More Low end torque wanted.

[Bowman9]

Is there anyway to get some more low end torque???
Without going to a supercharger.

Here are the mods I already have.

SuperChips Custom Tuner 9100 (Lidio)
180 Degree Thermostat
Ford Motorsport 4.10 Gears
Steeda Underdrive Pulleys
K&N Coldair Kit

[juno]

Torque converter. The PI stallion increases torque by at least 25% when it spins up. It lowered my 1/4 times by .6-.7 seconds by itself.

Now you can discuss which stall speed. I would recommend 2800-3000 since you already have 4:10's and get the car retuned for the TC.

[SergntMac]

Don't buy any exhaust upgrades.

[Bowman9]

Yeah, I had heard that you loose low end torque when you make exhaust changes.


Don't buy any exhaust upgrades.

What does a torque converter cost (average)?


Torque converter

[GA-Marauder]

Several of our vendors have them. Check out Reinhardt (sp?) Automotive. I know its on there.
BTW, I have a 3000 stall TC and I think its the best mod I've done.

[Tom Doan]

I got a PI TC with 1000 miles on it for 500.00, been trying to sell It for 9 months here with no takers, so I am breaking the rules and listing it here because no one looks at the classified section or maybe I have too high of a price. Tom 301 633 8395

[SergntMac]

Bowman...Call Tom, that's a steal on a PI.

Torque converter. The PI stallion increases torque by at least 25% when it spins up. It lowered my 1/4 times by .6-.7 seconds by itself.Indeed, but be careful. The PI Stallion will not show any results on a dyno, but oh boy look out at the track.

Not only does it multiply more torque (2.53:1 vs 1.91:1 stock), it's smaller and lighter than OEM, reducing parasitic drag in the driveline. This may not build more engine torque itself, but the PI-TC makes much better use of the torque that is available.

I'm not surprised to see your personal improvements, congrats.

[Architect]

Several of our vendors have them. Check out Reinhardt (sp?) Automotive. I know its on there.
BTW, I have a 3000 stall TC and I think its the best mod I've done.
This questions for anyone....What's it cost to install a TC like this?
Architect

[Blackened300a]

Reinhart sells a 3K stall during his summer special for $700.
If Im not mistaken, I think that was the TC that Tom Doan offered to me which was converted from a 3K stall to a 2700 stall.

[Blackened300a]

This questions for anyone....What's it cost to install a TC like this?
Architect

I paid $250 and thats the common cost for the install

[MarauderTJA]

Bowman...Call Tom, that's a steal on a PI.
Indeed, but be careful. The PI Stallion will not show any results on a dyno, but oh boy look out at the track.

Not only does it multiply more torque (2.53:1 vs 1.91:1 stock), it's smaller and lighter than OEM, reducing parasitic drag in the driveline. This may not build more engine torque itself, but the PI-TC makes much better use of the torque that is available.

I'm not surprised to see your personal improvements, congrats.

What Mac said ^^^

[MM_BKK]

Is there anyway to get some more low end torque???
Without going to a supercharger.

If you want to really light up the rear tires, go with a 3500 stall. You won't regret it! From dead stop, it will feel like you've added some kind of power adder, but you really didn't. That's the effect of torque multiplication from the converter. It's awesome! :D :D :D

[mpearce]

I paid $250 and thats the common cost for the install

$300 is average, and what I believe to be a good price for this mod. For $250, did you get a trans fluid change also for that price?

-Mat

[GarageMahal]

I think I am going to make this my next mod... how does the new converter impact gas mileage (assuming I keep out the trottle)? Normally I would not care about the gas but...

jta

[Joe Walsh]

It won't effect highway mileage because you still have the lock-up function.
Around town I think your gas mileage will drop a little bit.
I noticed that I had to dip into the throttle more in order to get the same amount of forward motion versus the OEM (tight) convertor.
But, once you nail it she'll rev up quicker and take off like a rocket!!:banana:

[SergntMac]

$300 is average, and what I believe to be a good price for this mod. For $250, did you get a trans fluid change also for that price?-MatKeeping in mind that labor rates are not uniform across the country, it's about a 2 hour flat rate job.

Whether you pay 50, 65, 75 or 100 bucks an hour depends on local union flat rate schedules. Moreover, a wrench that knows his tranny stuff may knock it out in an hour, while the guy who does one a year may take 3. Key words here, are "shop around".

Generally speaking, you can get a better rate at a stand-alone speciality shop like AAMCO, than a L/M dealership. The "Mr. Tranny" shop in my neighborhood are two guys, one a Ford specialist, the other a G.M. and import specialist, that don't waste time. For a mod that is relatively non-technical in their books, they would be a resource for me.

A good portion of the tranny fluid needs to be replaced because it's lost inside the old converter when that comes out. I wouldn't recycle it, may as well drain the rest and start fresh?

It won't effect highway mileage because you still have the lock-up function. Around town I think your gas mileage will drop a little bit.
I noticed that I had to dip into the throttle more in order to get the same amount of forward motion versus the OEM (tight) convertor. But, once you nail it she'll rev up quicker and take off like a rocket!!:banana:All mods have a trade off, yes?

I would expect highway MPG to remain the same, maybe improve? I suggest this because cruising at highway speeds do not necessarilly invoke the improved qualities of the PI Stallion converter, but you still have the reduction in parasitic drag in your favor.

Once you learn how to tickle the throttle from a dead stop in city driving, and apply some self-control at the stop light, city MPG isn't much of a worry after all. Save your gusto for when it's going to mean something?

In the end you are correct, Joe, and a higher stall isn't a bad thing once you get used to it.

Just my .02C, carry on gents.

[Architect]

If you want to really light up the rear tires, go with a 3500 stall. You won't regret it! From dead stop, it will feel like you've added some kind of power adder, but you really didn't. That's the effect of torque multiplication from the converter. It's awesome! :D :D :D

Ok folks....who has 3000 TC's and who has 3500TC's and what's everyone opinion on each....I really think this is a modification that I want to make...
Also sounds like a mod. that the dealer might not even notice...:cool:

I don't do any racing...but I really miss the "old torque feel" that I had from say my '72 455 Trans Am ...:D
Architect

[fastblackmerc]

What TC would you recommend now if I were eventually to go with a Trilogy SC? I don't want to have to change the TC after going SC'd.

[Blackened300a]

$300 is average, and what I believe to be a good price for this mod. For $250, did you get a trans fluid change also for that price?

-Mat

I purchased my own fluid, my tranny guy supplied the filter and labor.

[MM_BKK]

What TC would you recommend now if I were eventually to go with a Trilogy SC? I don't want to have to change the TC after going SC'd.

If you're going to eventually put a supercharger on, then I would go with 3000 stall if not then I would go with 3500. You don't want your low RPM torque produced by the Trilogy roots style supercharger to get "washed out" by the higher stall. Actually, IMO with this supercharger, I don't even think you will need a high stall converter. On the other hand, if you're going with a centrifugal unit then I would go with a 3000 stall so that the engine can quickly spool up to the centrifugal sweet RPM band. :)

[SergntMac]

If you're going to eventually put a supercharger on, then I would go with 3000 stall if not then I would go with 3500. You don't want your low RPM torque produced by the Trilogy roots style supercharger to get "washed out" by the higher stall. Actually, IMO with this supercharger, I don't even think you will need a high stall converter. On the other hand, if you're going with a centrifugal unit then I would go with a 3000 stall so that the engine can quickly spool up to the centrifugal sweet RPM band. :)I agree. I have a centrifugal SC, and I have the Stallion TC in triple plate design. My original stall was 3000 and I bumped that 3500, and it produced a tremendous difference in launching the car. 1/8 mile time were lower and overall, I dropped down from the 12.7x to the 12.4x time slots from this change. Every little bit helps, my best advice to anyone is make a plan on where you want to go before buying any mod.

[HwyCruiser]

I found that the 3000 stall single plate Stallion I had installed when I was still n/a complements my centrifugal very nicely. It impresses me at the track. It's the "equalizer" for the low end I'm not supposed to have. ;)

Also, a nicely tuned 3rd gear torque converter lock - unlock schedule will give a looser converter good street manners but while it's unlocked it'll feel a little rough around the edges. Just the nature of the beast.

[GA-Marauder]

I think I am going to make this my next mod... how does the new converter impact gas mileage (assuming I keep out the trottle)? Normally I would not care about the gas but...

jta

You won't be able to, it'll be too much fun! :D :D :burnout:

[SamF]

I found that the 3000 stall single plate Stallion I had installed when I was still n/a complements my centrifugal very nicely. It impresses me at the track. It's the "equalizer" for the low end I'm not supposed to have. ;)

Also, a nicely tuned 3rd gear torque converter lock - unlock schedule will give a looser converter good street manners but while it's unlocked it'll feel a little rough around the edges. Just the nature of the beast.

Can you clarify what you mean by "nicely tuned" 3rd gear lock up schedule. I have a Lidio tune right now so no lock up unless I am in OD. I am seriously considering a 3000 TC along with the EBC brake upgrade. If I go with the TC would I be better off modifying the tune to allow lock up below OD? The car is really nice to drive now but the TC would compliment the 4.10's I think. I am also leaning toward a centrifugal S/C in the future because I will most likely self install and these kits seem to be more "bolt on/bolt off" in nature...although those Trilogy kits are really sweet too....

Sam

[HwyCruiser]

Can you clarify what you mean by "nicely tuned" 3rd gear lock up schedule. I have a Lidio tune right now so no lock up unless I am in OD. I am seriously considering a 3000 TC along with the EBC brake upgrade. If I go with the TC would I be better off modifying the tune to allow lock up below OD? The car is really nice to drive now but the TC would compliment the 4.10's I think. I am also leaning toward a centrifugal S/C in the future because I will most likely self install and these kits seem to be more "bolt on/bolt off" in nature...although those Trilogy kits are really sweet too....

Sam

Sam, I'll try to explain my comment the best I can, but it's not going to be brief. Also, this explanation is based on my experience living with the 3000 stall Stallion torque converter for over two years now, on and off the track, and looking over the shoulder of a tuner that explained how the torque converter lock/unlock parameters are defined. Take this as just "IMHO".

The torque converter lock/unlock schedules are "tuned" just like the shift schedules, but instead of defining how the transmission shifts through the gears it defines how the tc behaves in each gear. The best way to explain the tc lockup functions is to look at a lock/unlock schedule graphically. TMF posted a pic of his custom SCT lockup schedule here for reference (see 2nd graph in his post):

http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showpost.php?p=394849&postcount=10

Looking at his lockup schedule graph, the tc is set to lock and unlock at a given mph vs. throttle position. If you look at the light green line (lock 3rd), he locks his tc at speeds over 30 mph when he puts his foot into it (tp > 500, or around 3/4 throttle or more). Looking at the dark green line (unlock 3rd), his tc then unlocks in 3rd at various mph depending on the the throttle position. Near off-pedal (tp < 200), the tc stays locked until he coasts to under 35 mph. There is also a curve between near off-pedal and 3/4 pedal (200 < tp < 500) where the the tc unlocks at points between.

The lockup schedules in 1st and second are there, but you usually don't "drive" in 1st or second. You can leave the tc unlocked in 1st or second, or lock it during WOT blasts after the 1st gear torque multiplication sweet spot (low end rpms) has been run through. Different schools of thought apply.

I've run both Diablo's and DR's SCT tune in my Marauder with the 3000 stall tc. Their 3rd and 4th gear tc lock/unlocks have a lot of action going on with them (I wish I had a graph like TMF's to show). The aim is to find the sweet spot at a give throttle position vs mph where the tc locks and unlocks with the least objectionable "feel" while maximizing performance and fuel economy. It's all about give and take.

The time you spend between the curves, after the tc unlocks on deceleration and then waits again to lock during acceleration that the tc can feel "loose". I use the term loose because the rpms can vary greatly as much as 200 to 500 rpm without very much change in throttle position. This is because the engine is allowed to spin up or down more freely as compared to the "tight" factory converter. This is especially noticeable during light throttle driving, and this is exactly where some finesse is required to get it right. Change one coordinate up or down or left or right and a loose tc behaves differently - sometimes vastly differently.

I've seen graphs of the factory tc lockups and they make no sense to me at all. They must have been set up to maximize fuel efficiency, because I've driven a time or two on the factory tune with the 3000 stall tc and it's almost unbearable. With the tight factory tc, it's not that noticeable. In fact, if you leave the factory tc unlocked it's not that noticeable. Loose a little fuel efficiency, but gain what little is there in it's ability to spool up on command without waiting for the PCM to unlock it.

I've also driven on tunes that left the tc unlocked in 3rd. The very early FIT tunes did this. This is where a looser tc becomes irritating. The rpms would do weird things. I can see where some people have formed negative opinions of a looser converter because they didn't experience it with a tune that had finessed lockup schedules for the driving gear. Others have the 3000 stall Stallion and run it unlocked all the time and don't find it that objectionable. If it works for you then it works just fine.

[SergntMac]

Indeed, a fine presentation of 411, thank you Cruiser.

[SamF]

I see what you are getting at now, actually that graph really helps to put things in perspective. After reading this post and thinking about how my car behaves I think I understand the loose feeling you describe. Not so much from the cause and effect of a lock/unlock sequence but because the pedal never really feels directly connected to the engine. There are times when I am in third and 4th (below 63) when I can feel the TC spooling...sometimes I wish it wasnt, giving me a bit more "pedal/road speed" response. On the other hand I like the slight spooling at lower speeds in 1st and 2nd because it give the motor a chance to spin up and git into it so to speak :)

TC will be next I think...this car is too much fun.

On another note I came up on a really badazz Charger SRT today, black on black with chrome wheels and a sweet exhaust note...tried to get him to play (I have no illusions, he would have buried me) but he wasnt having any of it...too bad.

Thanks for taking the time to put that info up, I appreciate it.

Sam

[HwyCruiser]

Engine rpm doesn't correlate directly to mphs until the tc is locked. When left unlocked, the engine is allowed to speed up and slow down more freely (amplified at lower engine rpms) because of the hydraulic forces at work in the tc.

A good basic reference for how a torque converter works:
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/torque-converter.htm

Another drawback to leaving the torque converter unlocked is the extra fluid temperatures picked up by work that the fluid is doing versus engaging the lockup clutch. I would say my tc runs locked more often than not, but it really depending on if I'm in stop and go traffic or not. I probably should run an aux transmission cooler more for the heat we get around the midwest during the summer, but so far so good.

There's been a several good discussions on this site about the performance aspect of a looser tc, both on and off the track (dig deep via search and you'll find a lot of opinions on the subject), but I've tried to keep this one to street manners. A good lockup schedule will make a world of difference on a daily driver.

[BillyGman]

I installed several mods on my Marauder before I went with the Trilogy supercharger kit, and out of all those mods that were done before supercharging, the Stallion torque converter made the biggest difference in quartermile ET reduction. And I chose a 3,000 RPM stall speed.

I bought it directly from Precision Industries ( www.converter.com (http://www.converter.com) ) and at the time they had told me that 3,000 RPM was the highest stall speed that we should go with for street driven Marauders, and that if we went higher than that, then it would cause more heat build-up in the transmission, and shorten it's service life. But since then Precision Industries has changed their tune, and now they tell people that it's okay to go as high as 3,500 RPM with the stall speed. Go figure.

Anyway, keep in mind that although using a higher stall speed will increase the car's acceleration alittle bit, it won't do so by increasing the engine's low end torque. It does so by allowing the engine to rev higher during the launch, and therfore the engine gets closer to it's peak power range off the starting line than it does with the factory stock stall speed which is somewhere around 2,300 RPM. The Stallion converter is a good bang for the buck, but just keep your expectation realistic. You'll feel a somewhat noticeable difference, and at the dragstrip you'll see anywhere from a .50 to a .70 second reduction in your ET, but aside from a somewhat noticeable difference on the street, it isn't going to make your car feel like a whole different ride with a night or day difference. But for $700 or $800 price tag ( new) you shouldn't expect that either. So for the cost, it's a good deal.