View Full Version : Kenne Bell Update
I dont like to discuss failure, but I have to.
Started it up, ran great for a minute, then the most god awful noise which got worse and eventually led to the engine seizing up. Its not the blower, its a bearing.
Im done with going fast for now, Ill stick to my stock Marauder which always puts a smile on my face.
Thank god for the other little blue pill, Id be a madman without it.
Oh the good news is it fits under the hood with absolutely no clearance issues.
O's Fan Rich
08-25-2006, 03:50 PM
Oh, man Zack the sucks big time....
SergntMac
08-25-2006, 03:51 PM
Im done with going fast for now, Ill stick to my stock Marauder which always puts a smile on my face.Liar...
It was a Hell of a noise, folks, I've not heard a engine roll-over quite like this before, and it's a mystery to be solved. Meanwhile, my money is on Zack for having this engine out and diagnosed before sundown Sunday evening.
Any takers?
HwyCruiser
08-25-2006, 03:53 PM
That sucks. Push it aside and go back at it after you've worked out your frustrations (little blue pill?). We know you're not going to let a little thing like a seized bearing hold you back.
DEFYANT
08-25-2006, 04:05 PM
That sucks! :(
I think you'll have it ironed out and tuned real quick.
Was this a running engine before this install or completely new engine?
Joe Walsh
08-25-2006, 04:05 PM
JEEZ! That sucks....who built the forged engine??
BTW: You didn't accidentally rotate the crank pulley backwards while finishing the pulleys and accessories??
I was warned by Modular Performance that under NO circumstances should I rotate the crank pulley backwards.
Tallboy
08-25-2006, 04:51 PM
Dammit. I was as excited about this as anyone, and enjoyed the discussions we had about it here in Florida. You'll be back, and sooner than anyone thinks. In the meantime, if I can help, you've got my number.
CRUZTAKER
08-25-2006, 04:56 PM
.....(little blue pill?).
THIS ONE (http://www.seahaas.com/valium.wav) ;)
Zack:
This is truly distubing news.
Get on it.
Hotrauder
08-25-2006, 04:57 PM
Zack, goes without saying that there is a lot of disappointment and empathy here for you. I am with Mac on this however. You will be back, again; in a jiffy. You rightly had concern with the quality of the forged build. You have a project that has captured the imagination of the entire board. We are pulling for you to get right back into it. Go man. Dennis
MarauderTJA
08-25-2006, 05:00 PM
Dam Zack, that really sucks big time:( . I am confident you will have everything back running sooner than later being the motor-holic you are.
FordNut
08-25-2006, 05:11 PM
Zack,
I am so sorry to hear this. I know you're really frustrated now, but it's too late to turn back now! Take a break from it for a little while. Then Git-R-Done!
SergntMac
08-25-2006, 05:14 PM
Was this a running engine before this install or completely new engine?New.
And because it's "new", the engine build alone invites a whole lot of wondering about "why". However, there are just so many moving parts inside it, and one of them failed. This will be tracked down, trust me.
Before this engine "locked", we tried a number of troubleshooting paths to analyse the noise. But, once it locked, all that stopped.
The engined failed on it's own, during the last minutes of trouble shooting, the KB blower wasn't "on". Whatever went wrong is something in the block, something between the pistons and the crank, we'll learn more tomorrow.
BTW, the engine builder has a good rep, and he's working with Zack on this.
SergntMac
08-25-2006, 05:16 PM
In the meantime, if I can help, you've got my number.Send money?
Tallboy
08-25-2006, 05:24 PM
Send money?
I think he should come back down to Florida to take a break. :beer:
Condo's still available, and you missed one hell of a sunset tonight...:)
MI2QWK4U
08-25-2006, 05:52 PM
Hey Zack, I am sorry to hear about the setback. I hope its only temporary. Like the rest of the guys I have been wishing you the best on this new setup. Have a couple cold ones and regroup! Good luck....
bigslim
08-25-2006, 06:24 PM
Zack, everyone knows that this will only set you back for a short time. You won't let a thing like this keep you from achieving the goal which you had set for yourself. Take a break and get back to it. We are all waiting to see the final project.
KillJoy
08-25-2006, 06:25 PM
Dude....what the hell are you thinking? Just giving up? HA! That's funny!
I think Mac is being overly generous in a Sunday evening time frame. More like mid day Saturday! **** happens....always has, always will. Between the two of you, you'll get it figured out.
If it helps, you have my number. Call me and I can make fun of you for a while :D
KillJoy
Smokie
08-25-2006, 06:30 PM
I understand your frustration, do what I do...walk away. Do something you enjoy, sleep on it.
You have that itch to know what makes things tick. Never let an inanimate object kick your ass...you will figure it out.
Bigdogjim
08-25-2006, 06:49 PM
Im done with going fast for now, Ill stick to my stock Marauder which always puts a smile on my face.
I agree, works for me:)
Big House
08-25-2006, 07:07 PM
Ease up on the throttle, coast a little, and hammer the beyouch again...You will be back before you know it.
The motor is locked up tight.
Cant even move it with a breaker bar.
It locked up when the oil pressure gauge read 80psi.
Go figure.
FordNut
08-25-2006, 07:36 PM
The motor is locked up tight.
Cant even move it with a breaker bar.
That makes it a b*tch to pull the engine since you can't get to the torque converter nuts. May have to pull the engine and tranny together this time.
cyclone03
08-25-2006, 08:09 PM
The motor is locked up tight.
Cant even move it with a breaker bar.
It locked up when the oil pressure gauge read 80psi.
Go figure.
I guess it's safe to assume your not going to fire back at us a big "just kidding guys this thing screams..."?
I'm sorry to hear about that, it really bites. Could it have been a head gasket leak into one of the cylinders? That would make a heck of a racket before hydrolocking.
On a brighter note:
At least it locked up now and not a month from now when everything was complete!
Best luck and vengeance,
J
MM_BKK
08-26-2006, 03:32 AM
That makes it a b*tch to pull the engine since you can't get to the torque converter nuts. May have to pull the engine and tranny together this time.
You can pull just the engine with the torque converter attached to the flexplate. Then just unbolt the torque converter from the flexplate once the engine is out of the car. :)
FordNut
08-26-2006, 04:32 AM
You can pull just the engine with the torque converter attached to the flexplate. Then just unbolt the torque converter from the flexplate once the engine is out of the car. :)
Only if you can slide the engine far enough forward to get the torque converter out of the tranny. And even with it out of the car it's a real pain to get to the tq converter bolts that are at the top of the flexplate. The last blown MM engine I disassembled had thrown rods and it could only be turned over about 1/2 turn with a breaker bar. I got it disassembled but it's a PITA even out of the car.
TooManyFords
08-26-2006, 06:35 AM
Zack, if you want I can take a couple days off and come over and help. Let me know.
John
SergntMac
08-26-2006, 01:53 PM
Tried it again this morning, the rotating mass is locked, so, this engine pull will be a chore. Not being able to turn the rotating mass to get at the torque converter bolts will be a headache.
There's a little bit of give in the frame for pulling the engine forward, but not enough to pull the engine with the tranny attached. So, the tranny has to come out anyway, and the converter will come off before the pull. After that, business as usual.
We're still speculating on the cause and origin, but getting it nailed down. I know this is what's bumming Zack out right now, the extra work 'cause the engine is locked.
I know Zack appreciates the input, advice and support y'all have shown here, and he's still kind of bummed out by all this. On his behalf, thank you all.
junior
08-26-2006, 02:00 PM
Could it be a dropped valve or something like that? Would be nice if you could just tear down the top end for now.
Glenn
08-26-2006, 02:17 PM
Hard to believe it is a crank, bearing or rod gone bad. I am certainly no expert, but I would bet on a dropped valve. The damage may not be that extensive. Certainly a ruined piston. Pull the valve covers. Do the driver's side first you may get lucky and have it on that side. My next guess would be water in the cylinders as mentioned previously.
A real bummer.
Glenn
SergntMac
08-26-2006, 03:10 PM
Could it be a dropped valve or something like that? Would be nice if you could just tear down the top end for now.The sound we heard has that quality, that of a combusting fuel charge with an open valve. This has been ruled out on the driver's side bank, all valve springs, retainers, lash adjusters, rockers, cams, cam chain tension ect. have been eye-balled and tested, they're good as we see them from up top. We didn't get to the passenger side before it locked.
This sound is also why a blown head gasket has not been ruled out. Side by side cylinders in the firing order with a blown gasket in between would sound that way to me, Zack dissents.
Can't tear down the heads with the engine in the car because of ARP head studs, and the process of removing the ARP studs is as labor intense and time consuming as pulling the tranny first.
Good thoughts, Junior, thanks.
SergntMac
08-26-2006, 03:35 PM
Hard to believe it is a crank, bearing or rod gone bad. I am certainly no expert, but I would bet on a dropped valve. The damage may not be that extensive. Certainly a ruined piston. Pull the valve covers. Do the driver's side first you may get lucky and have it on that side. My next guess would be water in the cylinders as mentioned previously.This is where it lies right now, Glenn, and stays until we learn more with the engine out of the car.
It's now surely something in the rotating mass, between the top of the piston and the bottom of the crank, that finally gave up. So, why it gave up is another story not yet revealed.
We checked all fluid levels, no loss, or, cross-contamination observed at this time. Hydro-locking isn't on the list of possibles right now. Our problem will be measuring, and excluding the actual end-result damage from the origin of the failure, the "noise".
Once everything degrades to the point of failure, you are working backwards to learn why. The true definition of "autopsy", and why reports of engine failure among us at large intrigue me the most. Most often, it's related here that "my engine broke", but without more about how, or, why.
Posting details of the estimated end-damage is one thing, the actual cause is usually quite another origin. For example, we may find oil pump gears trashed, but that is more likely the end-result of a crankshaft balance gone haywire after something else failed and threw it all out of balance, than not.
This engine never went above 1000 RPMs before it went south, and a lot of 411 remains to be sought out, examined and shared. The only thing missing right now, is yellow crime scene tape, and a few chalk lines...
RCSignals
08-26-2006, 11:25 PM
a bearing(s) installed without aligning oil passages?
ROADWARRIORSVT
08-26-2006, 11:40 PM
Zack,
I know it doesn't help much, but many have been where you're at, myself included. It's not weather you failed or suceeded, but how you deal with it. Take a few days off, then start turning wrenches on that biotch again! If having a KB Marauder were that easy, we'd all have one !! Keep your chin up brother!:beer:
Glenn
08-27-2006, 09:26 AM
Mac:
Thanks for the information. We are all waiting to hear about the details of this terrible failure - very unusual.
Glenn
A rod bearing cap was not tightened.
Bolt and bearing in the bottom of the pan.
Rod cap lodged between the crank and the block.
Put a hole in the iron block. Shortblock is history.
Heads are good. No problems getting the engine out with the torque converter attached.
Glenn
08-27-2006, 12:34 PM
Unbelievable oversight!! Even someone with my limited engine building experience knows you always go over rod and crank bearing caps several times in stages to insure correct torque. Someone got a cell phone call in the middle of torqueing the bearing caps or some other interruption.
Zack: I assume the engine builder will make good on everything???
Good Luck,
Glenn
O's Fan Rich
08-27-2006, 02:39 PM
Unbelievable oversight!! Even someone with my limited engine building experience knows you always go over rod and crank bearing caps several times in stages to insure correct torque. Someone got a cell phone call in the middle of torqueing the bearing caps or some other interruption.
Zack: I assume the engine builder will make good on everything???
Good Luck,
Glenn
My thoughts too, Glenn.
DEFYANT
08-27-2006, 05:18 PM
That sucks! :(
I think you'll have it ironed out and tuned real quick.
Was this a running engine before this install or completely new engine?
Here I go quoting myself again :confused:
FordNut
08-27-2006, 05:22 PM
A real shame in all of this is that the oil pan was off at least a couple of times, when the aftermarket pan wouldn't fit and had to be swapped. Too bad the bolts didn't just fall out at that time! Maybe coulda fixed it before damage occurred if it had been noticed.
Bradley G
08-29-2006, 07:02 AM
I hope the guy makes good on his oversight too, Zack!
I can totally relate, to a major acedemic mistake.
Doesn't feel good at all!:shake:
gonzo50
09-03-2006, 01:39 PM
A rod bearing cap was not tightened.
Bolt and bearing in the bottom of the pan.
Rod cap lodged between the crank and the block.
Put a hole in the iron block. Shortblock is history.
Heads are good. No problems getting the engine out with the torque converter attached.
Unquestionably, the most important fasteners in any engine are the connecting rod bolts because they hold the key to the entire rotating assembly.
A broken bolt will lead to catastrophic engine failure. Using the correct rod bolt with sufficient strength to withstand the strains placed upon it is critical. It is absolutely imperative that the bolts be properly tightened. The preferred method to monitor the correct amount of tension is by using a stretch gauge.
This measures the actual stretch in the bolt and is far more accurate than just using a torque wrench.
This week's ARP.TECH TIP from Two Guys Garage on Speed channel.:beatnik:
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