Control Arms

[Mike M]

What happened to the control arm shootout?????

[KillJoy]

The person who was doing it was dragging their feet. So....it was kinda cancelled. :(

KillJoy

[Shora]

Time is something that many of us do not have enough of. I hope that it is not too late to get tests and results. If it were up to me I would prefer to see it performed with a 100% bone stock MM anyway. We all have different mods on our MM and the results from a Stock MM would give the results that I personally will respect the most. Now, can we get someone to stand up and take the lead in this project?

I just hope that ALL control arms prove to be better than stock and that the new test will remain civil, unbiased, and may I dare say, FUN.

[MM2004]

Time is something that many of us do not have enough of. I hope that it is not too late to get tests and results. If it were up to me I would prefer to see it performed with a 100% bone stock MM anyway. We all have different mods on our MM and the results from a Stock MM would give the results that I personally will respect the most. Now, can we get someone to stand up and take the lead in this project?

I just hope that ALL control arms prove to be better than stock and that the new test will remain civil, unbiased, and may I dare say, FUN.

They are MUCH better than stock. :D

Mike.

[SergntMac]

I just hope that ALL control arms prove to be better than stock and that the new test will remain civil, unbiased, and may I dare say, FUN.I didn't think there was any question about durability or improvement at all. Whether Metco, or, Zack and Mac, both designs deliver substantial improvement over OEM components. But, there are still a few choices to make between the two designs, such as aluminum vs. powdercoated steel, and rubber vs. poly-whatever bushings.

There are over 80 sets of Z&M control arms in the field and without one complaint from buyers. Each set was built to order, and all orders have been filled within the promised "30 days". Built to order means that we took the group buy approach and built each set as it was ordered in groups of ten.

As you may expect, market availability and timing is problematic, thus the Z&M and Metco designs have not spent a lot of time sharing the same availability time frame side-by-side. In our last production run, we had a time slot open and a set of Z&M arms available for independent testing, but the Metco sample(s) needed to come from a present owner.

We found one (he stepped up to the plate) and there was a small window of opportunity open, but it came to expire before any testing was completed. Moreover, being a present owner of the Metco product, invites some native testing bias, i.e. a predisposition towards favoring a decision already made, but we can work with that.

As I post this, I cannot say we have have a set available for testing, I'll have to check stock. But, if we do, we would ask that the testing be accomplished in a reasonable period of time, because such a set is waiting for delivery to a new owner. If anyone wants to volunteer, I'll discuss it with Zack, but remember that you must already own the Metco arms now because there is no sample for testing, and be willing to complete multiple installs and complete all possible tests.

Fair and above board evaluation includes quarter mile race track performance, so, you must be willing and able to qualify that by conducting a few 1320 passes, and absorb the expense of that phase of testing, completed within a reasonable time frame.

If there is a set left, it's prolly promised to a customer who needed time to get his cash together, and we would need his permission to release the set for testing. Perhaps we can offer a discount for this cooperation. If not, this testing will have to wait for the next GB run, and (now I hope y'all understand) a lot of other things to fall into place.

Anyone willing to get involved, please contact me at SergntMac@aol.com, or, Zack at ZackMcGrath@hotmail.com. Meanwhile, Zack and I welcome any public analysis/evaluation of our product.

Maybe next time?

[glassman99]

What about doing the testing at Marauderville? I have the Z&M units and am totally satisfied. I am open to doing the testing at MV if someone does the wrench.

[Rider90]

What can I say? I work too much? I grab up all the over time I can? You're damn straight. Step up and do it killjoy, or, quit yer' b!tchin'

Shora hit it head on in the first sentence.

[94_302]

What about doing the testing at Marauderville? I have the Z&M units and am totally satisfied. I am open to doing the testing at MV if someone does the wrench.

I was just thinking this. I am sure at Marauderville there will be Metco, Z&M, and PHP control arms on various vehicles. I think that would be the easiest time to test this out. I'm also sure people would get a kick out of seeing how fast each one could be installed. :)

[SergntMac]

I was just thinking this. I am sure at Marauderville there will be Metco, Z&M, and PHP control arms on various vehicles. I think that would be the easiest time to test this out. I'm also sure people would get a kick out of seeing how fast each one could be installed. :)Gents...Go for it! All other things equal, let's watch the 60 foot and 330 foot times. Let the games begin!
What can I say? I work too much? I grab up all the over time I can? You're damn straight. Step up and do it killjoy, or, quit yer' b!tchin' Shora hit it head on in the first sentence.I didn't out you on this project, Jason, you did.

Please remember that time constraints and product availability concerns populate both sides of the vendor/consumer fence?

You had our sample control arm set for two months. Moreover, you unwillingness to vist a timed 1320 track didn't make anything easier on us. Without some form of timed performance driving, to what end were you working? A G-Force meter? C'mon...

Nevermind, it's all history now anyway...

[KillJoy]

What can I say? I work too much? I grab up all the over time I can? You're damn straight. Step up and do it killjoy, or, quit yer' b!tchin'

Shora hit it head on in the first sentence.

I ain't b!tchin'. I do not really even care. I have the PHP's :D

KillJoy

[stryker]

:cool: one of the heavy mods to my "M.P.I"will be Metco control arms !je je je je jeeee!


STRYKER.

[SergntMac]

:cool: one of the heavy mods to my "M.P.I"will be Metco control arms !je je je je jeeee!


STRYKER.What ever...

[glassman99]

I'll be the mule al long as someone wrench's at MV.

[Rider90]

I don't feel the need to explain myself to anyone here. No disrespect, but no one here is my "Daddy" and I don't need to answer to anyone's rebuttal. I did what I did, now, who is next to step up to the plate? I obviously do not have the time between my 55-70 hour weeks working at my job, atleast one detailed vehicle per week, sometimes two, and the sleep my body requires. If only the days were longer could I get as much done as I wanted to.

If anyone thinks I did not complete the Control Arm test for any other reason, go ahead and think what you want. If anyone thinks I would have been biased because I already purchased one brand because the other top contending brand was not currently in production, go ahead and think I would be biased. If I was biased over one brand I would stand on my soap box with my stubborn arms crossed, and not offer to get a free glimpse as to what these rubber-bushing tubular control arms were like, offering to share my discoveries along the way. If I liked the M&Z Control Arms I could turn my Metcos around for a good deal, and not lose too much money. If you're looking for a biased opinion from me you'll have to see me spend much more than $400.00, heck, even my whole car. I'll jump in an SRT-8 Charger and tell you what I think. Who am I really lying to, me or you? if I was biased over some silly control arms or a vehicle in itself.

Well I went ahead and explained myself anyway. Think what you want and continue telling yourself that. For the future, I'll be tuned into the test results so I can point my money, if I have not already, in the right direction.

[Power Surge]

I am not familiar with any control arms other than the Metcos (I am a Metco dealer). Does anyone else make adjustable arms, or are they all just solid replacements?

[BK_GrandMarquis]

I am not familiar with any control arms other than the Metcos (I am a Metco dealer). Does anyone else make adjustable arms, or are they all just solid replacements?

No adjustable ones. The Metco's are solid and the Zack & Mac are hollow. I don't know what the PHPs look like.

[03SILVERSTREAK]

No adjustable ones. The Metco's are solid Aluminum and the Zack & Mac are Cold Rolled Steel. I don't know what the PHPs look like.

I have the Z & M , no questions the best move.

[MM2004]

I have the Z & M , no questions the best move.

What ^^^ he ^^^ said!

:beer:

Mike.

[SergntMac]

I don't feel the need to explain myself to anyone here. No disrespect, but no one here is my "Daddy" and I don't need to answer to anyone's rebuttal. I did what I did, now, who is next to step up to the plate? I obviously do not have the time between my 55-70 hour weeks working at my job, atleast one detailed vehicle per week, sometimes two, and the sleep my body requires. If only the days were longer could I get as much done as I wanted to.

If anyone thinks I did not complete the Control Arm test for any other reason, go ahead and think what you want. If anyone thinks I would have been biased because I already purchased one brand because the other top contending brand was not currently in production, go ahead and think I would be biased. If I was biased over one brand I would stand on my soap box with my stubborn arms crossed, and not offer to get a free glimpse as to what these rubber-bushing tubular control arms were like, offering to share my discoveries along the way. If I liked the M&Z Control Arms I could turn my Metcos around for a good deal, and not lose too much money. If you're looking for a biased opinion from me you'll have to see me spend much more than $400.00, heck, even my whole car. I'll jump in an SRT-8 Charger and tell you what I think. Who am I really lying to, me or you? if I was biased over some silly control arms or a vehicle in itself.

Well I went ahead and explained myself anyway. Think what you want and continue telling yourself that. For the future, I'll be tuned into the test results so I can point my money, if I have not already, in the right direction.Do not season fact with drama, no one here has called you any names, not even remotely close to that. Moreover, bias (at large) is a natural human emotion we all possess, and bias is not usually fatal to good judgement and fair decision. Like I said, it can be worked with.

If anything, I imagine you had too much on your plate at the time, happens to all of us one time or another. Now that you have opened a promising business, keep in mind that the clock and calendar are not flexible.
No adjustable ones. The Metco's are solid and the Zack & Mac are hollow. I don't know what the PHPs look like.Quick overview...

The PHP and Metco control arms appear very similar. They are CNC cut from solid billet aliminum and employ poly-something (I honestly don't know) bushngs to mount. This style of bushings provides a stiff "no give" connection between the frame and the rear end housing. Characteristic of poly-? bushings at large is that they dry out and squeek (as they do with the Addco sway bars). Thus, both control arm designs come with Zerk fittings for occassional lubrication.

The PHP arms are reinforced with strap steel around the bushing mounts, the Metcos are not reinforced. Metco also offers a matching Watts link, and the kit is quite attractive.

The Zack and Mac control arms are .125 wall medium rolled steel. They are three precision cut sections of steel tubing welded together and sized correctly to employ the OEM steel core rubber bushing. They will not require any lubrication, and provide a certain "give" where necessary to prevent stressing the frame and housing mounts, and wheel hop. The arms are offered in black powdercoating and are intended to be discreet, blend in with the suspension. I've had Ford engineers look over my Marauder, and they didn't see anything.

If "hollow" is how you express "tubular", I suppose you're not wrong, but tubular is a design common among suspension mods, just take a peek at the bulk of suspension products offered for Mustangs. Whether it be a race car chassis, a roll cage, or, a set of control arms, "hollow" is the norm and a proven technology.

All of the products mentioned here are well made, priced competively, and offer remarkable improvement in control over the OEM parts on a Marauder. None are adjustable.

Help you any?

[Bradley G]

I will try and make another set of OEM boxed (two welded together) for testing.
Any doners can PM me for my adress.

The two sets I made, are not comming off either of the Panthers I installed them on.
If by some miracle, I can go to MVIV, I will partisipate in any testing.

A few things that appealed to me when I considered this upgrade.

Availibility, I worked for a Ford dealership and the parts were available in a few days.
Costs, I have so many things, I want to do to this car, thanks to you guys!
And some of my pals donated and traded, take off parts.(thanks Shakes_26, DA'Law, Hotrauder)I was able to justify the expense.

Size, Matters! The OEM Boxed , look to be the strongest of the offerings.

OEM specs,

The Pinion angle, I read old threads that some of the early M+Z arms were offered 1/4" shorter.
There was a lot of discussion regarding the M+Z offering "shorter arms had some advantage for launch"
Others claimed that this was not any advantage, and that it may be more "Harm than good"
I did not care to change the geometry of the suspension.
I am not sure the short arms are availible anymore.


If you want new bushings with M+Zs' that is an additional cost.
Refering to any of the choices as "real" or not, is a bit narrow.
Especially since none of the control arms, have been compared in any scientific or real world testing.
And, the M&Z are not available unless you find several other(s) to purchace them with you.
(Unless you find someone, willing to sell thiers.)
One thing I did not care for with the Metcos", was the grease fittings.
and the extra maintenence. required to clean/regrease them after a period of time.
Metco, IMO they are the nicest looking, except when they require cleaning from the grease.(except black may hide the seepage from the bushing)
Of course, mine squeek a little, so again "a trade off" unless I'm able to correct it.
And lastly, PHP arms, I am not sure about the status, maybe Dennis Reinhart sells them.
I don't see them on Pauls' High Performance site.
Let the games begin! :coolman:

[Power Surge]

Ok thanks. I guess I'll just have to make my own control arms, with adjustability. Or maybe a set of the Z&Ms could be cut, and threaded with adjustable ends.

[Bradley G]

Please post your project, Sal.
Ok thanks. I guess I'll just have to make my own control arms, with adjustability. Or maybe a set of the Z&Ms could be cut, and threaded with adjustable ends.

[DEFYANT]

Ok thanks. I guess I'll just have to make my own control arms, with adjustability. Or maybe a set of the Z&Ms could be cut, and threaded with adjustable ends.


Forgive me, but... why? Is there something to be gained by adjusting the control arms on this car?

:confused:

[94_302]

The PHP and Metco control arms appear very similar. They are CNC cut from solid billet aliminum and employ poly-something (I honestly don't know) bushngs to mount. This style of bushings provides a stiff "no give" connection between the frame and the rear end housing. Characteristic of poly-? bushings at large is that they dry out and squeek (as they do with the Addco sway bars). Thus, both control arm designs come with Zerk fittings for occassional lubrication.

The PHP arms are reinforced with strap steel around the bushing mounts, the Metcos are not reinforced. Metco also offers a matching Watts link, and the kit is quite attractive.



I do believe the PHP are made of steel and not aluminum. My set is magnetic along the whole piece, not just around the bushing mounts.

[SergntMac]

Ok thanks. I guess I'll just have to make my own control arms, with adjustability. Or maybe a set of the Z&Ms could be cut, and threaded with adjustable ends.The Z&M control arms were designed and are produced by a professional race car chassis builder, and they were designed specifically for a Marauder. I don't know it they are adaptable to a 2000 CV/PI suspension system, 'cause I don't know enough about pre-'03 Panther frame cars.

You're welcome to try, but if I were you, I would start fresh. Besides, there's a whole new world of CV owners looking for options, and with professional research and development, you could do well.

Bradley...Mucho thanks for the live demonstration of natural bias at play.

When I hear someone something "looks stronger", dedicated body builders come to my mind. Too often, the muscle bound are not as strong as they appear.

Durability and strength is a matter of design and construction material, and every design and all materials have limits. From cardboard to forged steel, everything has a failure point. What specific aluminum Paul and Metco use in their builds, I don't know. But, Paul felt it necessary to reinforce his aluminum with steel.

I have bent a single OEM control arm with my hands, exactly how two of them welded together could exceed the inherent strength of .125 wall mild steel, or, two inch thick billet aluminum, escapes me. Peek here?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tensile_strength

[SergntMac]

I do believe the PHP are made of steel and not aluminum. My set is magnetic along the whole piece, not just around the bushing mounts.The last set I saw were aluminum, strapped as described and powder coated red. I was in Paul's shop, and that was a while back now. If you have solid steel, gawd they have to be heavy. Nonetheless, I stand corrected, thank you.

[Power Surge]

Forgive me, but... why? Is there something to be gained by adjusting the control arms on this car?

:confused:

Pinion angle. If you like traction, you need proper pinion angle. If you just like doing smokey burnouts, then don't even worry about it, but if you want hook, then you need the proper suspension setup. I can tell you that on my car, I actually have POSITIVE pinion angle at rest, which is not only bad for traction, but potentially damaging to the driveline as well. If I plan to hook at all with this car's power, I need to be able to adjust my pinion angle to about -4.

[94_302]

The last set I saw were aluminum, strapped as described and powder coated red. I was in Paul's shop, and that was a while back now. If you have solid steel, gawd they have to be heavy. Nonetheless, I stand corrected, thank you.

Yeah then they must have two types out there. Mine are powder coated black and pretty heavy, but I don't mind because I prefer steel over aluminum when it comes to control arms. I wonder how many sets of the red ones are out there and if there is a significant difference in performance.

I'll be glad to help in installing the control arms on a test vehicle at Marauderville. But I won't be at the track until 2 or so, I have morning classes that I can't miss and it's a 2 hour drive from Tally to Gville.

[MM2004]

Pinion angle. If you like traction, you need proper pinion angle. If you just like doing smokey burnouts, then don't even worry about it, but if you want hook, then you need the proper suspension setup. I can tell you that on my car, I actually have POSITIVE pinion angle at rest, which is not only bad for traction, but potentially damaging to the driveline as well. If I plan to hook at all with this car's power, I need to be able to adjust my pinion angle to about -4.

...and make sure you check your driveline on a regular and frequent schedule.

Higher positive or negative angles can lead to premature joint failure.

IIRC, higher or lower than +3/-3 deg. has in many cases warranted a double-cardan application.

Just my .02.

Mike.

[MM03MOK]

Size, Matters! The OEM Boxed , look to be the strongest of the offerings.

OEM specs,

The Pinion angle, I read old threads that some of the early M+Z arms were offered 1/4" shorter.
There was a lot of discussion regarding the M+Z offering "shorter arms had some advantage for launch"
Others claimed that this was not any advantage, and that it may be more "Harm than good"
I did not care to change the geometry of the suspension.
I am not sure the short arms are availible anymore.

Looks can be deceiving, Bradley.

Let me refresh your memory of reading old threads.



Every RWD car has pinion angle, and it works the same way on all RWD designs. Our lower control arms are 1/8" longer than the OEM control arms which changes the OEM pinion angle reacting to WOT. How much this 1/8" extension changes the pinion angle has not been calculated. We did not measure the OEM pinion angle before the install, nor will we measure it now. Besides, it would have been an innacurate measurement anyway, my LCAs are already stretching out of spec.


Also, I could not find any references pointing to the statement that the ZMCAs may be more "harm than good."

Doesn't matter, now, Bradley. There was and is nothing wrong with either the first or second runs of the ZMCAs.

Kudos to you for being innovative. Stick to your facts and focus on your product rather than casting misleading doubt on others'.


Pinion angle. If you like traction, you need proper pinion angle. If you just like doing smokey burnouts, then don't even worry about it, but if you want hook, then you need the proper suspension setup. I can tell you that on my car, I actually have POSITIVE pinion angle at rest, which is not only bad for traction, but potentially damaging to the driveline as well. If I plan to hook at all with this car's power, I need to be able to adjust my pinion angle to about -4.Yep. You get it. The first run of the ZMCAs were -3, specifically designed for the Marauder by Mike Lopez, a profession race car chasis builder.

[KillJoy]

both control arm designs come with Zerk fittings for occassional lubrication.

My PHP's DO NOT have grease fittings :(

KillJoy

PS - here is a pic for whoever was wanting to know what the PHP's look like:

http://reinhartautomotive.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=12345&Product_Code=MM-PHPCA&Category_Code=9

[SergntMac]

My PHP's DO NOT have grease fittings :(

KillJoyCorrected again...Black too!

Now I'm wondering what in Hell Paul showed me? First run perhaps?

Oh well...

[SergntMac]

What happened to the control arm shootout?????Kinda looks like we're having it right here.

One simple question, go figure...

[KillJoy]

Now I'm wondering what in Hell Paul showed me? First run perhaps?

I kinda wish the PHP's had them. It would make lubrication MUCH easier down the road. So far, I have about 3K on them, and no squeaking. Hopefully it will continue :D

KillJoy

[Bradley G]

Corrected, sorry for the misinformation about the M&Z arms."longer is/was better":D
So far we have not seen anything(testing) that concludes; better, stonger, faster, for any of the offerings.
Except that Mac, can bend the OEM arms with his hands.:rolleyes:
If in fact if stronger= faster or better?
If M+Zs' are designed by a racing chassis builder, how come the design does not include an adjustment for pinon angle?

What control arms did Kenny Brown offer with all the suspension upgrades?
Who is going to step up and test?
What is our goal here?

[BK_GrandMarquis]

What control arms did Kenny Brown offer with all the suspension upgrades?


I don't believe Kenny Brown had upgraded control arms.

He used lowering springs, Bilstein shocks, sway bars and a welded in frame support to improve the handling.

[Power Surge]

I know I don't know the original "story" with this subject, but I don't see the point of a "control arm shootout" to see which ones are "best". It seems that all three that have been discussed here are pretty much equally better than OEM. Without adjustability, all you have left for "improvement" is stiffness and better bushing designs, and all three seem to offer that.

[SergntMac]

I don't believe Kenny Brown had upgraded control arms.

He used lowering springs, Bilstein shocks, sway bars and a welded in frame support to improve the handling.Thanks, but you are slightly off the mark here.

I owned the "#1x" Marauder S, the first (and experimental) Marauder built by Kenny Brown.

I cannot reflect on what he offered for other Panther frame cars, and I don't know their requirements, or, specs. The "Lounge Lizzard" CV of Car and Driver fame is quite another car from the Marauder S design.

However, the Marauder S did not get any shock upgrades over the OEM. Fronts springs were cut one full coil from the top, not replaced with aftermarket. The OEM sway bar bushings were upgraded to poly-something bushings, there were no aftermarket sway bar upgrades at that time. The rear air suspension was lowered via the OEM sensor, and the rear bump stops modified accordingly. A lower and fatter tire profile from Pirelli was installed, and nothing was welded anywhere. That's it, nothing more on the #1x as it went to production.

There were other experiments, such as with exhaust systems (3 sets of Hooker headers, pipe diameter, "X" vs. "H", and so on), and yes, Kenny came to sign off on the Zack and Mac control arms in late '04, as an option to future buyers. Kenny disassembled the construction, and tested the performance himself. As an option, it never came to be, and for other reasons. Can't help that.

Even "bone stock" Marauder owners have no need for any "frame connectors", we have a full "hydroformed" frame on the Marauder, which was new to the Panther line from the '03 model year.

Sorry about correcting you, but that was then, this is now. No harm, no foul.

[Bradley G]

Sal, the Z+M arms do not necessarily come with new bushings,If you want bushings included, you pay those additional costs.
As Far as "Better bushings" goes.
Are the stiffer "Poly" bushings better ? :confused:
The M+Z offering uses the same bushings as the stock control arms.

The "shootout" was to move from "SEEMS", to some real world results .

You say to Hook well with your torque Monster, you need a -4* pinon angle?
Looks like the closest ready made choice for you, is the longer M+Z arms.
What is the benefit for having the adjustment?
Is it as simple as trial and results?
What trade-offs besides driveline stress, would one experience with this different pinon angle?

I know I don't know the original "story" with this subject, but I don't see the point of a "control arm shootout" to see which ones are "best". It seems that all three that have been discussed here are pretty much equally better than OEM. Without adjustability, all you have left for "improvement" is stiffness and better bushing designs, and all three seem to offer that.

[SergntMac]

Either you understand suspension on a heavy car, or, you do not.
I know I don't know the original "story" with this subject, but I don't see the point of a "control arm shootout" to see which ones are "best". It seems that all three that have been discussed here are pretty much equally better than OEM. Without adjustability, all you have left for "improvement" is stiffness and better bushing designs, and all three seem to offer that.You get it, and I guess that's all we need to tune up on a Marauder, eh?

Zack and I push innovation forward, our position on stock pinion angle and how to improve it left a lot of panties in a bunch, guess that goes with the territory, and who know what's going on, and who does not.

Nonetheless, we do see a significant improvement in launching the Marauder at the race track, and overall "spirited" driving from our simple non-pinion modified upgrade, so, I suppose it's still a good mod.

Like I said earlier, "best you start from scratch", but now you are aware of the BS that innovation attracts among us. We're mostly an "older" crew, and some folks lose the ability to think out of the box. Likewise, some youngins'

As a Kenne Bell supercharged 2000 CV owner from another site, this should not be new ground for you. Hang in here, it gets better.

[Bradley G]

Thanks BK, where was the added frame supports?
I don't believe Kenny Brown had upgraded control arms.

He used lowering springs, Bilstein shocks, sway bars and a welded in frame support to improve the handling.

[Bradley G]

You "got" everything on the first try?

Where is the "significant improvement" launching over stock? Any thing to substantiate other than
Seat of the pants?
Got a set, for real word testing?
I'll take a set to the track and compare them to the inferior one(s) I made.

K? :)

Either you understand suspension on a heavy car, or, you do not.You get it, and I guess that's all we need to tune up on a Marauder, eh?

Zack and I push innovation forward, our position on stock pinion angle and how to improve it left a lot of panties in a bunch, guess that goes with the territory, and who know what's going on, and who does not.

Nonetheless, we do see a significant improvement in launching the Marauder at the race track, and overall "spirited" driving from our simple non-pinion modified upgrade, so, I suppose it's still a good mod.

Like I said earlier, "best you start from scratch", but now you are aware of the BS that innovation attracts among us. We're mostly an "older" crew, and some folks lose the ability to think out of the box. Likewise, some youngins'

As a Kenne Bell supercharged 2000 CV owner from another site, this should not be new ground for you. Hang in here, it gets better.

[Power Surge]

Sal, the Z+M arms do not necessarily come with new bushings,If you want bushings included, you pay those additional costs.
As Far as "Better bushings" goes.
Are the stiffer "Poly" bushings better ? :confused:
The M+Z offering uses the same bushings as the stock control arms.

The "shootout" was to move from "SEEMS", to some real world results .

You say to Hook well with your torque Monster, you need a -4* pinon angle?
Looks like the closest ready made choice for you, is the longer M+Z arms.
What is the benefit for having the adjustment?
Is it as simple as trial and results?
What trade-offs besides driveline stress, would one experience with this different pinon angle?

There's two main reasons for upgrading a suspension like ours. One reason is to stop deflection (angles changing from intended desgin, due to parts moving, flexing, etc). The second reason is to add adjustability to "fine tune" the way the car performs.

Our factory rear control arms are just stamped steel sheets, bent like a ruffles potato chip, for some strength. They serve the purpose, but leave a lot on the table for performance. Then again, these cars weren't intended for the performance that aftermarket controls arms are needed for :).

When you start adding things like extra hp, sticky tires and such, you are now putting a lot more stress on these parts. The result is they flex and move. The Watts Link helps the side to side motion, so you really don't "feel" the deflection like you would on a stock Mustang 4 link setup.

As for adjustability, that's another thing. For drag racing, you never want to go positive on the pinion angle. What that does is make the driveshaft point up, and then what happens is the "spring" action of the suspension causes it to whip back negative, in which that motion unloads the tire. Obviously not too many MM and CV owners are racing these cars with 600hp and slicks, so it's not THAT big a deal. But for me, I want ET from my car, so I need to address it.


Either you understand suspension on a heavy car, or, you do not.You get it, and I guess that's all we need to tune up on a Marauder, eh?

Zack and I push innovation forward, our position on stock pinion angle and how to improve it left a lot of panties in a bunch, guess that goes with the territory, and who know what's going on, and who does not.

Nonetheless, we do see a significant improvement in launching the Marauder at the race track, and overall "spirited" driving from our simple non-pinion modified upgrade, so, I suppose it's still a good mod.

Like I said earlier, "best you start from scratch", but now you are aware of the BS that innovation attracts among us. We're mostly an "older" crew, and some folks lose the ability to think out of the box. Likewise, some youngins'

As a Kenne Bell supercharged 2000 CV owner from another site, this should not be new ground for you. Hang in here, it gets better.

I am definitley not knocking your product. The last thing I want to do is come here as some newbie clashing with the veteran members. But I will speak my mind on technical issues, after all, Ford performance what I do for a living.

I am sure you guys decided on no adjustability, the take the complexity out of the product for the end user. A stiffer arm in itself I am sure makes a world of handling and feel difference on these cars. As I stated above, I would think the percentage of CV and MM owners "needing" pinion angle adjustment is low.

I can't say that I agree with using stock bushings though, and they have a lot of deflection, but that's my opinion. I would guess that you guys decided to use them over urethane to maintain stock-like NVH levels, as opposed to the alternative which would perform better, but probably get many more complaints on noise and sqeaking.

So now, the big question is... do you still make them, and if so how much and any pics?

[SergntMac]

Corrected, sorry for the misinformation about the M&Z arms."longer is/was better"Forgiven, don't mention it again.
So far we have not seen anything(testing) that concludes; better, stonger, faster, for any of the offerings.Agreed.

Thought I explained this?

Over 80 sets in the field, some for over two years, without any complaint of failure, or, disappointment. Surely. this means something in value, yes? Perhaps we should ask again? Ummm...Okay. I'll give ya this, Bradley...

ATTENTION! ANYONE WHO OWNS ZACK AND MAC REAR CONTROL ARMS FOR THE '03/'04 MARAUDER, WHO ARE NOT FULLY SATISFIED WITH YOUR PURCHASE, PLEASE SPEAK UP?

How did I do, Bradley? Let's see what follows this shout-out?

BTW, how many set(s) of your style of "boxed" OEM control arms have you sold. To anyone. Any complaints? Any compliments? Any testing...Any...Nevermind.
Except that Mac, can bend the OEM arms with his hands.Well...I did.

Sorry 'bout this too. I do not normally apologize for acts of nature, or, the thoughts I post on-line, but this is an exception.

I felt like I broke my Marauder, and I didn't like that feeling. Pics of that bend are in my gallery. I was just trying to pull out the OEM bushing, didn't mean to hurt it...I wake up every morning at 3:30 AM filled with regret and shame, but I cannot change history. I did it. I spoke about it here. Guess I need better sedatives, get me into HR counseling now, or, set me on fire for my sin.
If in fact if stronger = faster or better?Guess y'all will have to judge that for yourselves, eh? Meanwhiile, bulk does not = more strength, ask any engineer, or, body builder.
If M+Zs' are designed by a racing chassis builder, how come the design does not include an adjustment for pinon angle? 1) Last time, dude...it's "Zack and Mac", and you know this.

You intentionally call us out of name for obvious reasons. Stop it. And stop putzing around with this topic like it's taking candy to the Zoo.

At one time you want us to believe you know more about suspension systems on a heavy car (when you don't know what that term really means), and the rest of the time you want to play us out as if you are a noob and not knowing any better. Knock it off, eh?

2)Once all the "dust" of our research and development came to settle, there was only one adjustment to make, that of a 3 degrees adjustment to the stock Marauder pinion angle. We offered that simplfied adjustment (and specific to a Marauder), but that didn't sit well with members at large because (and like you) most of them (at that time) didn't grasp the engineering behind the R&D we conducted. Like you still do not fully appreciate today.
What control arms did Kenny Brown offer with all the suspension upgrades?None.

None in the first 50 Marauder S editions.

After Zack and I came back to Kenny with our improvement in control arms, he tore into that with his own R&D on it, and later approved them as an option to his Marauder S package.

Sadly (and for other reasons), Kenny removed himself from the sports car playing field shortly thereafter.

Neither Zack nor I can change that, guess we all have to adjust to this change. It's life, and life goes on.
Who is going to step up and test? What is our goal here?Prolly no one. No one will step forward now. Now that this topic has become another punch-fest. Now that you have hammered this topic into another undie bunch.

Our goal?

Well, your goal up until now, has been to hammer me. This seems a reasonable goal...For now. The ultimate goal for members at large, should be to gather and evaluate what 411 has been deposited in the mutual bucket, and decide on one selection, or, another. This is all I ever asked for, a level playing field. Now, it's slap time.

Do you feel better now, Bradley?

Should I?

I do not.

But I feel I want a gigarette...

[MM2004]

So now, the big question is... do you still make them, and if so how much and any pics?[/quote]


How about an install detail with feedback?

http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?t=28904

Mike.

[Bradley G]

Ok Mr. stick to the "Facts".
You call out Rider90, slap him around for a while.
Now I guess it's my turn?
I admited my mistake, that the arms you and Zacary made are longer not shorter by 1/8".
How much misinformation have you posted here?
I never profess to be anything but a car guy.
I still read technical threads, again & again, Cause I simply don't fully understand, all aspects of several topics.(this being one of them)
I never claimed your Arms are "no good" or thier is a problem with them.
Thier was some debate, her due to the shorter version. No?
If it is so painful to discuss this without taking shots, why do you keep comming back?
Don't appoligize about your super human strength, tell us and show us how you bent steel control arms with your bare hands.

I posted in a thread, long before your undies were causing you discomfort,I bent an upper arm in a press (the ones with the locking type bushing)trying to remove the bushing.
No doubt in my mind the M+Z (cold rolled steel.025)arms are superior to the Stamped steel factory ones.

I also suggested not to use this type, if someone wanted to try this mod for themselves.
Heck, I posted I have a little squeek since putting these on.
I also never claimed you had any unhappy customers.
I know of some members that sold or traded off the M+Z arms, for Metcos.
Not really relavent to this discussion.
I also posted that I'm not going to market/sell these Boxed arms, because Chris @ ADTR already does.
If you want to know how many Panther owners have them on thier vehicles currently, I'm sure that information is available.
So what, if no one ever bought them?
That proves nothing.
I made two sets, so far, one for each car I drive.
I was given some take off parts(thanks Shakes_26):thanks: to make a second pair of lowers and the Watts link.
By the By, the car(s) handle, Fantastic!
I was greatfull to Chris @ ATDR for the Idea, of a low cost option/alternative to the other offerings.
Please don't hold this against me! K?:)
Do you have a set to test or no?

[Rider90]

Chris @ ADTR is a great guy. He helped me out with my first panther modifications :beer: It's HIS fault I need 400 RWHP to be happy!!

[Bradley G]

I agree Jason!
I'm blaming the MCM gang, for my habit! Hey Guys!
They're easy targets! :flamer:

Chris @ ADTR is a great guy. He helped me out with my first panther modifications :beer: It's HIS fault I need 400 RWHP to be happy!!

[MM2004]

:popcorn: ...........

[MM03MOK]

All done here.