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View Full Version : wtf, do I have a tune?



Raudermaster
08-07-2006, 09:52 PM
Alright guys shed some light on this situation. My car is bone stock, or so I thought. A buddy of mine test drove a few Marauder's he's come across. I've had my car up to 115 and 125 already no problem at all, I can chirp the tires going into 2nd, rain on the ground I can get 1st to spin, 2nd to chirp and 3rd to chirp at WOT and my buddy said he couldn't get an '04 to get the tires to chirp at all. What gives, am I dreaming, going insane, or did the 50 yr old lady who had it before me go drag racing on the weekend?

DEFYANT
08-07-2006, 10:05 PM
Go to the track and see what times you get. Then you'll know if her son or grandson was the one who drove the car.

Mad4Macs
08-07-2006, 11:29 PM
Better yet, go to the dealership and have them re-flash the car. If you're slower at top end and can no longer chirp your tires, yes, you had a tune!

:lol:

Gre8one7
08-08-2006, 01:41 AM
i couldnt chirp my tires stock...best way is to take it to the track like defyant said (hes always right)

ckadiddle
08-08-2006, 06:33 AM
Judging by my 03's behaviors before and after Reinhart tune with xcal2, I would spspect strongly that you do indeed have a tune.

jawz101
08-08-2006, 06:43 AM
I can mainly tell if I'm off/on a tune because my car shifts w/ more authority. If it shifts smoothe you're stock but if it winds out your probably tuned

mcb26
08-08-2006, 06:43 AM
Are the shifts solid, if so you have a tune.

SergntMac
08-08-2006, 07:27 AM
Go to the track and see what times you get. Then you'll know if her son or grandson was the one who drove the car. Best answer so far.

No real way to tell without some testing, either at the track or on a dyno somewhere.

All stock Marauders will perform differently, and a lot of that depends on how it was driven from day 1. Presume that the former owner treated it kindly, and you're reaping the benefits of a gentle break-in.

RoyLPita
08-08-2006, 08:00 AM
Don't change a thing. There are times I wish I had your luck.

Raudermaster
08-08-2006, 08:25 AM
That's so weird though. If I shift into 2nd myself from 1st, it shifts very hard. I just can't imagine that I have a tune already.

MM03MOK
08-08-2006, 08:28 AM
Jarod....Can you look at the PCM and see if a piece of the back was knocked out to insert a chip? Of course it could have been flashed, but maybe there's a chip in there, which is how the early tuning happened. Did you find your code on the driver's door hinge area?

SergntMac
08-08-2006, 09:26 AM
That's so weird though. If I shift into 2nd myself from 1st, it shifts very hard. I just can't imagine that I have a tune already.Then don't believe it. What you describe is normal behavior when shifting from 1 > 2 manually. Any Marauder can do that and chirp the tires, because the tranny is free reving between gears. Like dumping the clutch on a manual. BTW, It's not healthy to do that.

bradical
08-08-2006, 10:11 AM
My (mostly) stock 04 can easily smoke the tires (traction control off) and chirps second at WOT every time. Must keep traction control on in wet or car goes sideways. Tranny shifts very firm with the stock program.

Raudermaster
08-08-2006, 10:40 AM
I never said '04's can't spin/chirp the tires, I just said a buddy of mine could not get an '04 he test drove to do it, that's all. Mary, the whole PCM is in tact, I had to stick a flashlight up to see it, but it still has the cover on with the sticker for my code. And yes, I checked the code and it's BMD0.

Meteorite
08-08-2006, 11:05 AM
Then don't believe it. What you describe is normal behavior when shifting from 1 > 2 manually. Any Marauder can do that and chirp the tires, because the tranny is free reving between gears. Like dumping the clutch on a manual. BTW, It's not healthy to do that.
Actually, the last part of that is not correct. Ford fully anticipates that some customers will perform manual shifts, and protects for that eventuality. The tranny is not free revving between gears. The transmission is carefully calibrated so that there will be no engine flare. Just as there should be no flare with the automatic shifts.

By the way, I do work for Ford's Automatic Transmission Engineering organization. Just saying.

Breadfan
08-08-2006, 12:55 PM
Well...hate to bring this back up but you mentioned having it up around 125...the limiter should've hit by then, or at that point if O/D was off. The limiter is somewhere between about 117 and 125...a tune would remove this.

I'm certainly not saying to try again...but since you mentioned it.

Sanctioned track events are a different story, BTW.

Blackened300a
08-08-2006, 01:05 PM
Well...hate to bring this back up but you mentioned having it up around 125...the limiter should've hit by then.

I hit 125MPH stock with my 300a, I would also be able to spin off the the line and chirp only when manually shifted into 2nd.
Whats your idle set at?, What RPM does it shift into 2nd at WOT?, When does your T/C Lock-up? If your car was in fact tuned, these things may be different then a stock Marauder.
Otherwise I would have to say that you have a strong Marauder.

SergntMac
08-08-2006, 03:07 PM
Actually, the last part of that is not correct. Ford fully anticipates that some customers will perform manual shifts, and protects for that eventuality. The tranny is not free revving between gears. The transmission is carefully calibrated so that there will be no engine flare. Just as there should be no flare with the automatic shifts.

By the way, I do work for Ford's Automatic Transmission Engineering organization. Just saying.Thanks for the info, can you be more descriptive of these calibrations?

What happens on my #3 300B, is that under WOT, I'll shift 1 > 2, and for a split second, nothing happens. The tranny neutrals, I gain about 1000 RPMs, and hit the rev limiter just before 2nd gear drops in. And boy-oh-boy, does it drop in hard. If there are some calibrations that are supposed to prevent this, do you think my tranny is broke? If so, I'll take it in to the dealership.

My first Marauder did it, and so did the #1x, until Jerry W. rebuilt that with some changes to the springs in the accumulator pumps and some valve body drilling that expedites shifting. Now it's happening on my #3 MM when I manually shift, which I don't really do anymore. That bang noise can't be good.

Mods...Guess it never stops, eh?

CRUZTAKER
08-08-2006, 03:31 PM
Then don't believe it. What you describe is normal behavior when shifting from 1 > 2 manually. Any Marauder can do that and chirp the tires, because the tranny is free reving between gears. Like dumping the clutch on a manual. BTW, It's not healthy to do that.

Exactly...particularly if your car has matured. IE: Been driven over 15,000 miles. Most autos, including ours, wake up after a certain amount of milage, and begin to act differently...in a good way.

Meteorite
08-08-2006, 05:56 PM
Thanks for the info, can you be more descriptive of these calibrations?

What happens on my #3 300B, is that under WOT, I'll shift 1 > 2, and for a split second, nothing happens. The tranny neutrals, I gain about 1000 RPMs, and hit the rev limiter just before 2nd gear drops in. And boy-oh-boy, does it drop in hard. If there are some calibrations that are supposed to prevent this, do you think my tranny is broke? If so, I'll take it in to the dealership.

My first Marauder did it, and so did the #1x, until Jerry W. rebuilt that with some changes to the springs in the accumulator pumps and some valve body drilling that expedites shifting. Now it's happening on my #3 MM when I manually shift, which I don't really do anymore. That bang noise can't be good.

Mods...Guess it never stops, eh?
SergntMac,

If you get a chance you should ask Jerry W. about what might be going on. He did the original Marauder 4R70W calibration, right? Anyhow, he used to work here in Livonia where I now work.

It does sound like something is not right with your Manual 1 to Manual 2 shift. Now that I read your description of it, I can see why you came to the conclusion you did (about the engine/trans spinning up). What I should have said was that for a normal 1M>2M shift, this should not happen. What puzzled me initially is that, for both the 4R70W and 4R75W, the 1-2 is a non-synchronous shift. That is, there is only one element controlling the shift. The Intermediate Clutch comes on, and the Low OWC overruns. Usually engine flares occur in synchronous shifts, because there you have to carefully time an oncoming element (clutch or band) and an off-going one.

Is your Car #3 un-modded? With enough extra engine torque over stock, the stock calibration may not provide enough pressure to the oncoming element (that would be the Intermediate Clutch for the 1-2 shift). Then, you could toast the Intermediate Clutch (glaze or burn the friction plates), and after that, any number of bad things could happen. So, when you make more torque, the calibration needs to change, so that your shift duration stays short enough.

If not, and the Intermediate Clutch sustains damage, then you will get a drawn out shift, which may be what you're seeing. The Intermediate Clutch is doing it's best to haul the Forward Clutch drum and front sun down to a stop. Meanwhile, you're still at WOT, and the engine is accelerating. Finally the Intermediate Clutch locks and you are in 2nd gear. But by now you tons of engine inertia, spinning very fast, which wants to be down at the 2nd gear speed for whatever your vehicle speed is. This so-called I-alpha torque dumps down your driveline suddenly, and that's (if I'm right) the bang you're hearing.

I totally agree with your conclusion, by the way. If it is doing this, I too would stop doing manual shifts at WOT.

gpfarrell
08-08-2006, 07:59 PM
Actually, the last part of that is not correct. Ford fully anticipates that some customers will perform manual shifts, and protects for that eventuality. The tranny is not free revving between gears. The transmission is carefully calibrated so that there will be no engine flare. Just as there should be no flare with the automatic shifts.

By the way, I do work for Ford's Automatic Transmission Engineering organization. Just saying.


Cool! I'll keep doing it then... thanks for anticipating customers like me!

Drock96Marquis
08-08-2006, 08:11 PM
My (mostly) stock 04 can easily smoke the tires (traction control off) and chirps second at WOT every time i happen to be the buddy Jarod is reffering to.


I could not get any of the 04 MMs to chirp them WOT 1-2, even if manually shifted (trac off of course). THe 04s seemed more wiling to get some tire spin off the line, and seemed to have more grunt off the line, but none that I have driven wanted to do it without a little intervention with the brake pedal :D When the trac was on the 04s though, the trac would engage on a WOT 1-2 shift, meaning it came damn close to chirping them.

All of the 03s I have driven felt more sluggish than the 04s, and did not exert any feel of coming close to breaking those 245s loose on anytype of WOT shift or WOT off the line. I imagine the 4r75w/ better t/c on the 04s, combined with the better tuning is what helped the low end on them a lot. The 04s seemed more fun to drive bone-stock, hell my Marquis felt quicker off the line than the 03s I have driven :P But I would still rather have any year MM, once that baby hits 2500rpm+ there is NO doubt there is 300+ horses under there :cool:

All of the MMs, 03 and 04s i have driven were BONE stock powertrain wise. Your car may be mostly stock, but you do have a different intake and spacer (dont know the gains from the spacer though..?)

As Mac said, every car is different. Some feel fast than others. Some were abused by the previous owners, others, like yours (Jarod) and mine, lived an easy life.


Jaord, take a look at the altenator, around the pulley... Do you see any buld of black/brown dust?
If so, that means that the car has seen a a few good WOTs (meaning belt slip) THe last MM I looked at (and came close to purchasing), 03, had a good amount of build up on the altenator, rear tires pretty worn and wasn;t taken great care of overall (a few scratches, curb rash, and other abuse that turned me away from it). That felt to be the slowest 03 i had driven to date, I think it had a slight case of the blue smoke issue as well. That car felt slow, nothing like another 03 i had driven with half the miles than it and driven by a 60+ yr old man felt like.

Jarod, your car looks excellent, it was obviously taken well care of and driven moderately. As a result your car probably feels even better than new :)

Also, another thing not to discredit:
At times a customer will bring the car in and the dealer themeselves will reflash the PCM to aid the problem. For instance our Town Car felt overly sluggish than our previous one, the dealer reflashed it and now it feels much peppier. What exactly the altered with the re-flash? I have no idea, but it feels much better. My Marquis was also reflashed some time by delaer by the previous owner. How do I know? Both of ours have a sticker, located somewhere in engine bay that says "Ford Authorized Modification: PCM re-calibration xxxxx-blah blah blah" On it is the calibration number of the new tune. I took mine off and put it in the owners manual, another owner may take it off and throw it away, but take a look around, it is possible the dealer themeselves altered the tuning some per request.

BTW, FWIW, my floor-shifted 4r70w has no 'flare' or neutral/free-revving characteristics when manually shifted either :)

Raudermaster
08-08-2006, 08:42 PM
Thank you for the kind comments Derek, and your great knowledge. I will have to check for that re-cal sticker tomorrow. The funny thing is, my engine bay is a bit dirty, but there is no dust around the alt. :) I have to just think why the car is strong, is because of the previous owner took very good care of it and broke it in properly.

SergntMac
08-09-2006, 10:33 AM
SergntMac, If you get a chance you should ask Jerry W. about what might be going on. He did the original Marauder 4R70W calibration, right? Anyhow, he used to work here in Livonia where I now work.Thank you for the detailed explanation, it was a lesson learned from Jerry as we rebuilt the #1x tranny.

I've been curious about the differences between the 4R70W of the '03s and the 4R75W of the '04s (more so now, as this may have something to do with the variety in replies here). Can you detail for us the reason, or, cause for a new 4R75W designation, and what changed occurred?

Meteorite
08-09-2006, 11:31 AM
T
I've been curious about the differences between the 4R70W of the '03s and the 4R75W of the '04s (more so now, as this may have something to do with the variety in replies here). Can you detail for us the reason, or, cause for a new 4R75W designation, and what changed occurred?
The power-flow is the same for the 4R70W and the 4R75W. The reason for the change in designation is that the 4R75W is rated to handle more torque. Whatever used to be the weakest link(s) for durability must have been improved, beefed up. I'm not in that department, though, so I don't know the list of changes.

hbarrett
08-09-2006, 11:37 AM
Maybe you have a tune and 410s?
Alright guys shed some light on this situation. My car is bone stock, or so I thought. A buddy of mine test drove a few Marauder's he's come across. I've had my car up to 115 and 125 already no problem at all, I can chirp the tires going into 2nd, rain on the ground I can get 1st to spin, 2nd to chirp and 3rd to chirp at WOT and my buddy said he couldn't get an '04 to get the tires to chirp at all. What gives, am I dreaming, going insane, or did the 50 yr old lady who had it before me go drag racing on the weekend?

SergntMac
08-09-2006, 12:21 PM
If you want to know about gearing, what's your RPM at certain speeds, like 60 and 70 MPH. Give us that 411, and we can conclude rear gear ratio very easy.

bahnstormer
08-09-2006, 03:41 PM
Maybe the 50 year old lady you refer to wasn't the first owner of the car...

SergntMac
08-09-2006, 03:49 PM
The power-flow is the same for the 4R70W and the 4R75W. The reason for the change in designation is that the 4R75W is rated to handle more torque. Whatever used to be the weakest link(s) for durability must have been improved, beefed up. I'm not in that department, though, so I don't know the list of changes.Not a lot of help for what seems a simple inquiry, but thanks for taking a shot at it.

If anyone can "fill in the blanks", it would be appreciated by many members here.

Raudermaster
08-09-2006, 04:55 PM
Maybe the 50 year old lady you refer to wasn't the first owner of the car...

She had no kids, she lives in my town, I have run the VIN on it, and the dealer even showed me the Title to it saying she bought it new in 2003 on the lot.

KillJoy
08-09-2006, 04:56 PM
Maybe you just have a rare freak of a MM. BE HAPPY! :D

KillJoy

Meteorite
08-09-2006, 06:01 PM
Not a lot of help for what seems a simple inquiry, but thanks for taking a shot at it.here.
You're welcome, of course.

But it really isn't that simple to track down all the changes. I made some preliminary attempts to find differences. I brought up the exploded views of both transmissions to check the number of friction plates in the Intermediate Clutch. Both have three. I cannot tell from those pictures whether they have the same area and mean radius or not.

I am pretty sure the case changed, but I don't know what parts of it.

I do know that the changes were fairly extensive, because the plant here paid as much attention to the launch as if it was an all-new transmission. I talked with a Livonia Transmission Plant worker a few years back, and he was telling me about all the overtime he worked when they launched the 4R75 product. IMHO, the 2004 MM owners can be thankful for the fact that this trans also goes into the F-150. They were not about to "blow" a launch that big.

I did hear someone say that the output shaft changed. If you've ever spent much time looking at AOD / AODE / AODE-W / 4R70W / 4R75W output shafts, you know that there are a beaucoups of features on there. I imagine that some of the fillet radii were increased for the 4R75, for instance, but I don't know which ones.

If I had to guess, I would say that there were on the order of 2000 changes between the two transmissions. My day job gets in the way of the hobby, unfortunately. But I gave it a shot.

SergntMac
08-10-2006, 02:11 AM
Thank you again, sir.

Raudermaster
08-10-2006, 08:36 PM
Around 60mph, I turn about 1800-2000 rpm's.

Bradley G
08-11-2006, 04:22 AM
300 rpm difference @ 60mph with 4:10 gears.
Nail down the rpm @ 60 you'll have your answer.
No one mentioned the Adaptive Learning feature on our trans.
Do both transmissions have this?
Around 60mph, I turn about 1800-2000 rpm's.