never used a 5w-20 oil (at least during the summer). Today, with 5w-30 oils available, it's just foolish to use a 5w-20 (and no, 5w-30 oil won't void the warranty where 5w-20 oil is "recommended"). As long as it's rated at 5w on the first number, it will flow quickly and provide quick lube during cold starts (the viscosity will be several thousand SUS when cold), However, when the oil is up to operating temperature, the 30 weight oil will be thicker than the 20 weight oil, thus providing better lubrication. The viscosity for either the 20 or 30 weight oils, at operating temperature will be down to less than 100 SUS-----certainly thin enough to provide lube in today's "tighter" engines (if indeed they really are tighter).

I don't know if using 5w-30 oil would provide enough better valve guide lubrication in a 4.6 (a chronic problem going back to when this engine came out) to avoid this problem, but it wouldn't hurt it either.

[marauder307]

...is LincMercLover?!?!?!?

He's been running Royal Purple for must be close to 5000-6000 miles now, enough for at least one full cycle of oil changes. He could tell us how his car is doing on the stuff...

I'm intrigued by the Royal Purple, especially because my valves are already starting to go (~15,600 miles now), and I need to push it a little farther before I can pull together the evidence I need to get Mercury to fix their @#$!@# faulty heads. Cylinders #7 and #8 are already begging to be put out of their misery, but I can't afford to do it...will probably slam down a quart of Marvel Mystery Oil to salve the situation, but until I can prove that my dying engine is Mercury's fault, I've got to go a little farther...


I've been apprised of one other possibility...that it could be the rockers. A trip over to a related forum website that covers all vehicles powered by the 32-valve DOHC engines (that's us, plus a lotta others) suggests that the rockers are merely putting out their usual noise, that they "pump up" after some hard running (sorta like my engine....sorta) and that all I'm getting is the customary "klack-klack-klack" sound. I dunno.

I'm not that blessed with mechanical ability. What I know for a hard fact is this: There are a fair number of reports of Marauders dropping dead from bad heads; ancillary evidence suggests that we got the leftovers from a bad production run of the Mustang Cobras. There's no recalls that directly address our engines, but the 2v 4.6s in the GMs HAVE been TSB'd for their heads, and looking around, the Mustang Cobras (which DO run the same engine as us) have been TSB'd for THEIR heads. Now I'm hearing tapping coming from an area of MY engine that's been reported on other engines as being a problem spot, namely the 7 and 8 cylinders at the rear of the engine
(whichever cylinder is the one directly in front of the driver, or closest to the drvr's side front wheel well).

Doing the math here: I have an engine problem, and it's most likely the valve heads. Sure wish I had a dedicated wrench in the local STL area who was on intimate terms with these engines; I've already encountered subtle resistance from the dealer, and I don't really have anyone else to turn to.

The prosecution rests, martyo...

How's that for deductive logic?

[junehhan]

I've been apprised of one other possibility...that it could be the rockers. A trip over to a related forum website that covers all vehicles powered by the 32-valve DOHC engines (that's us, plus a lotta others) suggests that the rockers are merely putting out their usual noise, that they "pump up" after some hard running (sorta like my engine....sorta) and that all I'm getting is the customary "klack-klack-klack" sound. I dunno.

I'm not that blessed with mechanical ability. What I know for a hard fact is this: There are a fair number of reports of Marauders dropping dead from bad heads; ancillary evidence suggests that we got the leftovers from a bad production run of the Mustang Cobras. There's no recalls that directly address our engines, but the 2v 4.6s in the GMs HAVE been TSB'd for their heads, and looking around, the Mustang Cobras (which DO run the same engine as us) have been TSB'd for THEIR heads. Now I'm hearing tapping coming from an area of MY engine that's been reported on other engines as being a problem spot, namely the 7 and 8 cylinders at the rear of the engine
(whichever cylinder is the one directly in front of the driver, or closest to the drvr's side front wheel well).

Doing the math here: I have an engine problem, and it's most likely the valve heads. Sure wish I had a dedicated wrench in the local STL area who was on intimate terms with these engines; I've already encountered subtle resistance from the dealer, and I don't really have anyone else to turn to.

The prosecution rests, martyo...

How's that for deductive logic?

If your stealership doesn't take this issue seriously, what was their excuse for why they don't? I personally would call Ford corporate and report this problem to them, because Ford needs to know for those who are having this issue. Out of curiosity, how much oil are you consuming, and is your car smoking on cold-starts?

My dealership in the past told me it was normal, but I finally took them out and showed them to noise which prompted them to spend a lot of time with the Ford hotline.

[marauder307]

Well,...I think the SW and the wrenches prolly do believe me, june. I've been good about spreading goodwill; even helped 'em sell a MM. But they're playing the time-honored old game of "well, if you don't have any documentation...". You and everybody who reads this has probably heard that line before.

I wish I could get schooled in the finer points of engine construction. I yawned my way through the introductory shop classes in high school; I know the basics (the very basics) but the more I think about this situation, the more my uncertainty grows. Is it the valves? Or maybe just the rockers? My gas mileage, if anything, has improved slightly the last few weeks---definitely NOT a symptom of engine failure. But I do know for a fact that the tapping/klacking/whatever under my hood is getting louder, and (to answer your other question, june) I HAVE observed puffs of black smoke from the driver's side tailpipe on a hot start, when standing outside the car. Can't see anything from inside the car when lighting-off.