To mod or not to mod? That is the question...

[Heavy D.]

Hi again,
Man, this site is addictive. Okay, my question is:

Without doing anything that would void the warranty, what's the best way to improve performance? I'm also curious what you all think about the future value of this uncommon vehicle - say in 20 years (low miles, garaged winters) would a car that's been "Hot Rodded" be worth the same as a "Classic", provided the owner had all original parts?

I'm thinking in the performance category a K&N airfilter and better plugs would help. Any Recommendations?

[MAD-3R]

Hmmm,
Without voiding warrenty...

Plugs. Maybe.

Uhmmm, Thats about it...

K&N may not void the warrenty, but we have no proof that it helps with performance ether.

:rolleyes:

[jerrym3]

Unless you make visual changes to the engine (SC, headers, etc), who will know that other mods have been made?

I wouldn't buy a used car with serious performance mods for the simple reason that nobody does serious modifications for big bucks unless they intend to make use of them frequently.

[RF Overlord]

...and if you get right down to it, even using any plugs other than what the factory specified "WILL" void the warranty if you get into a shouting match with your dealer...

Let's face it...ANY mod is a crap-shoot when it comes to the warranty, it's just that some are less likely to cause a problem than others...

Heavy, use your own comfort level as a guide...in most cases things like a chip, plugs, gears, underdrive pulleys, torque converter, exhaust...in short, any of the mods that members of this board have already done, are most likely not going to wreck your drivetrain...these are all time-tested mods...putting a blower and/or nitrous on it may be a bit more problematic in the long haul...

A K&N filter is highly unlikely to cause a problem, unless you over-oil it...but as MAD-3R said, it's not really a performance booster, either...

[69Marauder]

Did you buy it as an investment or to put away as a future collector car? Or if you want to have as much fun with it as you can, than modify it as much as you want and the heck with the warranty. I can't speak for other dealers, but mine would fix any problem that was not related to a modification (if I blew an engine that I felt was caused by adding a supercharger or something like that, I wouldn't expect them to pay for any damages that the supercharger caused) but if the A/C crapped out than they should fix it, my dealer would.

[mdmarauder]

My thought on mods is that anything that gives a significant gain in power will void the warranty. You have to go into the mods assuming you will lose your warranty. Your dealer might have a Service Manager that is mod friendly. But remember that could change at any time. I don't have the disposable income to replace a motor, trans. etc. So mine will stay stock.

[SaxGuy]

If you want to have the safety of your warranty, stay stock. Mod at your own risk!

[merc406]

If you have BIG pockets of green, go for it, afterall it is suppose to be a muscle car, and it should have performed more like one out the door.

[Mark McQuaide]

If you have the dealer do the gears, you'll have a great performance boost and you won't risk the warranty. Then have Dennis reprogram the PCM without a chip, and you're set!

[MAD-3R]

Not nessasary on the no risk. IF the SM changes, the new one my say that it does infact void the warrenty.

[SergntMac]

Heavy...you pretty much have the 411 on most of this by now, seems that the most knowledgable have checked in already.

I'd like to back up a second, to fix one thing. Plugs. The only rationale to upgrade the plugs you see here, is only to fine tune the Reinhart chip. Ditto with the t-stat. Denso IT 20 plugs are colder than recommended, the T-stat lowers engine temps, and both bring the 4.6l better performance under the Reinhart chip.

I wouldn't suggest you change plugs or t-stat alone, that could be problematic, and cause a loss of performance. But, you can use the chip alone. To not fine tune it with the plugs and t-stat is kind of holding it back, but that's your choice.

BTW, I'd like to add that all of my mods are "bolt-on" and all my OEM stuff is shelved, so, if father time comes to honor the MM as a classic, mine could meet full OEM standards in a few hours.

[Mark McQuaide]

Originally posted by MAD-3R
Not nessasary on the no risk. IF the SM changes, the new one my say that it does infact void the warrenty.

If the gear change and PCM reprogram for the speedo was done by an authorized service center and logged in Ford's system, I'd think you would have a decent case for warranty coverage, at least better than if done by a 3rd party.

I'm sure the dealer would also charge an arm & a leg. I believe a PCM reprogram runs at $100 alone.

[MAD-3R]

Tru tru

[rumble]

Hello folks, heres my two cents worth. I have been working for automobile dealerships for 40+
years, with various manufactures (not FMC) and in various capacities including service manager. I have
dealt with "factory reps" who were very customer friendly and with ones who felt their only job
was to come up with reasons to deny warranty claims in order to save the manufacture money.
I recently had a conversation with an old friend who has been a service manager at a Dallas
Ford dealer for several years. I had told him that I was going to purchase a Marauder soon and
I wondered how much FMC frowned on mods. He said (not exact words but as close as I can recall)
"Ford has really clamped on warranty expenditures" he also said "they are really down on modifications,
they have gone so far as to send out regular E-mails with Vins of cars that have been in other Ford
dealers and found to be modified" I asked him what kind of mods and he said (again his words as I
recall) that "especially in the F-250 and the Mustangs they are to watch for chips, boost gauges, oversize tires,
non stock exhaust systems." I said "surely they won't void your warranty because of a (expletive
deleted) boost gauge?" His understanding was that if he got a vehicle in with these things it probably
signified a warning sign. He said he had not actually had this happen in his shop but FMC told him
if they do a warranty claim on one of these blackballed vehicles they would bounce it. I asked him
further "if you have a chip in your ECM and say a front wheel bearing goes out will they bounce
that too?" I figured lets start with the extreme and work down from there. He said "no, they can't
do that but any drive train issues, engine, trans, drive shaft and rear end they will deny the claim." I guess
the point of this long winded diatribe is we know how hard it can be sometimes to get regular warranty
service at FMC dealers that if we want to mod we need to careful where we take our MM.
The idea is to find a "customer friendly" Service Manager like many of the members here have found.
If you can't find one that understands the passion we hold for this machine then be very careful what
and how you do anything (or just say "screw the warranty, lets have fun).

[jgc61sr2002]

rumble - Welcome to the sight. Thanks for your insight. I was speaking to a SM friend who basically stated the same about MODS. If there is a problem FMC will look to void the warranty if they can. I plan to keep mine stock. John :(

[jgc61sr2002]

Originally posted by Mark McQuaide
If you have the dealer do the gears, you'll have a great performance boost and you won't risk the warranty. Then have Dennis reprogram the PCM without a chip, and you're set! Mark - I agree the gears give the greatest performance boost. John

[Heavy D.]

Thanks for all the great posts and insights, everyone. So far I'm pleased with the performance, and based on the advice here I'll start with the K&N air filter and wait for the warranty to expire before chips and stuff.

Thanks again!

[SergntMac]

Originally posted by Heavy D.
Thanks for all the great posts and insights, everyone. So far I'm pleased with the performance, and based on the advice here I'll start with the K&N air filter and wait for the warranty to expire before chips and stuff. Thanks again!

"wait for the warranty to expire..."

ROTFLMAO what a crock of *****, Heavy! Oh, please stop, I'm crying!

I got a hundred bucks on the table, right now, that says you'll be turning bolts and calling Dennis by Labor Day. The car will just not let you treat her that way...

Any takers?

[Marauderman]

OMG!!! Gee!! It took for ever!!! to get thru all the post on this to reach this point..Damn! AM having a fit here reading this......crap and double crap...look! ALmost had the car ripped apart in front of me and decided to hell with it....went Stage I and couldn't be more happier..and I have already said before ...screw the warranty....if they can't build a high performance "muscle car" that last 36 K miles..then screw it...you ALL lose who don't go ahead and mod..suppose you wait and then mod out what you want--then something goes wrong--by then so much has passed under the bridge you cannot recover the info and knowledge to fix it and you know YOUR dealer isn't going to do it..and you missed out cause you when thru the "warranty period" doing nothing...to me thats..welll almost said something I shouldn't..guess my motor mouth has said what it feels...waiting is wrong.....don't you feel comfortable your car won't break down...if NOT..what the Hell did you buy it for....your not gonna do anything with Stage I that will cause a problem... I gotta stop...it just upsets me to hear all this "I'll wait stuff" --guess it really shows ..huh!

[RCSignals]

Three year and longer warranties really spoil us.
However did we get by with 1 year warranties, or 6 month warranties even? We seemed to take small problems for granted back then too.

[Heavy D.]

Sarge,
If I see yours before the warranty expires, you're probably right! Seriously, I'm reluctant to mod since I'm doing a lot of interstate driving and would hate to get stuck somewhere with a large out of pocket expense. I'm no milquetoast, just a little paranoid considering the cost of an out of warranty engine repair.

On the other hand...

Argghhh!! Cognitive dissonance!

[Heavy D.]

Okay, took me a while to catch up with all the posts. So, I could have the dealer put in a 4:10 rear end, and have Dennis flash the existing chip? Would just flashing the chip give any improvements with the 3:55?

[RF Overlord]

marauderman:

Well said! I see three types of people on this board:

1). Those of us who have chosen to mod our cars to whatever degree, and are enjoying the hell out of them.

2). Those who would LIKE to mod their cars, but have financial constraints.

3). Those who, for reasons of their own, choose NOT to mod their cars.

In reference to your reply above:

1). You're preaching to the choir.

2). You're preaching to the congregation, and they'll join the choir as soon as they can.

3). You're preaching to the non-believers, whose souls are condemned to purgatory.

With tongue firmly planted in cheek, I respectfully request an END to this discussion...

:this thread sucks:

[Marauder57]

Heavy,

I feel you pain on the wait for the warranty to go....but then again you have the car and I don't yet (maybe will have one real soon!!! But don't want to jinx it)

I think you can enjoy the car with out mods....but I am sure once you have one.....the need for more over time will eat you alive...

The problem for me...I am weak....and I am only 90 minutes south of Dennis....I am doomed.... :help:

[RF Overlord]

Originally posted by Marauder57
I am weak....and I am only 90 minutes south of Dennis....I am doomed.... :help:

ROFLMAO!

[Heavy D.]

I learned a lot so it didn't suck for me... Isn't that why we're here? Should I not post if the thread "sucks" by some definition (I'll have to check the faq again)?

Just some questions from a guy on the fence about modifying.

[RF Overlord]

Heavy:

Perhaps I should have made my "tongue-in-cheek" reference more obvious...

I did NOT mean to dis anyone's decision to mod or not to mod, it's just that half of us keep saying DO IT! and the other half keep saying NO! NOT 'TIL THE WARRANTY'S UP!

Each of us must make up his/her own mind...it's YOUR car, YOUR money (and a lot of it)...so do what you're comfortable with...

BUT FOR GOD'S SAKE LET'S QUIT RE-HASHING THE SAME ARGUMENTS OVER AND OVER AD NAUSEUM...

:this thread still sucks:

:lol:

[FordNut]

Heavy:
Yes, having the chip re-flashed will help even with the 3.55 gears. Engine performance is not as noticeable as the improvements to the tranny. It shifts firmly like a performance car should instead of being mushy like a luxury car.

[Marauderman]

Thanks RF--your right---It's everyone's choice--as to what they want to do.......oh ......you know I want to say more but I won't...
I'm calm now --thanks RF again....what they need is to ride in one that is mod already..then it's all over..some day it will be to late for them....gotta stop..sounding more like prchman more and more..huh..

[Bigdogjim]

I do not want to start a new thread so I will post this on the tail end of this hot thread. Why does every Marauder have to/or need to modified? Why can some one not drive the MM in its present state and enjoy it?I seam to detect a high amount of passion here? Are we not talking about a car? New people come to us "old timers" for advice. That has been the reason we looked upon with respect? Just my .02 or as others say IMHO.
Flame away.......................... .............................. .........................

[FordNut]

I feel like the engine performance is ok stock, but the tranny shifting control program stinks. I notice this more than anything when I swap from my modded MM to the wife's stock one. If the tranny worked better from the factory I probably wouldn't have changed anything at all, but once I got started I couldn't stop!!

[RCSignals]

Originally posted by Bigdogjim
I do not want to start a new thread so I will post this on the tail end of this hot thread. Why does ever Marauder have to/or need to modified? Why can some one not drive the MM in its present state and enjoy it?I seam to detect a high amount of passion here? Are we not talking about a car? New people come to us "old times" for advice. That has been the reason we looked upon with respect? Just my .02 or as others say IMHO.


Well said Bigdog

[TAF]

:YAWN:

[RCSignals]

get some sleep Todd

[Heavy D.]

Great, thanks for all of the info! I might have been able to piece it together from other posts, but it was cool getting some specific questions answered. I'm going to stop replying to this thread now.

Really, I am.

But what about...

[mdmarauder]

I agree Big Dog. I do have to say this, everytime somebody says the got their new MM ten posts come over saying MOD, MOD, DO MODS. Not everone wants mods or is unhappy with the stock performance. Ok...I'm done.

[SergntMac]

Let me add to the boredom, I'm good at this. Don't hammer me on the numbers, this isn't any refined research, just my .02c.

There is at least 4100 MMs on the street right now.

We have about 800 members on this site.

Those of us who post and read, average about 100?

The majority of whom mod their MM is some manner, including "just a K&N filter"

That why we are the "Two Percenters," and the majority of the exchanges here speak "mod, mod, mod."

I figured this out a while back, and that why I stole LMs "2 percent" lable and gave it to us here. If you are not passionate about your MM, and you are not inclined to play with it in any manner, chances are that you know nothing of this web site and we'll never hear from you.

There are only 100, maybe 150 of us here actually participating in the forums, and playing with our cars. This is why the exhanges are circular, and in some ways, limited in scope...Someone wake up Todd, his snooring is getting on my nerves.

[mdmarauder]

Sarge,

I really enjoy the site, on it most of the day actually. I'm beyond obsessed with my MM. I just don't feel the need to modify it mechanically. If others choose to mod that's great. Sometimes all the complaining about the stock performance just gets to me.

[SheboyganGuy]

I would have to say I'm in agreement with mdmarauder. I love my new Marauder, right now I like it just the way it is.... Just like I love my 86 Mustang GT, 37,000 miles, and totally stock...

[Paul T. Casey]

Cheapest, safest mod going is MILES. This car seems to love miles. 2500 was good 5k better, 10K yep, now nearing 25K and it gets better. Dunno why, maybe just learning how to outfox the computer on my own!

[WolfeBros]

No one is knocking anybody for not modding their cars but let me put this argument in perspective for you.

Those of us who have made a change or a mod to their cars know exactly what the stock Marauder performs like. We have been there and have decided to improve upon it.

Those of you who have not made a mod to your car do not know where we are coming from. (unless you have driven a modded car) Even if you never want to see WOT or speeds above 70 mph.....some of these changes enhance the day to day drivability of the car. What you are seeing on this site, (a car enthusiast site no ?) is the excitment and enthusiasm that comes from taking a great car and making it better. I for one will never see a drag strip with my car and could care less about racing it. But as a performance car nut for over 40 years I want a car that I could put through its paces and have it preform to the fullest of its capabilities.

We don't look down our noses at the one's that want to stay bone stock. Hey we are glad you are here. You know enough about cars that you picked a good one to purchase. Just don't try to dampen our enthusiasm and passion that makes us want to make simple changes, that can be undone if desired and take the performance of the car to a place where it should have been.

The change in the shift program for the transmission is worth the price of admission for a chip even if you just use the car once a week to get groceries IMHO.

So mod it or not. Its your car and do with it what you will.
I personally don't care one way or the other unless you happen to get in my way. :D

Now roll over Todd........your snoring is keeping me awake.
yawnnnnnnnn

[Fourth Horseman]

I can't speak for anybody else here, but for myself I am holding off on drive train mods for one reason: money.

I'm a student and don't have tons of excess money. Buying the Marauder in the first place stretched my finances about as far as they could comfortably go. If I blow an engine or screw up my tranny and Ford denies the warranty, guess what? I'm screwed. I could not afford to eat that cost. End of story.

I know you're all bored with this thread, but please understand that some of us are waiting on the mods because we don't really have a lot of choice. I kill my daily driver and Ford balks on the warranty and I'm just screwed.

[RF Overlord]

Gosh darn it all to heck...I told myself I was not going to contribute to this thread any longer, but I have to say ONE more thing...if for no other reason than for the benefit of those who, like our good friend Mr. Heavy D, are fence-sitting...

Not having excess cash laying around, or not wanting to spend said cash, is a perfectly legitimate reason for not modding your car...being afraid of the consequences is a different matter. Dennis, et.al., would not be in business very long if he sold parts that blew up peoples cars (and AFAIK, ReinhartAutomotive is Dennis's only business)...all of the mods being done on this board are mods that have withstood the test of time. Much more problematic would be buying one of those "tune-it-yourself" boxes that allow people to change the ECM programming at will. Change the wrong parameter, or change one too much, and you may turn your motor into a boat anchor...

Gears, torque converters, WELL-WRITTEN chips, mufflers, etc are very unlikely to cause damage to your car...so either DO the mods and enjoy them, or DON'T, but whatever you do, do it for the right reasons.

OK, now I'll STFU...

[MN6]

RF, I agree with you and initially I was not going to do any mods to my MM and put the money to something else (like my Camaro) but after the feedback from this site I jumped in with both feet, up to my neck. I cannot be happier with the Newly Revised Program and other driveability changes that have been made. I am fully aware that the mods that I have done may get me in trouble later, but you only live once and with a car like this how can you not at least do something to make it your own. Just so long as RF doesn't leave his slippers in the back seat. Just so long as you are willing to take and understand the risk - Mod to your hearts content. Just remember Saturday, who would have the best warranty case with a blown motor, the 7 relatively stock Marauders or the Grey Cobra with the Lightweight Hood....Now I will go back to work, need more money for Mods.........

[RF Overlord]

Originally posted by MN6
Just remember Saturday, who would have the best warranty case with a blown motor, the 7 relatively stock Marauders or the Grey Cobra with the Lightweight Hood....

Or the blue Mustang with a ProCharger blower, or the red Mustang with nitrous...

:lol:

[MAD-3R]

Heavy,
The choice to Mod or not to mod is your's to make. It's one each and everyone of here has made. When I got my marauder back in 8/02, I wanted to mod it, but I couldn't due to what I refered to as WWW.

Wife
Wallet
Warrenty

Well, my wife changed her mind, and sence that is the most important one, I went ahead and Modded. Do to an issue somewhere in the vacinity of the oil pump, I fried my motor, and I was denied warrenty. I currently have a marauder with a block undr the hood, and all the bits and pieces in the trunk (yes, I have called Corprerate and hope to hear something today or tomarow.) I am "out" between 5 and 10k. But being the Optimistic Pessamist that I am, Things are bad, but the can get better. I can take the 10k that Ford wanted to put a new, STOCK motor and new PCM (sence the old one had it's access port opened) and give it to someone else, and have a stronger, faster and better motor then before.

Will it be worth the pain, suffering and headaches? Maybe.

Would I do anything differantly? Hell yes!! I would get the Pullies removed before I took it to the dealer!!

Do I regret modding? NO!! Once the ship sails, all bills are paid.

So to finish the quote

To mod or not to mod, that is the question. Whether 'tis nobler in the wallet to suffer the slings and arrows of outraged SM's, or take arms against a sea of lawyers, and by opposing, end them.

[RF Overlord]

Originally posted by MAD-3R
To mod or not to mod, that is the question. Whether 'tis nobler in the wallet to suffer the slings and arrows of outraged SM's, or take arms against a sea of lawyers, and by opposing, end them.

Methinks yon noble MAD-3R hath quaffed from his goblet of Guinness once too often...

:lol:

[Fourth Horseman]

Please understand, I was not trying to imply that DR's products or anybody else's would cause my engine or tranny to fail. Engines and trannies fail all on their own without any modification. My concern is that something will go south on my powertrain all by itself and that Ford will simply use the mods as an excuse to screw me.

Once I'm out of warranty I'll be modding. No question about it. I'll probably even mod my car a bit more before then, but it'll be when I feel I can afford to repair any problems out of pocket.

Ok, I'm done. Thanks for listening.

[Marauder57]

Cheapest, safest mod going is MILES. This car seems to love miles. 2500 was good 5k better, 10K yep, now nearing 25K and it gets better.

Well I have found that all Ford V8's run smoother with miles. My F150 has 88K and it runs great!


Gears, torque converters, WELL-WRITTEN chips, mufflers, etc are very unlikely to cause damage to your car...so either DO the mods and enjoy them, or DON'T, but whatever you do, do it for the right reasons.

As for the MODS I think we should all keep something in mind...some of us have not been driving a "performance" car prior to MM ownership. So if you go from 190HP or 210HP to all of the sudden 302HP....big difference and performance to that person has been greatly increased.....So that and warranty issues are good reasons for waiting.

I don't have mine yet...but I think I will wait a little while just to see if anything pops up warranty wise....and enjoy the new power for a while before I make a change...but Rineharts proximity to my house may change that time line....CURSE YOU RINEHART!

I think the thing to keep in mind is the MM is just a great machine....it is well built enough that the new performance owner can enjoy the car at stock....and the total gear head can MOD the thing into oblivion.....

Its all good..... :coolman:

[Heavy D.]

I know I said I wouldn't respond again, but MAD-3R, that last one really made my day - your optimism in the face of problems is truly inspiring, and finishing the quote made me laugh so hard I almost fell out of my chair.

RF Overlord, methinks you are right about the Guiness!

Fourth Horseman and other non-modders, I'm of the same mind.

All you modders, God bless and I'll be looking forward to seeing your tailights.

Until my warranty expires...

[WolfeBros]

Me thinks we could merge this thread with any one of the many on oil currently running on here and the resulting cyber chaos would cause a blackhole in cyberspace so deep that the resulting backlash would cause the earth to slowly start spinning in the opposite direction making it possible for those with warranty issues or concerns to be able to take it up with the dealership before you even buy the car hence rendering this thread useless and giving back the bandwidth to serve the internet and those in the pursuit of happiness a chance to find the answer before the reverse polarization kicks in and sucks your keyboard thru the screen clogging up the information highway for at least two hours. :confused:

Pass that goblet and I'll have whatever the rest on here are drinking.......:lol: :lol:

And that boys and girls is a run on sentence.:beer:

[TAF]

:YAWN: Fell asleep because I was bored wiith the same 'ol topic, rehash....woke up...and it's still going on :YAWN:

Wake me when we get a "fresh thread", will ya?

Sorry about the snoring:o

[LincMercLover]

Wolfe,

No fair! You can't diss your own thread! That's my job! :lol:

[Bigdogjim]

Originally posted by Marauder57
Well I have found that all Ford V8's run smoother with miles. My F150 has 88K and it runs great!

If you think they run great at 88K waite till you get to 200,000+



I think the thing to keep in mind is the MM is just a great machine....it is well built enough that the new performance owner can enjoy the car at stock....and the total gear head can MOD the thing into oblivion.....

Its all good..... :coolman:

Now that says it all:) :D :cool:

[tetsu]

Mods.....

I'm all for making modifications. However, I'm not real wild about the dollar/hp ratio of most of the current solutions. I am most likely going to leave my car almost completely stock until I'm out of warranty and then probably only go mild with a chip after that until I'm done dailying it. I cannot see spending $5k for that first second. I'd rather just put a S/C and driveshaft on and just straight to low 13s. I wish that Ford sold EFI version of their 460 the way that Chevy does with their Rat. I think an Outlaw style hood would be excellent.

Anyways, I have no plans to ever sell my Marauder. One day, 20 years from now, I hope that I can have an article written about mine in Car Craft. Imagine how much more cool our cars will be when all the new cars are 90 hp hydrogen econowagons.

We are approaching a great cusp of Musclecars and SUVs that will end in a terrifying implosion that will make 1974 look like a picnic. I just hope that I can arrange to own an Excursion just once before then. :)

Johnny