Another before and after dyno test...

[Tucker]

Well the dyno shop across the street did a before and after JLT install this weekend and sent me over the results.

Before and after done 40 minutes apart.

As you can see, peak #'s were 10 RWHP and 10 RWTQ with gains through out the RPM range as much as 12-15 HP & TQ :banana:

No tune, No leaner then stock A/F, No BS.

$140/10-15 RWHP & TQ :burnout:

Just thought I'd share this with you guys.

Thanks
Jay

[SergntMac]

Yep...That's a good looking bone stock dyno report, if it's a Marauder on the DynoJet drums. About what I would expect from any induction kit. AFR looks nice and smooth too. Bravo, Jay, that's good bang for the buck gains!

[supa_carrot]

Looks good. That gives me a real idea on where I should be at in the RWHP category. I've yet to stop bragging about this product, thanks.

[Tucker]

Thanks for the reply Sarg.
I must say, I've yet to see a graph posted from any other induction kit with these kind of gains.:D

If I remember correctly, someone did a test on another brand and only saw about 5 RWHP. I can't quite remember the brand though......

I'll have to do a search.

Thanks for the comments.;)

Jay

[fastblackmerc]

I've been nothing but pleased with my JLT.....

[Smokie]

I did a before and after with a PHP CAI. If you would like to see it let me know, congratulations on your results they are impressive.:)

[bigslim]

Thanks for the reply Sarg.
I must say, I've yet to see a graph posted from any other induction kit with these kind of gains.:D

If I remember correctly, someone did a test on another brand and only saw about 5 RWHP. I can't quite remember the brand though......

I'll have to do a search.

Thanks for the comments.;)

Jay
I posted a graph a couple of years ago when Lidio did my car. It was the first N/A MM that he had done a K&N on. It was before the blower. The dyno showed an increase of about 7 hp. After the blower it was an increase of about 20 hp. Actually, we did five pulls before and five pulls after the K&N. The average results was about 7 hp.

[Tucker]

After a search I was able to find some good info.

Bigslim, I hope it's ok to post a quote:
The difference between to the worst run w/o the charger and with the charger was 4.3hp and 5 ft pds of torque.

Also a quote from Lidio:

This is why so many gimmicky, over hyped parts seem to never really own up to what’s claimed when I actually get my hands on this stuff. Always seems like claimed numbers aren’t quite met when unbiased, consistent and proper tests are preformed.

The linky still worky too: http://mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?t=14133&highlight=K%26N

Not too bad.

[SergntMac]

Just adding a comment about dyno testing of mods in general, nothing for anyone to take personal.

The reported "gains" of any mod (if any) hinge on what is cured with the upgrade. There have been some reports of induction kits adding twice what we expect from a Marauder, and sometimes it's true. It all depends on how poor the factory induction system was designed, and how well (or poorly) it functioned. A K&N induction kit on a 4.0L V-6 indeed may add double digit gains, "it depends" on what is getting replaced.

I recall when Paul released his PHP induction kit, and reported a 17 RWHP gain. However, that "B&A" testing included the addition of a PHP intake spacer, so, back then, it wasn't a clean "before and after" afterall.

It's usually up to us owners to put the real mod to a real test, something that's been a practice of mine from day 1 here, and I never put my name on stuff I haven't personally tested.

IMHO, the Marauder was blessed with a pretty decent induction system from the factory, and conservative gains (conservative in comparasion to the same kit on other vehicles, that is) tend to come up on the short side in numbers. We should not be disappointed, the dyno stuff is only half the story anyway. Back to back ETs are a valid test too, combine the two as best you can.

Just my .02C, carry on gents...

[Tucker]

Just adding a comment about dyno testing of mods in general, nothing for anyone to take personal.

Personal ?
I posted a dyno graph, nothing personal at all. Not sure why it would be? Plus it's the internet... I do not take the internet personal.

Your absolutly right, it's the ET that counts. The dyno is for testing to see if said part gained any engine power, then it's up the the driver to get that new proven power to the ground! If it's there, it's there.

What I'm trying to do here in the JLT forum is show all new and old customers that we get what we claim. So buy with confidince, that your money will be not wasted on a part that doesn't live up to it's claims. Nothing more.
If I shelled out $250-$300 to the biggest and best and only saw 4.3 RWHP when I was "hooked" into thinking I'd get 17 or more, I'd be pi$$ed.
We test what we sell.:beer:and so do our customers!

Thanks all,

Jay

[mrjones]

I was gonna post in the other most recent thread about the sale, but then this thread came up. I ordered my kit last week with the sale, received it on Monday, and finally put it on after mowing the yard today. Install went pretty smoothly, but I did break one of the little rubber grommets that holds the stock airbox when I removed it.

I hear everyone talking about doing the install in about 30 minutes or so, but I took about an hour. After I had everything off, I took the throttle body off and cleaned the back of it, along with the inside of the intake as far as I could reach. I know that Ford says not to clean the throttle body, because it has a protective coating on it to prevent sludge build up, but if the sludge is already there, what good is it doing. I've had the throttle bodies begin sticking on my Expedition and F150, so I thought a little preventative maintenance would be good. Besides, it looks better.

I put a K&N on mine other two Fords, and I wrestled with K&N because the couplers they supplied wouldn't stay on the engine. I've heard comments about the sewer pipe couplings in the JLT kit, but after wrestling connections together, I don't think they're going to come apart easily. Besides, if anything breaks, I can get replacements over to the Home Depot!!!!

My first impression was that the car did feel a little stronger, but I didn't buy it because I thought it was going to give me huge hp gains. I bought it for the noise, and it provides that by the truckload!

I double checked all the fittings, and it doesn't seem like anything is rubbing the hood liner, but I'll keep an eye on it. My only disappointment was in the third of fourth line of the instructions, where it's talking about the paint on the pvc pipe - "this pipe is painted with the same high-quality paint as your car". Well, crap. I've got a June 02 build 300A, and I've already had my hood painted!!!!!

I'm gonna enjoy listening to it!!!! Thanks for the quick shipping Jay!

[Ken]

I've been nothing but pleased with my JLT.....Ditto

Ken

[studio460]

Well, I checked my receipt, and it shows that I first bought my JLT intake on November 29, 2004! Well, I finally installed it tonight, over a year and a half later, and boy, does it sound cool! I *think* the car's noticably faster, and according to Tucker's dyno, it probably is. Only problem on the install is, I dropped one of the JLT-supplied nuts that hold the MAF to the plastic JLT bracket! Thanks, JLT, for a great product at a great price!

[studio460]

Oh yeah, since I have a custom FordChip EEC-flash tune (which is still a little too lean--still detonates once in a while under strain), I was expecting to have the engine cough and die at every turn. But, after the intake install, I just disconnected the battery for ten minutes, and drove it like I stole it for an hour. The car immediately drove great, and runs better than it ever has, all with no re-tune!

[Blackened300a]

I did a before and after with a PHP CAI. If you would like to see it let me know

Im very interested in what the PHP kit did. I had too many mods to figure out what did what for me on the dyno

[Smokie]

Im very interested in what the PHP kit did. I had too many mods to figure out what did what for me on the dyno

Out of respect for Tucker's forum I will PM you the link, I don't feel it is appropiate for me to put up my dyno sheets here.

[Tucker]

I would love to see them as well. Send them my way too.

Also, give the details on the car and how the test was performed. This can be important.

Jay

[Eric91Z]

This is a nice comparison. I know there are differences between Dyno's, but my car was dyno'ed on a DynoJet above ground. The only performance mods are the JLT intake and XCal2 running Lidio's 93 octane tune. I put down 260.5 RWHP and 280.3 RWTQ. So that looks like about 15 HP and even more RWTQ with the tune. I guess it did more than just increase driveability.

I like my JLT very much and it is a good match with the tune!!!!

Here is my dyno sheet:

http://www.mercurymarauder.net/showcase/files/1/1/3/5/DynoGraph1.jpg

I know temp, altitude, etc will effect differences, too.

[Smokie]

I would love to see them as well. Send them my way too.

Also, give the details on the car and how the test was performed. This can be important.

Jay

Ok: Here are my results, PHP Airbox. This is a before & after same day, same dyno, no parts where changed other than the airbox. The car is N/A, has a custom tune and shorty headers and X-pipe. Net peak results are about 6 hp & 9 tq. However look at what happens at about 2800 rpms and follow it to 5200, the gains are as high as 15/16 for both hp & tq. Here is a link to detailed post:DYNO_TEST (http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?t=14370)

http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=49 75&d=1102464586

[Tucker]

Thanks for posting the graph Smokie. :beer:

One major thing to look at is not the 15 RWHP as we also see, but the fact that the PHP makes this power by minipulating the A/F and leaning it out big time.
If you look at the JLT graph on the first page the JLT keeps a near exact A/F as the factory stock run. This is important.

If you put the PHP on a car that was on the lean side to start with, then leaned it out even more there could be a problem.

Thanks for sheading some light for me on the PHP. This is also the same basic kit as on the Cobras from PHP and Steeda. There basiclly a filter and a shield, so there's no real magic there, but what they do is rotate the MAF from the stock position and this inturn leans out the A/F as it would in tuning.
Many don't know this, but when you change the MAF position (rotation) you can actually change the A/F and lean or richen the A/F.

Next time your on the dyno try it, it works. This is how K&N, Steeda, Tunable Inductions and many others make there power. It's dangerous to play with this type of system if not on a dyno or not having a wideband A/F gauge.

They all work, there's no doubt, but it's how it does it is the thing.

Cool,
Jay

[Smokie]

Thanks for posting the graph Smokie. :beer:

One major thing to look at is not the 15 RWHP as we also see, but the fact that the PHP makes this power by minipulating the A/F and leaning it out big time.
If you look at the JLT graph on the first page the JLT keeps a near exact A/F as the factory stock run. This is important.

If you put the PHP on a car that was on the lean side to start with, then leaned it out even more there could be a problem.

Thanks for sheading some light for me on the PHP. This is also the same basic kit as on the Cobras from PHP and Steeda. There basiclly a filter and a shield, so there's no real magic there, but what they do is rotate the MAF from the stock position and this inturn leans out the A/F as it would in tuning.
Many don't know this, but when you change the MAF position (rotation) you can actually change the A/F and lean or richen the A/F.

Next time your on the dyno try it, it works. This is how K&N, Steeda, Tunable Inductions and many others make there power. It's dangerous to play with this type of system if not on a dyno or not having a wideband A/F gauge.

They all work, there's no doubt, but it's how it does it is the thing.

Cool,
Jay

Just for the sake of accuracy, you are correct that the PHP has an effect on the A/F ratio but it does not make the car leaner it makes the A/F ratio rich.

I arrived with an A/F ratio of 13 and I left with an A/F ratio of 13 at the tailpipe they are very smooth lines not spiky like the wideband that was hooked to a bung on my X-pipe. The dyno operator wanted to adjust back to 13 using the wideband because he insisted it was more accurate than the tailpipe.

The graph that you see above has two separate bits of information; power readings are the before (exactly as my car arrived) & after (final adjustment back to original 13 A/F ratio) BUT the wideband readings you see in the same picture represent the effect of PHP right after install, the RICH reading is the effect of PHP kit, the leaner reading is adjusting back to where I arrived.

All this information is detailed in the link that I provided with the picture, but just like I didn't want to write all this, I guess nobody took the the time to read the explanation (link) of the graph I provided.:)

[Tucker]

Smokie,
Now I'm more confused then ever.
I did read the post and as I read it you lost 3 HP with the PHP kit and NO adjustments to the tune???

Then after as you say it "Dennis calls out instructions for a correction...and we run again." you get the power you expected.
What was this instruction?? A tune adjustment??

This is not a CAI intake swap comparo if that's the case. This is a CAI and tune.

I read the post over and over again and this is the way it looks to me.

Plus, the graph you post here is not how your explaining. Both runs are not in the 13's.
Run 001 is the before and with 283 HP and a 11 A/F and run 005 is the after with the 289.1 HP and a 13-14 A/F how is the A/F the same and this a fair test?
I'm not being a smart a$$, just trying to get all the facts as it should not be this confusing.
A test is a test. No tuning should be needed for a intake swap.

So all in all you gained "Net Results: +6.1 hp -- +8.6 tq" with a PHP intake and a tune adjustment.
What was the total cost for this including tuning?

If I'm off the mark please explain, but this is what's in your post.

Respectfully,
Jay

[Smokie]

Smokie,
Now I'm more confused then ever.
I did read the post and as I read it you lost 3 HP with the PHP kit and NO adjustments to the tune???

Then after as you say it "Dennis calls out instructions for a correction...and we run again." you get the power you expected.
What was this instruction?? A tune adjustment??

This is not a CAI intake swap comparo if that's the case. This is a CAI and tune.

I read the post over and over again and this is the way it looks to me.

Plus, the graph you post here is not how your explaining. Both runs are not in the 13's.
Run 001 is the before and with 283 HP and a 11 A/F and run 005 is the after with the 289.1 HP and a 13-14 A/F how is the A/F the same and this a fair test?
I'm not being a smart a$$, just trying to get all the facts as it should not be this confusing.
A test is a test. No tuning should be needed for a intake swap.

So all in all you gained "Net Results: +6.1 hp -- +8.6 tq" with a PHP intake and a tune adjustment.
What was the total cost for this including tuning?

If I'm off the mark please explain, but this is what's in your post.

Respectfully,
Jay

Jay, nothing wrong with asking.:) Very simple when the PHP was installed I lost HP and gained Torque, if I had bought thru mail. I would have 3 less peak horses and gained 7 peak lb/tq. If you wish you can simply stop right there and say "this is what PHP" gives you. Even with the the -3hp/+7tq the gains of torque at about 2800 rpms. were about +15.

The reason I did not want to simply drive away at that point is because the RICHER A/F was going to affect my mpg, so Dennis corrected the A/F ratio back to where it was 13. I am not trying to convinced you that what I have is better than what you sell. Read my post very carefully, I am only correcting that the PHP box made my car's A/F ratio richer not leaner .

By the way, what kind of car did you guys do the test graph you posted on??? The Marauder does not N/A make more HP than TQ, I have seen personally at least 60 Marauders dynoed in front of me, not including my own car's 20+ dyno runs, the only time I have seen Marauders make more hp than tq is when the car is supercharged and the car in the graph obviously is not. Thanks, Javier:)

[Smokie]

...So all in all you gained "Net Results: +6.1 hp -- +8.6 tq" with a PHP intake and a tune adjustment.
What was the total cost for this including tuning?

If I'm off the mark please explain, but this is what's in your post.

Respectfully,
Jay

Fair question, Dennis sold me the PHP airbox which included the "sock" filter cover, installation, dyno runs and A/F correction "the tuning part" to get my A/F ratio back to what it was when I arrived; for $300. I did not arrive with a bonestock MM.-- my car had full exhaust, php intake spacer, U/D pullies and a custom tune, I don't know what caused the A/F ratio to go RICH after install, I know that for a very reasonable price Dennis put back my A/F ratio back to where it originally was.

I was more than satisfied with the price for what I recieved, Dennis has always treated me very well and he wanted me to be happy with my purchase and get the best possible safe power results from my purchase. I hope this helps to make things clear.:) Javier.

[Tucker]

By the way, what kind of car did you guys do the test graph you posted on??? The Marauder does not N/A make more HP than TQ, I have seen personally at least 60 Marauders dynoed in front of me, not including my own car's 20+ dyno runs, the only time I have seen Marauders make more hp than tq is when the car is supercharged and the car in the graph obviously is not. Thanks, Javier:)
Just went back through my 100's of dyno runs and the first Marauder we tested was within 2-3 HP vs TQ as is this one.
Same went for my MACH's and 99/01 Cobras, so it all is very close.

I understand much better now, thanks.

Jay

[SergntMac]

I've had some experience with rotation of the MAF for a better tune. Clearly, finding the "sweet spot" in rotation is beneficial, because rotation reduces internal turbluence of the air charge after it leaves the MAF. This is the major reason I converted from a "blow through" to a "suck through MAF assembly.

In all cases where the induction path is improved over the OEM location, will result in a change in AFRs Move it one way, you may get a better tune, move it the other, maybe not. Don't rotate it at all, and you're not exploring your full tune potential.

Calling out MAF rotation as being a trick, or, manipulative of the facts, well, that's just short-sighted. What ever setup you choose, if that allows for MAF rotation, try it and see what's possible. This is just good fine tuning, and not reflective upon the style or content of any particular aftermarket kit.

[Tucker]

[quote]
In all cases where the induction path is improved over the OEM location, will result in a change in AFRs Move it one way, you may get a better tune, move it the other, maybe not. Don't rotate it at all, and you're not exploring your full tune potential.

Not true, this is what we are saying in the very first post and graph. Complete intake replacement and very, very little A/F change. You can make power with out leaning the A/F. We do it everyday on the Marauder, MACH and Cobras.


Calling out MAF rotation as being a trick, or, manipulative of the facts, well, that's just short-sighted
Short sighted? No not really. What I'm saying is these kits that make for a MAF rotation are doing this to adjust the A/F for a leaner more powerful A/F then stock. This is how THEY make power. If you look at the kits that do this they are just a filter and shield, nothing more. This alone will not net you there power claims with out the MAF being rotated.
I've tested this, I know.

What ever setup you choose, if that allows for MAF rotation, try it and see what's possible. This is just good fine tuning, and not reflective upon the style or content of any particular aftermarket kit

Agree 100%, but be sure to do it on the dyno where A/F can be read. Thisis why in our directions we state "be sure to put the MAF back in it's stock rotation"
Other companies may not mind putting customers cars on the lean side, but we do not. We make more power without the leaner A/F.
All cars are differant and you can not assume a set spot will be good on all cars. Case in point Smokies car. He (in theroy) should have gone lean and made power, but it went the other way, making the PHP look bad. It the stock rotation was kept I'd bet more power and a closer A/F would have been had.

[Smokie]

Don't want to get caught in rotating MAF wars:lol: but I do like to learn, I was present during the change from stock to PHP airbox and my MAF looks to be in about the same position as stock, the plug in harness limits rotation.

My question: when you guys talk about rotation, do you mean milimeters??? I know for a fact that my MAF did not change orientation within 1/4" of original position. What sort of amount of rotation is being discussed here???

I want to LEARN not pick a fight ok?:D

[Tucker]

Don't want to get caught in rotating MAF wars:lol: but I do like to learn, I was present during the change from stock to PHP airbox and my MAF looks to be in about the same position as stock, the plug in harness limits rotation.

My question: when you guys talk about rotation, do you mean milimeters??? I know for a fact that my MAF did not change orientation within 1/4" of original position. What sort of amount of rotation is being discussed here???

I want to LEARN not pick a fight ok?:D
No fight here man, it's cool.
By rotation we mean the "clock" position of the MAF.
If yours was the same with in a 1/4" or so your good.
Think of it as if you could look into the front of the MAF. For instance the 03 Cobra MAF is set at about the 10:00 position. Many kits rotate it to the 12:00 position and this has proven to lean the A/F resulting in power gains, but many have seen dangerous A/F's as well.

In my testing it seems changes are about every 2 hours (clock rotation) or so. It's not super critical, but if your close to stock your good.
It's odd that the PHP was near stock and made the car 2 or more points richer. Another instance where you can not predict what will happen on every car.

Jay:beer:

[Smokie]

In my testing it seems changes are about every 2 hours (clock rotation) or so. It's not super critical, but if your close to stock your good.
It's odd that the PHP was near stock and made the car 2 or more points richer. Another instance where you can not predict what will happen on every car.

Jay:beer:

Cool, learning is what is all about. This is my thought on a possible reason for the too rich a/f, I did not have stock exhaust, is it possible the combination of better flowing intake combined with better flowing exhaust caused the MAF to "overreact" and increase fuel too much???:)

[SergntMac]

Don't want to get caught in rotating MAF wars:lol: Neither do I.

-30-

[rayjay]

FWIW, in June 05 I had my MM dyno tuned. My induction mods at the time were a PHP manifold spacer and a PHP airbox/JLT tube hybrid setup. The A/F ratio was rich and was leaned out when tuned to 13.5, almost flat across the board.